Metagame NP: RU Stage 17: Try Again / Do It Again (Shaymin and Slurpuff banned, Tangrowth up to OU)

Status
Not open for further replies.

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
The RU council has brought up Mega Steelix and Tyrantrum as being deserving of a suspect test. As always, if you'd like to see some in depth reasoning as to why these Pokemon are being suspected, there are some paragraphs below written about why Mega Steelix and Tyrantrum in particular were chosen.

The requirements for this test will not be the same as last time. There will be two separate ladders, you have to get reqs on both, one with the current meta game, that will be up for 1 week. On this ladder you will be required to reach a coil of 2700 (the B value is still 9), with no game limit (deadline May 28th at midnight). For the second ladder, the reqs will be 2800 coil with a B value of 9.0, but you will need to finish reqs within 62 games. You will have 9 days (1 week + 1 weekend) to complete this portion of the suspect test. Some sample values for the second ladder are below. I will know if you reset your win loss, given its determined by GXE, do not attempt to game the system you will be infracted if I catch you, and I will.


Code:
GXE N
100 18
90 25
85 32
80 46
78.5 55
77.5 62
To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula (for the second portion)
N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800)
(for the first replace GXE w/ your GXE and 2800 w/ 2700)

Tyrantrum is being suspected primarily due to its extremely hard hitting STAB moves. For offensive teams, it is very hard to find a rock resist sturdy enough to switch in and take two Head Smashes from Scarf Tyrantrum, this is exacerbated by the fact that the best steel types are not easy to fit onto purely offensive teams. Because of this, offensive teams are limited quite a bit in this metagame, and are often forced into running a slower, more defensive Pokemon, which can be a huge momentum drain that heavy offense teams can't afford. While Tyrantrum has the most influence on offensive teams, it is not dead weight against defensive teams either, simply due to the extremely high BP of its STAB moves, especially if it uses Choice Band. Common defensive steel types lack reliable recovery, so Tyrantrum's presence can easily lead to them being overwhelmed.


Mega Steelix is being suspected due to the extremely centralizing effect it has on teambuilding in the current RU meta game. Mega Steelix is capable of fitting onto every team from stall to bulky offense, due to its great offensive and defensive presence. Its amazing natural bulk and high base power STAB moves have an extremely limiting effect on the possible team compositions in RU. Several Pokemon, which are otherwise proficient in the RU meta game, become difficult to use given the ubiquity and effectiveness of Mega Steelix in the RU meta game.


tagging The Immortal for a ladder (should be RU current first, same meta as allowed right now), thanks in advance !_!

NP Song:


plz no mad llamas, but that last song wasn't even ironically good

Fuck off, I got TWO compliments on my song, I'll just make it both -_-


***PSA: Do not shit post. Posts lacking content are subject to be deleted and/or infracted.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Oh yeah I was gonna post my thoughts on M lix in the last thread but I was busy and stuff. Basically, I think unlike some of the things that Mega Steelix was being compared to (ie Exploud), the one thing that makes Mega Steelix's impact on the tier different from something like that is, due to Lix having incredible offensive and defensive presence, the way it warps team building is actually pretty unique. Mega Steelix capitalizes on a wide variety of Pokemon that struggle to much back to it while also applying heavy offensive pressure with its STAB moves alone. That's what makes Mega Steelix worthy of a test, it requires a lot more of a teams resources to be used preparing for it than other pokemon in the metagame. For example, if I have a Pokemon like Alomomola that gives Sigilyph a free switch in (for the most part), I can pretty much mitigate that by "spending" one of my slots on a pursuit trapper. Various Pokemon require a different number of resources to deal with them, either switch ins, or things that beat them 1v1. Mega Steelix is the type of pokemon that requires people to use a high portion of these resources on things that beat it, for example, if I plan on using Garbodor (which can't really touch M lix) I'm required to have a switch in to Mega Lix (which between Toxic / Slam / EQ is easier said than done) + 4 things that beat it 1v1. There is a pretty long list of Pokemon that become more trouble than they are worth in a meta game with Mega Steelix, which is a lot different than something like Exploud, which, while it makes certain Pokemon a liability, it doesn't require as many resources to deal with and is not nearly as ubiquitous as Mega Steelix.

That being said I am not currently leaning towards ban, atm I'd probably say I'm leaning towards no ban, but I am actually really looking forward to playing the portion of the ladder without either of these suspects. I think there is a good chance that the meta game becomes healthier, and if it is a noticeable improvement I will probably vote Ban. I think exploring the meta game like this, by removing a potentially unhealthy force from the tier is a really good idea, and at the very least will be an interesting exploration of what makes the current RU meta game "the way it is".

Also yeah I was typing this before this thread got locked (which I agree w/ until ladder), but yeah feel free to reply to this after the thread is unlocked :)!
 
I think Tyrantrum provides so much pressure and versatility with movesets like, CB/CS, Rock Polish, DD, or even weakness policy I've seen, I think the suspect (again) is definitely deserved. Mega Steelix is like Lando-t in OU, where it softchecks/counters most of the RU meta and is a glue in almost every single team, with such offensive and defensive pressure with access to moves like toxic, stealth rock and more, it really is a nuisance and can grant many free turns, I can understand the suspect. I think if you ban mega steelix you ban tyrantrum because mega steelix is one of the few counters to Tyrantrum.
 
hey, i don't want either banned. the only pro-ban argument i've ever heard for an m-lix ban has been that it 'centralizes' the metagame, which is both not exceedingly accurate in a metagame that more commonly than ever diversifies their defensive steels (registeel is the trendy pick nowadays by a notable margin, whether or not i agree w/it) and a really stupid reason. centralization is not an inherently bad thing and has been put on a pedestal of buzzwords by naive individuals more inappropriately than "match-up". centralization is something that is established when a clear hierarchy of quality pokemon sets in, and it is something that a.punishes people for failing to adapt to that hierarchy, b.can shift tremendously with variance in the system (ex: venu drop), and c. rewards creativity in building. like 90% of my building opens on the "so x, y, and / or z are popular right now, how can i exploit that?", and usually the answer isn't "i can't" b.c the centralizing elements aren't so overbearing or restrictive upon any given playstyle that i can't return to anything similarly stale to combat it.

its hard to quantify specific bits w/tyrantrum, and i had tried w/llamas previously to some success (if he gets around to posting himself maybe he can offer his opinions on it), but i do not consider tyrantrum any more overbearing than any of the other offensive threats available to the tier. we aren't strapped for solid rock resists now, and we haven't been for some time. it's a strong beater, sure, but no more so than plenty of others, and unlike more ban-worthy ish like ant, it lacks the speed, versatility, or ability to net free turns consistently for which to establish suitable arguments against it. the scarf tyrantrum craze has died down i think, but really all it read as to me was "virizion isn't a good rock resist and scarf emboar is kinda slow, therefore tyrantrum is broken". like not exaggerating, it was hella laughable to me b.c duh? all it was doing then was skewing speed tiers a bit and punishing dudes for skimping on rock resists, and now that we have aero doing the same thing and perhaps having the more enticing pursuit angle to it, there's even less reason for that to be a feasible excuse. it's a solid, moderately beefy hitter that can punish certain looser balances or offenses w/smart play and a little team support. doesn't read as anything worth banning to me.
 
Last edited:
Though I've been irrelevant in RU for a while now, I'd like to post my thoughts on the suspects:

Tyrantrum
I've had mixed feelings on Tyrantrum for a while now. While I, personally, have never had issues fighting against it, I have used it and learned that with a Choice Scarf, it can easily start overwhelming opponents. Now, in the current meta, I feel like yes it has lost a bit of its strength, but it's still an amazingly strong Pokemon. It's also fairly versatile with the sets it can run, Lum DD and Weakness Policy RP (I've seen this quite a bit on the ladder) are some sets that I've seen wreck havoc. I'm gonna have to lean towards ban for it, I just think it's offensive presence is a little too much for the current meta, especially with the possibility of Mega Steelix being banned.

Mega Steelix
Oh lord, when I first saw this being brought up for a suspect I thought it was a joke. After seeing some of the reasons for it, it started making sense... Megalix is such a common Pokemon, and for good reason, too. It's one of the best Pokemon in the RU tier currently, but it's, as people have said, over centralizing. Before I started branching out, most of my teams had Mega Steelix on them. This could set up rocks, wall physically attacking threats, and even pull off a late game sweep if my opponent's team was weak enough (at +0). I'd like to see what people think of this, but I'm currently going to vote abstain.
 

phantom

is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
RU Leader
if you're denying steelix's influence on the tier as the premier steel-type, you're either kidding yourself at best or being intellectually dishonest at worst. never mind this "buzzword" nonsense, which is thinly-veiled ad hominem in and of itself. there is no one Pokemon that singlehandedly decides the viability of so many other pokemon and punishes you for using them. aromatisse, escavalier, and various other Pokemon that have diminished significantly in viability as a result of Steelix's presence due to the amount of work its capable of doing once it gets a free turn, and those are just some examples. ofc centralization isn't inherently a bad thing, see: gligar in xy, but centralization to the degree where a single pokemon decides the viability of so many in the tier and restricts the tier's growth due to its unparalleled combination of offenses and bulk is just straight up unhealthy. I mean hey, if you're perfectly content recycling between the same archetypes and combinations b/c a single pokemon shuts down the viability of dozens of others, that's your prerogative. i'd rather see ru in a position where the pokemon centralizing the tier make it easier to handle the various offensive and defensive threats such that it promotes diversity and creativity, not centralize the tier in the way that puts a cap on creativity and restricts the pool of viable pokemon that makes the tier stale like steelix does.
 
its hard to quantify specific bits w/tyrantrum, and i had tried w/llamas previously to some success (if he gets around to posting himself maybe he can offer his opinions on it), but i do not consider tyrantrum any more overbearing than any of the other offensive threats available to the tier. we aren't strapped for solid rock resists now, and we haven't been for some time. it's a strong beater, sure, but no more so than plenty of others, and unlike more ban-worthy ish like ant, it lacks the speed, versatility, or ability to net free turns consistently for which to establish suitable arguments against it. the scarf tyrantrum craze has died down i think, but really all it read as to me was "virizion isn't a good rock resist and scarf emboar is kinda slow, therefore tyrantrum is broken". like not exaggerating, it was hella laughable to me b.c duh? all it was doing then was skewing speed tiers a bit and punishing dudes for skimping on rock resists, and now that we have aero doing the same thing and perhaps having the more enticing pursuit angle to it, there's even less reason for that to be a feasible excuse. it's a solid, moderately beefy hitter that can punish certain looser balances or offenses w/smart play and a little team support. doesn't read as anything worth banning to me.
I'm not going to talk about other people's arguments, but I personally think Tyrantrum is broken for two different reasons. First off, the Choice Scarf set is very limiting for offense - you're very reliant on using one of Mawile / Gurdurr because there's not much else that switches into Head Smash / Outrage and is good on offense. You're comparing it to Aerodactyl but Scarf Ttum is both faster and hits harder with its main STAB move. On offense you need both a good Rock resist AND a good Dragon resist otherwise you're really pressured. Yeah, there's stuff like Scarf Medicham that revenge kills after Tyrantrum is locked into Outrage, and that's a p great Pokemon on offense but the point is, Tyrantrum limits offensive teams a lot, especially lategame.

Second, you fail to take into account Choice Band Tyrantrum. There's literally 6 good Pokemon that can switch into Band Head Smash: Mega Steelix, fast Seismitoad, Rhyperior, Gurdurr, Intimidate Scrafty (this is really close to 2HKO'd), (notice how I'm not listing Bronzong, who gets 3HKO'd and fails to OHKO back.), Registeel. You're so pressured to switch into those Pokemon because there's basically nothing else that can live a Head Smash, let alone play around it. Most of these Pokemon also get OHKO'd by the appropriate coverage move so if you make a bad prediction, you lose a Pokemon. Defensive teams have really few options against Band TTum in general because you can't even do shit like scouting what move it's using with Alomomola because it can get straight up OHKO'd by Band Head Smash after SR. It's literally just a guessing game. Also, it's not like Tyrantrum is a glass cannon; it actually lives most physical attacks pretty comfortably aside from Medicham/Hitmonlee, and it's fast enough to pressure a decent amount of the tier, so it's not like there's a massive opportunity cost or anything.
 

Natural Talent

Don't die trying to live..
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I'm moving towards banning neither. I don't really see a problem with them. Each have a good hand full of counters and usually likes can kill themselves and lix checks tyrantrum.

Starting off with Lix :

Steelix is a really great mon. Centralizing and is just amazingly useful. From being a phazer , to hazard setter & even a curse set up sweeper. It switches into a handful of strong & really hard hitting mons used on a lot of offensive teams, such Tyrantrum, Rotom - C, Sneasel ( besides Low Kick), Beats aromatisse, 2hko's flygon so they have a hard time removing rocks. It's typing is overall great. I wouldn't say it's OP, but rather say it's really good. It loses to a lot of bulky waters such as alomomola, jellicent, seismitoad & clawitzer.

Tyrantrum : Really good mon, It's Movepool isn't too bad followed by nice attack & Rock Head + Head Smash. Banded can decimate almost anything in it's path, Scarf can clean up late game & Dragon Dance can sweep. Other sets such as Rock Polish & Stealth Rock are really fun as well. I wouldn't say it's broken since I usually don't have problem with it but i can see how it can cause trouble to slower teams. 71 isn't that fast & it's special defense and typing doesn't allow it to take hit's that great. Most ground types can switch into and beat it, such ass rhyperior steelix and sometimes seismitoad.

I'm going with no ban based on my own experience with these two mons.

But if steelix leaves, then tyrantrum has to go as well because we would have lost one of it's best switch ins.
 
Mega Steelix: Apart from centralization and making a couple of Pokemon subpar at best, there are some more points that I think makes Mega Steelix broken in the tier. Obviously the former points are very important, and this suspect test wouldn't have occurred if it's only the points I'll include are true.
The most common set Steelix runs is this one:


Steelix @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Atk / 124 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Toxic

I'm hiding the Speed creep I invest on most of my Steelix spreads, but this is the standard set, as seen from high ladder, SPL games, and RUPL games. With that being said, I want to focus on the Pokemon that can switch safely on Mega Steelix, and how Mega Steelix deals with them:
  • Alomomola: Alomomola takes little from Earthquake, but if Steelix Toxics it, it's crippled for the rest of the game.
  • Tangrowth: Benefits from Regenerator, but Heavy Slam does 38% to the ones having HP (They should, because AV Tangrowth is the best Tangrowth set atm). However if Steelix decides to use Toxic, Tangrowth is also heavily crippled for the rest of the game.
  • Slowking: Same like Alomomola and Tangrowth, except that it doesn't like switching into an Earthquake (does like 32% minimum). Slowking is forced to Slack Off and Steelix can get a Toxic and switch out.
  • Rotom-Mow: Can't switch in very reliably, takes like 36% min from Heavy Slam. Prone to Toxic, gets walled by all Grass-types unless you're running HP Fly.
  • Seismitoad: Hates being Toxic-ed, no reliable recovery, prone to being worn down.
  • Rotom: Has a roll of being 2HKOed by Heavy Slam, hates Toxic, is being forced to click Will-O-Wisp.
  • Blastoise: Only Pokemon which can take Toxic due to Refresh, but lacks reliable recovery and is susceptible to being worn down.
90% of these checks kill momentum and are good Pokemon for balance builds. This proves that offense has nothing for Mega Steelix when switching in. Surely, they can beat Steelix by giving offensive pressure, but how much can you give? Your opponent switches his Steelix on your Tyrantrum or Sneasel and you're going to decide what to sack now. This is unhealthy, as a certain playstyle is almost unviable due to this Pokemon. Let's look at the Steelix checks again. Which Pokemon can reliably beat it without getting crippled? None. Steelix can just cripple the Pokemon with Toxic, and switch out, or in Blastoises case, get chip damage and switch out. A Pokemon that can beat it checks with only one set is very unhealthy. Definitely going for a ban on Mega Steelix.

I'll expand on Tyrantrum later.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
Your opponent switches his Steelix on your Tyrantrum or Sneasel and you're going to decide what to sack now. This is unhealthy, as a certain playstyle is almost unviable due to this Pokemon. Let's look at the Steelix checks again. Which Pokemon can reliably beat it without getting crippled? None. Steelix can just cripple the Pokemon with Toxic, and switch out, or in Blastoises case, get chip damage and switch out. A Pokemon that can beat it checks with only one set is very unhealthy. Definitely going for a ban on Mega Steelix.
I'm on mobile and will be for some time, here's my argument though:

Thing is, both of those have the potential to do like 35 on the switch-in, which is my big gripe with Lix : you get 1 opportunity before you're 2hkoed if the opponent plays well, and from there you are an offensive threat too slow to do any damage to offensive mons. Meanwhile, you can just sac the sneasel / Ttrum for the second hit and lixer is basically gone. Heck, get a good steel resist and a flying and win the 50/50.

(I recognize Steelix can RK or double switch in; so can many dangerous offensive threats. Unlike those it even has to take a hit if they sac.)

Now is a good time to mention that trapper magneton is hot fire regardless of Lix trapping. I mean, my old counter to magneton WAS Lix and obviously that doesn't work. (For those who might not get it: beating m-lixes, i.e. primary election counter for a lot of people, as it comes in on you, is nice, switching into it and trapping it is just icing).I've argued that magpull is just better than specs as a breaker right now so there's that too.

Ultimately Lix is good but you can wear away at it and eventually take it out too. takes some prediction I grant, but unlike other offensive threats it has no speed and unlike defensive threats it has very few things to switch in on easily (certain stabs but not coverages).
 

EonX

One and Only
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I want to expand on Arifeen's points about Mega Steelix because it's the point I've been trying to drive home for a while now. I know a few of you are probably going to think "oh, but I can use Heal Bell support to help my bulky Grass- and Water-types with Toxic, no problem." Uh, major problem. Let's look at our best clerics shall we? We have Diancie, Granbull, Aromatisse, Togetic, and Audino. Notice anything? Yeah, Mega Steelix just comes in and threatens them and can repeat the process all over again. And Heal Bell / Aromatherapy only have 8 PP. I've already explained at length what I think about Mega Lix, but I will summarize. It gets 31% usage with basically one set and is stupid easy to slap on a team because of how well it works with offensive and defensive Pokemon alike due to its presence on both offense and defense. That one set can alter its EV spread based on what you need it to do for your team.

tehy, I get where you're coming from, but allow me to bring up some points on your points. Yes, nothing is stopping the opponent from double switching on a predicted Mega Steelix switch-in to keep it from doing tons of damage to an offensive team. But is this not similar to a 50 / 50 created by certain offensive mons and their coverage moves? (Tyrantrum for example) I would love to find a good Steel resist for offense. I would love nothing more than that. So what's stopping me? Well, when your best offensive Water-types are Samurott, Kabutops, and Omastar in a meta where Virizion and Venusaur are also pretty common offensive threats combined with the fact that none like taking EQ (hell, the latter two are weak to EQ) that's a bit unfortunate. The only other types to resist Steel are Fire and Steel and I trust you know the issue with these types. Not to mention the only good Steel-type with offensive presence is, surprise, Mega Steelix. So yeah, there's a reason offense has as much of a problem with Mega Steelix as it does. Offense either guesses the STAB and hope they're right or tries to predict with doubles. IMO, these are equivalent to 50 / 50s that previously powerful broken Pokemon, such as Yanmega, Honchkrow, and Zoroark created with their offensive presence and ability. Mega Steelix creates these with a blend of its offensive and defensive presence vs offense rather than just relying on one or the other all the time.
 
Hey just to let you guys know, currently you don't get Coil from laddering. However, Coil is calculated retroactively, which means you may continue to ladder and once the ladder is fixed, you will get the amount of coil that you earned.
 

-Tsunami-

Banned deucer.
is the 2nd Smogon Classic Winneris a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
After thinking it over, I feel that Mega Steelix restricts teambuilding to a great enough extent that it should be banned. It may be true that simply centralizing a metagame is not ample grounds for banishing a Pokemon from a tier, but when the Pokemon in question can effortlessly put so much pressure on such a diverse array of builds through the use of only one set, its presence in the tier needs to be re-visited. Steelix counters such a diverse selection of Pokemon, and unlike other potent walls such as Alomomola and Registeel, it possesses a great deal of attacking power as well. Offense is pressured to an unhealthy extent by Steelix, as it can effortlessly counter common Pokemon such as Scarf Tyrantrum, and then threaten to lay waste to whatever comes in. Arifeen already went over many of the common counters to Steelix and how they are easily susceptible to its wrath, so I'm not going to harp on that point for very long. Toxic allows Steelix to threaten all of these Pokemon; landing a Toxic on Alomomola greatly hinders the latter's utility unless it is paired with a cleric. Many Steelix-users choose to run Roar over Toxic, which is especially useful when facing Magneton. If a Steelix has Roar, even trapping it with Magnet Rise Magneton becomes a tedious process, as one cannot haphazardly switch in Magneton due to the fear of Earthquake. Not to mention, if someone brings in a Magneton on a Steelix, it is almost guaranteed that the Magneton possesses Magnet Rise, which gives the Steelix user a free opportunity to Roar it out; even attempting to trap this behemoth can become a series of mindgames. I feel that Steelix counters too many threats while being able to retain too much strength; its access to Stealth Rock also greatly supports its team. I believe that it makes many Pokemon such as Aromatisse liabilities, and is just too restrictive on teambuilding in general. Because of this, I feel that it warrants a ban so that the metagame can develop.

I believe that Tyrantrum should be banished from the tier as well. Its Choice Scarf set is extremely threatening for offensive teams, and hardly anything commonly run on those teams boasts the ability to take both Head Smash and Outrage. Meanwhile, its Choice Band set is ridiculously threatening to more bulky teams, as even Alomomola takes a great deal of damage from Head Smash. In addition, Tyrantrum is relatively bulky for an offensive juggernaut, especially on the physical side. Its typing also allows it to check Electric-types and Fletchinder, amongst other things. Its bulk also lets it handily survive Ice Shards from the likes of Sneasel and Mega Glalie, making it even more threatening for offensive teams. Its Dragon Dance set can also be threatening for teams, as many common switch-ins to the Choice Scarf variant, such as Alomomola and Registeel, become set-up fodder. Because of its raw power and bulk, Tyrantrum is far too threatening in the RU metagame, and I believe that it deserves to be banned.
 
Last edited:
I think the main argument regarding this ban on each mon is regarding centralization, and what constitutes good versus bad overcentralization. There is no denying that both of these mons are very common in the meta and easy to slap on any team, however that in and of itself does not make them broken. Nor is the fact that they can each be highly effective by merely running one or two different sets. To me this feels more like banning the next best thing than any other suspect in the tier, any mon has to be accounted for in the teambuilding stage, and neither of these are all that difficult to prep for and are difficult to play around, hell each basically having couple sets makes them easy to predict.
I think a motive for this test is to see a meta without these mons since they have been dominant for so long and people want to shake up the metagame, however without these mons I dont think the metagame would substantially change (just theorymon and not a reason for or against banning just a point).
 

EonX

One and Only
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I think the main argument regarding this ban on each mon is regarding centralization, and what constitutes good versus bad overcentralization. There is no denying that both of these mons are very common in the meta and easy to slap on any team, however that in and of itself does not make them broken. Nor is the fact that they can each be highly effective by merely running one or two different sets. To me this feels more like banning the next best thing than any other suspect in the tier, any mon has to be accounted for in the teambuilding stage, and neither of these are all that difficult to prep for and are difficult to play around, hell each basically having couple sets makes them easy to predict.
I think a motive for this test is to see a meta without these mons since they have been dominant for so long and people want to shake up the metagame, however without these mons I dont think the metagame would substantially change (just theorymon and not a reason for or against banning just a point).
If I understand it correctly (council can feel free to correct me on this if I'm wrong) then the 2nd ladder that goes up next week will be one without Mega Steelix and Tyrantrum, which would gives us an idea as to what the tier might look like if the two were banned. I believe this was done simply due to how amazing and common these two Pokemon are in the tier as it would be a very drastic change if both left us. (at least in theory) As far as being easy to predict, that doesn't necessarily make them easy to switch into. Most Mega Steelix switch-ins are greatly hindered by Toxic (or simply worn down by repeated attacks) and outside of Mega Steelix, there is not a guaranteed safe switch-in for Tyrantrum since Band rips a hole into everything that tanks Scarf with Superpower while Scarf outspeeds just about everything you'd want to use in order to revenge the Band set. Also, since I haven't talked much about Tyrantrum, I want to delve into it a little bit:

Ok, so everyone knows about the Scarf set. It's what got Tyrantrum suspected a couple of months back and nearly banned then, and I feel it's still incredibly good now. However, I want to focus on the Band set:


Tyrantrum @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Outrage
- Superpower
- Earthquake / Dragon Claw

So here we have a Pokemon with a base 123 Attack stat with Choice Band and a 150 BP STAB move. I think you can already tell the issue with that. So what's the big deal? Isn't is just another powerful wallbreaker you can play around? Well, not exactly. While the fact it has a Scarf set makes it more difficult to play around anyway, the bigger problem imo is the fact that everything that wants to take Head Smash has no reliable recovery AND is gutted by Superpower or STAB Outrage. Rhyperior is simply 2HKOed by Banded Outrage. Registeel is 2HKOed by Superpower. Hell, you don't even need to stay in for the 2nd Superpower. Just one means that they can't switch into Tyrantrum again later due to how powerful Head Smash is. Mega Steelix is the only exception to this. And even then, there's plenty of Pokemon that love having Mega Steelix weakened. The only real reason the 4th slot exists is so Tyrantrum has a no drawback move to lock into if the situation calls for it. I believe DTC has been messing around with a bulkier spread, but I have not only yet to use it, but also can't remember it off hand. But that lets me get into something else. The other wallbreaker a lot of people hated dealing with due to a super spammable STAB move with great coverage to cut down what resists it is Exploud. There's a key difference between these two and that's the fact Tyrantrum actually adds some defensive synergy (4x Fire resist, resists Flying and Electric) to the team whereas Exploud really doesn't. Here's a list of calcs for the Band set just to give you an idea of its power:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 288-340 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 196-232 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Superpower vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Bronzong: 142-168 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Bronzong: 132-156 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 246-289 (56.8 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 120 HP / 216+ Def Alomomola: 330-388 (65.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 120 HP / 136+ Def Alomomola: 357-421 (71.2 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 182-216 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 102-121 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- 88.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

think you have an offensive switch-in for Head Smash? guess again

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Virizion: 250-294 (77.3 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Flygon: 229-270 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


So yeah, you have no way to reliably maintain offensive momentum against a Band Tyrantrum, even on a balance team that's likely using something like Virizion or Flygon as they simply get gutted by Head Smash. The Mola spread is something I like using if I feel too weak to Mega Steelix or Fighting-types. But simply put, if you lack a Steel-type, Band Tyrantrum clicks a STAB move and just watches something drop. Base 71 Speed is outsped by a ton of stuff for sure, but it also has the Scarf set we all love (or hate!) that flips the table on most of these responses. And it doesn't help matters any that most teams prepare for the Scarf set more (for good reason mind you) so when you look at Tyrantrum, don't just think of the Scarf set. It has an equally dangerous Band set that I would argue is probably better right now because of how unprepared most teams are. Problem is, it's very hard to prepare for both variants unless you use Mega Steelix since it doesn't just drop to a move from Band and still beats Scarf pretty easily. It's not just Scarf that Tyrantrum can do, and I want to make sure everyone fully understands that as I feel that was a major misconception during the last Tyrantrum suspect test.
 

I've been playing RU a lot more lately and feel like I have a decent enough grasp on the tier to talk about this. I'm just gonna talk about megalix here since I have more experience using and facing it, but I'll ladder up with some scarf ttrum HO and post on that a bit later.


Starting off with megalix, this thing is a monster and it is one of the most unhealthy mons that I have seen in a semi-balanced tier in a long time. Nothing else determines so much in the metagame as megalix, in fact nothing even comes close (bar mayyybe tyrantrum). If you think about current metagame trends, almost every single magneton runs magnet rise+hp water/fire solely to trap steelix and eliminate it for your team. While this is a cool trapper, forcing a mon to use up two of its moveslots literally just for trapping you when there's a million other things that it can do is frankly retarded. Bringing up another example, offensive normal types are pretty much completely dead in the tier because steelix is omnipresent and they literally can do nothing to touch it. Obviously there are other steels like registeel that stop these mons from excelling, but steelix is so good and splashable that there's haardly no reason to use any other mega aside from the occasional mega camel on trick room and mega glalie on bare bones HO. Not only does megalix have insanely good defensive presence with base 230 Defense, but it also has amazing offensive presence with an impressive base 125 attack, and 2 very spammable STAB moves in heavy slam and earthquake. Offense has to rely on Gurdurr to switch into this thing reliably and literally NOTHING ELSE (can provide calcs to back up my claim if you guys want). Once again going to how restricting this thing is for the metagame, fairies are hardly seen nowadays aside from diancie since megalix is so good and having a steel weakness is frankly a terrible trait to have atm. Aromatisse is frankly shit atm and megalix alone makes it so that 99% of teams really shouldn't consider using it. The fact that a mon can come in and take like 35% from mega glalie's refrig boosted double edge and threaten to kill a mon on the opposing team if they click the wrong mon is really stupid considering that this is a defensively oriented mon. With megalix, you have to run at least 2 or 3 legitimate checks for it or else it can easily overwhelm your team and run through your squad like a hot knife through butter, and it has so many utility and offensive options at its disprosal that is can still end up winning games because of how good it is both defensively and offensively. If you want to simpify things a bit, megalix is way too bulky while having too much offensive presence and constricts teambuilding in the tier that it is an unhealthy influence and needs to be banned for the good of the tier.

If any of my points seem unclear or you want to ask about them, feel free to, and I will be happy to reply :] (provided that you do it in a respectful matter)

Edit: Me when laddering
 
Last edited:

Lord Death Man

i cant read
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I think the issue with both mons is that they're both so incredible at what they do with just one set that people hyperfocus on those sets while teambuilding, which ultimately ends up creating teams that can, of course, beat that one set. However, I think Mega Steelix and Tyrantrum are quite a bit more than that one set. Last time we suspected Tyrantrum, it felt like people completely dismissed the legitimacy of the terrifying band set because we were sort of suspecting it on the merits of the scarf set alone, which I still think is absolutely ridiculous. Most of Tyrantrum's sets are good.

As an example, the Dragon Dance set is often considered bad - it's slow, has limited set up oppurtunities, and is generally outclassed by the scarf set.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 120 HP / 136+ Def Alomomola: 464-547 (92.6 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tyrantrum Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 213-252 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tyrantrum Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 312-369 (85.7 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 289-341 (75.4 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

How hard is it actually to wear down these common Tyrantrum "checks" into OHKO range? Now, I know Adamant is generally considered a relatively poor pick for Dragon Dance, but I personally disagree with it, because Jolly Tyrantrum doesn't have a particularly good shot at sweeping anyway, but +1 adamant is a terrifying wallbreaker. And this is what a bad set can do; demolish many semi-stall cores with a single free turn and a very small amount of chip damage - barely more than rocks if they have a Mola+Registeel core. The calc versus Granbull was to show how well this single set completely smashes Spirit's semi-stall team mid/late game, a team I think is beyond ready for scarf, but is terrified of a LO Dragon Dance set getting a single free turn and can be somewhat reliant on using protect on Mola/Regi to scout Band's move. Now, the team doesn't strictly lose to this set, and has plenty of options versus it, but it's still very easily put into a corner by it.

Regarding Steelix; While I honestly feel Mega Steelix has gotten worse lately, it's still often my first pick when teambuilding, and many of my teams improve considerably when I change my SR user to Mega Steelix. The main set I tend to teambuild with lately is like max hp/8 defense/some speed/rest attack, adamant. I personally don't feel a lot of people are ready to be hit harder by Steelix, and it often feels like several ""counters"" to Steelix - such as that Substitute Rotom-N set - are ev'd solely to take on standard and rapidly fold to more offensive variants. I think Tehy's Resttalk set is absolutely amazing for this reason as well, and also because Mega Steelix has pretty good synergy with other rockers to begin with. The popularity of Toxic has introduced a handful of semi-reliable answers if they get in safely - Magneton and the aforementioned Rotom-N come to mind - but both of them can easily be rendered unreliable if Steelix has Roar over Toxic, which I think is another testament to how difficult it can be to counter Steelix on a teambuilding level. Plenty of stuff offensively checks it, sure, but very very little offensively counters it, and the few that sort of do seem to be incredibly unpopular, which makes me question their ability to truly take on Lix (mons I'm thinking of as counters are like Tangrowth and Rotom-C, stuff that switches in essentially for free and forces it out 100%). Despite me disliking Steelix's prescence, I sort of understand why people want it to stick around, but I disagree that it should.

I want some more perspective on Lix and about 90% sure I'm voting Ban, but I'm definately voting Ban on Tyrantrum.
 
Well Tyrantrum is good in the RU metagame SINCE its S rank in RU but i dont think it should be banned.

It has shitty Sp.Def and mediocre speed and if you run a RP set you might not have a chance to set up since Scald is very common and it can burn tyrantrum if its not carrying Lum Berry (which is rare)

Also Blastoise can tank a Head Smash and 2HKO it w/ Scald and cripple it w/ a burn.

Mega Lix however can take scalds but its afraid of getting burned.

So Im considering Tyrantrum to Not Be Banned whereas I want Mega Lix to NOT Be Banned

Mainly because they do have counters to them and have flaws themselves and can be checked by Pokemon in the RU metagame like Blastoise since Scald will cripple it
 

zbr

rendered asunder
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Well Tyrantrum is good in the RU metagame SINCE its S rank in RU but i dont think it should be banned.

It has shitty Sp.Def and mediocre speed and if you run a RP set you might not have a chance to set up since Scald is very common and it can burn tyrantrum if its not carrying Lum Berry (which is rare)

Also Blastoise can tank a Head Smash and 2HKO it w/ Scald and cripple it w/ a burn.

Mega Lix however can take scalds but its afraid of getting burned.

So Im considering Tyrantrum to Not Be Banned whereas I want Mega Lix to NOT Be Banned

Mainly because they do have counters to them and have flaws themselves and can be checked by Pokemon in the RU metagame like Blastoise since Scald will cripple it
you're talking as if scald is some miracle holy water that inflicts burn to the unholy beast named tyrantrum 100% of the time. sure scald's burn rate is approximately 99% to those players who are more favored by luck but do you rly want a game to be dictated by whether you hit scald burns or not? I'd argue that the sheer fact that you brought up the necessity to tank a hit before bringing up a 30% chance to burn indicates highly that we have an issue here. further more, lix can easily tox the toise/insert switch ins here and trum can easily just switch out and wait for round 2. so i think by that logic, perhaps banning them would be a cleaner option.

not that i completely agree with the idea of banning them (still laddering at this point tho i've been sticking my nose into ru for a good amount of time), i just feel that it's extremely messy to opt to suspect these two at the same time since they are not substitutes. lix helps keep trum in check (along with many other offensive threats) which allows for it to rise in usage and since the only thing that pretty much keeps trum in check is lix and praying your holy water burns the evil that is trum, it seems as if suspecting the both of them at the same time seems very messy. ofc those are just thoughts that can be taken with a pinch of salt.

like what the god of ru ldm said, the bandtrum set is actually incredible and help stuff like scarf fightings to clean up the game later. all you really need to do is just place a bible on top of your keyboard and pray that smash doesn't miss and literally it can break down teams in a matter of a click. lix is a case of a one man army solving many of ru problems (except for majority of teams lacking fucking ground resists) and it is the easy way to go for teambuilding. need a rocker? mlix. need a tox user? mlix. need a roarer? mlix. need something that can act as an offensive pressure while wearing down checks for other shit like trum to break the team down? mlix. yes, many things can offensively check it and very very little things can effectively offensively counter mlix without being a one trick pony, but that doesn't mean it creates a negative effect when it comes from a match point of view since it doesn't hinder skillful playing as games in ru are still often dictated by who is the smarter player rather than just who is the more smarter mlix player (oh and which team has more ground immunes since this tier is riddled with teams that are devoid of ground immunes). if we are opting to remove mlix, it should be that it opens up our viewpoint to many other things that can do mlix's job (albeit not as good) which would then reduce the tendency of lazy teambuilding.

so what do we want for the tier? for trum, i think it should've been dropped to pokehell from the last suspect test alr but for god knows what reason it stayed in the tier. however for mlix, im not too sure. its important for us to step out of our comfort zone when it comes to competitive gaming and further evolution of the metagame so i think that mlix should be banned just for the sheer fact that it reduces the tendency of lazy teambuilding.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
The thing I don't understand with the Mega Steelix argument is that "it beats it checks with Toxic" but can't this same logic be applied to any other bulky tank in the tier? I mean its a very common status move and certain bulky walls like Blastoise run Refresh anyways to counteract it (and its not just Toxic MegaLix, status in general since its really common in RU). I really don't believe that status move wearing down your opponent is really considered "beating its checks" since Mega Lix does not really have the overall sustainability to stay in on toxic count turns anyways due to it being easily worn down. I just don't understand this argument.
 

Lord Death Man

i cant read
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I don't really support that claim bc a lot of things can ""beat"" checks with Toxic like you said, but I think it's because things that "should" check Mega Steelix, such as Slowking, don't really function properly when hit with Toxic because Mega Steelix already hits very hard and it's checks are already incredibly vulnerable at a teambuilding stage because of how good Steelix is at taking on the majority of the meta. I would consider it similar to how some Mega Camerupt use Toxic, except Steelix has much more staying power and much less power. Also a Toxic'd Alomomola/Slowking/Tangrowth is really much easier to pressure, while the only notable Refresh user, Blastoise, is still pressed into pressing Refresh at some point because sitting on a Toxic when you rely on lefties for recovery sucks a lot. Essentially every Heal Bell user is weak to either Heavy Slam or Earthquake as well. Toxic lets the Steelix user control the pace of the match on a deeper level than most users of Toxic.

Mainly, though, it's because Steelix hits pretty hard and adding Toxic to the mix makes it really, really hard to actually continously pressure throughout the match. Even though this is what a good wall should be doing anyways, not all of them have the same set of characteristics to really "force" plays the way Steelix does.
 
I don't really support that claim bc a lot of things can ""beat"" checks with Toxic like you said, but I think it's because things that "should" check Mega Steelix, such as Slowking, don't really function properly when hit with Toxic because Mega Steelix already hits very hard and it's checks are already incredibly vulnerable at a teambuilding stage because of how good Steelix is at taking on the majority of the meta. I would consider it similar to how some Mega Camerupt use Toxic, except Steelix has much more staying power and much less power. Also a Toxic'd Alomomola/Slowking/Tangrowth is really much easier to pressure, while the only notable Refresh user, Blastoise, is still pressed into pressing Refresh at some point because sitting on a Toxic when you rely on lefties for recovery sucks a lot. Essentially every Heal Bell user is weak to either Heavy Slam or Earthquake as well. Toxic lets the Steelix user control the pace of the match on a deeper level than most users of Toxic.

Mainly, though, it's because Steelix hits pretty hard and adding Toxic to the mix makes it really, really hard to actually continously pressure throughout the match. Even though this is what a good wall should be doing anyways, not all of them have the same set of characteristics to really "force" plays the way Steelix does.
I think the Toxic argument could apply to Alomomola, except trading heavy hitting for reliable recovery and Regenerator. Thus, I don't think "it can beat things that are supposed to beat it with Toxic" isn't a great argument because it applies to anything that carries toxic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top