Metagame NP: RU Stage 6 - I wanna be your dog (Light Clay banned)

[EviGaro]

Hlelo everyone, after the Slowbro-Galar quickban, the RU Council agreed to proceed on the next thing on the agenda and so we now have a Zygarde-10% suspect test.

Zygarde-10%, more affectionately named Zydog or Zog, was the first pokemon listed for a suspect in the survey we recently made and published. While we delayed a bit to finally proceed on Slowbro-Galar through an unanimous quickban, we decided to move forward here with a more tradtional suspect test. Zydog's strengths are significant, but not necessarily reliant on bordeline gamebreaking or simply aiming to get secondary effects. What you see with Zydog is essentially what you get on a consistent basis, so it's more appropriate to keep our regular process for it.

What do you get though? Well as named in the survey post. Zygarde-10% is highly reliant on one simple set, with variations coming mostly from its move selection. Thousand Arrows need no introduction, it was the basis for the suspect tests it went through in SM, why its 50% form was banned twice from OU and why we are suspecting it now. But it could also be said that Zydog excel right now due to its coverage being able to cut through a lot of the options. Superpower, Stone Edge, Outrage all have the potential to break Zydog switchins, especially with bulky grasses being either limited in function (like Tangela) or unable to stomach two Outrages - like Dhelmise, Celebi, or Zarude - . Reliance on Outrage does turn your Zydog in a risky gamble but the raw power is often appreciated. Choice Band is thus the only set of real note, and while some experimentation is being made with others, Life Orb especially, the main appeal of this pokemon is to eventually get into a position where Thousand Arrows cannot be dealt with sacks, and recoil hurts in that regard.

Another big deal this gen compared to SM is that while Zydog is far more linear without z-moves, the complaints about it exist with pretty much every playstyle. Hard Stall probably has the best time vs it, though it has to be wary of some good predictions, but everything else can say facing this is not really pleasant. HO is extremely worried about its potent Espeed to countersweep, on top of common spikes paired with it, and other styles in between need a surefire switchin to Arrows and something to take advantage of any possible lock.

The last point is probably where some of the opposition to a ban would go too, however. Zygarde-10%'s need to be locked in to perform at its best is a potential hindrance that is not without note. For example, a Sharpedo / Mimikyu HO will inevitably aim at exploiting the lock problem to clean late game with either of the two. In ssnls for example, I took advantage of a superpower lock to clean the game with Doublade. It's not impossible, and lock mindgames aren't totally lopsided, which can make Zydog go for safer Thousand Arrows and an opponent to pivot adequately knowing going for broke is extremely risky. However, the counter here would be that this still presents large problems in the builder, where you have to adequately prepare two or three slots for this strategy to perform very well in games. Finally, its speed is really significant for this tier, tying with Raikou and being commonly outsped by the few fast birds, which is another boon it has over SM.

So, what do you think? Is Zydog - finally - worthy of being banned via suspect? Are the flaws still too obvious, and the tier can adapt to it in a way that it struggles to do as effectively? It's up to you to decide! Tagging Marty and Kris to announce it on the ladder, thank you!

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
78	50
78.2	49
78.4	48
78.6	47
78.8	46
79	45
79.2	44
79.4	43
79.6	42
79.8	41
80	40
80.2	39
80.4	38
80.6	37
80.8	36
81	35
81.2	34
81.4	33
81.6	32
81.8	31
82	30

Suspect information:

• Turnout was significantly better for the Thundurus-I suspect, therefore we are keeping the same requirements for this suspect test.
• There will be no draws allowed for any potential qualifiers. If you qualify with draws, your suspect requirements will not count and you will not be allowed to vote. There is no way to actively enforce ties to prevent abuse, so they will be disallowed. Use stall at your own risk.
• All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! RU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "RUZ9 (nickname)”. For example, RUZ9 AirSlash or RUZ9 CBTA
• Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokemon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
• The suspect test will last for two weeks, ending on Sunday, March 14th, 23:59 EST

/!\ NOTICE /!\ RU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. For more query feel free to PM me or phantom.

Happy laddering!

secret

 

[ssss@defrrvdd]

I personally believe that it should be banned coil sets can slowly chip with sub to block status and to beat it you need to know the set for example a banded outrage can on hit ko specs xurkitree but if scarf it kills it and if it is banded thousand can 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 174-206 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO if max defense it can be abused by volcanion and pressure calm mind vincune if coil with sub it block status if it is dragon dance it blitz by specs (which is more on the fringe side) noivern and outrage 252 Atk Life Orb Zygarde-10% Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Noivern: 507-601 (163 - 193.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO it is an incredibly opressive pokemon that scarf zarude is the most reliable check but it loses to coil set or banded with a decent move pool if I qualified i would vote ban

 

[Fabi_ODST]

I don't know if I will get reqs in time to be able to vote, but at least I can give my thoughts on the suspect:

In my opinion, a mon can be broken in various ways. It can pass trough every single check using a limited amount of moves, it can be so overwhelming that nothing can check it, or it's existence invalidates one or more playstyles. In the case of the dog, it doesn't fit one of these categories perfectly, but partially fills two of them:

1. Pass trough its checks: due to the nature of thousand arrows, most ground inmunities are bad checks to zydog, leaving a small group of mons capable of switching and forcing it out, but even those can fall depending on the set:

A bit niche, but defensive cloyster with wish support can effectively check zydog with ice shard, forcing it out and gaining momentum with teleport. Sadly, it can't switch repeatedly to its coverage moves (being 2HKO by superpower and close to by stone edge)

I would say bulky waters are the way to best check the dog, as they avoid being 2HKO by any of their coverage moves. You need to scout for outrage in milotic's case though, so be careful.

The literal definition of an emergency check, specially for offense given the prevalence of extreme speed (I will touch on this a bit later). The hard part is mantaining the disguise during a match against a person that knows what they are doing, so it's far from perfect

Using a max hp spread you avoid the 2HKO from thousand arrows and have a chance to KO with photon geyser after rocks damage. It's a shaky check at best though, being bopped by outrage and skitter smack

This is basically milotic but more defensive. I have seen some people using both scald and ice beam on the same set just to deal with the dog, which should be an indicator of the effect that mon has on teambuilding. Cresselia would also fit a similar place here with moonblast

The fact some dogs started using skitter smack just for this mon should speak volumes. It's just a good thousand arrows abuser, I wouldn't call it a good check. Celebi also fits in this category.

I know there are some other more niche mons that can also do a decent job at checking zydog (tangela and sableye come to mind), but I think my point stands: it's very hard to really check this mon, specially for offense. Thousand arrows and extreme speed are the only moves I would call mandatory, leaving you with 2 coverage options to select what checks you and cover it with the rest of your team.
This, combined with the option for setup in dragon dance and coil (less common, but can catch teams off guard) makes it a really hard mon to deal overall, being very volatile and constricting at teambuilding.

TL;DR: I would bote BAN for zydog given its ability to go trough its checks and due to its constrains on offensive playstyles

 

[ssss@defrrvdd]

I don't know if I will get reqs in time to be able to vote, but at least I can give my thoughts on the suspect:

In my opinion, a mon can be broken in various ways. It can pass trough every single check using a limited amount of moves, it can be so overwhelming that nothing can check it, or it's existence invalidates one or more playstyles. In the case of the dog, it doesn't fit one of these categories perfectly, but partially fills two of them:

1. Pass trough its checks: due to the nature of thousand arrows, most ground inmunities are bad checks to zydog, leaving a small group of mons capable of switching and forcing it out, but even those can fall depending on the set:

View attachment 320154
A bit niche, but defensive cloyster with wish support can effectively check zydog with ice shard, forcing it out and gaining momentum with teleport. Sadly, it can't switch repeatedly to its coverage moves (being 2HKO by superpower and close to by stone edge)

View attachment 320155
I would say bulky waters are the way to best check the dog, as they avoid being 2HKO by any of their coverage moves. You need to scout for outrage in milotic's case though, so be careful.
View attachment 320156
The literal definition of an emergency check, specially for offense given the prevalence of extreme speed (I will touch on this a bit later). The hard part is mantaining the disguise during a match against a person that knows what they are doing, so it's far from perfect
View attachment 320157
Using a max hp spread you avoid the 2HKO from thousand arrows and have a chance to KO with photon geyser after rocks damage. It's a shaky check at best though, being bopped by outrage and skitter smack
View attachment 320158
This is basically milotic but more defensive. I have seen some people using both scald and ice beam on the same set just to deal with the dog, which should be an indicator of the effect that mon has on teambuilding. Cresselia would also fit a similar place here with moonblast
View attachment 320159
The fact some dogs started using skitter smack just for this mon should speak volumes. It's just a good thousand arrows abuser, I wouldn't call it a good check. Celebi also fits in this category.

I know there are some other more niche mons that can also do a decent job at checking zydog (tangela and sableye come to mind), but I think my point stands: it's very hard to really check this mon, specially for offense. Thousand arrows and extreme speed are the only moves I would call mandatory, leaving you with 2 coverage options to select what checks you and cover it with the rest of your team.
This, combined with the option for setup in dragon dance and coil (less common, but can catch teams off guard) makes it a really hard mon to deal overall, being very volatile and constricting at teambuilding.

TL;DR: I would bote BAN for zydog given its ability to go trough its checks and due to its constrains on offensive playstyles

i totally agree

 

[A Very Gay Girl]

I don't know if I will get reqs in time to be able to vote, but at least I can give my thoughts on the suspect:

In my opinion, a mon can be broken in various ways. It can pass trough every single check using a limited amount of moves, it can be so overwhelming that nothing can check it, or it's existence invalidates one or more playstyles. In the case of the dog, it doesn't fit one of these categories perfectly, but partially fills two of them:

1. Pass trough its checks: due to the nature of thousand arrows, most ground inmunities are bad checks to zydog, leaving a small group of mons capable of switching and forcing it out, but even those can fall depending on the set:

View attachment 320154
A bit niche, but defensive cloyster with wish support can effectively check zydog with ice shard, forcing it out and gaining momentum with teleport. Sadly, it can't switch repeatedly to its coverage moves (being 2HKO by superpower and close to by stone edge)

View attachment 320155
I would say bulky waters are the way to best check the dog, as they avoid being 2HKO by any of their coverage moves. You need to scout for outrage in milotic's case though, so be careful.
View attachment 320156
The literal definition of an emergency check, specially for offense given the prevalence of extreme speed (I will touch on this a bit later). The hard part is mantaining the disguise during a match against a person that knows what they are doing, so it's far from perfect
View attachment 320157
Using a max hp spread you avoid the 2HKO from thousand arrows and have a chance to KO with photon geyser after rocks damage. It's a shaky check at best though, being bopped by outrage and skitter smack
View attachment 320158
This is basically milotic but more defensive. I have seen some people using both scald and ice beam on the same set just to deal with the dog, which should be an indicator of the effect that mon has on teambuilding. Cresselia would also fit a similar place here with moonblast
View attachment 320159
The fact some dogs started using skitter smack just for this mon should speak volumes. It's just a good thousand arrows abuser, I wouldn't call it a good check. Celebi also fits in this category.

I know there are some other more niche mons that can also do a decent job at checking zydog (tangela and sableye come to mind), but I think my point stands: it's very hard to really check this mon, specially for offense. Thousand arrows and extreme speed are the only moves I would call mandatory, leaving you with 2 coverage options to select what checks you and cover it with the rest of your team.
This, combined with the option for setup in dragon dance and coil (less common, but can catch teams off guard) makes it a really hard mon to deal overall, being very volatile and constricting at teambuilding.

TL;DR: I would bote BAN for zydog given its ability to go trough its checks and due to its constrains on offensive playstyles

Ok, this post is mostly fine, but that bit about Necrozma as a Zydog check is seriously bothering me. First off, Necrozma is only guaranteed to avoid the 2HKO from thousand arrows if it's 252HP + either boosting nature with no investment or a minimum of 84Def with a neutral nature. Granted, if Necrozma is holding Leftovers, then it technically only needs 24 Defense EVs with a neutral nature to guarantee it won't be 2HKO'd by Thousand Arrows, but my point stands. Also, if there are hazards on your side of the field when Necrozma gets sent out, good luck. After a single round of Stealth Rocks damage, or in other words 12% chip damage on entry, Necrozma needs either 152 Defense EVs with a neutral nature or 52 Defense EVs with a boosting nature to 100% avoid being 2HKO'd by Thousand Arrows after Leftovers recovery. That's only after 1 switch in on rocks, though. If there are two layers of hazards up, be they 2 layers of spikes or a layer of rocks + 1 layer of spikes, your ass is getting 2HKO'd unless you're running fully physically defensive Necrozma or you get lucky. And with 3-4 layers of hazards? Yeah... let's just say the odds aren't in your favor if you're gonna use Necrozma as a Zydog check. Here are some calcs to prove I'm not crazy:

Wall Of Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Necrozma: 183-216 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Necrozma: 183-216 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Necrozma: 178-210 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Necrozma: 166-196 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 52+ Def Necrozma: 157-186 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 152 Def Necrozma: 157-186 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma: 132-156 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma: 132-156 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

Also, regarding this line:

It's a shaky check at best though, being bopped by outrage and skitter smack

For the record, Skitter Smack does less damage to Necrozma after Prism Armor reductions to Skitter Smack and STAB bonuses to Thousand Arrows.

Skitter Smack Bad

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma: 183-216 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Skitter Smack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Necrozma: 142-168 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Outside of that though, I completely agree that Necrozma is a shaky Zydog check at best. Personally, I think it's a bit shakier than you made it out to be, but the point gets across nonetheless. Also, yes, you're right, Choice Band boosted Outrage absolutely mauls all but the bulkiest Necrozma.

lol

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma: 243-286 (72.5 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Necrozma: 243-286 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma: 175-207 (43.9 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

TL;DR: Necrozma is a bad Zydog check. End of story. The thing needs to be given a rather large amount of bulk just to function as a switch in for two turns, and even then, things get a lot more complicated when hazards are thrown into the mix. Like Mimikyu, this is an emergency check only. Not a switch in. Run Togekiss, Zarude, Celebi, or one of the bulky waters Fabi_ODST mentioned above. The best Necrozma can consistently do against Zydog is come in safely, take one hit from Thousand Arrows, and then severely dent it with Photon Geyser, but it can't do much else. Seriously, don't try to check Zydog with a Necrozma. Just don't.

 

[TheHungrySnorlax]

I've been back and forth on deciding whether Zygarde-10% is worthy of a ban, and after suspect laddering for a while in addition to thinking about it some more I think it needs to go.

It may be a bit difficult for some to understand how and why Zygarde-10% breaks the tier- after all, Pokemon that can take Thousand Arrows such as Zarude, Golisopod, and Porygon2 exist, with most of these options being fairly good in their own right within the context of the tier. While I do acknowledge the existence of 'mons that can pivot into its attacks, it's worth noting that many of said 'mons often do so by the skin of their teeth, with a notable example being Togekiss or Milotic having the capability to avoid the 2HKO from Thousand Arrows. This common scenario forces recovery from these 'mons and as a result leaves the player attempting to check Zygarde on the backfoot seeing as it gives free turns to a teammate of Zygarde's, such as Raikou or Heracross, to easily pivot in scot-free.

The factor that tips Zygarde over the edge in my eyes comes down to the fact that players are left with very little to no room for error when facing it. Specifically, one correct prediction on the Zygarde user's part, such as predicting an incoming Togekiss with Stone Edge or predicting a Dhelmise with Outrage, often leaves them in such a notable advantage where either 1.) the game may very well be decided by a single turn involving said prediction or 2.) their opponent has to make incredibly aggressive plays and correctly predict the Zygarde user every time in order to claw their way back into the game.

Notable replay featuring Zygarde-10%:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ru-544124

On turn 10, Mac3 switches his Noivern into ODR's Zygarde-10% as a midground play, not risking damage on his Togekiss and knowing he could take a Choice Banded Thousand Arrows. ODR, however, catches Mac3's Noivern with Stone Edge; although this play was likely made predicting Togekiss to switch in, this comes into play in the later turns of the battle. At turn 26, Zarude is in a relatively unfavorable position seeing as:

-If he clicks any STAB attack or attempts to heal, there's a huge risk in allowing Togekiss in for free

-If he clicks U-Turn, regardless of whether Zygarde stays in or not, he can't safely pivot his Zarude in against ODR's Zygarde again

Even in the best-case scenario where Zygarde would stay in on that turn and Zarude would KO it with Power Whip, Mac3 would still have to make aggressive double switches into his Xurkitree like he did in the ending turns of the battle to save himself from being swept by Salazzle. If he still had his Noivern around, there could have at least been that to sacrifice to Zygarde and he would've been in a better position. Although the Sludge Bomb poison on Seismitoad from Salazzle was admittedly lucky in sealing the game, the replay still does a fine job in demonstrating Zygarde's impact in practice.

Even if the Zygarde user doesn't make these correct predictions in battle and/or makes a misprediction, the fact of the matter is that Zygarde exerts so much pressure on one's opponent that the potential avenues of play made by its user are skewed in favor of them. In other words, the setback resulting from a misprediction on the Zygarde user's part is generally less significant than a scneario where Zygarde correctly predicts and nails a check with a coverage move or Outrage. In my eyes, this type of dynamic is unhealthy for the development of the tier and with all of the above taken into consideration, I truly believe that Zygarde-10% should be banned.

 

[Fabi_ODST]

TL;DR: Necrozma is a bad Zydog check. End of story. The thing needs to be given a rather large amount of bulk just to function as a switch in for two turns, and even then, things get a lot more complicated when hazards are thrown into the mix. Like Mimikyu, this is an emergency check only. Not a switch in. Run Togekiss, Zarude, Celebi, or one of the bulky waters Fabi_ODST mentioned above. The best Necrozma can consistently do against Zydog is come in safely, take one hit from Thousand Arrows, and then severely dent it with Photon Geyser, but it can't do much else. Seriously, don't try to check Zydog with a Necrozma. Just don't.

Yeah, I'm not sure what was on my mind during the necrozma part XD I should have put it alongside Mimikyu as emergency checks. To be fair though, I have seen plenty of defensive necrozma going around as a backup check to zydog, so that probably made my vision biased towards it.
Also, I assumed rocks as the only hazard in most cases, as it is the most common situation people find themselves in. Factoring spikes and t-spikes into the mix and most (if not all) checks become way shakier. Considering the rise of spikers like roserade, I should have made it more relevant during the analysis.

 

[Feliburn]

The official title of the tier:

If you get it you get it.
​

Ok so it's time for the usual tier post:

The tiger has been such a potent force in this last stretch of the meta. The common Tbolt / Aura Sphere / Volt Switch / Toxic set is SO fucking good, able to provide momentum vs anything, being able to hit common ground types like Rhyperior and Steelix w/ Aura Sphere and crippling others like Gastrodon with toxic, not to mention the fantastic speed tier, general bulk and super spammable attacks. What started like a Togekiss check has become one of the best and most annoying to deal with pivots of the tier. It's so easy to splash a Raikou on your teams and not lose anything as it fills the roles of speed control, pivot, togekiss check and status spreader. Common checks like Roserade have been facing against Extrasensory sets, NOBODY is safe.

Another momentum mon that has been on the rise, Mienshao started gaining popularity during RUPL w1 and now that slowbro is gone, it only got better. Most common set now feels like it's the Life Orb set, able to force a Knock Off on Togekiss and threaten it with Life Orb Stone Edge. It's combination of Knock + Turn from a strong, fast pokemon is so nuts, especially when you pair it with Regenerator, meaning it's able to regain the Life Orb recoil with every u-turn (unless you face Galarian Weezing). It feels like more defensive options like Vileplume, Weezing and Sylveon will start getting more usage, but it's hard to justify the last 2 when Togekiss is just that great.

One of our 2 offensive Thousand Arrows resists, Golisopod feels so great right now. It's another mon that forces pokemon like Noivern and Togekiss to take a Knock Off, removing its boots. This is huge because the moment these 2 start taking hazard damage, the more advantage the opposing side has. What pod brings to the table, besides Knock Off, is a strong, high priority bug stab that destroys most offensive teams, spikes support, it has tools like Liquidation, Leech Life and Close Combat to target different pokemon you wish weakened. It's just a very strong pokemon that got better from Slowbro-G using it as set up fodder.

Despite all odds in the Zydog meta, Roserade has felt fantastic. It's such a nice Togekiss + broken electric types check, offers spikes support, strong stabs, sleep powder, and even wack coverage like Shadow Ball for mons like Chandelure and Marowak. You wouldn't really expect this grass type to rise in viability when you really want all the resists you can get vs the dog, but pairing it with checks like Golisopod or Gastrodon can give you this leeway.

The tier preps and preps more to take down Togekiss, yet this dumb ass mon still manages to pull its weight so much it actually disgusts me. From my personal experience, most RU games with Togekiss come down to who finds better ways to chip at it slowly before being able to start breaking the team, part of the reasons why Raikou is so popular besides having amazing coverage and everything, is that it's the best offensive check to it. So many crazy sets keep appearing, people are using Grass Knot now to nuke Rhyperior, chip Gastro and damage Lix, all in one slot apparently. I still hate having to deal with Toge but it's so fucking impressive how good it is.

This mon has also been rising a bit in usage, very decent rocker. It's super fat, hits really hard, checks non aura sphere togekiss, noivern, it's a solid option to check Toxtricity when paired with a ground type. I don't really have much to say about it other than being pleasantly surprised by how it performs during games.

This mon feels like it got a bit better, seeing how the metas are all offense oriented, so people have been using less and less phasers. And once a mon as fat and good at setting up as reuni gets it rolling, it's super hard to stop for most offense teams. AV Reuni is also a decent option to check the electrics, plus the almighty knock off + future sight to help put pressure on opposing teams.

And of course...

So where does the dog stand in the meta. I still personally think it's unhealthy how specific you have to get when checking it, I don't like being that restricted in the builder. Pod is rising in usage, Zarude is still slapped everywhere, and vern can take an arrows, but honestly I don't think much has changed. If anything, the meta is so much more disastrous that having a mon like zydog forcing you to build in a specific way is just not healthy. I'd personally still vote ban just for the improvement of the meta, but I'm sure that this mon could be revisited in the future once everything is less messy.

 

[A Very Gay Girl]

I don't know if I will get reqs in time to be able to vote, but at least I can give my thoughts on the suspect:

In my opinion, a mon can be broken in various ways. It can pass trough every single check using a limited amount of moves, it can be so overwhelming that nothing can check it, or it's existence invalidates one or more playstyles. In the case of the dog, it doesn't fit one of these categories perfectly, but partially fills two of them:

1. Pass trough its checks: due to the nature of thousand arrows, most ground inmunities are bad checks to zydog, leaving a small group of mons capable of switching and forcing it out, but even those can fall depending on the set:

View attachment 320154
A bit niche, but defensive cloyster with wish support can effectively check zydog with ice shard, forcing it out and gaining momentum with teleport. Sadly, it can't switch repeatedly to its coverage moves (being 2HKO by superpower and close to by stone edge)

View attachment 320155
I would say bulky waters are the way to best check the dog, as they avoid being 2HKO by any of their coverage moves. You need to scout for outrage in milotic's case though, so be careful.
View attachment 320156
The literal definition of an emergency check, specially for offense given the prevalence of extreme speed (I will touch on this a bit later). The hard part is mantaining the disguise during a match against a person that knows what they are doing, so it's far from perfect
View attachment 320157
Using a max hp spread you avoid the 2HKO from thousand arrows and have a chance to KO with photon geyser after rocks damage. It's a shaky check at best though, being bopped by outrage and skitter smack
View attachment 320158
This is basically milotic but more defensive. I have seen some people using both scald and ice beam on the same set just to deal with the dog, which should be an indicator of the effect that mon has on teambuilding. Cresselia would also fit a similar place here with moonblast
View attachment 320159
The fact some dogs started using skitter smack just for this mon should speak volumes. It's just a good thousand arrows abuser, I wouldn't call it a good check. Celebi also fits in this category.

I know there are some other more niche mons that can also do a decent job at checking zydog (tangela and sableye come to mind), but I think my point stands: it's very hard to really check this mon, specially for offense. Thousand arrows and extreme speed are the only moves I would call mandatory, leaving you with 2 coverage options to select what checks you and cover it with the rest of your team.
This, combined with the option for setup in dragon dance and coil (less common, but can catch teams off guard) makes it a really hard mon to deal overall, being very volatile and constricting at teambuilding.

TL;DR: I would bote BAN for zydog given its ability to go trough its checks and due to its constrains on offensive playstyles

I already made the one post on Necrozma, but I forgot to point this out there so: Cresselia learns Ice Beam to OHKO Zydog. Actually, Cresselia might not be a half-bad Zydog check at all, given its fantastic natural bulk and instant recovery with Moonlight. I'm not about to write a whole other post about how efficient Cresselia is, though. Not right now at least.

 

[iceblazer]

Actually, Cresselia might not be a half-bad Zydog check at all, given its fantastic natural bulk and instant recovery with Moonlight. I'm not about to write a whole other post about how efficient Cresselia is, though. Not right now at least.

I’ve used Cress before, and I can confirm that it’s a pretty good Zydog check. It takes Thousand Arrows pretty well and can even use Zydog as setup fodder once its Kee Berry is activated, although a predicted Toxic hampers it. If you need more info on it, I’ve written a post about it here.

 

[Oathkeeper]

Alright, finished getting reqs not too long ago and I have to say this: Zydog may not be broken, but it's definitely unhealthy. First of all, it constricts teambuilding. You are basically required to bring at least two checks to it on each team and usually those checks are defensive to eat up a 1000 Arrows. Togekiss, Dhelmise, Milotic, you name it. They are effective, don't get me wrong. But for how long? Right? On the other side of the "check" coin, there's offensive answers like Noivern, scarf Zarude, Mienshao, and Xurkitree among others. Even then, it carries Extreme Speed for such issues. This adds on to the unhealthy factor. The whole point of speed control or outspeeding a threat like Zydog is to do that without issue. Second, its coverage is practically (if not) perfect. We're talking Superpower for Zarude, Stone Edge for Togekiss, and the list goes on. Sure, we can probably surmise what the Zydog has by default, but nonetheless the issue remains. I could keep going with this, but in short, Zydog is unhealthy and constricts teambuilding.

 

[phantom]

zydog is banned https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ss-round-3-voting.3679944/page-2#post-8785024

 

[A Golden Waddle Dee]

the suspect in a nutshell:

(replace horny with RUBL)

 

[shooting star]

STORED POWER IN RU ft. CRESSELIA​

Despite the many Dark-types residing in RU, bulky Psychics with Stored Power remain as threatening as ever. Both Necrozma and Reuniclus can run Iron Defense (if needed) and recovery moves to threaten the metagame with Stored Power and Heat Wave/Focus Blast, although the former is usually found on hyper offensive teams and tends to run Autotomize. In the grand scheme of things, Reuniclus is probably still better as a wincon, having access to Magic Guard, 16 PP Recover, and higher base SpA. It can also function as a pivot with Future Sight + Knock Off + Regenerator. However, I would like to bring up an underrated threat that just got banned in NU: Cresselia. Shoutout to Davon for creating the set shown below.

Cresselia (F) @ Kee Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Rest​

Why choose Cresselia, and why run this set?

• Cresselia has immense bulk, with its Defense further augmented once Kee Berry is activated. Here is a calc for comparison.
  • 252+ Atk Golisopod First Impression vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Cresselia: 204-240 (45.9 - 54%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252+ Atk Golisopod First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 272-324 (64.1 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• Its speed tier is amazing, outspeeding Jolly Rhyperior and other defensive mons like Seismitoad with minimal speed investment. Of course, you can run some speed creep if needed.
• Reliable secondary move in Moonblast to hit all Dark-types, while Reuniclus cannot hit Sableye, a niche Pokemon sometimes found on Stall. It also has more PP, which is useful if the opponent runs Pokemon good at PP-stalling like Sub/CM Raikou and Suicune (see replay with based carnage).
• While Substitute + Moonlight bypasses Toxic, you are forced to give up Moonblast, which means opposing Dark-types can come in more frequently with little cost. Give up Stored Power, and common Steel-types like Metagross will become a problem, easily avoiding a 2HKO from a +6 Moonblast.

Here are some replays showcasing Cresselia’s prowess.

• vs based carnage
• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1296287324-hqz5a7p07liifskx9qbdo7mwyowniqgpw
• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1296284830-x72nvkyw528xvh9hw4e6w635jrz2jampw
• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1296275661-pkfe7rbksotbj9tyolnw53plpvzdzbspw (^ same person)
• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1296193240-bkvqdr60o1tibtpd73xbrk7naq8884mpw

The tier is also not short of Pokemon capable of wearing down Cresselia’s checks, with Fighting-types like Heracross and Mienshao immediately coming to mind. Moreover, 2 of its offensive checks, Zarude and Chandelure, are already great in UU and will likely rise next month especially with the Aegislash resuspect test happening now. Additionally, should Reuniclus be suspect tested several months down the road (which I could honestly see it happening once other unhealthy elements like Togekiss are addressed, but that is a topic for another day), Cresselia’s viability will only rise even further.

 

[Jmash]

Here to post about another one of my favorites in this meta.

Toxicroak​

Quite the anti-meta mon, Toxicroak’s a cool way to capitalize on current meta trends that’s not just a match-up fish, but a consistent option even without its most ideal victims, like Milotic, present. It’s consistency can be pinned on its good 1v1s against many relevant mons, and it has enough raw power to not require a boost to be threatening. So how does Toxicroak use these good traits?

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

So this is the most standard set, capable of clicking its STABs or boosting when needed, with Sucker Punch to keep Zydog out of your face since it would fall to a +2 Sucker after rocks. But, notice the current Gastrodon trend, and recent banning of Zydog. Plus, Toxicroak hardly wants to click SD when Togekiss and Noivern are the main mons it wants to break. So why not push some boundaries...

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Focus Punch

Anyone who dislikes Toxicroak’s inability to make progress in some of its tougher match-ups like Gastrodon, Crobat, and Doublade should consider these options. Knock Off’s always great, hampers Crobat and Doublade a ton more while just being more consistent, but Focus Punch is where it gets fun. In conjunction with Knock Off, Focus Punch erodes Gastrodon and Seismitoad incredibly quickly, doing over half to both. Focus Punching on Gastrodon’s Recovers will either put Gastrodon into Drain Punch range or at least half health, where Croak can either force Gastrdon to stay at half or lower by continuously Focus Punching, or switch out if confident Gastrodon isn’t Recovering. While it’s no auto win button, it gives the Croak user the tools to break past if the right plays are made, which is much better than simply being unable to make progress at all. Focus Punch retains other feats that Swords Dance provided, such as letting Croak KO bulky Metagross switch-ins with no prior chip with Focus Punch into Knock Off, punishing a Resting Snorlax, and denying healthy Rhyperior as a switch-in. Unfortunately, no SD means Croak no longer beats Vileplume, which normally is a nice attribute of Croak, but otherwise I think Focus Punch can elevate this mon and give it some depth.

Croak’s amalgamation of quirks have a lot of fun little interactions that can really help on offense. Drain Punch alone is so nice, it makes clicking attacks freely so much better, which goes hand in hand with its resistances to rocks, U-turns, and First Impressions, which helps Croak avoid the issue of chip damage, forcing the opposition to directly beat it, rather than just dinking away at it in the way done against some other mons like Heracross and Toxtricity. Croak usually doesn’t leave teams open to VoltTurn due to the aforementioned U-turn resistance and ability to murder Boots Xurkitree, while also forcing Raikou to click an Electric move to damage it significantly, thus Raikou is less likely to Toxic your Ground-type in the back. Croak can also be great for forcing out or revenge killing a variety of Pokemon, from Togekiss and Xurkitree, to Chandelure (yes) and Roserade. The extra Sharpedo match-up is also pretty underrated I feel, since that mon can be a huge threat to non Togekiss teams.

The fact that I haven’t even breathed the words Dry Skin yet is something, proves Croak does more than just body Milotic and Suicune (which it absolutely does). While it has some tight Fighting-type competition, Toxicroak has such a distinct blend of tools that’s still unique and legitimately useful, real interesting mon rn. Being able to drop Sucker Punch due to longer having to worry about letting in Zydog is quite useful honestly, other moves make Croak much harder to handle. btw this mon is excellent on rain if you want to run that style, highly recommend it for covering rain’s more annoying match-ups like Golisopod and Zarude.

Wall of calcs

252 Atk LO Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Togekiss: (92.5 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk LO Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Noivern: (85.2 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk LO Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: (95.7 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk LO Toxicroak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: (100.7 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk LO Toxicroak Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 220-261 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk LO Toxicroak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: (52.1 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk LO Toxicroak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: (35.4 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk LO Toxicroak Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk LO Toxicroak Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: (59.3 - 69.9%) -- remember gastro recover will go before focus punch hits

252 Atk LO Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: (29.5 - 34.9%) -- recovers 20.5 - 24.4%

252 Atk LO Toxicroak Focus Punch vs. +3 12 HP / 240 Def Snorlax: (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Toxicroak: (34.2 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO if you stay healthy enough, you can still win even through one flinch

252 Atk Zarude Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO don’t use croak as your main switch-in lmao

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: (57 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO same thing, you wanna 1v1 these mons rather than switch in

Yo this shit boutta go crazy loool

The up-and-coming, neat mon

Very synergistic spiker with lots of room for tech, both with items and moves

 

[choicebadkyurem]

Just wanna say Fuck Zydoge glad its gone.

 

[Punchshroom]

Salazzle (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 120 HP / 136 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Protect / Disable
- Flamethrower

Howdy, I'm just here to drop a premier SubToxic Salazzle spread. Check these juicy calcs:

0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Salazzle: 64-76 (20.8 - 24.7%)
0 SpA Weezing-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 63-75 (20.5 - 24.4%)
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Salazzle: 63-75 (20.5 - 24.4%)
0- SpA Cobalion Volt Switch vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 63-75 (20.5 - 24.4%)

That'll be all folks. Have a nice day.

 

[xoPure]

Gonna talk a little bit about some more theory mons that could have a solid spot in the metagame rn since it went well Dhelmise and Lanturn earlier.


Tauros (M) @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat
- Earthquake

Tauros has an amazing speed tier for an offensive pivot/breaker right now, Life Orb allows for damn near no defensive counterplay unless you get a move wrong on an offensive pivot. Togekiss gets 2HKO by Body Slam into Rock Slide. It's a 30% role to OHKO Noivern but everyone knows it never stays at full. And finally mons like Steelix get 2HKO by CC. A speed tier faster than Zarude also allows it to just click buttons.


Basculin @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flip Turn
- Liquidation
- Superpower
- Ice Fang

Scarf Basculin is an excellent Scarfer as well as a revenge killer. Adapdability Flip Turn as well is a great chipping option for other threats, Ive found this mon to be a great way to bait in bulky defensive options and forcing a hard punish with breakers. Scarf Liquidation 2HKO the standard Togekiss spread as well as Superpower 2HKOing Zarude with the attack drop.

Thats really about it ill keep testing a few more before I talk about them.

 

[A floor Mat]

Just gonna share some brief thoughts on the relatively small tier shifts

Cool mon for sure, it will improve rain's strength and viability by a lot. Banded Liquidation time!
Magnezone leaving does not impact the tier much, its only standout niche was iron defense + Bp to trap steels but it was a cool mon to see nonetheless. Hf in OU spaceship.
I think it comes as no surprise that these three have risen from bl. Mienshao is a incredible scarfer and lo breaker, Sharpedo is a amazing late game sweeper and Toxtricity clicks button. Great mons for sure!
These two water types are phenomenal right now. Golisopod having knock + hazards and priority gives it amazing roll compression and makes it a very valuable addition to teams. Gastrodon is a great check to very common Pokemon such as Raikou and Rhyperior and can cripple Flying-type switch ins with toxic. Definitely deserved the rise.
The tiering realm has decided to give Roserade a proper tier that isn't disrespectful PUBL. Roserade is a amazing spiker, its grass typing is great for beating water and ground type hazard setters such as Seismitoad and Rhyperior and its Poison typing gives it a handy Fighting-type resistance as well as the ability to scare Togekiss with Sludge bomb. Very cool mon!
Lets be honest...... with the recent poll of worst RU mon by usage these two had the drop to NU coming XD. Entei has a very tough time being a choice bander whos weak to rocks and is generally outclassed by Darm aside from having priority Espeed. ICE horse is my boy #ICE4LIFE. Glastier's niche is as a specialized set up sweeper and wallbreaker however, it is held back by its many weaknesses, slow speed tier and lack of longevity making it high maintenance and hard to fit on teams. Hopefully ICE horse can gallop through NU!

Tnx 4 reading! I wanna know if u guys like these epic mons here's a special T E A M I made with Ywt for your patience!

 

[Yourwelcomethanku]

first team was made with avgg
So thoughts on barreskewda. | Skewda teams click on the pokemon
Skewed (Barraskewda) @ Choice Band /HDB
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- Close Combat:
- Flip Turn
- Psychic Fangs this 2hkos noivern

I dont think skewda makes rain any if more viable simply because rain as always had access to a powerful flip turn abuser in kabutops who even has a menacing secondary stab. What skewda functionally does for rain in my opinion is add a very fast and very powerful pokemon easily capable of mauling the rain team. Barreskweda should be great teammates with zarude, darmanitan, and raikou. Raikou is able to land toxic vs one of its counters in gastrodon and seismitoad with just a little more chip or pressure easily applied and put on by zarude who also keeps momentum gastrodon can be put in 2hko range from skewda CC taking 40% minimum. you could even sack skewda just to put gastrodon in KO range by raikou opening up one of the most dangerous pokemon in RU as the team with gastrodon could have been the teams best answer to raikou. thats a worst case scenario assuming you keep skewda that's amazing allowing it with volt flip and u-turn to keep momentum throughout a game. Also sounds higly menacing alongsides spikes. Roserade in particular has good synergy with it. Overall i think Barreskewda will be a Great pokemon in the SS RU Metagame. I would also like to hear yall thoughts on Skewda.

Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 172-203 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Noivern: 160-189 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Expulso]

Hi all it's been a while since there have been posts here so i wanted to talk about some mons I like in the current meta! I was going to fit a few into this post, but this took a decent amount of time so I'll just do some more "spotlights" in the future.



Oldgen RU staple Flygon is very good in SS right now; after receiving very little SS usage in the first few weeks of RUPL, it has skyrocketed to be a top 5-10 usage mon in recent weeks. It will likely earn a well-deserved raise to the A- or even A rank in the coming days. So, what does it do in RU and why is it good now?

Flygon usually serves as an offensive check to the very common Electric- and Steel-types while also being a potent late-game wincon (either through scarf or DD), but can also choose to break with CB or provide defensive utility with Defog + Roost. Thus, its sets are
- Scarf
- DD
- Band
- Defensive
(not to mention niche yet usable options like DD + Roost and LO Mixed)

SETS:

DD (Adamant is MANDATORY)

Flygon @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Outrage

DD Flygon is, imo, easily its best set right now. It is a deadly late-game cleaner due to the ability to outspeed common Scarfers like Xurkitree, Heracross, and anything but Shao/Zarude; it also has the natural bulk to avoid OHKOs. This lets it create a massive defensive dilemma. If Flygon DDs on a forced switch-out to a sack (against a target like Registeel), Flygon can then live the Scarfer's revenge-killing attempt. If the opponent stays in with their defensive mon to avoid that, their defensive mon might be unable to avoid letting Flygon get 2 DDs off thanks to Lum Berry + good bulk; after 2 DDs, the Scarfer can do nothing to stop it. Additionally, it makes awesome use of its Dragon STAB because the most common resists are Steels and Togekiss (which is the most common Fairy by a mile). Steels lose to EQ and Togekiss struggles to do much back; a 0 SpAtk Air Slash never 2HKOes even after SR. Thus, Outrage can be pretty easy to lock into late-game once the Steels have been chipped; if Togekiss comes in to take advantage of you being locked into it, it only does a small amount back and you break out of the Outrage lock upon hitting it again, letting you KO with Stone Edge or even DD again!

Bulky DD with DD / Roost / Edge / EQ is a cool idea I haven't tried yet that theoretically takes advantage of the switches Flygon forces to stay out of range of revenge-killers.

Scarf

Flygon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 236 Atk / 20 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Outrage / Toxic
- Stone Edge / Toxic

Scarf Flygon is a decently splashable scarfer, checking Ground-types and partnering well with Electrics; it can U-turn them in against Togekiss, and both help the other weaken Gastrodon. It can also bop Togekiss on the switch for a 2HKO with Stone Edge or cripple non-Heal bell variants with Toxic, making it useful for weakening it for teammates. Outrage can often win late-game as well.

Band

Flygon @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
- Outrage

Band basically just hits really hard, punishing teams that rely on Zarude for ground resist. It can also much more seriously dent Togekiss if it catches it on the switch. However, having the dual STAB walled by Togekiss can make it very prediction-reliant versus those teams, forced to click U-turn a lot or hope to get the Stone Edge turn right versus Togekiss.

Defensive

Flygon @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Roost
- Defog / U-turn

Finally, defensive Flygon is also usable. It can keep Rocks off well against the Stealth Rockers due to Defog + Roost its Ground typing, though it performs less well against the Spikers. It is also a reliable Rhyperior check, which is honestly pretty hard to come by in this meta. If Defog isn't needed, it can serve as a general bulky pivot. This set really needs a partner that puts Togekiss on the back foot because HBell Kiss shuts it down pretty hard; fortunately, Raikou, Xurkitree, and Steel-type rockers like Metagross, Registeel, and Stakataka all pair well with it. The EV spread is flexible (as Aquarius Ghost ❤ and I just discussed on Discord); phys def EVs help its 1v1 matchup versus Steel-types and make it a more reliable remover, but spdef EVs can make it better against the tier's Electric-types. It can be optimized for whichever one you find more important to check.

PROS: I talked about most in the Sets section, but there is one huge point I wanted to add.

It is very hard to reliably identify Flygon's set at preview, making DD or Scarf potentially deadly in the endgame and letting you bluff Scarf early on, either with Flygon or another teammate. The Flygon + Xurkitree duo is particularly effective at confusing opponents about who has the Scarf. However, that ambiguity goes away once hazards go up, so good removal helps with this.

PROBLEMS:
- One issue I have found with Flygon is being a Dragon that doesn't resist Water. Often you'll use Flygon because you want a Ground-type less passive than Gastrodon, but running Flygon + Noivern can sometimes be awkward. Thus, teams with Flygon as their only Dragon tend to struggle against Volcanion; the Water Absorb Water+Grounds and Noivern are its most splashable counterplay. If not using Gastro / Seis / Noivern alongside it, Flygon appreciates partners like AV Reuniclus and Snorlax that can help alleviate this weakness.

- Another issue is that setup Flygon really wants to stay at 100% to take advantage of its great bulk. This means that once the opponent has a good idea about your set, they can take advantage of Flygon not being a good Electric check by locking into Volt with Scarf Xurkitree / spamming TBolt with Raikou, since they know you wouldn't want to risk such a potent late-game win-con or breaker. Pairing Flygon with another Ground (Gastro works well) or another great Electric check (for instance, AV Reun) can mitigate this issue.


Thanks! Hope you enjoyed reading like 1000 words about Flygon. Expect another one of these posts next time I want to procrastinate my finals

 

[xoPure]

so apparently im the shit mon enthusiast so here we go again


Gonna be talking a lil bit about Jellicent because it has a pretty strong niche right now. But instead of my usual talks about a mon, im gonna provide some sample sets with explanations that ive been testing for about the last week because i really enjoy this mon. I really like Expulsos format, so ill do something a little similar.

"STANDARD" JELLICENT
Jellicent @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Recover
- Scald / Hex

Took a while to make this spead but i believe this is the most splashable version of Jellicent you can have. 140 speed is to outpace anything slower than the standard Incineroar spread, while 116 defense and bold nature still keeps it as a solid answer to everything a phys def bulky water needs to check. Colbur Berry is an excellent option for this set, but well get to a better Colbur set later. I chose Lefties as an item because this mon gets a lot of free turns on defensive mons as there is no pure defensive mon right now faster than this (excluding the Rocks Metagross set, but you still beat it), making the Taunt super free and adding up Lefties heals. Boots is also a great option as Jellicent isnt a huge fan of Stealth Rocks, but its personal preference because Jellicent will more than likely naturally heal the rocks off (or more) as stated earlier.

COLBUR PIVOT
Jellicent @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Taunt
- Strength Sap
- Scald / Hex

A more defensive oriented set that allows it to answer more neutral physical hits. Colbur on this allows for Knock Off users to be almost useless against it (0 Atk Incineroar Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 150-176 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). Now the reason I have Will-O Strength Sap on here is because it actually beats Zarude 1v1 (Burn on the switch then SS endlessly OR SS forever if you catch the switch with SS). Taunt is still a must pick move for Jellicent as even with 44 speed you still outspeed all base 65s (you'll be slower than Seismitoad, Incineroar, Milotic, and Metagross.) Hex is also a good option on T-Spike teams or general status spam defense builds, but Scald is heavily preferred.

PROS AND CONS
Pro- Water Absorber
Pro- Taunt user helps with Defense/Stall matchup
Pro- 3rd Fastest defensive mon in the tier thanks to speed investment
Pro- Answer to a lot of RUs threats
Pro- Beats just about every defensive mon in the tier

Con- Weak to Volt-Turn Offenses
Con- Grass/Dark/Electric weakness does suck, but just build with answers
Con- Status on this sucks nuts

And finally I wanna throw the team ive been using with it, got up to top 20 on the ladder. Just click the mons below. (excuse the nicknames)
- - - - -

 

[CryoGyro]

so apparently im the shit mon enthusiast so here we go again


Gonna be talking a lil bit about Jellicent because it has a pretty strong niche right now. But instead of my usual talks about a mon, im gonna provide some sample sets with explanations that ive been testing for about the last week because i really enjoy this mon. I really like Expulsos format, so ill do something a little similar.

"STANDARD" JELLICENT
Jellicent @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Recover
- Scald / Hex

Took a while to make this spead but i believe this is the most splashable version of Jellicent you can have. 140 speed is to outpace anything slower than the standard Incineroar spread, while 116 defense and bold nature still keeps it as a solid answer to everything a phys def bulky water needs to check. Colbur Berry is an excellent option for this set, but well get to a better Colbur set later. I chose Lefties as an item because this mon gets a lot of free turns on defensive mons as there is no pure defensive mon right now faster than this (excluding the Rocks Metagross set, but you still beat it), making the Taunt super free and adding up Lefties heals. Boots is also a great option as Jellicent isnt a huge fan of Stealth Rocks, but its personal preference because Jellicent will more than likely naturally heal the rocks off (or more) as stated earlier.

COLBUR PIVOT
Jellicent @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Taunt
- Strength Sap
- Scald / Hex

A more defensive oriented set that allows it to answer more neutral physical hits. Colbur on this allows for Knock Off users to be almost useless against it (0 Atk Incineroar Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 150-176 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). Now the reason I have Will-O Strength Sap on here is because it actually beats Zarude 1v1 (Burn on the switch then SS endlessly OR SS forever if you catch the switch with SS). Taunt is still a must pick move for Jellicent as even with 44 speed you still outspeed all base 65s (you'll be slower than Seismitoad, Incineroar, Milotic, and Metagross.) Hex is also a good option on T-Spike teams or general status spam defense builds, but Scald is heavily preferred.

PROS AND CONS
Pro- Water Absorber
Pro- Taunt user helps with Defense/Stall matchup
Pro- 3rd Fastest defensive mon in the tier thanks to speed investment
Pro- Answer to a lot of RUs threats
Pro- Beats just about every defensive mon in the tier

Con- Weak to Volt-Turn Offenses
Con- Grass/Dark/Electric weakness does suck, but just build with answers
Con- Status on this sucks nuts

And finally I wanna throw the team ive been using with it, got up to top 20 on the ladder. Just click the mons below. (excuse the nicknames)
- - - - -

I think you got a little ahead of yourself here; you dive into the finer details of the sets before explaining why to use Jellicent in the first place, and I'd like to hear a bit more detail than your pros and cons list.

Water Absorber

Gastrodon and Seismitoad aren't exactly obscure, this isn't much of an intrinsic selling point.

Taunt user helps with Defense/Stall matchup

Sure, but such styles aren't considered particularly strong right now. It's getting a bit of a boost on the team you provided cause none of its members present an immediate offensive threat.

3rd Fastest defensive mon in the tier thanks to speed investment

Which helps against what?

Answer to a lot of RUs threats

Including? I expect the exact combination is unique and an important part of its niche.

 

[xoPure]

I think you got a little ahead of yourself here; you dive into the finer details of the sets before explaining why to use Jellicent in the first place, and I'd like to hear a bit more detail than your pros and cons list.

Gastrodon and Seismitoad aren't exactly obscure, this isn't much of an intrinsic selling point.

Sure, but such styles aren't considered particularly strong right now. It's getting a bit of a boost on the team you provided cause none of its members present an immediate offensive threat.

Which helps against what?

Including? I expect the exact combination is unique and an important part of its niche.

fuck it i got time, lets get into depth right now.

I'd like to start first with that Jellicent is nowhere near a "great mon" in RU right now. I just saw some potential in a couple of sets which is why i prolly went a lil too far into the actual set instead of why the set can be good.

now onto the colbur set, yall know what it does already, so ill go straight into what it checks and beats with some calcs as well.

COBALION

+4 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 144-169 (35.6 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 252 Atk burned Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 95-112 (23.5 - 27.7%) -- 84.6% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 160-189 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

INCINEROAR

0 Atk Incineroar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Colbur Berry Jellicent: 111-132 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (with Colbur)
0 Atk Incineroar Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 150-176 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (after Colbur)
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Incineroar: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

ZARUDE

252 Atk Zarude Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 350-414 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
-1 252 Atk Zarude Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (catch switch with Strength Sap)

MIENSHAO

252 Atk Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Colbur Berry Jellicent: 97-115 (24 - 28.4%) -- 97% chance to 4HKO (with Colbur)
252 Atk Mienshao Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO (after Colbur)
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 114-135 (42 - 49.8%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

GOLISOPOD

252+ Atk Golisopod First Impression vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 74-87 (18.3 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Golisopod Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Colbur Berry Jellicent: 107-126 (26.4 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (with Colbur)
252+ Atk Golisopod Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 144-170 (35.6 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (after Colbur)
0 SpA Jellicent Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Golisopod: 133-157 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

HERACROSS

252 Atk Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Colbur Berry Jellicent: 97-115 (24 - 28.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock (with Colbur)
252 Atk Heracross Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (after Colbur)
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 90-106 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

OBSTAGOON

252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Colbur Berry Jellicent: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO (with Colbur)
-1 252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 156-186 (38.6 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (after Colbur and Strength Sap
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Obstagoon: 90-106 (27.5 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

METAGROSS

252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 78-92 (19.3 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 116-137 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 84-99 (27.9 - 32.8%) -- 11.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

DURANT

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 120-140 (29.7 - 34.6%) -- 11.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Jellicent: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

keep in mind Strength Sap makes these matchups way better for Jellicent as it will full heal off all of these mons

Now ill talk about my claim on why being fast as a defensive mon is important for this mon. Being faster than almost every defensive mon in the tier means free Taunts, an oppos best way to deal with Jellicent could be to status it, but that wont happen unless you catch it on a switch. Taunts enable free turns for an aggressive switch in. If your oppo has an Offense build with a plan to hazard stack to break through the non Boots users, Jellicent halts that progress by taunting a Steelix, Stakataka, Golisopod, and mons that want to get those hazards up with a faster Taunt. Being fast also allows it to get burns off on slower offensive pokes like Doublade, Golisopod, and Stakataka, or statusing other defensive mons. I feel like I dont need to say every mon this thing is faster than, but instead ill say what its slower than so you can see that way. The colbur set is Slower than Incineroar, Metagross, Milotic, and Seismitoad (if its nature isnt -Speed). thats it

hope this clears up the questions you had.

 

[Lily]

ok i know u guys are talking about like screens and togekiss and shit but i wanna bring up something i think is super stupid (but not outright broken) which is xurkitree (and also other elecs, raikou and toxtricity are both stupid but i don't find them as stupid as xurk).


so everyone knows what this goober does, he clicks volt switch because nothing can really block it unless you're running scarf and and they get the play right. generating free momentum is nothing particularly new, things like mienshao and zarude are already ridiculously good at it but i find that xurkitree is pretty stupid because of how it just straight up ohkos almost every single electric immunity in the tier.

you prob dont need calcs but i'll show them anyway

watch some goons blow up

252 SpA Xurkitree Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gastrodon: 572-676 (134.2 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Xurkitree Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 420-495 (96.7 - 114%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Xurkitree Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 612-724 (147.8 - 174.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Xurkitree Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Golurk: 292-344 (91.5 - 107.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

the only ground that doesn't just fucking explode is steelix and flygon if you're lucky (37.5% chance to ko after rocks) and ofc there's togedemaru which hard counters but nobody's ready for that. with steelix being a pretty mid mon this creates really awkward 50/50s for a huge portion of teams and i find it's very unhealthy to actually attempt to deal with from a teambuilding perspective, with my general rule being "well I guess I just won't face one because they'll probably use raikou instead". i think the only reason this hasn't shown up as a bigger problem is just because raikou is way more popular and probably better because speed tier good and it's bulkier so it handles broken ass togekiss a lot better.

grasses aren't safe either, zarude is obviously not appreciating dgleam at all. i've seen roserade touted as a "counter" and uh... unless i've missed the memo and we're running calm rose then no it really isn't bc tbolt just flat out 3hkos, I guess synth boots rose handles it fairly well but again it takes a huge chunk from volt and yea not really great long term at all. free momentum sucks. idk why people are so stuck on scarf too, boots is insane and has been popping up a lot lately (or at least it seemed that way during my seasonal run).

i realise now that this sounds very incoherent and i certainly don't think xurkitree is the biggest issue in ru at all but i think this mon is worth keeping an eye on. like yeah it can't really bust past av reuni that well or whatever but the volt turn it enables is so obnoxious and idt the tier is too well equipped to handle it. watch out for raikou and toxt too i guess. ty for reading

ban screens and togekiss