Metagame np: SS DOU Stage 1: When I Grow Up | Dynamax Banned

[Firestorm]

Ladder was too dead for me to actually reach the 45 games:
View attachment 234429

So I'll just post what I found in this thread.
In Doubles OU gaining momentum relies on a whole lot of different strategies compared to singles. Fake out, tailwind, paralysis, quash, all strategies to try and outspeed your opponent to gain momentum. Dynamax ruins this in several ways: fake out flinches do not work, max airstream raises speed of *both* opponents, and especially due to the way speed works in gen 8, that tips the scales quite a lot. Second, dynamax provides additional bulk that allows your opponent to tank hits they normally could not have, rendering paralysis/tailwind/quash for momentum useless as well. That brings you to the point where all the metagame revolves around is dynamaxing at the correct time to tear a hole in the opponent's team to the point where they can not recover.

This is a weird way to look at doubles tbh. Board position in Doubles is more complex than Singles. There are many tools which are useful in Doubles that may not be useful in Singles. However, the identity of Doubles as a format does not rely on any of these mechanics. It's just what new players who are used to Singles notice. "Oh hey, Fake Out is a good attack? Crazy! That's awesome!" kind of like when I started up TCG and was blown away by all these useless Pokémon that were actually meta like Garbodor (used that guy for 3 years straight).

Now, Fake Out is one of the most powerful attacks in the game. Having to think before using it is not a bad thing. Tailwind is not made useless because of Max Airstream. Neither is Paralysis. Neither is Quash -- which to be honest is probably more useful than a few years ago. Dynamax even adds an extra form of speed control (Max Airstream) which is interesting with the new speed mechanics.

Additional bulk doesn't make speed control useless. Additional bulk does make the fight for better board position more interesting and favour the more skilled player. I get that the vote is over and you weren't voting but just something to think about! Doubles as a format isn't just about "Fake Out and Quash" and nerfs to those shouldn't be considered a bad thing -- especially when it's for something that adds as much as Dynamax.

 

[GRAND EMPRESS]

So, serious question. Does this mean we get to test Marshadow now?

 

[uberlegen]

Are there usage stats for pre and post dmax ban? As in, are there more DOU players or less now? Though the coronavirus factor might be more significant than anything else.

 

[HeatEdgeSword]

Are there usage stats for pre and post dmax ban? As in, are there more DOU players or less now? Though the coronavirus factor might be more significant than anything else.

It's right here. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usage-based-tier-update-for-may-2020.3663457/#post-8449916

 

[uberlegen]

It's right here. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usage-based-tier-update-for-may-2020.3663457/#post-8449916

Thank you, and maybe I'm missing it, but these are stats for Pokemon, not players, which is what I am interested in.

 

[YoBuddy]

Thank you, and maybe I'm missing it, but these are stats for Pokemon, not players, which is what I am interested in.

There were 194K DOU battles in April, 240K battles in March and 248K battles in February, 245K in Janurary and 275K in December, according to https://www.smogon.com/stats/. The Dynamax ban occurred early in April, so there was some overlap between pre and post ban usage.

 

[Commander Beta]

Does anyone know when there will be dobles tournaments or Tours? I missed out on the Premiere League and I was wondering when I'd be able to compete, outside of the regular daily tournaments that is.

 

[playing_nice]

The main Doubles tournaments are listed in this post: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/2020-doubles-circuit.3657731/
Unfortunately you just missed the beginning of the Spring Seasonal, but there will be several more this year.
You can keep an eye on this subforum: https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/smogon-metagames-circuits.474/ for signups etc for most of these. There are other events/tournaments that some of the more experienced and active folks would know about, but I think these are the main ones.

 

[Platinum God n1n1]

I think Kyurem Black should be suspected. It was banned during the dynamx era and I would like to see how it fairs during a proper suspect.
Would it be OP or a slightly better Kyurem-regular?

tough to say since it s move pool is what really makes the difference, its bulk and power is very similar. Its worth testing out in practice rather than theory imo

 

[Fran]

free beat up

 

[Bless]

Free marsh

 

[GRAND EMPRESS]

I think Kyurem Black should be suspected. It was banned during the dynamx era and I would like to see how it fairs during a proper suspect.
Would it be OP or a slightly better Kyurem-regular?

tough to say since it s move pool is what really makes the difference, its bulk and power is very similar. Its worth testing out in practice rather than theory imo

Free marsh

I feel like both of these mons deserve a proper suspect test now that Dynamax is a thing of the past. Their immediate power and kit may still be a little crazy, but it’s not like we haven’t dealt with power like this before. And I honestly feel Dynamax is what made these threats entirely unbearable in the beginning.
Regular Kyurem and Black Kyurem power-wise and bulkwise aren’t all that different from one another, and Marshy would be nice in order to punish the insane amount of setup spam (*cough* Dragapult & Melmetal) I’ve seen plaguing the meta

Or we could be real men and make a Dynamax-specific banlist like Uber did

 

[Ezrael]

The current metagame kinda sucks. I say this as someone who doesn't really complain that much about pokemon--I liked the dynamax meta, I liked the post-home dynamax meta, and I liked this meta for a bit. However, it sucks, and all the SS players I talk to also don't like it.
However, the meta will end naturally in a month, so there is not a sufficient incentive to fix the problems the meta has by suspect tests. This is because suspect tests take a long time, and are difficult to reverse--any suspect would be done about a week before the expansion drops, which seems like a waste of time to me. There seem like two possible alternatives to me.
First: we could just wait out the month. This is not an unreasonable argument, and one I have made to others. However, I think the meta right now is toxic enough that action ought be taken.
Second: A few temporary quickbans. Quickbans should be somewhat easy to undo, especially if we understand that they are temporary in the first place. We ban a few mons until the expansion drops, and then drop them back into the meta. That should give us the power to fix some of the toxic conditions ruling the meta while still giving us flexibility around those decisions in the new metagame.
I propose that the council temporarily quickban Venusaur and Milotic. I think a not insignificant fraction of the problems this metagame has arises from the existence of sleep and the overall lack of counterplay (without making your team bad). I think Milotic is not much of a problem now, but would be if Venusaur was banned. I think we ban these mons until the expansion drops and everyone gets to have a bunch more fun playing pokemon that doesn't revolve around sleep rolls. There won't be too much community backlash because this exertion of power is, by definition, temporary.

The counterargument would be to just wait a month. The problem I have with this is that we are playing DPL now. DPL is a tournament that I am having a hard time enjoying as much as I would like due to the state of the SS meta. I hope that we have a vigorous (and quick) debate on this and that the council takes action

 

[ABR]

Okay not to be that singles player getting into doubles tiering arguments but I think if sleepers are a consistent issue (grav sleep clause, current milo venu) then MAYBE the singles sleep clause could be adopted here. Is that at all an option?

 

[Ezrael]

Okay not to be that singles player getting into doubles tiering arguments but I think if sleepers are a consistent issue (grav sleep clause, current milo venu) then MAYBE the singles sleep clause could be adopted here.

IMO.

I do not think full-blown sleep clause is a good idea or necessary in DOU. However, I would not be opposed to temporary sleep clause as opposed to temp-banning milo and venusaur.

 

[Nails]

Sleep in this format is completely toxic. The available counterplay is limited both and distribution and power (there aren't many counters and they suck) and the games involving Venusaur and Milotic feel terrible to play for both sides. I think that the format has fundamental issues that won't be resolved by banning the two most cancerous pokemon, but I do think that it makes the format less bad than it is right now. And the format right now needs something done. Sleep clause would be fine too, if it could be implemented quickly and temporarily.

 

[Bughouse]

free tapu fini/koko

 

[Stratos]

1) Fuck sleep clause. Sleep clause is an abomination from a policy perspective and I would rather ban sleep entirely in any meta where sleep is broken (i.e. BW DOU) because it should not exist.

2) I do not think sleep is broken in the current meta. Even if sleep clause were on my table, I would not think sleep is broken enough to reinstate that either. The biggest problem with the meta right now is that it is maybe the smallest metagame we have ever had. Nothing below tier 3 can win; this might be more centralized than the THALK era of XY. However I think this is much more the fault of Melmetal and sand core than sleep. I won't say sleep has nothing to do with it, I just don't think it's the prime suspect.

Even with this problem though I don't think it's urgent. There's like only three good teams (that each have minor variations), but none of the matchups between them are cancerous, so it's fine. Building is not highly rewarded right now but we are only playing this meta a few more weeks, so as long as I don't hate every game I play (I don't, they're fun) then I think we should just gut it out. The worst thing I can say about sleep is that sometimes games swing on sleep roll luck? but that isn't often, we certainly are not even approaching Gengar ties levels of coinflip meta.

3) All this being said, I do agree with the basic principle that any metagame-specific (basically i.e. not dynamax) bans should be reevaluated in a council vote (or just immediately freed) once Crown Tundra comes out. I just don't think anything is broken enough to be banworthy without a suspect atm.

 

[MajorBowman]

On a personal note I agree with Stratos, I find this meta really fun and even though sleep itself is kinda stupid I don't find the users of sleep moves to be problematic otherwise. I would much rather go for something like sleep clause (which has been discussed, albeit not extensively, by the council) instead of banning Venusaur and Milotic, but that would most definitely be in the form of a test and not a council vote.

On a council/TL note we are absolutely not quickbanning anything for a month. It's not worth it for a problem that may or may not even exist. Once Isle of Armor is released next month we might start reevaluating some of the current bans like Stratos suggested, but that has also only been quickly discussed by council and there are no firm plans yet.