Metagame NP: RU Stage -1: Message to Oglemi, Nails, and Honko (VENOMOTH STOLEN FROM US))

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Gennosuke Fujiki said:
Guess what hard counter meowstic-m... liepard ;^]

No, seriously though, I've advocated Liepard a lot, I know, but god damn for good reasons. It's really good in the current meta as a sableye substitute, being able to disrupt so many pokemon from doing what they want to.

I'd say more and post some replays, but I'm on my phone so xheck my replays in the RMT in my signature. They'll show you a thing or two (granted, the opponents were mediocre but still.) Without bragging intended, liepard is usually the one thing that changes the entire game even amongst 1500s (where I am :^) bragging :^))
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Yeah, I feel Liepard is kinda underrated and one of the Pokemon that really likes Sableye not being around. While both it and Meowstic-M have Thunder Wave, Liepard has a different typing, access to Encore to shut down setup sweepers, and Foul Play / Knock Off to provide some extra utility offensively, something Meowstic-M has a hard time doing. While I feel Meostic-M is better as the meta stands right now due to the high supply of Fighting-types, I'm not just going to ignore the fact Liepard provides some great utility in its own right. Let's also not forget Liepard can perform as a weather supporter as well thanks to Encore + U-turn providing almost guaranteed setup opportunities.

Molk , while I personally have yet to use Gourgeist (either size) I will admit it has some nice uses. Super size has really good bulk and a decent Attack stat to hit back with, making it somewhat difficult to setup on. The small size makes for a very solid SubSeed user thanks to the higher Speed, and it still has the same Defense to soak up some hits. The best part is that it is quite difficult to determine the size in Team Preview (to my knowledge, it will not tell you the size of an opposing Gourgeist on Team Preview), thus making it kinda hard to formulate a game plan as you're going to need something fast for the Small size, but you'll need more power to get past the Super size. Definitely a mon worth considering as it's one of the few viable bulky Ghosts in the tier atm (Cofag is solid and Dusclops is kinda meh, especially outside of full stall)

gamer boy , Meowstic is tiered as one Pokemon. If the male version has enough usage to be RU, then the female version won't be allowed in NU as they are the same species (as in, same dex #, just like Megas); just have different playstyles. As for Wigglytuff, it has some interesting uses. It's hard to recommend it over Milotic strictly as a Competitive user, but if you need the services of another Water-type, but still want a Competitive user for offensive teams, then I would use Wigglytuff way before Meowstic-F. Like Milotic, it isn't fully in need of the Competitive boost since she can be more of a bulky attacker when she can't get a Competitive boost, unlike Meowstic-F which fully needs the Competitive boost to keep from being outclassed by virtually any other Psychic-type in the tier.
 
>Complains about Kyurem dominating the tier
>Plays GSCOU where every team has Snorlax

pls.[/quote]

Snorlax makes several playstyles viable, which is something completely different, and that's why it's not banned. It's healthy for the metagame.

RU on the other hand is extremely one-dimensional. Special-spam, is by far the best playstyle, and it absolutely dominates. Now, with Azelf and Kyurem gone, we might see some other stuff being more viable. I'd love to see Raikou suspected too, but I can live with this.
 
Darkai34 said:
I forgot to mention the abillity, but yeah, both are technically useless, unless you run a sun team or come across another one.
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Still, it's better to use the situational one over the completely useless one if you're going the AV route at least, which I don't recommend on a mon like Exeggutor since it has a fuckton of weaknesses (7 iirc) and no way to recover HP (unlike Tangrowth with Regen and maybe Giga Drain)

MoxieInfinite , I don't feel like it's one dimmensional atm. Even when shit like Kyurem and Azelf were in the tier, there were plenty of strong physical hitters (Barbaracle, Hitmonlee, Gallade, and Rhyperior to name a few) and stall was (still is) a thing with powerful defensive forces like Cresselia, Registeel, and Slowking around to handle numerous attack types. While I don't feel RU is balanced atm (SmashPass is broke af while stuff like Raikou, Esca, and Shaymin are questionable) it certainly isn't one dimmensional. It's not as fun as BW was. But it isn't supposed to be right now. We're still in beta stage right now, so give it some time. If it's anything like BW was, it'll pan out soon enough, maybe even sooner than you think as many believe that the RU tier was most fun toward the mid-late stages of BW1.
 
The lack of competent walls with recovery in this meta makes defensive play infuriatingly hax dependent. The likes of Bronzong, Tangrowth, Aromatisse, and Spiritomb all live and die by misses and paralysis- thank the lack of decent recovery moves and overuse of paralysis/inaccurate attack moves in the RU tier for most of this. Walls often only get one or two shots at stopping offensive threats like Druddigon or Durant before they overwhelm a team, and even then bad prediction on the switchin will lead to devastating punishes from the likes of Knock Off or another coverage move that is impossible to easily recover from. The banning of Sableye only made this worse because it means that monstrous sweepers like Sharpedo have a much easier time mindlessly coming in on whatever the hell they want and launching their Life Orb boosted attack moves.

Basically, this leads to a metagame where reliable counters to a good chunk of offensive threats don't exist, where players can reliably bank on dumb luck over intelligent decision making in breaking through walls, and attempting to set up defensively is an incredibly risky endeavor (this kind of bullshit happens ALL THE TIME). The most effective strategy seem to be fast, hard hitting hyperoffensive teams with a ton of coverage on every Pokemon that are happy to sack teammates left and right just to maintain a Pokemon advantage.
 
I feel like Meowstic-F isn't that effective as a Competitive user, it just has so much against it. Milotic has better bulk and reliable recovery, Wigglytuff has better bulk and coverage. Neither of them mind Sticky Web too badly as they aren't TOO reliant on their Speed to work. Meowstic-F lacks high base power moves, is very reliant on its Speed, and is generally not too great if Competitve doesn't activate. It does beat Golbat (though it likely won't Defog haphazardly with Meowstic-F around) and isn't too afraid of Gligar, but it loses to Skuntank in terms of common Defog users (it can beat Togetic with either Calm Mind boosting or Tricking a Specs I guess). A Calm Mind set isn't bulky enough to set up many boosts, and is just outclassed most of the time if it doesn't get a Competitive boost; same iwth a Specs set, though the higher initial power makes it more useful in most battles without a Competitive boost. But after a few disappointing battles with Competitve, I realized how many more situations I preferred to have had Meowstic-F's other useful ability: Infiltrator. I would still prefer Meowstic-M though...

I've been playing around with a Choice Specs Infiltrator Meowstic-F, and I must say it isn't too bad. It isn't spectacularly strong of course, but being able to break through Subs and screens (can hit Dual Screens Meowstic-M hard as well) has more general use in the current metagame. I also like having the utility of a Trick that goes through Substitutes. What does everyone think about Infiltrator Meowstic-F over Competitive (mind you, neither are spectacular regardless)?
 
WhiteDMist said:
I feel like Meowstic-F isn't that effective as a Competitive user, it just has so much against it. Milotic has better bulk and reliable recovery, Wigglytuff has better bulk and coverage. Neither of them mind Sticky Web too badly as they aren't TOO reliant on their Speed to work. Meowstic-F lacks high base power moves, is very reliant on its Speed, and is generally not too great if Competitve doesn't activate. It does beat Golbat (though it likely won't Defog haphazardly with Meowstic-F around) and isn't too afraid of Gligar, but it loses to Skuntank in terms of common Defog users (it can beat Togetic with either Calm Mind boosting or Tricking a Specs I guess). A Calm Mind set isn't bulky enough to set up many boosts, and is just outclassed most of the time if it doesn't get a Competitive boost; same iwth a Specs set, though the higher initial power makes it more useful in most battles without a Competitive boost. But after a few disappointing battles with Competitve, I realized how many more situations I preferred to have had Meowstic-F's other useful ability: Infiltrator. I would still prefer Meowstic-M though... (ha, thought I'd miss this?)

I've been playing around with a Choice Specs Infiltrator Meowstic-F, and I must say it isn't too bad. It isn't spectacularly strong of course, but being able to break through Subs and screens (can hit Dual Screens Meowstic-M hard as well) has more general use in the current metagame. I also like having the utility of a Trick that goes through Substitutes. What does everyone think about Infiltrator Meowstic-F over Competitive (mind you, neither are spectacular regardless)?
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Quite frankly, Meowstic-F as an offensive Psychic is almost eclipsed by Kadabra, who has similiar coverage (bar Thunderbolt, but Kadab still has Energy Ball), is marginally faster, but a shitton more powerful. As an example, Life Orb Kadabra outdamages Specs Meowstic. Magic Guard is far less situational and much more useful than either of Meowstic-F's abilities, I almost feel like people have to try too hard just to make Meowstic-F not wholly inferior to Kadabra.
 
WhiteDMist said:
I feel like Meowstic-F isn't that effective as a Competitive user, it just has so much against it. Milotic has better bulk and reliable recovery, Wigglytuff has better bulk and coverage. Neither of them mind Sticky Web too badly as they aren't TOO reliant on their Speed to work. Meowstic-F lacks high base power moves, is very reliant on its Speed, and is generally not too great if Competitve doesn't activate. It does beat Golbat (though it likely won't Defog haphazardly with Meowstic-F around) and isn't too afraid of Gligar, but it loses to Skuntank in terms of common Defog users (it can beat Togetic with either Calm Mind boosting or Tricking a Specs I guess). A Calm Mind set isn't bulky enough to set up many boosts, and is just outclassed most of the time if it doesn't get a Competitive boost; same iwth a Specs set, though the higher initial power makes it more useful in most battles without a Competitive boost. But after a few disappointing battles with Competitve, I realized how many more situations I preferred to have had Meowstic-F's other useful ability: Infiltrator. I would still prefer Meowstic-M though...

I've been playing around with a Choice Specs Infiltrator Meowstic-F, and I must say it isn't too bad. It isn't spectacularly strong of course, but being able to break through Subs and screens (can hit Dual Screens Meowstic-M hard as well) has more general use in the current metagame. I also like having the utility of a Trick that goes through Substitutes. What does everyone think about Infiltrator Meowstic-F over Competitive (mind you, neither are spectacular regardless)?
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i prefer banded spiritomb as an infiltrator mon, it has far better bulk, priority to mitigate its speed issues and is notable for beating delphox one on one quite reliably
 
Punchshroom said:
Quite frankly, Meowstic-F as an offensive Psychic is almost eclipsed by Kadabra, who has similiar coverage (bar Thunderbolt, but Kadab still has Energy Ball), is marginally faster, but a shitton more powerful. As an example, Life Orb Kadabra outdamages Specs Meowstic. Magic Guard is far less situational and much more useful than either of Meowstic-F's abilities, I almost feel like people have to try too hard just to make Meowstic-F not wholly inferior to Kadabra.
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True, no matter what Meowstic-F is just outclassed in all its roles. Encore Kadabra does everything it wants to do better, Delphox is just a better attacker in general, Cresselia/Uxie/Mesprit are longer lasting CM users, etc. I just think that Infiltrator at least gives it better overall use and a slight niche that isn't as situational as Competitive.

mallpal said:
i prefer banded spiritomb as an infiltrator mon, it has far better bulk, priority to mitigate its speed issues and is notable for beating delphox one on one quite reliably
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As for Infiltrator Spiritomb, it uses the ability much more effectively though it does lack Speed. I wouldn't say Meowstic loses instantly to Delphox, as Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball still hurts Delphox. I think the biggest difference is the faster Trick, though Spiritomb just has better offensive utility and/or support capabilities overall. I guess that the best Meowstic-F can do isn't a whole lot at all.

Speaking about Speed, what are some notable Speeds to hit in this metagame? For slow offensive mons, i generally aim to outspeed no Spe Alomomoloa at the least. I like beating minimum base 85s with the more moderate Speed Pokes, and the minimum offensive Speed to aim for seems to be base 90. Speed can be adjusted depending on your team's needs, but I do like thinking about what Speeds are really critical for success. Thoughts?
 
Vryheid said:
The lack of competent walls with recovery in this meta makes defensive play infuriatingly hax dependent. The likes of Bronzong, Tangrowth, Aromatisse, and Spiritomb all live and die by misses and paralysis- thank the lack of decent recovery moves and overuse of paralysis/inaccurate attack moves in the RU tier for most of this. Walls often only get one or two shots at stopping offensive threats like Druddigon or Durant before they overwhelm a team, and even then bad prediction on the switchin will lead to devastating punishes from the likes of Knock Off or another coverage move that is impossible to easily recover from. The banning of Sableye only made this worse because it means that monstrous sweepers like Sharpedo have a much easier time mindlessly coming in on whatever the hell they want and launching their Life Orb boosted attack moves.

Basically, this leads to a metagame where reliable counters to a good chunk of offensive threats don't exist, where players can reliably bank on dumb luck over intelligent decision making in breaking through walls, and attempting to set up defensively is an incredibly risky endeavor (this kind of bullshit happens ALL THE TIME). The most effective strategy seem to be fast, hard hitting hyperoffensive teams with a ton of coverage on every Pokemon that are happy to sack teammates left and right just to maintain a Pokemon advantage.
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Honestly i kinda disagree with this, i really think that there are plenty of competent defensive pokemon that are capable of consistently recovering hp in the current tier, and i don't really understand where the sentiment that there aren't any comes from. In fact, two of the pokemon you mentioned (Aromatisse and ESPECIALLY Tangrowth) actually do have recovery options, very good ones in fact. Aromatisse can heal itself and its teammates with Wish, and while that isn't exactly instant, its still enough to get by imo, meanwhile Tangrowth has access to all of Synthesis, Leech Seed, and even Regenerator for goodness sake, if Tangrowth doesn't have any recovery options, i don't know what does. Anyways, looking down the list of good defensive pokemon, there's a pretty solid amoount of good Pokemon that can recover in some way, examples of which i'll post below.

Milotic (recover)
Slowking (regenerator and slack off)
Alomomola (regenerator and HUGE wish)
Aromatisse (wish)
Amoonguss (regenerator)
Tangrowth (regenerator, leech seed, synthesis)
Gastrodon (recover)
Jellicent (recover)
Gligar (roost)
Cresselia (moonlight)
Roselia (synthesis and natural cure+rest)
Lickilicky (BIG wish)
Togetic (no h8 plz this thing is bulky af and defogs) (roost)

and i'm pretty sure that's not all of them

Now for the Pokemon that admittedly don't have recovery: if you have to use these pokemon to check and counter certain threats and are playing defensively, why AREN'T you trying to support these pokemon with say, wish? There are at least three good wishpassers that i can think of off the top of my head in RU that don't just wishpass, but do it damn well while still holding off a variety of scary Pokemon (Alomomola, Aromatisse, Lickilicky). Alomomola in particular stands out not only because of its Tangrowth level physical bulk, but because it has the absolute largest Wish available in RU, AND has regenerator to keep itself healthy without passing Wishes to itself, making it exceptionally sturdy and making sure it can focus less on healing itself and more on healing its teammates.

All in all, imo there are plenty of Pokemon in this tier that are both competent defensive Pokemon, and have reliable recovery, and even for the ones that don't, why are you just letting your defensive pokemon that you rely on take all these hits without wishpassing to them or something? especially when there are some pretty good Pokemon with Wish in the tier.
 
gamer boy , Meowstic is tiered as one Pokemon. If the male version has enough usage to be RU, then the female version won't be allowed in NU as they are the same species (as in, same dex #, just like Megas); just have different playstyles. As for Wigglytuff, it has some interesting uses. It's hard to recommend it over Milotic strictly as a Competitive user, but if you need the services of another Water-type, but still want a Competitive user for offensive teams, then I would use Wigglytuff way before Meowstic-F. Like Milotic, it isn't fully in need of the Competitive boost since she can be more of a bulky attacker when she can't get a Competitive boost, unlike Meowstic-F which fully needs the Competitive boost to keep from being outclassed by virtually any other Psychic-type in the tier.
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Rotom, Deoxys and Shaymin formes are tiered differently even if they share the same
Dex number so it is possible that Meowstick formes will be treated like different pokemons as they have different roles and abilities.
 
Gennosuke Fujiki said:
Yup, I agree. The problem is that any SmashPass teams assrapes stall.

pls ban
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As a stall player I'd like to point this out as quite the lie. So little people have experimented with full stall in this metagame it's honestly sad. I've been using my own variant of full stall rn:
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Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Psychic

Aromatisse @ Leftovers
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Moonblast
- Aromatherapy / Refresh
- Protect

Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Thunder Wave

Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Haze
- Pain Split

Tangrowth @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Relaxed Nature
- Stun Spore
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Giga Drain

Kabutops @ Leftovers
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP / 244 SDef / 12 Atk
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Rapid Spin
- Aqua Jet
Alright first, let me get into some of the oddities of this team from standard stall
  • Registeel > Escavalier on this team- So, basically, this is all based off of the RY metagame adapting by heavily fire spamming in order to easily rid of escava. It also beats modest specs scrappyburst exploud w/ fire blast.
  • SpinKabutops > Defogger This is in order to beat defiant users like Tornadus / Braviary and stuff. Really in general with Wish + Aromatherapy + Rapid Spin I beat heavy spikes and tspikes teams very easily which threaten stall.
  • HazeCofag In order to beat set up sweepers n shit. I don't remember why I'm max defense instead of sdef, I think it's to beat stuff like Combusken? idfk anymore, whatever the reason was, must have been important.
  • other stuff cause I'm Oiawesome
Overall this team managers to beat lots of standard threats with little to no trouble in order to effectively stall in the current standard RU metagame, never lost to smash pass or w/e.
 
OiawesomeDG said:
As a stall player I'd like to point this out as quite the lie. So little people have experimented with full stall in this metagame it's honestly sad. I've been using my own variant of full stall rn:
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Alright first, let me get into some of the oddities of this team from standard stall
  • Registeel > Escavalier on this team- So, basically, this is all based off of the RY metagame adapting by heavily fire spamming in order to easily rid of escava. It also beats modest specs scrappyburst exploud w/ fire blast.
  • SpinKabutops > Defogger This is in order to beat defiant users like Tornadus / Braviary and stuff. Really in general with Wish + Aromatherapy + Rapid Spin I beat heavy spikes and tspikes teams very easily which threaten stall.
  • HazeCofag In order to beat set up sweepers n shit. I don't remember why I'm max defense instead of sdef, I think it's to beat stuff like Combusken? idfk anymore, whatever the reason was, must have been important.
  • other stuff cause I'm Oiawesome
Overall this team managers to beat lots of standard threats with little to no trouble in order to effectively stall in the current standard RU metagame, never lost to smash pass or w/e.
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How does it handle +2+2+2 Exploud?
 
Gennosuke Fujiki said:
How does it handle +2+2+2 Exploud?
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lmao your acting like any smash passer can effectively set up between Tangrowth, Stone Edge Kabutops, and Haze on Cofag, they smash, I switch into cofag, they pass I haze, end of story. It's easier to explain to you through practice than on paper, so I encourage you to try this team to any stallers out there.

edit: no condescending-ness meant to non stall players or anything
 
OiawesomeDG said:
lmao your acting like any smash passer can effectively set up between Tangrowth, Stone Edge Kabutops, and Haze on Cofag, they smash, I switch into cofag, they pass I haze, end of story. It's easier to explain to you through practice than on paper, so I encourage you to try this team to any stallers out there.

edit: no condescending-ness meant to non stall players or anything
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I'm just asking that, what if it does manage to get the pass off. What do you do? IE Dark Void Smeargle can claim the Pass where you switch in Tangrowth expecting a Spore or sumsshit.

Also, I prefer Quick stall to regular stall anyways lol
 
If dark void smeargle hits tangrowth (I personally miss the first dark void of every match) you just switch in cofagrigus on the shell smash and haze when they baton pass.
 
Billtodamax said:
If dark void smeargle hits tangrowth (I personally miss the first dark void of every match) you just switch in cofagrigus on the shell smash and haze when they baton pass.
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Regularily, you ss first and then sleep an opponent to eaze the pass. Given that it is a stallteam, it will usually not hit as hard and shite, meaning the smeargle can find several setup chances (in theory!) And mons like aromatisse are known for running wishtect+status removal, making it setup foddet or something.

but ye, ss first spore/void afterwards
 
MoxieInfinite said:
How well does this thing do? I tried it on stall in the beginning of the tier, but I felt it never did anything.
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Well, if you don't have it, Liepard
:^)
will fuck around with your team. A lot.

Aromatisse is a pretty good cleric on most teams. It's a bit like RU's Florges or Sylveon. Really, Fairy types really are one dimensional, eh?
 
Arikado said:
Not necessarily. Specs Florges (and Sylveon) hit -hard- and so does Mega Gardevoir. They're not as one-dimensional as you think. :p
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Well, I wanted to say "not really", but I didn't want to. I mean, Azumarill contradicts it.
It's just that the special wall kind basically does the exact same thing.
 
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