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np: RU Stage 7 - Don't Look Back

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^Yes Scyther is amazing in Volt-turn teams!

Volt-turn teams were especially good before Aerodactyl came into the tier, because Natu stopped the most common SR layers completely, which were Claydol and Uxie.

Another wonderful member for a Volt-Turn team, and for Scyther, is Specs Rotom-C. Wonderful wallbreaker and stallbreaker which has amazing synergy with Scyther.

And to complete the core, Scarf Moltres is a wonderful third partner to the Volt-turn combo, providing the team with a scarfer and Moltres covers some weakness that the other 2 pokes share, such as Fire.

Of 'course with 2 4x SR weak pokes you are going to need rapid spin support and Natu support imo, along with some hazards, and you have a very annoying and effective team!
 
Omicron... -___-

As far as the new metagame is concerned though, it's been pretty interesting so far. I've seen a lot of Sandslash over Claydol's spot, but from my experience, Sandslash is just as mediocre as Claydol, as it still can't spin that reliably either and just ends up setting up Stealth Rock and dying. It's only really good if you REALLY need that resistance to Rock, and can't fit either of its roles in another team slot. In fact, at the moment, my favorite Rapid Spinner is definitely Cryogonal. It's beats almost every Ghost-type one-on-one, stops OTR Cofagrigus in its tracks, and makes a wonderful check to stuff like Choice Scarf Manectric which are rising in popularity. Hitmonchan is still pretty good too, but the fact that it lets OTR Cofagrigus set up is not a good thing at this point in the metagame, where OTR Cofagrigus is literally everywhere. I've never tried Kabutops though; for the people who've used it, is it an effective Rapid Spinner? Good Rapid Spinners seem to be important in this metagame though, since I've seen a lot of Spikestacking + OTR Cofagrigus teams that make controlling hazards a necessity. Steelix is also my favorite Stealth Rock user, so it's great to see it being used more, and I've also been seeing some more lovely Steelix + Slowking cores :).

And yeah, VoltTurn is definitely pretty cool with all the Spikestacking + OTR Cofagrigus teams running around. Natu is really cool to block most hazard setters, bar stuff like Aerodactyl and Rhydon, and it gives those spikestacking teams some issues since most of the Spikes users can't really deal with Natu well, at least from my experience anyway, as Natu can just set up Light Screen or Reflect to cushion those attacks. Like alexwolf said though, you should still carry Rapid Spin support for insurance, and imo these are the types of teams where Sandslash should be used on, primarily because RU VoltTurn teams can't really deal with Rock-type attacks that well because Scyther and Moltres, which are probably two of its strongest attackers, are 4x weak to Rock and Stealth Rock.
 
Laddered up to #4, here are my impressions:

-A lot of players don't really have an answer to Smeargle. Primeape/Magmortar are actually pretty rare (Sawsbuck/Afrobull, on the other hand..)

-Echoing Silentverse, Cryogonal is hands down the best spinner currently

-Bulky SD Drapion is amazing right now

-OTR Cofag strongth
 
What I love using lately is this Drapion set.

Drapion (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Crunch
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Taunt

It's really good as a stall breaker and is a decent check OTR Cofagrigus thanks to its typing and taunt. It can set up on numerous walls and is quite strong, being able to 2hko common variants of steelix at +2 is great. Drapion as a whole is a great mon this round because of its versatility and it being able to check a good deal of common threats.
 
Am I the only one who thinks Specs King + LO Growth is almost out of control? I mean the two of them with Regenerator just....I don't know you can't keep them down. Psyshock and Sleep Powder dismantle any special walls you have, and they can take a huge amount of punishment before biting the dust, especially if you play well.
 
Heysup said:
Am I the only one who thinks Specs King + LO Growth is almost out of control? I mean the two of them with Regenerator just....I don't know you can't keep them down. Psyshock and Sleep Powder dismantle any special walls you have, and they can take a huge amount of punishment before biting the dust, especially if you play well.
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Banning both Slowking and Tangrowth is a solid idea - it will promote the use of other Pokemon in their stead, leading to better stalling playstyles. I wasn't around on Smogon to hear about AkalaSableye - but from what I heard that was a very terrifying experience for RU, before both mons got kicked to BL2. SlowGrowth is looking like another combination that threatens the balance of RU, especially with less counters and checks to each respective Poke. If they are both in BL2, perhaps SlowGrowth will see some things change regarding the UU metagame as well.

Furthermore, I find Slowking to be better than its crownless brother, Slowbro, for a slew of differing reasons (including better stat distribution, Nasty Plot, and other reasons)
 
/B/utterfree said:
Banning both Slowking and Tangrowth is a solid idea - it will promote the use of other Pokemon in their stead, leading to better stalling playstyles.
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Bans neither occur for the benefit of increasing usage of other Pokemon, nor do they occur to increase usage of a playstyle; bans occur because the Pokemon in question is broken.
I wasn't around on Smogon to hear about AkalaSableye - but from what I heard that was a very terrifying experience for RU, before both mons got kicked to BL2.
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Sableye and Alakazam were banned for being individually broken; one for its immense power, the other for being virtually unkillable.

SlowGrowth is looking like another combination that threatens the balance of RU, especially with less counters and checks to each respective Poke. If they are both in BL2, perhaps SlowGrowth will see some things change regarding the UU metagame as well.
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Firstly, neither of the individual Pokemon are broken, which would be required for either of them to be banned. Secondly, it is unlikely that the combination of the two is broken, and impractical to implement a ban based on such. Thirdly, the UU metagame has no relevance on the brokenness of a Pokemon.

Furthermore, I find Slowking to be better than its crownless brother, Slowbro, for a slew of differing reasons (including better stat distribution, Nasty Plot, and other reasons)
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Slowbro and Slowking offer different niches, Slowbro's being more relevant to the UU metagame. The only difference in stats between the two is the 110/80 defense stats being switched, which means that Slowbro is better equipped to deal with the heavy hitters of the UU metagame. Were Slowbro RU it is quite possible it would be outclassed by Slowking.
 
I am surprised that Omastar is made Suspect. I look forward to observing the various arguments, and perhaps trying Omastar out more myself.

I used it a few times as a Shell Smash sweeper back when I was trying to make that Suspect Test team on behalf of seeing a dedicated Whimsicott team take down the entire RU metagame, but I quickly realized that Quagsire was a better Pokemon for my team - I needed someone who could handle HO teams with ease, not someone to set up and sweep.

I also tried using it for hazards a couple times, only to find defensive sets to be simply rock solid. Omastar's a great Pokemon, though, and I bet it can do alot with a dedicated team.
 
Now I haven't tried RU until now, so I'm kind of new to this metagame, so yeah. :P

Anyway, one mon I'm having a fun time using is Specs Moltres. I've won most of my matches because there's not much that can take a Fire Blast from it. I even find myself sometimes leading with it just because my opponents team doesn't really have anything to take it. The only thing I think that's keeping it from being broken is SR, because it's just a bitch to keep them off the field in this tier.(though y'all probably already know that)

I'm also thinking Absol will probably rise to RU since it's pretty much the best replacement for Honchcrow.

Finally how is Claydol #1? I've played a good 50 matches, and I haven't even seen 1. :\
 
The Diverman said:
Now I haven't tried RU until now, so I'm kind of new to this metagame, so yeah. :P

Anyway, one mon I'm having a fun time using is Specs Moltres. I've won most of my matches because there's not much that can take a Fire Blast from it. I even find myself sometimes leading with it just because my opponents team doesn't really have anything to take it. The only thing I think that's keeping it from being broken is SR, because it's just a bitch to keep them off the field in this tier.(though y'all probably already know that)

I'm also thinking Absol will probably rise to RU since it's pretty much the best replacement for Honchcrow.

Finally how is Claydol #1? I've played a good 50 matches, and I haven't even seen 1. :\
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Yeah Specs Moltres is a monster! If it wasn't for the 4x weakness to SR, it would almost surely be broken.

Btw if SR is a problem for you, use Moltres in a team with Natu and a spinner and he won't disappoint you!
 
Is anyone else seeing a lot of Acrobat Drifblim@Flying Gem? I'm having trouble finding a good counter to that thing. Obviously 'mons like Rhydon and Aggron can take Acrobatics all day long, but then they lose against Destiny Bond or Will-o-Wisp.
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
Firstly, neither of the individual Pokemon are broken, which would be required for either of them to be banned. Secondly, it is unlikely that the combination of the two is broken, and impractical to implement a ban based on such. Thirdly, the UU metagame has no relevance on the brokenness of a Pokemon.
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This is real pedantic of me but I have nothing else to really say at the moment....

Your second two points are solid and true but actually the first point is not (if we follow the same precedents we always have anyway). If two Pokemon sufficiently are sufficiently broken as a combination, one of them could easily get banned and it's happened a lot in the history of banning. The most obvious example that jumps to my head is UU gen 4 where we banned Spikes and not Moltres for both of them being broken. There's also banning Hippowdon when Stoutland + Hippowdon was broken in UU.
 
I don't think offensive tangrowth and slowking are broken when you look at the circumstances of RU. They are both really slow and thus are easy to revenge-kill due to their common weaknesses and imbalanced defenses. And more often than not, they can't switch in nearly as well due to having to obligatory investment in their offenses in this case. Lots of things can break through slowgrowth already but that's even easier when they don't have max bulk. Just use stuff like CB entei or any bug type.

Combos will always exist in any tier, some better than others. It's just another thing you have to consider when team-building tbh.

And from my point of view anyway, hippowdon wasn't banned because stoutland was around, but mostly because he was by far the best physical tank in the tier with no common physical weakness, solid offensive capablities, instant recovery, and access to SR and a phazing move, all of which he could fit into one set.
 
I'm inclined to agree with Spuds about about Tangrwoth-Slowking not being broken. I will admit that Slowking can hit hit (relatively) hard from the special side and still retain an impressive amount bulk. But I often see the combo as more of a crutch. It requires the players to switch them in to take hits, and while they both excel at that, it almost locks you into a predictable style of play.

Sure, sure, someone can make some "awesome" predictions and work around this but I really don't feel like that is a valid argument.
 
Jebas, this thread doesn't get much attention.

Anywho, what's the correct way about bitching and whining about Cofagrigus so that it gets Suspect Nominated.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't like it, I use it on most of my teams. The OTR set is just ridiculous.

It seems to me that it has started passing the point of "excellent and bulky special attacker" to being negative to the tier. I remember Sableye and how much nobody liked Sableye and I honestly feel like OTR is worse for the current meta than Sableye was when it was still down here.
 
I don't get why such a big deal is being made out of cofag. I mean it's a good sweeper, but it needs 2 turns of set up, which are pretty hard to get no matter what kind of team you're facing, it has offensive as well as defensive switch ins/checks/counters (Mandibuzz, Spiritomb, Drapion, offensive Tangrowth etc), it will be put under under pressure by the opposing spinner, and its sweep is usually limited by TR duration after which it can be revenge killed with a bit of weakening (not hard when it spends 2 turns setting up) by a lot of things (Moltres, Sceptile, Crawdaunt, Galvantula, etc). Of course it's troublesome to deal with, but it's not quite suspect material the way I see it.
 
I don't really feel that OTR Cofagrigus is broken in this metagame. There's really quite a few checks to it (Mandibuzz, Drapion, Cryogonal, Spiritomb, Munchlax, a ton of random NU mons), and it's not that hard to beat it by just "wearing it down". OTR Cofagrigus takes two turns to really be threatening, which gives you plenty of time to keep hitting it until it dies. For example, when I used my Dancing Free team a bunch against Shakeitup's Final Attack Orders on the ladder, I could deal with it somewhat by using Slowking or Hitmonchan to wear it down a bit on switch ins, and then using Sceptile or Entei to threaten a KO. Of course I'd lose if my offensive mons died, but then it's just mostly my fault for carelessly letting those mons be KO'd when I still needed them to deal with Cofagrigus. NP Cofagrigus isn't even that deadly after a Nasty Plot since there's actually quite a few offensive Pokes that can survive a +2 Shadow Ball at full health. Moltres, Entei, Rotom-C, and Feraligatr can all survive to dish out a powerful attack on Cofagrigus, and even though Cofagrigus is usually accompanied with hazards, it's not that hard to remove them if you're using Foresight Hitmonchan (even though chan kind sucks in this metagame) or Cryogonal (who is actually amazing and should be used a lot more!). A couple of rounds ago I would've wanted OTR Cofagrigus for suspect, but now it's just incredibly manageable imo. It's really just about keeping pressure on the thing to deter it from setting up both Nasty Plot and Trick Room, or using one of its many checks, almost all of whom are very viable and definitely should be used more.

Edit: partially ninja'd by Ginku, but I also agree with what he said.
 
Lol silentverse you said exactly what I was about to say.

Its mostly the bulk that cofagrigus has even when investing in offense. It really only needs 1 "free" turn to NP because it can probably tank the next hit to set up TR. Top tier offensive threat, but really not broken at this point imo
 
My tutee and I discovered a really good check to OTR Cofagrigus in SubCM Entei. It easily sets up alongside Cofagrigus and can stall out Trick Room turns with Substitute. After the Calm Mind boosts, Shadow Ball won't be doing that much bar an unlucky SpD drop. Lava Plume has a great chance to burn, so that can also help wear it down. SubCM Entei also deals really well with pretty much any variant of Cofagrigus, being immune to Will-O-Wisp and having great bulk. Cofagrigus is annoying, tho I wouldn't call it suspect material.
 
Finally starting to get better at RU! Woo!! My two favorite things right now are SD Lum Absol and Specs Moltres.

Absol sets up on loads of stuff and between Sucker Punch man handling so many offensive teams and Night Slash/Superpower wrecking bulky dudes. This beast has never let me down.

Specs Moltres is such a huge monster!! I've paired it with Cryogonal and sometimes Natu as well so with no SR to hindle it, it causes so much pain. Specs Fire Blast is sooo strong and it has HP Grass for Slowking and Air Slash for its better accuracy(though come on 95 acc. just make it 100 Trollfreak). With no SR though U-Turn is also really sweet.
 
Yeah, I've got to agree, Specs Moltres is just amazing. For the last while I've been using it whenever I've used Moltres, and I like it a lot more than Life Orb Moltres honestly. While it can't switch attacks, it is just so absurdly powerful that it doesn't really need to do so, since almost everything is butchered between Fire Blast and Air Slash, and U-turn is awesome for keeping momentum vs stuff like Slowking. I've actually used it on my more offensive teams to ward off OTR Cofagrigus too, since iirc Specs Fire Blast OHKOes it with Stealth Rock while Moltres can survive a +2 Shadow Ball at full health, which makes it the better Moltres set for this metagame imo.

Absol, on the other hand, is something I haven't tried yet; it definitely seems interesting though! SD looks pretty awesome considering how popular Steelix + Slowking is getting, since Absol's Dark-type STAB and Superpower will easily wreck both mons; it even gets Megahorn to beat up Tangrowth too lol. My only issue with it is that it seems like it would die way too quickly due to its frailty and Life Orb recoil (though you run Lum, which might not be a bad idea actually).

Anyway, I must say that like Dittocrow and Double01, I've found bulky Swords Dance Drapion to be pretty fantastic in this metagame too. That fast Taunt is just really useful to completely stop stuff like Uxie from setting up Stealth Rock or paralyzing, not to mention that it's an absolute gem against spikestacking teams since it's fast enough to beat Smeargle, and it's typing and Taunt lets it set up multiple Swords Dances on the ever present Cofagrigus. It does have some issues getting past bulkier stuff like Sandslash, Steelix, and Rhydon though; I've been using offensive Tangrowth and Sceptile to take on those threats, and so far it's been working well Drapion just lures them in so easily, and those Pokemon just trash them. I've been able to 6-0 so many people with just Drapion due to how unprepared they are for it (though granted the ladder is pretty bad at the moment), so it's definitely something that's pretty anti-metagame.
 
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