Metagame np: SS DOU stage 0: Begin Again | Beat Up banned

Already posted this on the coalossal thread, by I think it fits better here:

Opening doubles with choice scarf flareon and lava plume, should outspeed most things. Lava plume would then trigger steam engine and, with the new in turn adjustment of move order, coalossal could get of a powerfull stab burn out to loose it's four time weakness before it gets hit.

Am I missing something? Could this make coalossal viable?
 
Already posted this on the coalossal thread, by I think it fits better here:

Opening doubles with choice scarf flareon and lava plume, should outspeed most things. Lava plume would then trigger steam engine and, with the new in turn adjustment of move order, coalossal could get of a powerfull stab burn out to loose it's four time weakness before it gets hit.

Am I missing something? Could this make coalossal viable?
This is similar to Discharge and Surf spam, and unfortately, they aren't successful in competitive play. Experienced players will immediately catch on to your spam/strategy and counter it accordingly, particularly through Wide Guard or Rain. Not to discourage you, but Coalossal is a slow mon, too. It will require Trick Room to be effective.

When building teams, I highly recommend that you try to make your teams flexible as possible. That way, you will not have to rely on one strategy and that one only. Hf~
 
This is similar to Discharge and Surf spam, and unfortately, they aren't successful in competitive play. Experienced players will immediately catch on to your spam/strategy and counter it accordingly, particularly through Wide Guard or Rain. Not to discourage you, but Coalossal is a slow mon, too. It will require Trick Room to be effective.

When building teams, I highly recommend that you try to make your teams flexible as possible. That way, you will not have to rely on one strategy and that one only. Hf~
I think you misunderstood what I am trying to do.
Lava plume is not supposed to be spammed, it is supposed to trigger steam engine which makes coalossal basically the fastest mon in game (with 32 evs in speed and a neutral speed nature it will outspeed dragapult with benifitial nature and full ev after steam engine is triggered)
Now coalossal can use burn out and get rid of it's 4 time weaknesses before anyone can abuse them.
You now have a very fast coalossal with no 4 time weakness.
You can switch out flareon and later reuse it for flare blitz or flamethrower or shadow ball.
From here on I don't see how this is not flexible, you could take this in many directions.
 
I think you misunderstood what I am trying to do.
Lava plume is not supposed to be spammed, it is supposed to trigger steam engine which makes coalossal basically the fastest mon in game (with 32 evs in speed and a neutral speed nature it will outspeed dragapult with benifitial nature and full ev after steam engine is triggered)
Now coalossal can use burn out and get rid of it's 4 time weaknesses before anyone can abuse them.
You now have a very fast coalossal with no 4 time weakness.
You can switch out flareon and later reuse it for flare blitz or flamethrower or shadow ball.
From here on I don't see how this is not flexible, you could take this in many directions.
The thing is what if the mon that is supposed to Lava Plume it is already eliminated? Then, you have a mon that is very underwhelming. You still have a lot of weakness as a Rock-type, too. But yeah, if it works, then it works.
 

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I think you misunderstood what I am trying to do.
Lava plume is not supposed to be spammed, it is supposed to trigger steam engine which makes coalossal basically the fastest mon in game (with 32 evs in speed and a neutral speed nature it will outspeed dragapult with benifitial nature and full ev after steam engine is triggered)
Now coalossal can use burn out and get rid of it's 4 time weaknesses before anyone can abuse them.
You now have a very fast coalossal with no 4 time weakness.
You can switch out flareon and later reuse it for flare blitz or flamethrower or shadow ball.
From here on I don't see how this is not flexible, you could take this in many directions.
I think some of the main issues with using Coalossal in a dedicated setup mode like that are:
  • You have to use Flareon, a decidedly suboptimal pick.
  • Even with a Choice Scarf and a positive nature, Flareon isn't that fast—for example, Dragapult and Barraskewda still outspeed it, and you need to keep in mind that the new speed mechanics apply to the opponent too: opposing Prankster Tailwind + [most Pokemon] beats this, as does any form of Swift Swim or Sand Rush. Any one of these (except Dragapult, which probably won't OHKO either mon) will probably stop your strategy immediately.
  • Using Flareon alongside Coalossal stacks your weakness to Ground- and Water-type attacks, which are probably both somewhere in the top 5 offensive types in this format.
  • Even after all that, you're still left with a Coalossal with its mediocre base 80 Attack stat and no way to boost it against opposing Intimidate. You'll have to invest significantly into Speed if you want to beat opposing Swift Swim / Sand Rush / etc, meaning fewer EVs remaining for bulk, offense, etc.
I think that this strategy indeed falls under what Test Bots classifies as "not flexible"; you're forced to have these Pokemon both on the field at the same time, with Flareon not locked into some other move besides Lava Plume, in order to make full use of this. This generally means you have to lead with both Pokemon, which makes the strategy sort of predictable. Even once you get going, Coalossal being a generally poor Pokemon makes the strategy kind of weak.
 
The thing is what if the mon that is supposed to Lava Plume it is already eliminated? Then, you have a mon that is very underwhelming. You still have a lot of weakness as a Rock-type, too. But yeah, if it works, then it works.
What can eliminate choice scarf flareon before it gets its move in?
Basically the only meta thread I can think of is special dragapult if it happens to run hydropump and starts the battle.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

The rock weaknesses are still there I agree. But that coalossal looks scary
 
What can eliminate choice scarf flareon before it gets its move in?
Basically the only meta thread I can think of is special dragapult if it happens to run hydropump and starts the battle.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

The rock weaknesses are still there I agree. But that coalossal looks scary
Doubles is a meta where speed and priority matters. One of the most common ways to outspeed opposing mons is the combination of Fake Out (priority) + Tailwind (doubles the team's speed). Other methods include Trick Room (unlikely to be used when faced against a slow mon like Coalossal), Icy Wind, and T-wave. Archtypes like Sand and Rain, which has a mon that sets up the weather and another that takes advantage of weather by doubling its speed, can easily overwhelm Scarfed Flareon and Coalossal with spread moves like Rock Slide, High Horsepower, Muddy Water, etc.
 
Already posted this on the coalossal thread, by I think it fits better here:

Opening doubles with choice scarf flareon and lava plume, should outspeed most things. Lava plume would then trigger steam engine and, with the new in turn adjustment of move order, coalossal could get of a powerfull stab burn out to loose it's four time weakness before it gets hit.

Am I missing something? Could this make coalossal viable?
There's a cheesy strategy going around in VGC, with a non-stab fast Surf (from Dragapult) hitting a weakness policy Coalassal which also dinamaxes that same turn for Rock attack to set Sand.

While it's pretty fun in theory, in paper it only works with surprise effect, and anyone who knows it's a thing and sees a Coalassal without a TR setter smells it from miles away, PLUS it requires to invest the Dinamax.

I'm afraid aside from being a funny gimmick, Coalassal isn't going to pull out any Steam Engine sweep in 6v6 meta. (note that even at +6, it's so slow it can *still* get outsped by +1 faster mons or scarfers, as well as just getting revenge killed)
 
Nobody has posted full teams yet, so here are two teams of mine that feel pretty balanced in this meta. Rain and sand are definitely dominant right now, and Braviary and Corviknight are basically the new staple Flying-types in the wake of Landorus-T's exodus.

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Fossil Rain
Crovenknight (Corviknight) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Iron Head
- Bulk Up
- Roost

Ludicolo @ Assault Vest
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Muddy Water
- Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam

Pelipper @ Focus Sash
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- Tailwind
- Protect

Dragomish (Dracovish) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Crunch
- Psychic Fangs
- Rock Slide

Dracozolt @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Dragon Claw
- Low Kick
- Protect

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 88 Def / 80 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect
Corviknight is the ideal Dynamax user if your matchup prevails; the speed and defense boosts you get in Dynamax mode transition well into a Bulk Up + Roost endgame sweep. Use Rain + scarf Dracovish to keep Corviknight's checks at bay. Dracovolt is best used with tailwind or Max Airstrike support as a mid-game breaker. Ferrothorn is a great defensive pivot and alternative defensive wincon in case Corviknight goes down.


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Sand Balance
Braviary (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- Tailwind
- Protect

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- High Horsepower
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Protect

Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Protect

Sylveon @ Life Orb
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Mystical Fire
- Moonblast
- Protect

Arcanine @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Snarl
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Bounce
- Power Whip
- Dragon Dance
Braviary is the ideal Dynamax user if your matchup prevails; the speed and attack boosts you get in Dynamax mode will lead you to a strong mid-game position where you have strong and fast Pokemon applying pressure to your opponent. Gyarados also makes for a good Dynamax candidate, especially if you can get a Dragon Dance boost off before committing to the Dynamax. Use sand sweeping to apply immediate pressure and, in a pinch, you can Dynamax your Excadrill to go toe-to-to with your opponent's runaway Dynamax sweep. Overall, I think the Pokemon on this team just have a lot of balance and type synergy. Even though it's a "sand team," this so far feels like the closest thing to a "standard balance" team imo.
 

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Hey guys looking at making a trick room team. I have my trick room setters lined up already. What pokes do people things will be the best with trick room support this gen. Im thinking Copperajah and maybe Curselax?
 
Hey guys looking at making a trick room team. I have my trick room setters lined up already. What pokes do people things will be the best with trick room support this gen. Im thinking Copperajah and maybe Curselax?
Think about ading one of the Electric fossiles as max punchout from flying types is the main threat to both snorlax and copperjaw, also consider checks to anything that may kill your tr setters, eg hatterene, you'd have to check excadrill for example if you use her, and develop backup strategies to ensure a sucessful tr even if you make a bad prediction on turn 1.
 
Think about ading one of the Electric fossiles as max punchout from flying types is the main threat to both snorlax and copperjaw, also consider checks to anything that may kill your tr setters, eg hatterene, you'd have to check excadrill for example if you use her, and develop backup strategies to ensure a sucessful tr even if you make a bad prediction on turn 1.
Cool i might have a play around with those fossils. Thanks
 

Mizuhime

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I'm posting for once.

Bulk Corv is actually a super big bitch and an early contender for one of the best sets in the tier. Sand is back and as dominant as ever thanks to the lack of good intimidate Pokemon. Some other good finds from early early in the meta are Dracovish doing 8 billion damage, Braviary being one of the best dynamax Pokemon bar none, Sylveon doing Sylveon things, and Barraskewda being one of the most promising new Pokemon. When the proper speed mechanics are implemented on PS I imagine we'll see a skyrocket in Whimsicott usage as well as Grimmsnarl getting better.
 
Just managed to reach the top spot on the DOU ladder, this is the team

:obstagoon::rotom-fan::dracovish::salazzle::aegislash::whimsicott:
Obstagoon (F) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Obstruct
- Facade
- Close Combat

Rotom-Fan @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 140 HP / 152 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Air Slash
- Volt Switch
- Nasty Plot

Whimsicott (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Encore
- Moonblast
- Light Screen

Dracovish @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Crunch
- Leech Life
- Ice Fang

Salazzle (F) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fake Out
- Heat Wave
- Sludge Bomb
- Protect

Aegislash (M) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Wide Guard

Whimsicott with the new speed mechanics is easily the best tailwind user in terms of pure support, light screen/reflect are really helpful to stall out dynamax.

Obstagoon is actually pretty solid, dying to max fighting moves through protect isn't exactly nice but it deals massive damage to pretty much anything thanks to its coverage, especially gastrodon to make room for dracovish.

Speaking of, dracovish is absurd, it kills basically everything that doesn't resist it, only things it struggles against are rain teams, gastrodon and dragapult to some extent, otherwise it wins games alone.

Rotom fan is a pretty cool anti meta pick, we all know how dumb the flying max move is, and this guy can use it while also killing most other users with electric STAB, it resists both of braviary's moves; the set overall is an hybrid between a pivot and a sweeper, volt switch+np can be awkward but dynamaxing makes it work, and having a way to bring in obstagoon safely is pretty helpful.

Salazzle is pretty good, it gets fake out, it's faster than anything unboosted bar dragapult and barraskewda and it's a solid answer to both steel and fairy types, I don't dynamax this gal much but the poison max move is of course great. Air ballon should honestly be a focus sash, but I also wanted to use use this team in vgc and whimsicott needed it more.

aegislash is mostly filler honestly, but this team really needed a fairy resist and some bulk in general, also wide guard is always helpful, could probably use some more defensive investement and I'm not sure if min speed is the right call, it's faster than most TR abusers anyway.

Edit: uh, how do I remove the attachments without taking out the sprites from the post?
Arcticblast edit: use :pokemon-name: to insert the sprite as an emote

Edit2: thanks :3
 
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:grimmsnarl: :gothitelle: :dragapult: :indeedee: :kommo-o: :snorlax:

https://pokepast.es/8c364f3499d5feeb

this includes every trashy aspect of the metagame so far - abuses dyna, gothitelle (through GMax Snooze + trap), and stupid setup mons + indeedee. i think this can be optimized for sure but there are a lot of gimmicky ways to avoid playing pokemon in the standard balance metagame that we would come to expect from a limited dex. I'd like to see SPL play out but holy hell is Dynamaxing a dumb mechanic atm that I'd probably like to see looked at further.

other quick points:
- I'm really not impressed by Bulk Up Corviknight as everyone else has been. I've been shying away from Intimidate on almost all of my teams as a result of all the awful 'mons you have to use to get it, so Mirror Armor hasn't really been coming into play, as a small factor, but mostly I think this is a big status metagame where Wisps and TWaves can be thrown around with impunity, seriously killing its potential.

- Braviary seems like the big contender for a Tier 1 threat considering how scary its offensive stats and coverage are with speed control in both Max Airstream and Tailwind. Huge fan of Lum on this over any other item considering how irritating TWave and Wisp are and how unnecessary the extra Sitrus bulk is after you Dynamax.

- Drifblim is the other stupid Wisp ghost that won't die thanks to Strength Sap, and offensive Indeedee-M has offenses on par with Koko last gen. Potent core to throw on offense.
 

DaAwesomeDude1

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Hello, here's a team I've been using with the new speed mechs that's been a lot of fun. EVs can definitely be optimized btw

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Whimsicott @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Tailwind
- Worry Seed
- Taunt

Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Crunch
- Ice Fang
- Psychic Fangs

Scrafty @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Throat Chop
- Close Combat
- Detect

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Body Press
- Bulk Up
- Roost

Rotom-Wash @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 48 SpA / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Sylveon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Mystical Fire
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball


The basic idea is just to take advantage of new speed mechs so that sylveon / dracovish can tear through the opponent's team / weaken things that threaten corviknight and then setup with corviknight late-game. Worry seed whimsicott is goat because you can take away excadrill / ludicolo's abilities and then outspeed and bop it with dracovish under tailwind. I also removed gastrodon's ability once and knocked it out with dracovish which gave me a good laugh.

I don't really have any meta takes that other people already haven't said other than tier 1 whimsicott and dracovish. also fuck dynamax
 

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Yoda2798

Not the user you are looking for
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I'd like to post a team I've been using lately and give some thoughts on the meta.


Drifblim @ Psychic Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 224 Def / 252 SpD / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
- Tailwind

Indeedee (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Hyper Voice
- Mystical Fire
- Protect

Sylveon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Hyper Beam
- Mystical Fire
- Shadow Ball

Gastrodon-East @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 40 SpA / 52 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Protect

Arcanine @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Snarl
- Roar
- Protect

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Brave Bird
- Body Press
- Bulk Up
- Roost

Drifblim + Indeedee-M is such a fantastic combo. Drifblim is great at dealing with physical attackers through Will-O-Wisp (when it hits) and Strength Sap, and is one of the few coveted Pokemon with Tailwind. Unburden ensures you move before almost anything (Timid + 32 EVs ensure you outspeed Timid Scarf Rotom) and can dampen the strength of prominent physical attackers before they attack. It also lets you take advantage of the new Speed mechanics to set Tailwind and have your teammate immediately move quicker. Indeedee is a brilliant partner, being able to fire off powerful Psychics, while being fairly quick already. LO Psychic gets OHKOs or nearabouts on a lot of stuff (e.g. 252 SpA Life Orb Indeedee Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish in Psychic Terrain: 298-352 (92.8 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO, 252 SpA Life Orb Indeedee Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados in Psychic Terrain: 247-292 (74.6 - 88.2%)) so with some chip like SR or Drifblim's Shadow Ball you can guarantee a lot of things will just drop. Dynamaxing also widens the range of Pokemon you can OHKO and patches up its sub-par bulk.

This team also features Gastrodon + Arcanine + Corviknight, which is a balance core I like (particularly Gastro + Croven). With Dracovish and rain running around Storm Drain is a really useful ability to have. Gastrodon + Croven can take on rain teams pretty well, as even if they have Ludicolo you can just Protect Gastro while bird takes it out (they usually don't have Protect either which helps). Aside from Water-types, Gastrodon also deals with Electric-types for Croven such as Dracozolt or Toxtricity. Rotom-Mow is an issue, but that's where Arcanine comes in. As long as you can deal with Defiant then Intimidate is still useful to have, and having STAB Fire coverage for Steels is strong. Snarl is also good, and I've found Roar to be extremely helpful in beating Trick Room teams.


Now for some general thoughts on the wider meta. I know this stuff has already been said but rain and sand are really top tier, along with Braviary, Sylveon, and Corviknight being the top non-weather Pokemon IMO. Beat Up is banworthy good, Dynamax itself isn't. Status (Para and Burn) are both really good in this meta, as is Prankster. Dragapult is very good, being blazing fast and decent offensively (not sure whether physical or special is better yet) while being Fake Out immune and a fast Wisp user. Dracovish (as well as Dracozolt) and Gyarados are powerful offensive Pokemon. Flying-types are great, so an Electric-type such as a Rotom is a great team addition.

I'd also like to list some notable Speed tiers I've found around the range 200-300. Speed listed is the one required to outspeed given Pokemon, and (at +2) means your Pokemon is at +2 Speed or in Tailwind/has Unburden boost.
205 - :dracovish: Jolly Scarf Dracovish (at +2)
211 - :dragapult: Dragapult (at +2)
216 - :gyarados: +1 Jolly Gyarados (at +2)
220 - :sylveon: Modest (please don't start running Timid) Sylveon
222 - :tyranitar: Adamant Tyranitar
224 - :rotom-mow:Timid Scarf Rotom (at +2)
230 - :pelipper: Modest Pelipper
240 - :ludicolo::bisharp: Modest Ludicolo/Adamant Bisharp
244 - :tyranitar: Jolly Tyranitar
250 - :dracozolt::dracovish: Adamant Dracozolt/Dracovish
252 - :pelipper: Timid Pelipper
260 - :braviary: Adamant Braviary
274 - :dracozolt::dracovish: Jolly Dracozolt/Dracovish
276 - :excadrill: Adamant Excadrill
282 - :dragapult: Dragapult (at +1)
285 - :braviary: Jolly Braviary
288 - :gyarados: Jolly Gyarados
290 - :arcanine::indeedee: Neutral-nature base 95s (Arcanine, Indeedee-M)
303 - :excadrill: Jolly Excadrill
318 - :arcanine::indeedee: Positive-nature base 95s (Arcanine, Indeedee-M)

PS: I'm currently making a sets compendium teambuilder thing which you can check out at https://swsh-dou-sets.yoda2798.repl.co/. It's not completely done and I don't have sets for everything yet, but there is a bunch of Pokemon there ordered roughly by viability that you can use to quickly make a team.
 
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Excashovel (Excadrill) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 180 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head
- Earthquake

Braviary @ Lum Berry
Ability: Defiant
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird
- Iron Head
- Tailwind

Hydreigon (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Heat Wave
- Draco Meteor
- Protect

Tyranitar (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Low Kick
- Ice Punch

Rotom-Wash @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 76 SpA / 68 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Darmanitan-Galar (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head

I had been able to confortably stay in the top 25 over the last few days thanks to this team, but overnight nothing worked anymore, even this seemingly foolproof strategy I had developed. I think that your unbiased opinions on it should helpshed light on the underlying issues I can't get my head around. I'd like your feedback on what you think has changed in the meta today, and if possible counterplay options. I'm open to any suggestions however radical or ackward they may be.

P.S.: I'd also apreciate to know how to setup those fancy team displays everybody is using, I'm still a bit new to the forum.
 
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Memoric

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ayy bois it's murkrow mack posting a team that got me #1 on the ladder.

:whimsicott: :arcanine: :dracozolt: :braviary: :corviknight: :mew:
NO CAP (Whimsicott) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Beat Up
- Tailwind
- Memento

ALWAYS FACTUAL (Arcanine) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Extreme Speed
- Protect

NO SSN (Dracozolt) @ Choice Band
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Facade
- Dragon Claw
- Breaking Swipe

I'M A SAVAGE (Braviary) (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 48 Def / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- Tailwind
- Protect

DOIN' BAD SHIT (Corviknight) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Calm Nature
- Brave Bird
- Body Press
- Bulk Up
- Roost

DEATH AND TAXES (Mew) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Transform
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunderbolt
- Leaf Storm


As can be seen, the team epicly utilizes the infamous Justified + Beat Up core of Arcanine and Whimsicott, backed up by double bird and the pairing of Dracozolt and Mew that I consider to be utility picks on the team. The team rides strongly on the particular offensive presence the two modes of offenses (JBU / Birds) can provide; it can win with either but it occasionally comes down to one opening up for the other. Dracozolt and Mew, even though I consider them more as pivots, are also particularly in tune with the kind of aggression I want to play with.

ArcaCott is the team's most notable and pretty much primary way of opening up a game, the team riding on how much of a hole the two can punch, pushing an advantage that hopefully becomes insurmountable at best and something my guys can ride on at worst. With Dynamax, Arcanine becomes such a menace as taking it down becomes a bit of a complicated affair thanks to the boosted bulk, and there's also considering that it can find itself +6 as well as supported by Tailwind. As aggressive and ambitious of a play that it sounds, at times going in with Dynamax turn 1 can prove correct as it exhaust an opponent's resources really quickly, much to their chagrin. In terms of notable move choices, I prefer Moonblast and Memento on Whimsicott for the offensive presence on Dracovish + Dragapult and I like the quick positioning the death + drops can afford; Arcanine runs FB / CC / ESpeed because I feel that this coverage can hit the most relevant targets by far, myself being content with Max Strike for Water-types as well as the Speed drop being occasionally of service.

The decision to run double bird was mostly personal preference, though one should understand that these two are already viable individually. Though similar in classification, the way they play out is different; Braviary is for a more seesaw-y offensive game, while Corviknight is a bit more of an endgamer. I chose Bulk Up Corviknight purely because I wanted to use it lmao. The way they use the DMax should the responsibility rest on them is pretty similar, as they push damage and get specific boosts as the situation requires.

The last two choices are the most variable slots, though the sets I also chose for them should look dubious as hell too but bear with me here. The reason I chose Dracozolt was specifically because I wanted a decent check to rain teams in particular as well as Rotom-W; it was a Pokemon that could reasonably stand up to either without being a pos. I elected for Volt Absorb instead of Hustle because I thought I'd like for it to specifically take Electric-type attacks repeatedly if ever + honestly Hustle is overkill and will only really erode my trust on Dracovolt when I need it the most. Mew, on the other hand, was picked for its ability to check rain, Gastrodon, Rotom-W, and birds; it's basically Rotom-C except it's not shit, lack of a Water-resist notwithstanding. The moves Thunderbolt and Leaf Storm have saved this team's ass a couple of times, with Will-O-Wisp similarly so. What's epic about it, however, is its access to Transform; there have been many a game that I won by virtue of fucking around with double boosted bird or double +6 Arcanine. Mew gets a good amount of looks for this in conjunction with Memento Whimsicott; I honestly did not account for this while building initially but I'm definitely not complaining!

In terms of weaknesses, the team has one to opposing Electric-types, borne out of the fact that I'm running double bird. While this is not an unsolveable problem, it's definitely a tricky match-up to play. Rain can also be a bit tricky, but much more doable; the match-up just needs a bit of creativity and a little flexing, to be sure. Some teambuilding decisions can be considered suboptimal from a certain lens, but this particular six is what I decided was fit for how I wanted to play it. One could probably eschew double bird and run just Brav; another possibility is simply retaining Arc / Cott / Brav and fiddling with the last 3 to fix certain match-ups, but of course that's pretty much making a new team at that point.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1019890069-dr1wunwq4t6ne4yv6j6sjebcfujykjbpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1019888882-8x1wn8o8llsvr7yvgltxgi5jq35d6nopw


In this short experience of the metagame through the ladder, I can make the astute observation of it being quite fast paced, pretty on par with BW DOU's speed of play. The new Speed mechanics as well as the inherent nature of Dynamax puts quite a strong emphasis on tempo; most good teams I've seen all involve some form of instant Speed, whether it be through Blim, Cott, Sand, or Rain. I am excited to see how this metagame develops further in kickoff as well as SPL. I don't have much takeaways yet due to the limited nature of the ladder, but I will say that Dynamax as a mechanic has... grown on me, if you will, and I have let go of my initial qualms on it. I still hold reservations, to be fair, but it being balanced in a DOU context is something that I am considering. Could be wrong, idk.
 
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Level 51

shooting all the sky full of holes
is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past Smogon Snake Draft Champion
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Sometimes when I'm building a team, especially in a new format, I put a few Pokemon in and then go like "wait so what do I struggle against / need more checks for?"; usually, I go and visit the VR thread, but you may notice that we don't have one yet. In its place, I put together a threatlist of Pokemon which I think are notable based on my personal experiences with them. It's still early into the format so a lot of the stuff on this list probably vaguely straddles the line between viability and being worthless, so take the information with a pinch of salt. It's also entirely possible that I forgot some stuff so please let me know if I missed out anything and I'll add it to this post n_n!

Quick note: I've separated different instances of the same Pokemon in cases where the Pokemon operates significantly differently (for example, playing against a typical offensive Arcanine is significantly different from playing against it at +4 Attack).

:arcanine: Arcanine (Life Orb / Choice Band)
:arcanine: Arcanine (Beat Up Target)
:barraskewda: Barraskewda (Swift Swim Attacker)
:bisharp: Bisharp (Defiant Attacker)
:braviary: Braviary (Offensive Tailwind)
:charizard: Charizard (Solar Power Attacker)
:conkeldurr: Conkeldurr (TR Attacker)
:copperajah: Copperajah (TR Attacker)
:corviknight: Corviknight (Bulky Tailwind)
Darmanitan-Galar (Choice Scarf / CBCBDARM)
:drednaw-gmax: Drednaw (Swift Swim Attacker)
:dracovish: Dracovish (Choice Scarf / Choice Band)
:dracozolt: Dracozolt (Choice Scarf / Choice Band)
:dragapult: Dragapult (Life Orb / Choice Band / Dragon Dance / Special Attacker)
:dragapult: Dragapult (Fast Will-O-Wisp)
:duraludon-gmax: Duraludon (Assault Vest / Choice Specs)
:excadrill: Excadrill (Sand Rush Attacker)
:excadrill: Excadrill (Mold Breaker)
:gardevoir: Gardevoir (Choice Scarf)
:gastrodon: Gastrodon (3 Attacks Recover)
:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl (Bulk Up)
:grimmsnarl-gmax: G-Max Grimmsnarl (G-Max Snooze)
:gyarados: Gyarados (Choice Band Moxie / Dragon Dance Moxie)
:hawlucha: Hawlucha (Seed Unburden)
:haxorus: Haxorus (Mold Breaker)
:hydreigon: Hydreigon (Life Orb / Choice Specs)
:indeedee: Indeedee (Psychic Surge Attacker)
:kommo-o: Kommo-o (Clangorous Soul + Throat Spray)
:lucario: Lucario (Beat Up Target)
:ludicolo: Ludicolo (Swift Swim Attacker)
:mamoswine: Mamoswine (Offensive)
:milotic: Milotic (Competitive Attacker)
:mimikyu: Mimikyu (Life Orb / Offensive Trick Room Setter)
:obstagoon: Obstagoon (Defiant Attacker)
:pelipper: Pelipper (Drizzle + Tailwind Attacker)
:reuniclus: Reuniclus (Offensive Trick Room Setter)
:rhyperior: Rhyperior (Trick Room Attacker)
:rotom-wash: Rotom-Wash (Offensive / Will-O-Wisp)
:rotom-heat: Rotom-Heat (Offensive / Will-O-Wisp)
:rotom-mow: Rotom-Mow (Offensive / Will-O-Wisp)
:scrafty: Scrafty (Intimidate Utility but does more damage than Hitmontop)
:seismitoad: Seismitoad (Swift Swim Attacker)
:snorlax: Snorlax (Belly Drum)
:sylveon: Sylveon (Throat Spray / Choice Specs)
:torkoal: Torkoal (Eruption Clicker)
:toxtricity: Toxtricity (Life Orb / Throat Spray)
:tyranitar: Tyranitar (WP / Life Orb)
:vanilluxe: Vanilluxe (Choice Scarf)
:vikavolt: Vikavolt (Trick Room Attacker)
:vileplume: Vileplume (Sun Attacker)
:arcanine: Arcanine (Intimidate Support)
:aromatisse: Aromatisse (Trick Room Setter)
:bronzong: Bronzong (Trick Room Setter)
:corsola-galar: Corsola-Galar (Undying Source of Pain)
:corviknight: Corviknight (Bulky Tailwind)
:drifblim: Drifblim (Tailwind Setter)
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn (Bulky Pivot)
:gastrodon: Gastrodon (3 Attacks Recover)
:gothitelle: Gothitelle (Shadow Tag Support)
:gothitelle: Gothitelle (Trick Room Setter)
:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl (Prankster Support)
:hatterene: Hatterene (Trick Room Setter)
:hitmontop: Hitmontop (Intimidate Utility)
Indeedee-F (Follow Me Support)
:lapras-gmax: G-Max Lapras (Resonance Support)
:mandibuzz: Mandibuzz (Tailwind Support)
:mew: Mew (various Mew stuff, heck if I know)
:oranguru: Oranguru (Trick Room Setter)
:raichu: Raichu (Lightning Rod Utility)
:runerigus: Runerigus (The Ladder Loves Me)
:sableye: Sableye (Prankster Toolbox)
:silvally: Silvally (Tailwind Support)
:togedemaru: Togedemaru (Lightning Rod Utility)
:togekiss: Togekiss (Follow Me Support)
:weezing-galar: Weezing-Galar (Neutralizing Gas / Misty Surge)
:whimsicott: Whimsicott (Prankster Tailwind Utility)

Hope this helps someone out there!!
 
Which set should I run for my Heliolisk to pair with Gastrodon? I'm thinking of...

Heliolisk @ Throat Spray
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Discharge
- Hyper Voice
- Focus Blast
- Surf

Heliolisk @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Discharge
- Hyper Voice
- Volt switch
- Surf
 

SMB

Akaru Kokuyo's Kawaii Neko
is a Tiering Contributor
So today I saw there was some discussion about full trick room on the smogon doubles discord and I wanted to share this full trick room team I've been working with on the past few days. I managed to top the ladder with it (for low ladder I used beat up because it's dumb then after that I started to use tr) and it seems to be decent at least for ladder. Some spreads can be improved because I didn't take too much time for that.



https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1020762152-kfuev4d5sdqnyeh1ezgixwosah8zuf5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1020845972-g5amqee5zj5dl5lqywfxe19t674wf4wpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1020803186-3dvsg3yyqs27ql7o0yu27x1t5ocpp09pw


Trick room is definitely not as strong as it was in sm; some mons that could fit on it have lost good moves, like endeavor togedemaru or after you mimikyu, intimidate nerf and dynamax mons not being affected by fake out make redirection almost mandatory in my opinion. Scarf spore rage powder butterfree seemed like a good addition because of that, it was also a mon i wanted to try because its gmax move is so cool. Dusclops and oranguru might be the two most reliable trick room setters, and torkoal, rhyperior and araquanid the best abusers. I have mixed opinions about hatterane but it's decent for sure and you can try to fish some confusions with its gmax move. Babiri or kasib berry are probably the best items it can run.

Now about dynamax, I've played around 250 games since beta and the only day I thought they were broken was day 1 and it probably was because they weren't implemented in the right way. For sure they have some overpowered effects but they don't seem to be unbalanced by any means (I'll probably change my mind after someone finds a way to abuse it).
Beat up feels kind of uncompetitive but I would wait until, at least, kick off tour has finished to take some actions and see if people can find some good counterplays. Idk if new speed mechanics will make it easier or harder to deal with.

Also, since there isn't an official viability ranking yet, I thought I could share my personal vr, I've been using this to build my teams and it might help some people for kick off tour, note that this is made by only my own opinion and I might be wrong about the viability of some of these mons https://pastebin.com/BA3DYRzp
 
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