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And we have arrived. With the voting of Nidoqueen to not be booted out of RU, there remains no more suspects to test; so, in other words, RU is balanced.
Until a time comes that it appears something may be broken through either tier shifts or the release of the last few remaining Dream World abilities, there will be no further suspect tests until then.
For now, enjoy your balanced tier~
Be sure to use this thread to discuss current metagame trends and anything else RU that doesn't already belong in one of the threads in the forum.
So now that the suspect round is over i think its time for me to post some underrated sets, right? Alrightly, lets go with one thats been amazing since BW1 but is still only rarely used even today!
SubCM uxie is one of the biggest, albiet rarest threats in RU imo, while 75 Special Attack might not look like much, the extra Special Attack investment combined with uxie's access to Calm Mind and amazing 75/130/130 defenses make Uxie perfectly capable of dominating almost any team if given the chance. Thanks to Uxie's great bulk and nice base 95 Speed stat, Uxie can set up a substitute on the vast majority of defensive Pokemon available (and it can set up on a few offensive Pokemon too with proper play!). Given Uxie's bulk and speed, its relatively easily to get multiple Calm Mind boosts before the opponent can react, making the pixie that much harder to take down. To make matters worse for the opponent, Uxie isnt exactly the easiest thing to revenge kill, taking little from the majority of the common priority moves in the tier, while being able to play around Sucker Punch with Substitute. None of the common Choice Scarf Pokemon can break through Uxie either, especially with the possible threat of substitute blocking their trick or imposter. So once Uxie grabs any sort of momentum, it will be incredibly hard to stop, and its most certainly a threat to take into consideration when building a team.
also queen stayed ru but it'll move up to UU in two months anyway woo~
I have used that Uxie set and had alot of success with it, even though Uxie only has a mediocre Special Attack it has insane bulk at just +1 and has the ability to outright sweep alot of teams. I have been seeing alot more Slowking + Tangrowth cores on the ladder at the moment which this set really shits on as long as you don't switch it into a status move. Steelix really shuts this set down though if it has Roar so I would suggest pairing it with something like Druddigon who can wear Steelix down and can destroy any special wall in Uxie's way.
Despite dropping to RU quite a while ago, quite a few top UU players think Nidoqueen is an excellent Pokemon in the UU tier, and some of them have even said that they think queen is better than king in the current metagame because the Speed doesnt matter nearly as much as the bulk Nidoqueen provides, Nidoqueen's been approaching UU range for a few months, but never quite made it above 3.41%. With the new weighted stats taken into account, Nidoqueen is used enough by top players to get a small usage boost, just enough to push it into UU range. If this holds out we might end up losing Nidoqueen to UU players anyway despite the results of the vote :o.
yea i really like that uxie set. its surprisingly easy to wear down its checks with hazards + light hits, although i prefer more bulk on it since its usually my primary nidoqueen check, and it lets you make bulkier subs to get more cms in. it was, along with bulky sd roost scyther, responsible for most of my wins when i was first getting into the tier
Despite dropping to RU quite a while ago, quite a few top UU players think Nidoqueen is an excellent Pokemon in the UU tier, and some of them have even said that they think queen is better than king in the current metagame because the Speed doesnt matter nearly as much as the bulk Nidoqueen provides, Nidoqueen's been approaching UU range for a few months, but never quite made it above 3.41%. With the new weighted stats taken into account, Nidoqueen is used enough by top players to get a small usage boost, just enough to push it into UU range. If this holds out we might end up losing Nidoqueen to UU players anyway despite the results of the vote :o.
Yeah, Nidoqueen is underrated and better than King in the current UU meta, and people have come to realize that, and thus Queen is most likely leaving us next tier shift. It's also somehow, as I had noticed, keeping up the trend that we always eventually lose our #1 used Pokemon to UU in a tier shift (Blastoise, Claydol, Cofagrigus, and now Nidoqueen will soon leave us)
Anyways, here's a set that I personally like in RU, and that I think is highly underrated.
Gardevoir is arguably one of the most underrated threats in RU. This set in particular excels. It's a great Nidoqueen check, outspeeding and hitting it with Psychic. It also traces Sheer Force, so it hits so damn hard it's not even funny. It also has Focus Blast to deal with Cryogonal and Absol, which is also pretty nice, as well as Shadow Ball to hurt opposing bulky Psychics as well as Gallade. T-bolt is...Tbolt. Hits Gatr and Tops, and such. Its 80 Speed stat is decent enough to outspeed some threats like Absol and Nidoqueen. Overall, once this thing comes in on the right thing, it's gonna wreck you a new one, so yeah. I really like using this set and find it to be pretty damn awesome.
LO gard is a monster. I personally like taunt on it as it lets you truck stall. HP fire is cool for escav too. The best part about gard is you have 5-6 viable moves and you don't miss the ones you drop much because in most situations you can still hit really hard with psychic. There's the classic trace combos like switching into clefable toxics, lanturn volt switches, poliwrath scalds, manectric tbolts, regenerator mons, magneton... it's bulky enough to live what it wants to live and trace fits its role perfectly (nuking random crap and breaking cores). 125 SpA is godly when fully invested.
Yeah Gardevoir's a pretty cool Pokemon, ive used her quite a bit myself and ive gotta say she's excellent in the current metagame, especially with Nidoqueen running around. The great thing about Gardevoir is the sheer amount of sets she can run thanks to her incredible movepool, he has almost every relevant support move in the game, and has an absolutely excellent offensive movepool too, which is further bolstered by Trace copying Sheer Force if she comes in on queen, which can quickly turn the tables of almost any match. I personally use a utility move over Shadow Ball in Gardevoir's final moveslot, given the fact that she has so damn many. Destiny Bond is a great option in the last moveslot to let gardevoir get past Spiritomb/Absol mindgames, as she can at the very least take down the trapper with her if need be, and in Absol's case, use destiny bond to deter Sucker Punch, making it easier for gardevoir to simply outspeed and KO while they try to preserve their Absol, it also makes Gardevoir quite deadly when paired with subCM uxie, as she can lure in most of Uxie's checks and take them down with destiny bond, clearing the way for a Uxie sweep. Healing Wish is another cool option on Gardevoir, when Gardevoir's done for and she doesnt have any other purpose other than death fodder, she can sacrifice herself to fully heal a teammate, lets say, Lilligant, for a devastating late game sweep as Lilligant's checks should be weakened/dead by the time Gardevoir ends up using Healing Wish.
As i mentioned before, Gardevoir can run multiple sets thanks to her really expansive movepool. Ive had success with Life Orb, Choice, Dual Screens, and even a Specially defensive Gardevoir with wish! So my question is, what Gardevoir set do you use and why?
I tested Gardevoir about a month ago and found it to be too frail and slow to be of much use - especially when most of its threats are physical and it has an abysmal Defence stat. I was using a set which I think was the one mentioned before by ScraftyIsTheBest, with Timid. Sometimes it got a KO, sometimes the opposing physical attacker switched in and OHKO'd it. IMO, Gallade is far better and if you want a special Psychic attacker stick with Sigilyph. What's that? You actively want a slow one for a TR team? Beheeyem then.
One Pokemon I have been using for a few months now and found to be extremely useful is what I refer to as "Huntile", aka Special Unburden Sceptile. I'm using this set at the moment IIRC:
[pimg]254[/pimg]
Sceptile @ Grass Gem
Ability: Unburden
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
-Giga Drain
-Focus Blast
-Hidden Power Rock
-Substitute
I'm using it with a Volbeat lead that sets up with Tail Glow + BP about 75% of the time (thanks to the abundance of setup leads and nobody knowing what Volbeat does), with a recipient choice of Sceptile, Cryogonal, or (defensive) Tangrowth.
Once it gets going, if the opponent has switched out on the Baton Pass turn, then Sceptile goes in right away with the Giga Drain to make it faster than any Pokemon you care to mention. If it's defensive, it Substitutes and then starts attacking. When it sets up, it takes out 2-3 Pokemon before the opponent knows what's going on. Its main weakness seems to be Focus Blast's accuracy, which has made it get KO'd by haxy Druddigon users on multiple occasions.
This isn't theorymon, it actually works, and has done for some time now.
Yes, Gardevoir is physically frail... that's why I wouldn't recommend leaving it in on physical attacks. Gallade is a completely different Pokemon, and has the same physical bulk as Gardevoir anyway. Trace really is a godsend of an ability and allows Gardevoir far, far more switchin opportunities than it's pure Psychic-typing would suggest, of which Nails has already given enough examples. One of the coolest things about Gardevoir is her massive movepool that allows you to tweak it according to need, and what your other teammates can already cover. If you're looking for an Escavalier lure, just slap Hidden Power Fire on it! Or if you so wish, Destiny Bond can make sure that you're guaranteed to take down not only Escavalier but also other prominent threats such as Absol, at the cost of your life obviously. With Escavalier gone, Pokemon such as Klinklang have just lost another counter and have a far greater chance to sweep. Molk also made an excellent point about pairing Gardevoir up with another Psychic-type that is beaten by Pursuit users: this is a tried and true strategy in NU, where the premier trapper is Skuntank, but seeing as both Absol and Spiritomb are also slower than Gardevoir, the strategy functions more or less identically in this tier as well.
"Huntile" may be an original set but I'm doubting in its effectiveness. One, you said that you're relying on Volbeat to set it up, but it doesn't help that Volbeat is immensely predictable (everyone knows what Volbeat does ._. and it's obvious from Team Preview if it's setting up Rain Dance for a Swift Swim team or Tail Glow for obvious special sweepers). Your Baton Pass recipients also don't seems very ideal, as Sceptile and Tangrowth share Fire- and Flying-type weaknesses with Volbeat, and Cryogonal shares Fire- and Rock-type weaknesses with it. Tangrowth also won't be sweeping anything due to its abysmal Speed, Cryogonal has insane physical frailty (ergo priority weakness) and Sceptile... well this is probably the best choice but I'd imagine that a standard Life Orb set would be more effective? Sceptile is already one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier and Life Orb means that it isn't so dependent on Volbeat.
Ooh, Garde, very cool mon :O Personally, I've found Healing Wish>TBolt, since the utility of the move is just incredible, and the fact that it innately lures in 'mons such CB Escavalier and Spiritomb makes it a great partner for offensive Dark- and Steel-types that can exploit a Choice-locked Pursuit (think Durant, Crawdaunt, etc.). Also late-game Healing Wish to a worn-down sweeper is just clutch, and I've managed to get away with making teams consisting largely of setup sweepers for this reason :O On the note of Gardevoir, I've found SubWisp to be a very cool set, allowing to draw in and cripple several common switch-in's to Gardevoir, which while not necessarily allowing Garde itself to clean up later does ensure an opportunity for another such Pokemon, such as SubCM Uxie, to safely clean up late-game (tl;dr Garde is cool in "overload" teams, though it is awesome in general) =)
@Cherub: Huntile's not completely dependent on Volbeat. 105 special attack with 252 EVs is not to be laughed at unboosted and makes for a good revenge killer if your Entei's already fainted. Also, it's not "ineffective": it works, and has done for ages now. As I said before, this may be due to the ladder at large not being able to predict Volbeat. The ones that do are the 25-33% of cases where Volbeat can't set up as the opponent plays an offensive Pokemon at the start. (The only common hard counters to Sash Volbeat I can think of are Cinccino and Drapion) However, successful TG/BP on over two thirds of occasions makes for a good Pokemon in my book.
The other thing that people can never predict is the Huntile set itself. Setup leads, which account for about two thirds of first-mons-out I've seen recently, can't do much to Sceptile. By the time they have switched out, Baton Pass has been successful. Sceptile, using its outstanding natural speed, can then outspeed the opponent in the vast majority of cases. Seeing as it's special (obviously, thanks to the Tail Glow boost), the opponent assumes Overgrow and then gets their next 1-3 Pokemon OHKO'd by their mistake. This actually happens.
One thing that I can agree with Cherub on is that my Baton Pass options need work. It's true, they all share a Fire weakness. Usually I use Entei as a Fire switch-in, as the vast majority of Fire attacks are either a) opposing Entei (in which case Stone Edge can OHKO, I use LO and most other people use CB so I can do that) or b) Fire Blasts from Nidoqueen (given a choice of two Grass types and a Levitate user, it wouldn't Earth Power, and Entei outspeeds and OHKOs Nidoqueen with Flare Blitz).
If anyone can recommend a different BP recipient to replace Tangrowth or Cryogonal they are welcome to do so.
The other thing that people can never predict is the Huntile set itself. Setup leads, which account for about two thirds of first-mons-out I've seen recently, can't do much to Sceptile. By the time they have switched out, Baton Pass has been successful. Sceptile, using its outstanding natural speed, can then outspeed the opponent in the vast majority of cases. Seeing as it's special (obviously, thanks to the Tail Glow boost), the opponent assumes Overgrow and then gets their next 1-3 Pokemon OHKO'd by their mistake. This actually happens.
The fact that you are using a gem usually reveals that you are using Unburden generally. Plus, it isn't like Sceptile is in danger of being outsped by very many Pokemon, and most Choice Scarfed Pokemon, Aerodactyl, and Accelgor aren't going to fold over and die to unboosted, unSTABbed, 70 BP Hidden Power Rocks, Focus Blasts, and Giga Drains unless they are already weak to the latter two, which generally its revenge killers are not. To put it in perspective...
252 SpAtk Sceptile Hidden Power Rock vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Accelgor: 66.45% - 78.41% (2 hits to KO)
That is against a freaking Accelgor, which is very frail, and it can't even always OHKO after Rocks.
Sceptile can't even guarantee its OHKOs if it does hit for Super Effective damage.
252 SpAtk Sceptile Giga Drain vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Feraligatr: 80.06% - 94.53% (2 hits to KO)
While Feraligatr does have a decent 85/83 Special Defense, that still isn't very good, especially considering most Feraligatr invest in HP. Not that Feraligatr vs. Sceptile will every happen, but this means that Sceptile needs some sort of boosting item or general boost if it wishes to go offensive, and relying on Volbeat isn't the best idea because every Special Attacker likes support from Volbeat. I believe I actually faced this team before (twice) and the Sceptile was also very vulnerable to priority attacks if it didn't set up a Substitute, a fact which has not changed from any other Sceptile.
i have never played RU, but i feel like now is the perfect time for myself and anybody else who has never played this tier to start... how often do you get a perfectly balanced metagame?
Granted, this set is better with Volbeat, and I recommend using it. If you really want to use it without Volbeat, my advice to you is to change the nature from Timid to Modest, so at least it's max Special Attack. Reliance on Life Orb or Choice Band/Specs is not a good thing. Using Modest at least guarantees OHKOing Feraligatr and 2HKOing Accelgor and Aerodactyl (possibly OHKOing after rocks, but the kind of team with Volbeat as a lead isn't going to set up SR until the midgame)
This tier is pretty awesome, I'm enjoying laddering a lot, but I really haven't gotten a feel for Nidoqueen because only a few people use it. That SubCM Uxie set looks cool molk, I might make a team with it if I ever get bored of the one I'm using [but I doubt I will], since I love semi stall teams based around a SubCM Sweeper. Also Escavalier is probably my favorite Pokemon, if you can get it in, you can severely rupture offensive teams by spamming Megahorn alone, plus it's got nice bulk and all of that, also cool to beat Sigilyph with when you have a taunter.
Yeah, Escavalier is easily one of the best Pokemon in the metagame right now, while its coverage is really lacking, it doesnt really give a shit because its Megahorn is so damn powerful (it rivals the power of Aggron's head smash, thats really something!). Escavalier is a cool niche check to a ton of metagame threats such as Sceptile, Lilligant, Choice locked Druddigon, Slowking (watch out for Fire Blast! ;-;), and Uxie, and a slew of other Pokemon. Not to mention that Escavalier gives hail teams quite a bit of trouble with a combination of its typing, bulk, and Ability, making it very resistant to blizzspamming and hail stall tactics. While Choice Band Escavalier is my favorite set (OTR slowking+CB Escavalier <3), its capable of running some other sets such as a specially defensive set or an offensive pivot, who sacrifice a bit of power for being much harder to wear down, especially with protect.
i have never played RU, but i feel like now is the perfect time for myself and anybody else who has never played this tier to start... how often do you get a perfectly balanced metagame?
Never, as there hasn't been a perfectly balanced metagame since... Gen II, I think. I didn't play competitively in Gen II, as I was rather young.
At any rate, props to you guys for rebanning Cresselia and... wait, you didn't get rid of Nidoqueen? You're banking on two months' worth of usage thresholds just to wait for it to kick herself upstairs?
:|
At least RU's improved some. I still feel iffy about seeing some Pokes around in the tier (like Escavalier) without a Suspect Test to at least offer. Then again, my definition of balanced is a lot more extreme than your guys' definition, so I'll cut this tier some slack; things can only get better from here, after all.
One Pokemon I have been using for a few months now and found to be extremely useful is what I refer to as "Huntile", aka Special Unburden Sceptile. I'm using this set at the moment IIRC:
[pimg]254[/pimg]
Sceptile @ Grass Gem
Ability: Unburden
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
-Giga Drain
-Focus Blast
-Hidden Power Rock
-Substitute
I'm an NU player at heart, but I've been playing RU a bit and I've gotten fairly high on the ladder using a team with Musharna and Gurdurr. It's a combination that works astonishingly well in NU, and from my experience almost as well in RU. Musharna sets up on, well, basically everything without a strong Dark/Bug move. Gurdurr takes Dark and Bug moves and frequently uses them to set up. On Musharna I'm using the standard Calm Mind set with Baton Pass. My most frequent receiver is Tangrowth, because Tang's truly a frightening beast with a few Calm Mind boosts.
What do you guys think about Musharna and Gurdurr in RU?
Edit: So far, I'm 17-1 with this team in its current form.
Why is Rhydon so low in usage? I have been using it on my teams recently because molk told me this nigga is amazing, but because defensive sets are for pussies, I decided to use a set that fits what I look for in an offensive pokemon: KILL EVERYTHING. Because of that, I picked a Choice Band set.
@ Choice Band
Trait: Reckless
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk/ 4 SAtk
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Double-Edge
- Megahorn
I know that Reckless only boosts one move in Rhydon's movepool, but trust me that it is worth the ability slot and should be clear why later (is not like his other abilities are good anyway). Earthquake and Stone edge are the obvious stabs that will hit everything that doesn't resist it or have Giratina's level bulk for at least a high chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock damage and at least a layer of spikes. Megahorn is an important move here as it allows Rhydon to hit those annoying defensive grass-types not called Amoonguss or Roselia for a solid OHKO(this includes Tangrowth with some hazard support or a bit of prior damage). Double-Edge is mostly filler because the other 3 moves already do everything Rhydon wants to, but there is another reason of why it is used below. Evs are simple: Max attack for maximum damage output, max speed because it outspeeds Alomomola without dying to her pathetic attacks first (and because 8 hp evs make no difference), last 4 evs for sp.A because why the hell not? They won't make a difference anyway. Despite the lack of defensive investment, Rhydon is still a solid check to most of the stuff his defensive set can take on (105/120 is still pretty good uninvested and without eviolite), but hitting whatever tries to come in for insane damage.
I know what some of you might be thinking: "why use banded Rhydon when Aggron exists"? The answer is simple, Rhydon can 2hko Poliwrath without resorting to a pathetic move like thunderpunch that is really only hitting poliwrath harder. Meanwhile Rhydon can use that incredibly powerful stab Earthquake to 2hko it without even trying and not risking getting set up on by one of the many things that are resists/are immune to thunderpunch next turn. But you might be thinking "BUT EQ CAN DO THE SAME TO RHYDON" which is wrong because Rhydon has Double-Edge boosted by reckless to guarantee the 2hko on Poliwrath with only sr on the field, and because no rock, steel, or ghost will dare to come in Rhydon because they are hit for at least 50% from earthquake, it is a fairly decent spamming move to soften stuff earlier for Rhydon to smash later in the game or make it easier for its partners (consider that double-edge is almost as strong as his Stabs thanks to Reckless and powerful enough to 2hko Alomomola and Tangrowth after Stealth Rock+Spikes).
Decent partners include:
Ludicolo. Takes nothing from water attacks, makes Rhydon's job easier by obliterating its check with its standard moveset while Rhydon kills Ludicolo's checks and counters easily (suddenly poliwrath is a liability against Rhydon).
Druddigon. Bulky enough to don't mind taking water attacks not named scald and grass attacks, and not caring about the few steel-types thanks to Rhydon? Sounds great, but that weakness to ice suck for both, but nothing that can't be solved with partners like Emboar.
Moltres. Pretty much the same reasons as ludicolo, but change water attacks for grass attacks. Be careful about those random hp rock though. Moltres also gets bonus points for smashing hail stuff to make Rhydon's job easier.
TL;DR: Rhydon should be used more and not even close to nu drop zone.
Calcs showing how strong this guy is:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 201-237 (52.34 - 61.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Rhydon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 192-227 (50 - 59.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 223-264 (41.76 - 49.43%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Rhydon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 215-253 (40.26 - 47.37%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 166-196 (41.08 - 48.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Rhydon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 159-188 (39.35 - 46.53%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 266-314 (65.84 - 77.72%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Uxie: 276-326 (77.96 - 92.09%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Uxie: 172-204 (48.58 - 57.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Rhydon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Uxie: 165-195 (46.61 - 55.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sandslash: 181-214 (51.12 - 60.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Rhydon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sandslash: 175-206 (49.43 - 58.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I'm honestly very curious as to how this pans out as one of the few loses I had on the Dark Horse project was to that team. Mushy is borderline broken in NU from what I saw playing there, and Gurrdurr is shockingly bulky. I may try one of those out later just to see but I think both of them have a niche as either a bulky setter upper with Gurrdurr or as a poor mans Cresselia with Musharna.
CB Rhydon is really neat, Trop! It's shit special defense makes it quite iffy, though, since special offense dominates RU atm. Do you have a replay of this mon in action?
What really sucks now is Lilligant - every good player is prepared against Grass-types like Sceptile and Rotom-C, which by extension also means Lilligant is hard-countered. Sure it has QD, but with only HP coverage, it's gonna get walled by something. Sap Sipper mons wouldn't even let Lilligant sleep something ffs ;/
