Metagame NP: RU Stage 2.5: Kids (READ POST #265)

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Woops, it survives it tho, I promise!
Just for all the unbelievers:

252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Samurott: 264-312 (73.1 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And since we have been speaking about Yanmega so much recently, I figure I will share my favorite counter to it: Rotom-Fan:

Rotom-Fan @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 216 HP / 252 SpD / 40 Spe
Calm Nature
- Air Slash
- Thunderbolt/Volt Switch
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp

As popular as Rotom-Mow is in RU, I fully believe the forme with the double ground immunity stands above. It's typing and natural bulk allows it to check threats on both sides of the coin, helped even further by Will-O-Wisp for threats such as Hitmonlee, Braviary, and Doublade, while still being able to dish out respectable damage. Pain Split further extends its lifespan, even more so if you predict them to switch into a high/full health 'Mon.

And for those wondering how strong he counters Yanmega:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 216 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-S: 152-180 (51.5 - 61%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Ancient Power vs. 216 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-S: 136-162 (46.1 - 54.9%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Rotom-S Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yanmega: 320-380 (101.9 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With the IV's, the 40 Speed allows to outspeed base 90's, namely Moltres and Golbat. I personally use Thunderbolt over Volt Switch, both for the ability to 100% kill Yanmegas, and due to the fact I typically prefer to stay in.
 

Mew2

Sex is overrated
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Just for all the unbelievers:

252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Samurott: 264-312 (73.1 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And since we have been speaking about Yanmega so much recently, I figure I will share my favorite counter to it: Rotom-Fan:

Rotom-Fan @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 216 HP / 252 SpD / 40 Spe
Calm Nature
- Air Slash
- Thunderbolt/Volt Switch
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp

As popular as Rotom-Mow is in RU, I fully believe the forme with the double ground immunity stands above. It's typing and natural bulk allows it to check threats on both sides of the coin, helped even further by Will-O-Wisp for threats such as Hitmonlee, Braviary, and Doublade, while still being able to dish out respectable damage. Pain Split further extends its lifespan, even more so if you predict them to switch into a high/full health 'Mon.

And for those wondering how strong he counters Yanmega:


With the IV's, the 40 Speed allows to outspeed base 90's, namely Moltres and Golbat. I personally use Thunderbolt over Volt Switch, both for the ability to 100% kill Yanmegas, and due to the fact I typically prefer to stay in.
What an original way of dealing with Yanmega! Unfortunate, I don't think that Rotom-S is a reliable counter becuase he NEEDS to be at 100% health to counter Yanmega and if SR are up it can't even acomplish that task.
 
Underrated you say?


Swellow @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Brave Bird
- Quick Attack
- U-turn

Why is this thing not used more! it's one of the best late-game sweepers and also functions as a wallbreaker. Swellow is so fast, the only two relevant things that outspeed it unboosted are Jolteon and Accelgor, and it can outspeed Jolt if it runs the SubPass set. :o

But really, this thing is so powerful and fast, I love it. It outspeeds and OHKO's most fast offensive pokemon in the tier, and as such is a perfect check to HO teams. I paired it with SR support but Swellow loves spikes, turning 2HKO's into crucial OHKO's.

It does have downsides thou, it's worn down very fast (Fuck you protect stalling mons) and needs a turn to activate the orb.

also this needs more love:


Magneton @ Eviolite
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Flash Cannon

Best. Pivot. Ever. It;s amazing defensive typing backed by eviolite gives it a lot of switchin opportunities, switching in on stuff like Aroma, Swellow, Fletch, Yanmega and more, and then VoltSwitching back out into a different mon *Ahem* Swellow *ahem*. If they have a ground-type, just choose Flash Cannon and watch Rhyperior and Friends die. HP Grass is for Gastrodon and the rare Seismitoad.

The fun thing about this set is that most people expect a scarf or a specs set, and they will go into something that will mos likely be immune/resist the chosen move, only find themselves getting KO'd by the other move.

You can run speed to outrun zero speed Gligar and the like, but I prefer the more bulky set.

Downsides are that it has no recovery, it's fairly slow and it has that big 4x weakness to ground.

where is Shake with his Arbok
 
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tfw first comes first with scarf lee.

I've used it on a terrible team but I quickly replaced it with standard LO Lee. It really doesn't help with any matchups that Lee already struggles with, and he is much easier to switch into. That was my issues with him <_>
The terrible team actually started to work at that point too v_v
 

RufflesPro

formerly Professional2341
Alright so I've been using this and it's great:


Sandslash @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Atk / 60 Def / 48 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

This thing is definitely as good as a spinner as Hitmonlee and one of the best rock-setters in the game.

Simply because this is pretty much the only thing [Other than EQ Claydol?] that cannot be spinblocked by Doublade, I mean it does get spinblocked but EQ 3HKO-es and can actually eat up Doublade's attacks, not to mention it can 2HKO Registeel so Registeel cannot set up rocks on it or if it did you can spin them. And is immune to Registeel's T-wave :]

148+ Atk Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 132-156 (40.9 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Sandslash: 111-132 (31.3 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

148+ Atk Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Registeel Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Sandslash: 60-72 (16.9 - 20.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
Registeel Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Sandslash: 100-100 (28.2 - 28.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

If you happen to have Sandslash at max HP then you can even prevent Hitmonlee from Spinning by pressuring the kill

252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Sandslash: 298-352 (84.1 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
148+ Atk Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 228-268 (94.2 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO [Guaranteed after rocks or LO damage]

I don't know why but most bronzongs I'm seeing are Heatproof but even if they are Levitate

148+ Atk Sandslash Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 158-186 (46.7 - 55%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Sandslash: 57-68 (16.1 - 19.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (45 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Sandslash: 39-46 (11 - 12.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

But if it did have Heatproof:

148+ Atk Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 242-288 (71.5 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even Claydol has trouble spinning:

148+ Atk Sandslash Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Claydol: 170-202 (52.4 - 62.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Claydol Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Sandslash: 70-84 (19.7 - 23.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

I have been using this on more than one team and it's amazing.
 
Alright so I've been using this and it's great:


Sandslash @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Atk / 60 Def / 48 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

This thing is definitely as good as a spinner as Hitmonlee and one of the best rock-setters in the game.

Simply because this is pretty much the only thing [Other than EQ Claydol?] that cannot be spinblocked by Doublade, I mean it does get spinblocked but EQ 3HKO-es and can actually eat up Doublade's attacks, not to mention it can 2HKO Registeel so Registeel cannot set up rocks on it or if it did you can spin them. And is immune to Registeel's T-wave :]

148+ Atk Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 132-156 (40.9 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Sandslash: 111-132 (31.3 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

148+ Atk Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Registeel Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Sandslash: 60-72 (16.9 - 20.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
Registeel Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Sandslash: 100-100 (28.2 - 28.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

If you happen to have Sandslash at max HP then you can even prevent Hitmonlee from Spinning by pressuring the kill

252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Sandslash: 298-352 (84.1 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
148+ Atk Sandslash Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 228-268 (94.2 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO [Guaranteed after rocks or LO damage]

I don't know why but most bronzongs I'm seeing are Heatproof but even if they are Levitate

148+ Atk Sandslash Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 158-186 (46.7 - 55%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Sandslash: 57-68 (16.1 - 19.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (45 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Sandslash: 39-46 (11 - 12.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

But if it did have Heatproof:

148+ Atk Sandslash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 242-288 (71.5 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even Claydol has trouble spinning:

148+ Atk Sandslash Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Claydol: 170-202 (52.4 - 62.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Claydol Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Sandslash: 70-84 (19.7 - 23.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

I have been using this on more than one team and it's amazing.
I have to agree with you because Sandslash is a surprisingly effective Pokemon (and a fantastic reason to stop using Claydol i'd add) as it can spin against most of the tier with ease (especially against balanced teams) and its physical bulk makes it a decent check to common Stealth Rock setters like Bronzong, Rhyperior, Cobalion, and Druddigon and thanks to Knock Off and Earthquake it can also deter Defog users like Skuntank and Gligar (who obviously hates losing eviolite) from coming in for free. Not to mention that after Stealth Rock and Knock off Damage it has a decent chance of OHKOing a roosting Golbat. I have also tried a more offensive spinning set with Max Speed and Swords Dance over Stealth Rock that can OHKO offensive Cofagrigus and Spiritomb at +2 while greatly threatening all the Stealth Rock setters.
 
Underrated you say?]


Magneton @ Eviolite
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Flash Cannon

Best. Pivot. Ever. It;s amazing defensive typing backed by eviolite gives it a lot of switchin opportunities, switching in on stuff like Aroma, Swellow, Fletch, Yanmega and more, and then VoltSwitching back out into a different mon *Ahem* Swellow *ahem*. If they have a ground-type, just choose Flash Cannon and watch Rhyperior and Friends die. HP Grass is for Gastrodon and the rare Seismitoad.

The fun thing about this set is that most people expect a scarf or a specs set, and they will go into something that will mos likely be immune/resist the chosen move, only find themselves getting KO'd by the other move.

You can run speed to outrun zero speed Gligar and the like, but I prefer the more bulky set.

Downsides are that it has no recovery, it's fairly slow and it has that big 4x weakness to ground.

where is Shake with his Arbok
If you were to run enough speed to outspeed Gligar I would run HP Ice > HP Grass and then pair Magneton with something else to handle Rhyperior/Gastrodon/Seismitoad. Torterra comes to mind as a great check to all of these as it is neutral to Sludge Wave from Seismitoad and resists Ground-type moves for Magneton. Lilligant could work too if you give it HP Fire for Ferro/Esca.
 
Although I haven't played RU since the Shuckle test, I'm dropping by from playing way too many UU games to let you guys know that there's a serious possibility that Alomomola will be rising to UU for the first time. That is all.
And maybe even Aromatisse since it is one of the best defensive stops to Haxorus... Man, RU would be such a different tier when they are gone and Houndoom drops... Lol
 

Molk

Godlike Usmash
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Although I haven't played RU since the Shuckle test, I'm dropping by from playing way too many UU games to let you guys know that there's a serious possibility that Alomomola will be rising to UU for the first time. That is all.
| 94 | Aromatisse | 0.86443% | 4754 | 0.616% | 3864 | 0.610% |

| 72 | Alomomola | 1.53816% | 6821 | 0.884% | 5674 | 0.895% |

these are the stats used for tiering from last month, both of them have a pretty high weighting (they should), but they aren't really anywhere near the cutoff at the moment unless theres a massive shift this month.

As for the 1760+ stats and everything.

| 72 | Aromatisse | 1.96626% | 4754 | 0.616% | 3864 | 0.610% |

| 57 | Alomomola | 3.47076% | 6821 | 0.884% | 5674 | 0.895% |

even if we used the 1760 stats for tiering (as far as i know UU is still using 1630), only Alomomola would have real chances of moving up.

You have to remember, even with weighting taken into account, the bad still outweighs the good when it comes to number of games played. For every good player running Alomomola or Aromatisse, there are like 800 bad players not using them and choking out their usage. For example, look at RU last generation. Golurk, Alomomola, and Tauros all recieved usage in RU's higher level play during BW2, yet never moved up by usage even when weighted stats were introduced, and that was in a much less active tier than XY UU is now. I saw Golurk and Alomomola on the ladder all the time, yet they still didnt move up by usage somehow.

A bunch of people kept saying Qwilfish would rise to UU in pretty much every tier shift in BW, it never did for the reasons presented here.
 
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pokeisfun

UU player and community member
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I would like to caution you guys in giving Yanmega and or Zoroark a suspicious exam since if both of them leave the tier Cresselia will be even more potent than she already is. Counters will still exist of course but that's to be expected of such a defensive Pokemon. Cresselia has the tools needed to cripple counters too as they come in despite still losing to them.
 

phantom

is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
RU Leader
That point isn't even the least bit relevant. Even if for whatever reason Cresselia were to be OP as a result of Zoro and Yan leaving (which I'm rather skeptical of), then Cresselia should be booted out soon after. In any case, so long as Knock Off is still a thing, I don't see Cresselia being broken anytime soon. That's not to mention that there's still a bunch of good Bug / Ghosts / Darks to keep it in line. This reasoning is just very silly. If there exist broken Pokemon, you remove them, regardless of whatever balancing effect they might have, and it should be evident that the tier will change significantly once a metagame defining threat exits anyway.
 
The thing with cress is that we banned it last gen because the thing would not die in one hit iirc sure the times have been tough with knock off and toxic on every mon nowadays but still I mean if zoro and yanmega league it does have a decent probability of getting suspected if you ask me. Basically this gen it's easier to handle but the conditions of not being to one shot the thing unless you're Durant (cause he was uu when cress was banned i think)
 
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Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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The thing with cress is that we banned it last gen because the thing would not die in one hit iirc sure the times have been tough with knock off and toxic on every mom nowadays but still I mean if zoro and yanmega league it does have a decent probability of getting suspected if you ask me. Basically this gen it's easier to handle but the conditions of not being to one shot the thing unless you're Durant (cause he was uu when cress was banned)
I remember in the first couple of weeks how good Cress was at getting up a sub and calm minding all over things. Also iirc it could take a lot of knock offs from various non stabbed pokemon (not break the sub is what i mean). Of course this is all just theorying about Cress becoming really good, we will have to wait for the meta to settle if Zoro and Yan leave. And I think auto correct sort of screwed you over on the words you wanted to use friend.
 

pokeisfun

UU player and community member
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
That point isn't even the least bit relevant. Even if for whatever reason Cresselia were to be OP as a result of Zoro and Yan leaving (which I'm rather skeptical of), then Cresselia should be booted out soon after. In any case, so long as Knock Off is still a thing, I don't see Cresselia being broken anytime soon. That's not to mention that there's still a bunch of good Bug / Ghosts / Darks to keep it in line. This reasoning is just very silly. If there exist broken Pokemon, you remove them, regardless of whatever balancing effect they might have, and it should be evident that the tier will change significantly once a metagame defining threat exits anyway.

I apologize for not being clear what I meant was beware of how powerful Cresselia is going to be if these guys get banned; I never meant to say you guys shouldn't ban these Yanmega and Zoroark because of potential effects on Cresselia.

Why are you tiering the way you do? It is just because Smogon tiers have always been arranged based on a certain usage and then whatever was deemed broken among a group of Pokemon were banned. So you've always been going along with it, never questioning, just enjoying the game I am sure.

But that's why you and 99% of the people here play Pokemon; for fun. So we make tiering for fun. But fun is completely subjective. So tiering is completely subjective. You guys have no standards, nothing concrete, every single principle I see here on Smogon has been contradicted one way or another by a different decision and that is perfectly ok because you're nearly all playing competitively for fun. So I ask you please not to bash what you perceived was my line of reasoning (I wasn't really arguing that point as I mentioned above) as "not the least bit relevant" or "just very silly". If a large majority of players/the tiering leaders (depending on how tiers are made in that particular tier) enjoy a metagame with Zoroark and Yanmega they will surely stay. If they don't enjoy it but know they will enjoy a metagame with a strong Cresselia even more then Yanmega and Zoroark will surely stay or something will be done about Cresselia. That is all there is to tiering really, in my opinion.
 
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phantom

is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
RU Leader
I apologize for not being clear what I meant was beware of how powerful Cresselia is going to be if these guys get banned; I never meant to say you guys shouldn't ban these Yanmega and Zoroark because of potential effects on Cresselia.
Here's the thing:

You made some statements such as, "will be even more potent than she already is" and followed that up by saying that it "has the tools to cripple counters too". I don't know about you, but you made some pretty strong implications that Cresselia, an already A rank threat, will be more potent and has the capability to beat its counters. To me, that sounded like you suggested it would be broken. Apparently that wasn't what you meant. If that's the case, then I do have to question what exactly was the purpose of that post? Was it a simple observation (an already obvious one that anyone could have guessed) or did you really think that Cresselia would theoretically be broken with Zoroark and Yanmega gone and then retracted that sentiment when you got called out on it?
Why are you tiering the way you do?
What do you mean? I think broken Pokemon should be removed regardless of their influence. Its been proven in past gens that you can remove all the outliers and create a stable and balanced metagame. I don't understand what's so wrong with wanting something like this or why you choose to label me under the follower mentality. If you have a problem with other people thinking differently than you, then you're gonna run into far more problems elsewhere than you do on here.
If a large majority of players/the tiering leaders (depending on how tiers are made in that particular tier) enjoy a metagame with Zoroark and Yanmega they will surely stay.
I'm pretty sure a large majority of people have enjoyed using Blaziken and Mega Kangaskhan in OU, but they got banned regardless due to the fact that they were overpowered. Your logic doesn't follow.
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
If Cress become a thing again I could see Escav rising in usage again. This might just be me, but I havent seen as much of Escavalier as I used to. But seeing as Escav resists both Psychic and Moonblast (this is what I ran for the best coverage on a CM sub/moonlight set)[If you have a better set for coverage feel free to let me know] it pretty much counters Cress, especially the AV version.
 
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