Metagame NP: RU Stage -1: Message to Oglemi, Nails, and Honko (VENOMOTH STOLEN FROM US))

[Darnell]

But if it's on 1 vs 1 u get WOW next turn, allow me demonstrate

1st turn,
Sableye uses willowisp, lum berry takes care of it while Bar shell smashes.

2nd turn,
Sableye uses WOW again, and Bar gets burned. Dealing 40~50 % would mean that it can live one hit(possibly) and hit it with a foul play or just keep on recovering.

Not a sturdy block, but just say'n that it could work

I think they are discussing more on the topic of people thinking they can bring in Sableye while you Shell Smash to get a burn rather than 1v1, I don't know why the hell you would think of setting up a Shell Smash unless you're hoping for a lucky crit which is complete bs or it is your last Pokemon, in which case you have nothing to do.

EDIT: Snip'd but yeah...^^ agreed

 

[aVocado]

Something to note about Barbaracle is that adamant LO Night Slash has a high chance of OHKOing Cofag with Night Slash, while jolly gets the jump on spme scarfers, but I guess that's not so worth it. Still though, I like the idea of surprising Cofag. Even of Mummy removes Tough Claws, +2 with LO is still plenty enough to sweep late-game.

LO gives barbaracle insane power, but I can see why Lum has its uses. Sableye is an annoyance and with Lum you can set-up with Barba even if Sableye is still around, and it won't stop your sweep.

 

[newfren]

Cofagrigus doesn't have the most reliable of recovery methods, so it shouldn't be too hard to wear it down to the point where barbaracle can go through it. Sableye on the other hand is kind of a bitch to kill.

 

[Mudkip727]

So is discussing "The OP gang"'s ban considered to obvious?
I saw no DIRECT messages about it's banning. Why is RU councils not banning those threats? I mean, though RU pokes now isn't THAT broken, but the UU council banned like what, 20+ Pokemon? Shouldn't we be getting ready on that ban-hammer? I think it's time that the meta should evolve and ban some threats.

But anyways, Am i the only one who thinks that kyurem isn't broken??

 

[Mymble]

So is discussing "The OP gang"'s ban considered to obvious?
I saw no DIRECT messages about it's banning. Why is RU councils not banning those threats? I mean, though RU pokes now isn't THAT broken, but the UU council banned like what, 20+ Pokemon? Shouldn't we be getting ready on that ban-hammer? I think it's time that the meta should evolve and ban some threats.

But anyways, Am i the only one who thinks that kyurem isn't broken??

It has been less than two weeks since the release of RU, the current metagame is seriously underdeveloped to be considering bans yet. Things will stabilise over the time. Counters to the currently "broken" Pokemon may emerge and if they don't then it would be time to consider banning Pokemon.

 

[Kevun]

It has been less than two weeks since the release of RU, the current metagame is seriously underdeveloped to be considering bans yet. Things will stabilise over the time. Counters to the currently "broken" Pokemon may emerge and if they don't then it would be time to consider banning Pokemon.

Exactly, its simply too early to determine bans. However, it is also wise to keep in mind that there almost certainly will be bans, its just that we cannot determine what yet, or to what extent. Almost everything in the tier currently has a hard counter; something is deemed not suitable when something is seen as such a threat that everybody has to run a dedicated counter as it easily deals with the majority of the metagame, or, this pokemon in question has so versatile with different counters to each different set it runs. As I said, there are suspects so far, but we shouldn't assume that anything will be banned for certain since metagames can evolve pretty fast and unpredictably.

 

[doinktonberry]

so for shits and giggles I decided to use a specially defensive Camerupt. I switched it in on a subroost kyurem and surprisingly it took like 33% from its earth power. looking at comprisons for raikou as well and it seems like it could be a decent counter to it too only taking a maximum of 43% from aura sphere.

 

[doinktonberry]

Is Smogon lagging again?

yeah sorry for that. XD

 

[skies]

I just had a very fun match with Golemman on the ladder randomly! In this battle I was testing a rain team and it has been working good for me! I was terrified by Trick Room and I thought it would destroy me, as my team is very fast. On Turn 6 I misclicked and hit Rain Dance instead of Rest, but whatever it's all good. I play really bad in the beginning, and later on in the match (Turn 26) things started getting intense! I won't spoil who won the match because it was a very close game, but I hope you watch it! Luckily for me Thunder hit 3 times and Focus Blast once without Rain, which is major luck on my part u.u!

 

[Based Kakashi]

RU is gonna be so fun, this list looks like it has a lot of really good options in it.

 

[Magikarpz]

One pokemon who is fantastic in RU is vivillon. Its combination of compoundeyes sleep powder, quiver dance, and hurricane can absolutely wreck teams and it hits surprisingly hard for a pokemon as adorable as it is. I personally have been using it in an offensive core with dugtrio to help get rid of steels that resist hurricane and once vivillon has a quiver dance or two under its belt it rips through teams. The stealth rock weakness really does suck in a tier without any really viable defoggers or rapid spinners though. I've been pairing it with a physically defensive togetic (don't knock it until you try it, togetic is REALLY bulky, even with a weakness to stealth rocks) but the huge weakness to stealth rock the two of them have can really be a struggle against HO. Speaking of HO, vivillon HATES HO so much it isn't funny. Being out-sped after a quiver dance and wrecked through a substitute by scarf cincinno is a pain. HO is also really hard for vivillon to set up on because it only has a mediocre 89 base speed.

EDIT: Here is an "OK" replay of vivillon being a boss. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rubeta-109405797

 

[TikiShades]

As far as RU is turning out, there's a lot of surprises in store. Raikou making it down and not Jolteon being a welcome surprise. AV Tangrowth will certainly be a fun wall to run, and I can finally use Banette-Mega where he's viable! Considering that Reuniclus also made it down here as well, I'd almost consider running a Trick Room sweeper set with Banette-Mega, but Trick Room's reliance on using Psychic and Ghost-types makes me wary.

How do you guys think Aromatisse will do here? Do you think it'll be a big support pokemon? Access to screens, a good Wish to pass, Aromatherapy, and Aroma Veil make it really sturdy.
Aromatisse @ Leftovers / Light Clay
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold/Calm Nature
IVs: 14 Spd
- Wish
- Reflect / Moonblast
- Light Screen / Aromatherapy
- Torment / Moonblast

Maybe not so in RU, but there aren't too many Pokemon who would run Poison or Steel moves. Torment allows you to reliably set up screens and wishes. With it, you can switch into Escavalier's Iron Head, then either Torment to earn a free turn of Leftover's recovery or set up Reflect to survive whatever hit they throw at you (not sure what equation to use to calculate the damage range on two Iron Heads in this scenario, but sadly I think its past 50%). You can even play mind games and go for a Wish to heal off the damage, as you'll survive any hit besides another Iron Head. After a Reflect, you're capable of completely walling it.

The same can also be said against Cobalion, though it can't take a +2 Iron Head. It can always switch into a +0 Flash Cannon, and set up Light Screen or Torment before dying, provided. A Moonblast can do around 50% damage to any set, should you choose to run it. Toxicroak, however, is still a huge threat that can set up SD right in its face.

The IV reduction is in case Trick Room gets popular, while still being fast enough to always outspeed Escavalier outside of it.

 

[EonX]

So is discussing "The OP gang"'s ban considered to obvious?
I saw no DIRECT messages about it's banning. Why is RU councils not banning those threats? I mean, though RU pokes now isn't THAT broken, but the UU council banned like what, 20+ Pokemon? Shouldn't we be getting ready on that ban-hammer? I think it's time that the meta should evolve and ban some threats.

But anyways, Am i the only one who thinks that kyurem isn't broken??

I'm just saying this right now, but Molk (RU Leader) and kokoloko (UU Leader) are quite different in how they lead their tiers. Both are generally good at what they do, but they just have different approaches and beliefs in how a tier can and should develop. And if you look at BW, both RU and UU turned out to be pretty fun tiers to play in the end, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Anyways, I had a couple of quality matches with Chesnaught last night and decided to save one of the replays for a couple of reasons:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rubeta-109166395 - So, aside from the ridiculous hax at the end of the match I wanted to use this replay to bring up the potential that a certain playstyle has: Rain. Not many people have discussed it, but I think rain is incredibly potent in RU. Many of the best Rain Dance users are available in RU with some being Uxie, Liepard, Volbeat, and Mesprit. As far as rain abusers go, you've got Raikou, Heliolisk, Tornadus, Toxicroak, Vivillon, Omastar, Kabutops, Ludicolo, and so many more. Also note that Tornadus can double as a Rain Dance user, though it will have to choose between power (Life Orb) and rain duration (Damp Rock) in this case. It should be noted that Uxie, Liepard, and Volbeat each have reliable ways of getting rain sweepers in safely. Uxie can use Yawn+U-turn while Liepard and Volbeat can utilize Prankster Encore+U-turn to get rain sweepers in on a useless support or set-up move so they can begin to wreck havoc.

 

[Eashy]

One pokemon who is fantastic in RU is vivillon. Its combination of compoundeyes sleep powder, quiver dance, and hurricane can absolutely wreck teams and it hits surprisingly hard for a pokemon as adorable as it is. I personally have been using it in an offensive core with dugtrio to help get rid of steels that resist hurricane and once vivillon has a quiver dance or two under its belt it rips through teams. The stealth rock weakness really does suck in a tier without any really viable defoggers or rapid spinners though. I've been pairing it with a physically defensive togetic (don't knock it until you try it, togetic is REALLY bulky, even with a weakness to stealth rocks) but the huge weakness to stealth rock the two of them have can really be a struggle against HO. Speaking of HO, vivillon HATES HO so much it isn't funny. Being out-sped after a quiver dance and wrecked through a substitute by scarf cincinno is a pain. HO is also really hard for vivillon to set up on because it only has a mediocre 89 base speed.

EDIT: Here is an "OK" replay of vivillon being a boss. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rubeta-109405797

I agree that Vivilion is an underrated threat but it is simply outclassed by Venomoth. Venomoth has better bulk, speed, typing and it can Baton Pass boosts to teamates. And there are many mons in RU that can easily take advantage of the boosts. Shaymin, Kyurem, Exploud, Raikou, and basically any Special Attacker wreck with one or two boosts under its belt. But once it is banned, and it should 100% be banned, I think Vivilion will shine more.

 

[Golemman]

I just had a very fun match with Golemman on the ladder randomly! In this battle I was testing a rain team and it has been working good for me! I was terrified by Trick Room and I thought it would destroy me, as my team is very fast. On Turn 6 I misclicked and hit Rain Dance instead of Rest, but whatever it's all good. I play really bad in the beginning, and later on in the match (Turn 26) things started getting intense! I won't spoil who won the match because it was a very close game, but I hope you watch it! Luckily for me Thunder hit 3 times and Focus Blast once without Rain, which is major luck on my part u.u!

Yes that was a great battle :D
I think that rain and Trick room are going to be the two dominant strategies for RU actually. HO has potential butt here are so many tanks and walls down here (Slowking, Cresselia, Cofagrigus, Reuniclus, Regis, Tangrowth, more) that it will struggle.

Anyways, I had a couple of quality matches with Chesnaught last night and decided to save one of the replays for a couple of reasons:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rubeta-109166395 - So, aside from the ridiculous hax at the end of the match I wanted to use this replay to bring up the potential that a certain playstyle has: Rain. Not many people have discussed it, but I think rain is incredibly potent in RU. Many of the best Rain Dance users are available in RU with some being Uxie, Liepard, Volbeat, and Mesprit. As far as rain abusers go, you've got Raikou, Heliolisk, Tornadus, Toxicroak, Vivillon, Omastar, Kabutops, Ludicolo, and so many more. Also note that Tornadus can double as a Rain Dance user, though it will have to choose between power (Life Orb) and rain duration (Damp Rock) in this case. It should be noted that Uxie, Liepard, and Volbeat each have reliable ways of getting rain sweepers in safely. Uxie can use Yawn+U-turn while Liepard and Volbeat can utilize Prankster Encore+U-turn to get rain sweepers in on a useless support or set-up move so they can begin to wreck havoc.

EonX with a good analysis of the many rain a users and setters. I especially believe in Heliolisk, bing able to perform dry skin stalling shenanigans as once did the mighty Toxicroak in Gen5 OU, or LO + Dry skin to heal lost hp, while having all the coverage moves it needs. I think I definitely will be the top choice for an electric type/Thunder abuser on all rain teams for its ability, typing, Strength, movepool (with a special mention to Surf) and high speed.
Has anyone tried sunny day? Shiftry, victreebell, Ivysaur ?.? and a few others who can abuse it r in RU so it could work

 

[Eashy]

Yes that was a great battle :D
I think that rain and Trick room are going to be the two dominant strategies for RU actually. HO has potential butt here are so many tanks and walls down here (Slowking, Cresselia, Cofagrigus, Reuniclus, Regis, Tangrowth, more) that it will struggle.

Has anyone tried sunny day? Shiftry, victreebell, Ivysaur ?.? and a few others who can abuse it r in RU so it could work

Why would anyone use ivysaur lol. Never even seen that in NU. Specs Typholsion in the sun=gg

 

[Golemman]

Why would anyone use ivysaur lol. Never even seen that in NU. Specs Typholsion in the sun=gg

Ivysaur was pretty much for lols, note the confused face ?.? that follows. He does have similar qualities to gen5 Venusaur though, who was really good. Typhlosion will be awesome in RU regardless, with sun support he will be an absolute monster!

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse in Sun: 378-445 (93.1 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
One of the tiers top specially defensive supporter. getting. creamed.

 

[EonX]

@Golemman... and TheSwagger for that matter: Both of you are forgetting about Delphox. STAB Psyshock is really cool to get around special walls that can possibly stall out a turn or two of Sun otherwise. Delphox just really outclasses Typhlosion in most aspects as it is slightly faster and has a very useful secondary STAB move to utilize for when Sun isn't up, thus lessening the reliance on Sun to keep Solar Beam.

As for Sun teams, they still have quite a few of their favorite mons in RU. Uxie, Whimsicott, and Liepard all set Sun fairly well, and there's stuff like Moltres, Delphox, Victreebel, and Shiftry to abuse the Sun with. However, unlike Rain teams, Sun teams have a few more issues with entry hazards and may have to use a team slot to combat this (though I guess Xatu is an ok sun setter since it also has Heat Wave)

On the subject of Heliolisk, I honestly forgot about it having access to Surf (not sure how...) Definitely going to be something I try out over Raikou shortly as Surf is a nice move for it anyway since it donks Rhyperior.

 

[Based Kakashi]

I'm not sure if Marowak has been mentioned yet, but since this list seems to be so perfectly geared towards Trick Room teams, here's a Marowak set that utilizes her very well. See, Marowak is slower than tortoise shit, so she naturally lends herself Trick Room teams. That, plus Marowak's Thick Club (watch out for Knock Offs), the Rock Head-Double-Edge combo and 110 base Defense stat makes her a very hard hitter that can take a hit or two herself.

Here's the set I've used.

Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Def (This EV spread gives Marowak 516 Attack holy orphan shit)
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Knock Off
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

 

[EonX]

Based Kakashi , Marowak is definitely an intriguing mon under Trick Room, but why not use Brave to enhance that Attack stat even more? Is there some sort of hit that Relaxed lets it survive that it wouldn't otherwise stand up to? If not, I would just use Brave to drive your damage output that much higher as you really shouldn't be taking that many hits unless you simply have to. Marowak has base 110 Defense, sure, but its HP stat and subpar defensive typing can undermine this at times.

 

[Eashy]

Marowak under Trick Room and Trick room in general can really devastate offensive teams (if you can get Trick Room up). However, against more balanced teams I find Marowak underwhelming. It just does not do enough to physically defensive walls.
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 218-258 (40.8 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 128-151 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 214-252 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And in my experience, the meta is leaning to a balanced/stall play style so most teams have something to stop Marowak.

 

[Magikarpz]

I agree that Vivilion is an underrated threat but it is simply outclassed by Venomoth. Venomoth has better bulk, speed, typing and it can Baton Pass boosts to teamates. And there are many mons in RU that can easily take advantage of the boosts. Shaymin, Kyurem, Exploud, Raikou, and basically any Special Attacker wreck with one or two boosts under its belt. But once it is banned, and it should 100% be banned, I think Vivilion will shine more.

There are two things vivillon has over venomoth, the first is that it is essentially the fastest user of spore (97.5% accurate sleep powder) and hurricane. While I do accept that venomoth has many more uses than vivillon (basically same spa/speed but has tinted lens bug buzz, usable bulk, and the obvious baton pass) I don't think vivillon is entirely outclassed.

 

[Mudkip727]

I'm not sure if Marowak has been mentioned yet, but since this list seems to be so perfectly geared towards Trick Room teams, here's a Marowak set that utilizes her very well. See, Marowak is slower than tortoise shit, so she naturally lends herself Trick Room teams. That, plus Marowak's Thick Club (watch out for Knock Offs), the Rock Head-Double-Edge combo and 110 base Defense stat makes her a very hard hitter that can take a hit or two herself.

Here's the set I've used.

Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Def (This EV spread gives Marowak 516 Attack holy orphan shit)
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Knock Off
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

With plus attack nature, it's attack actually reaches 586, which is very impressive. I actually quite like marowak. Many people seems to not know about thick club and setup on this guy. It's pretty fun to watch them get ohkod from this guy.

I mon that I think is the anti-meta poke of this meta is hitmonlee
Hitmonlee @ Normal Gem
Ability:Unburden
EVs : 252 Atk / (put in whatever nunber u would like to put in to overcome some threats) Spd / (leftovers) HP
Adamant Nature
-Fake Out
-High Jump Kick
-Stone Edge
-Knock Off

This guy shuts off so many pokemon. Fake Out breaks focus sash and activates unburden, Knock off items from the likes of AV users and Eviolite users and
Ohko Azelf, 2hko banette on the switch. HJK hits like a truck (195 dammage, so it's almost the same as a super effective stone edge), stone edge takes care of tornados, moltres, vivilion and levanny.

 

[Based Kakashi]

Based Kakashi , Marowak is definitely an intriguing mon under Trick Room, but why not use Brave to enhance that Attack stat even more? Is there some sort of hit that Relaxed lets it survive that it wouldn't otherwise stand up to? If not, I would just use Brave to drive your damage output that much higher as you really shouldn't be taking that many hits unless you simply have to. Marowak has base 110 Defense, sure, but its HP stat and subpar defensive typing can undermine this at times.

I'm not sure, I guess I just reflexively did it under the pretense of giving it more bulk, but Brave would work just as well, if not better, I guess.

 

[Based Kakashi]

With plus attack nature, it's attack actually reaches 586, which is very impressive. I actually quite like marowak. Many people seems to not know about thick club and setup on this guy. It's pretty fun to watch them get ohkod from this guy.

I mon that I think is the anti-meta poke of this meta is hitmonlee
Hitmonlee @ Normal Gem
Ability:Unburden
EVs : 252 Atk / (put in whatever nunber u would like to put in to overcome some threats) Spd / (leftovers) HP
Adamant Nature
-Fake Out
-High Jump Kick
-Stone Edge
-Knock Off

This guy shuts off so many pokemon. Fake Out breaks focus sash and activates unburden, Knock off items from the likes of AV users and Eviolite users and
Ohko Azelf, 2hko banette on the switch. HJK hits like a truck (195 dammage, so it's almost the same as a super effective stone edge), stone edge takes care of tornados, moltres, vivilion and levanny.

This set looks fantastic, I'm definitely gonna be trying it out at some point. Theres a whole list of pokes to mess with, but this is high up on it, and I like the set a lot.