np: SM UU Stage 10 - Diamonds and Pearls

[explodingdaisies]

I wanted to post my initial thoughts on this from laddering a bit yesterday. To be honest, msab doesn't really shine on stall. It's best archetype is balance. Stall would be better off running megas like aero, altaria, steelix and aggron that provide more utility than msab. That being said, I do feel like quick banning is the right move at this time with UUPL and ULT happening. Then retesting it at a later date. I wanna be able to test out msab more on different builds and then giving my thoughts later, after some in depth testing.

 

[N_Mareanie]

I do agree w the fact that Mega Sableye doesn't make stall a broken archetype, nor does it fit best on stall. It's a fine stall pick imo, though generally I'd prefer Mega Alt. I think balance is a perfect archetype for Mega Sableye to work on, and creates a stupid ton of 50/50's w the hazard game. You can't just say ''lemme get these rocks up'' freely if Mega Sableye is on the opposing team.
I think that wouldn't necessarily be much of a problem, since Xatu ofcourse creates the same 50/50's, but Mega Sableye has Knock off, Willo, and way better bulk. Only being weak to Fairy isn't a bad thing ig, since only Mega Alt rlly wants to come in on Mega Sab, since Prim doesn't like getting Knocked most of the time (unless ur the goat Z-move set).
Idk if it's quickban worthy, but generally I think the hazard game it creates is a tad bit unhealthy and don't think the tier would want something like this staying. Ofcourse adaptions like more Diancie usage is a thing that could happen, and perhaps in the future a retest could be possible, and I wouldn't be entirely against it, but for now I do think the best course of action is to ban it.

 

[RedxThree]

Piggybacking on some points already made, "Mega Sableye invalidates hazard setters" is a huge overstatement. It's Magic Bounce that does this on any mon in a vacuum and a total invalidation of hazards is only possible vs passive users than can't touch Sab anyway. Even in OU the only 'mon that gets free hazards vs it is Mold Breaker Exca and the tier has far more viable hazard setters than that, passive or otherwise, meaning as long as there's reasonable counterplay available in UU a 100% hard stop to what Sab does isn't necessary.

Yeah Sab donkey punches Froslass Spikes stack, thereby the current HO structure, but idk if that alone warrants an outright ban. Sash/Custap Diancie makes a decent fallback lead for HO, for one (inb4 Skill Swap Azelf lol). UU has both an abundance of viable Fairy-types and plenty of raw power to dispose of Sab. Again I'll bring up Diancie, which was already on the rise before Sab dropped and is prolly one of the best answers to Sab currently. MAlt is in a similar vein.

As Sab usage rises, a rise in offensive rocks setters like SD Steelium Cobalion, SD Terrak, Groundium Krook and a few niche ones like Mamo and Nidoking would be viable. All are capable of sets that OHKO/2HKO Sab outright or with some chip depending on its defensive investment, so the hazard 50/50s Sab creates are often in the rocker's favor, not its own.

Sab is a really good, really annoying presence for balance/BO builds but it's hard-pressed to solo hazard control for the entirety of matches on a consistent basis like some are claiming, at least unassisted by teammates. Stall teams appreciate the hazard control as well but foregoing other Megas opens up weaknesses to other threats thanks to Sab's lack of meaningful resistances (as already touched on). I'm for the QB argument regarding the ladder tour, but after I think this troll deserves a fair shake down here before the "brainless," "overcentralizing," etc labels start circulating.

 

[Hogg]

After some discussion and a couple of days of playing with Mega Sableye, the council has come to the following conclusion:

Mega Sableye deserves a full public suspect test, rather than just a council ban. In a very short time it has had a major impact on the metagame as a whole, but it also has fallen far short of being as unbreakable as many people feared. Its healthiness in UU should be fully explored in a public test.

However, running a suspect test during the laddering periods of UULT is less than ideal, since it would force people to ladder up multiple accounts simultaneously. We fear that participation in the suspect would be abnormally low if we attempted to hold the test immediately. Therefore, we are delaying the suspect until after the laddering portion of UULT concludes.

That leaves one final question: do we ban Mega Sableye now, and hold a test to free it, as we did with Bisharp? Or do we leave Mega Sableye free, and hold a test to ban it, as we did with Mega Venusaur? To that end, we will be holding a council vote to decide on Mega Sableye's current status. Again, regardless of the results of the vote, we will hold a public suspect test after the laddering period of UULT concludes. This vote is solely to determine whether we ban Mega Sableye for the remainder of UULT.

I've asked the council to submit their votes to me within the next 48 hours. In the meantime, if you have opinions on how the council should vote or on the meta overall, please post them!

 

[Freeroamer]

I assume that banning it for the duration of UULT also means it’ll be banned from UUPL until at least the public suspect concludes? (If that’s the result of the council vote of course)

Either way I think this is the best way to handle the situation, good decision!

 

[Hogg]

I assume that banning it for the duration of UULT also means it’ll be banned from UUPL until at least the public suspect concludes? (If that’s the result of the council vote of course)

Yes, that’s correct.

 

[mashonem]

I want MSab gone, but I can admit that it's not HOLY SHIT BAN NAO broken like I thought it would be. Giving it the Bish treatment seems most fair

 

[Sickist]

I feel like we should keep Sab unbanned during these tours simply to see how it fits into the metagame. That would give us all more of an idea of what a sableye metagame would be like.

 

[Ark]

I feel like we should keep Sab unbanned during these tours simply to see how it fits into the metagame. That would give us all more of an idea of what a sableye metagame would be like.

While I don't have a particular opinion on whether Sab should stay or not yet, I believe letting it stay for this particular reason would be a bad idea. Yes, it would tell us how it fits in the metagame. However, if it turns out to be extremely overcentralizing or broken, you'll commit to living with it for a good while. With UULT's laddering portion taking up 4 weeks, that is the minimum you'd have to deal with a potentially problematic Pokemon. If you want to commit for all of UUPL, that's a minimum of 9 weeks. I think the decision the tier leaders came to is the most sensible: let UULT run its course in the laddering portion, then have a public suspect test. Granted, whether Mega Sableye gets quickbanned or not in the first place depends on the council votes, but if they believe Mega Sableye to be healthy enough to not have a serious impact on the quality of these tours, so be it. I just don't think they should vote to keep it to see how it fits or anything like that, because that can all still be done later and if there are any concerns regarding Mega Sableye, it should go for now. Whatever the case, there will be a Mega Sableye suspect so if you have any cool ideas for M-Sab builds, you'll get to test those soon enough no matter the decision.

 

[Taptricity]

Alright well I guess I could pitch in my thoughts on the whole Mega Sableye situation instead of creating more shitty memes and baiting your likes.

I am not convinced that Mega Sableye is broken in the metagame. If we can compare Mega Sableye to broken frog Mega Venusaur, there is a difference between how a defensive Pokemon can completely warp the metagame into its favor. I was at one point on the side of keeping Mega Venusaur all those months ago but from how the meta looked back then, Mega Venusaur warped the shit out of it. Mega Venusaur fully encouraged teams consisting of Venu/Clanger/Scarf Dark/Venu check and any playstyle that strayed from this norm was largely inferior. Mega Sableye on paper seemed to accentuate Stall builds but its only benefit is blocking hazards from Defensive rockers and has a large opportunity cost compared to other Megas. Stall already has strategies that stall out hazards through Pressure stalling with Moltres and Articuno and these two have far more reasons to be worth considering (whether having great resistances or compressing Heal Bell) as anti-hazard mons over Mega Sableye in my opinion. I actually think that Mega Sableye is a healthy addition to the tier, it just will take some adapting. I believe the addition of a Defensive Pokemon that that cannot be beaten through traditional means of stalling out encourages more offensive playstyles and strategies which preserves a strong balance in UnderUsed considering the bulkier and slower metagame that has ensued within the tier albeit with a HO here and there. Fairy-types were already on the influx in the tier anyway due to Hydreigon being the most splashable Pokemon out there. Overall, I'm leaning more towards keeping Mega Sableye throughout the duration of the Ladder Tour until it ends and we receive a possible suspect test. It's an interesting choice for Balance builds (and could even work as a Bulky CM sweeper) but other than that it doesn't seem that remotely threatening for UnderUsed to my own and many other's surprise.

 

[Ranger Mike]

Hey so I'm gonna keep this short and concise because I haven't actually made a legit forums post in like 2+ years. I just grinded 25 games on the ladder for the ladder tournament over a few hours going 25-1 and I'm definitely kind of confused to say the least. Anyways, why exactly is Mega Altaria not being suspected/banned? This pokemon is absolutely way too flexible and nigh uncounterable through its wide variety of sets. The RMT That I stole used the bulky dd refresh set and it just eats stall and still does incredibly well against offense due to Mega Alt's defensive typing. I feel like this is all too obvious so is there something that I'm missing that makes Mega Altaria absolutely batshit insane? Every single game I played pretty much was just weakening steels and then cleaning up with mega altaria because it can set up on like 75% of the tier.

 

[Mysil]

Hey so I'm gonna keep this short and concise because I haven't actually made a legit forums post in like 2+ years. I just grinded 25 games on the ladder for the ladder tournament over a few hours going 25-1 and I'm definitely kind of confused to say the least. Anyways, why exactly is Mega Altaria not being suspected/banned? This pokemon is absolutely way too flexible and nigh uncounterable through its wide variety of sets. The RMT That I stole used the bulky dd refresh set and it just eats stall and still does incredibly well against offense due to Mega Alt's defensive typing. I feel like this is all too obvious so is there something that I'm missing that makes Mega Altaria absolutely batshit insane? Every single game I played pretty much was just weakening steels and then cleaning up with mega altaria because it can set up on like 75% of the tier.

Unless you have a magneton, the argument that you 'Just have to weaken steels' isnt a very good one. Any mon wreaks havoc with its checks whittled. Also steels arent the only countermeasures. Amoongus is a complete counter and notoriously hard to take down. There are also several other good poison types like the nidos or tentacruel. Altaria also doesnt rly fit on offense because it needs time to get the ball rolling and is slow and spends its time roosting before it does. The type of teams it fits on can easily get overwhelmed by HOs with alot of offensive momentum

 

[Ranger Mike]

Unless you have a magneton, the argument that you 'Just have to weaken steels' isnt a very good one. Any mon wreaks havoc with its checks whittled. Also steels arent the only countermeasures. Amoongus is a complete counter and notoriously hard to take down. There are also several other good poison types like the nidos or tentacruel. Altaria also doesnt rly fit on offense because it needs time to get the ball rolling and is slow and spends its time roosting before it does. The type of teams it fits on can easily get overwhelmed by HOs with alot of offensive momentum

Honestly with entry hazards being as insane as they are wearing down checks is not nearly as daunting of a task as you make it out to be, not to mention chip damage from other factors such as the omnipresent scald. Also your argument discarding running magneton with altaria doesn't really make any sense to me? Additionally Mega Altaria can just run cotton guard if you need it to beat offense it literally can customize its moveset to beat any team comp. You can run eq/fire blast to neuter steels and amoongus it has virtually no safe switch in to all of its sets.

Edit: Here's the rmt that I stole and have based all of these assessments off of
Araquanid @ Focus Sash
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sticky Web
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Magic Coat

Terrakion @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 220 Atk / 36 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance

Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Quick Attack
- Knock Off

Bisharp @ Black Glasses
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Low Kick

Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Pixilate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Frustration
- Refresh
- Roost

Celebi @ Psychium Z
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam

PS Araquanid is such a good anti lead

 

[Estarossa]

The main issue with altaria in my eyes (while I love it and wouldn't care if didn't get suspected, I also wouldn't be against a suspect) is how versatile it's potential sets are coupled with how assuming the wrong set can lead to an automatic loss , since refresh counters toxic stalling it, fire blast deals with the steels and even amoongus with a few evs, and cotton guard both deal with the steels etc, eq deals with the non amoongus poison types, with each of these sets having wildly different counters. Nothing else is quite so devastating after a single turn of guessing the wrong set as altaria is, as it can be near impossible to beat it in these scenarios.

 

[Ranger Mike]

The main issue with altaria in my eyes (while I love it and wouldn't care if didn't get suspected, I also wouldn't be against a suspect) is how versatile it's potential sets are coupled with how assuming the wrong set can lead to an automatic loss, since refresh counters toxic stalling it, fire blast and cotton guard both deal with the steels etc, eq deals with the non amoongus poison types, with each of these sets having wildly different counters. Nothing else is quite so devastating after a single turn of guessing the wrong set as altaria is, as it can be near impossible to beat it in these scenarios.

Wholeheartedly agree, the versatility of mega alt means that its checks fluctuate so much based on whichever set one is running. Was mega altaria always legal this gen? Sorry I haven’t taken mons seriously in a long time so I’m not caught up with the shifts in the meta at all, especially given uu’s unorthodox history with bans and suspect testing.

 

[VCrakeV]

Wholeheartedly agree, the versatility of mega alt means that its checks fluctuate so much based on whichever set one is running. Was mega altaria always legal this gen? Sorry I haven’t taken mons seriously in a long time so I’m not caught up with the shifts in the meta at all, especially given uu’s unorthodox history with bans and suspect testing.

I'll second that. Just look at some stall checks for Malt:

Avalugg checks most sets well, but drops to fire blast.

Quag loses to refresh sets, unless you use curse, but it also loses to special sets regardless (which are more viable now, since it can use hyper voice with Clanger gone).

Moltres can't toxic stall refresh sets.

Anyway, I feel like this is off topic, so let's stick to Sab discussion (that is what this thread is for, right?). Otherwise, I could say what has been said of Malt applies to Infernape. Moltres, Mantine, and Jellicent check NP sets, but lose to thunder punch sets. Malt checks some sets, but loses to those using poison jab or gunk shot. Gligar checks physical sets but loses to special sets. You switch to your check, and it drops, gets set up on, or gets too low to recover from.

 

[Estarossa]

Anyway, I feel like this is off topic, so let's stick to Sab discussion (that is what this thread is for, right?). Otherwise, I could say what has been said of Malt applies to Infernape. Moltres, Mantine, and Jellicent check NP sets, but lose to thunder punch sets. Malt checks some sets, but loses to those using poison jab or gunk shot. Gligar checks physical sets but loses to special sets. You switch to your check, and it drops, gets set up on, or gets too low to recover from.

Not to continue derailing further, but there is a key difference between infernape and m-alt here, in that m-alt's set up includes speed boosts and means the only way to revenge it at +2 is through a scizor's BP or a mon that can actually take a +2 frustration and ohko back, while scarfers or mons that are naturally faster ie. starmie/latias are always able to revenge infernape unless they are vacuum weak, especially since it is pretty frail compared to m-alt's substantial natural bulk.

 

[Hogg]

The council has voted, and, in a 10-2 vote, determined that Mega Sableye will be BANNED from UnderUsed. While the council unanimously agreed that Mega Sableye deserves a full suspect test and could potentially be acceptable in UU, the majority of council members believed that its effect on the metagame was significant enough to ban it until such a test can take place. We will follow up with a full public suspect test to determine if it should be unbanned in the future, to be scheduled shortly after the conclusion of the laddering stage of the UU Ladder Tour.

Vote breakdown is as follows:

Votes

Thanks to all who provided feedback here, on discord and in the PS UU room.

Marty The Immortal please remove Mega Sableye from the ladder.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Wow when did Aim become UU council. Grats Aim, grats UU ladder for surviving 3 days of hell

 

[DemonicRex]

The council has voted, and, in a 10-2 vote, determined that Mega Sableye will be BANNED from UnderUsed.

Yay, spikes HO isn't dead!
VIVA LA FROSLASS!!!

 

[Sickist]

The council has voted, and, in a 10-2 vote, determined that Mega Sableye will be BANNED from UnderUsed.

 

[Dj Breloominati♬]

Hey , since msab is banned now I would assume that it's not allowed in the rest of the qualifiers for the ladder tour. Is it really fair for the small portion of people who had time (in this cycle) to have used this beast , while the others can't? Everyone else is certainly put at a disadvantage according to me. Yes ,it will make team building easier( no need to prep for msab anymore ) , but at the same time , the balance teams which we have been using will also suffer a major setback. Is there any other answer to this problem?

 

[TentaBuildings]

I've seen some people talking about Mega Alt, and want to give my own opinion.

I think it's currently very good and close to being a suspect worthy pokemon. it has a lot of good sets, like dd, defog etc. DD sets are so good because for an offensive pokemon it has a stupid good typing and bulk. it sets up on a good portion of the tier rn, and not a WHOLE lot of counterplay exsists. scizor is probably one of the main ones but what if mega alt is the special set? i think all of the sets combined mega alt makes an enormous threat and could even see it being S rank, though idk if its suspect worthy

can we maybe get the opinion of the council, or a council member, to let us know how they think of mega alt in the meta? i think a lot of us would appreciate that, since our view on the mon might just be different

 

[Hogg]

can we maybe get the opinion of the council, or a council member, to let us know how they think of mega alt in the meta? i think a lot of us would appreciate that, since our view on the mon might just be different

This one council member's opinion:

I think Mega Altaria and Scizor are probably the two 'mons most likely to just completely turn a game around and win. They're maybe slightly easier to wall than Latias (but only slightly), but they have the ability to just clean through teams in the mid- to late-game in a way that no other 'mons can in UU. I tend to be of the opinion that neither one is actually bad for the meta (I think they actually have a net positive effect overall), but if I absolutely had to say something was overwhelming, it would probably be one of those two.

But...... I also feel like both Scizor and Alt actually do have reasonable counterplay in practice. Yes, a lot of games involve figuring out how to eliminate or wear down said counterplay and winning. Look at several of Christo or rob's SPL games, for example, where they do exactly that. But that to me doesn't make something inherently broken. And both 'mons have a lot of positive attributes that one could argue actually hold this tier together, limiting the effectiveness of a huge number of otherwise overwhelming wallbreakers and offensive threats.

 

[Ranger Mike]

This one council member's opinion:

I think Mega Altaria and Scizor are probably the two 'mons most likely to just completely turn a game around and win. They're maybe slightly easier to wall than Latias (but only slightly), but they have the ability to just clean through teams in the mid- to late-game in a way that no other 'mons can in UU. I tend to be of the opinion that neither one is actually bad for the meta (I think they actually have a net positive effect overall), but if I absolutely had to say something was overwhelming, it would probably be one of those two.

But...... I also feel like both Scizor and Alt actually do have reasonable counterplay in practice. Yes, a lot of games involve figuring out how to eliminate or wear down said counterplay and winning. Look at several of Christo or rob's SPL games, for example, where they do exactly that. But that to me doesn't make something inherently broken. And both 'mons have a lot of positive attributes that one could argue actually hold this tier together, limiting the effectiveness of a huge number of otherwise overwhelming wallbreakers and offensive threats.

There's reasonable counterplay but it is so fucking versatile and feels like one of the downright most oppressive mons that I've ever seen in a tier, although with mega sableye banned there is one less pokemon to set up on though also one less mega slot to be taken up so I think this meta playing out is in the best interest before banning mega altaria imo. Also let's go Rob rob is the homie and a sick player happy to hear these legends are doing well!