★ np: SS UU Stage 4: Heads Will Roll (Haxorus banned; Drizzle banned too, see post #57)

[Hogg]

​

That's right, folks, it's suspect time yet again, and in an ironic role reversal this time it's Haxorus on the chopping block.

Haxorus has been on the radar for almost the entirety of UU. With an excellent Speed tier, a fantastic ability in Mold Breaker and access to new moves in First Impression and Close Combat, this monster has proven nearly uncounterable. There is very little in the tier that does not fold to Choice Band Outrage, and those few things that do are rarely able to switch into a Mold Breaker Earthquake - in fact, outside of the rare Whimsicott, Mold Breaker EQ + Outrage is a combination unresisted by anything in the tier. Its Dragon Dance set is equally problematic, trading immediate breaking power for the ability to turn games around almost instantly. While it was previously kept in check by Mamoswine, since the pig's departure Haxorus has cemented itself as the single biggest threat in UU.

However, as is often the case with powerful breakers, Haxorus does have areas where it suffers. It offers little to no defensive utility, making it difficult to fit onto teams, and DD sets often require support in order to reliably set up. With Sylveon in the tier, they also can no longer afford to drop Poison Jab in favor of Protect, which opens them up to being revenged by strong First Impression users. CB sets are more easily splashable, but they are forced into a prediction game against the fairly common defensive core of a Fairy type plus Noivern, and getting one turn wrong can spell disaster for the Executioner.

So, we will be opening things up to a suspect test to decide if Haxorus should remain in the tier. For this suspect, we will be doing something a little different and borrowing Little Cup's method: the voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UUH4 (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UUH4 Hogg to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Sunday, May 31 at 8:59 PM GMT -4 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. Happy laddering!

Current UU Council

Accelgor
Adaam
Amane Misa
CBU
Donphantastic
Freeroamer
Hogg
Indigo Plateau
Moutemoute
TDK
TonyFlygon
vivalospride
yeezyknows

 

[hs]

-hs

 

[Eve]

just use scarf flygon on every team like me where's the issue


ok so in all seriousness, I don't think DD Haxorus alone is banworthy. There are several Pokemon that can run the correct item or spread to take a single hit, such as Sylveon and Cobalion, there's Scarfers like Flygon and Inteleon, First Impression forces it to sacrifice coverage that it needs for the demon fox, and there's still other priority that can be used to pick it off from common mons (plus Banded Sneasel is underrated). I've never struggled to keep Haxorus in check, unless it manages to cause havoc from behind screens which are another beast entirely.

Probably a hot take but the set I'm always much more afraid of is Banded. Haxorus already has a very good Speed tier, and being immediately afforded the effective power of a Dragon Dance without having to sacrifice moveslots to work gives it so much freedom and pressure. You have a mon that lives a +1 hit from Haxorus? That's fine, it can switch out and do exactly the same thing again later. It can afford to bring Outrage sometimes, which is as strong as a +1 Dragon Claw even without the Choice Band (it does a lot of dmg). It also gains access to First Impression, and I'm not sure I need to explain how good that move is. tldr Banded Haxorus doesn't have safe switchins, and it's very good at forcing a lot of things out. While it struggles to get on the field safely on its own, UU has no lack of great pivots to get it in on targets it can pummel.

Is it broken though? Not sure. It doesn't get many switch-in opportunities, but to be honest, neither did Mamoswine. It can barely miss OHKOs sometimes, but it'll still leave a dent and most neutral hits won't OHKO it. It gets revenge killed by other Dragons, and defensive mons depending on what it locks into, but so does every other wallbreaker. Leaning towards ban rn but hopefully (my attempt at) getting reqs will solidify my opinion.
Good luck to everyone else laddering :) can't wait for good players to tear this apart

 

[Lily]

I have achieved requirements in way too many games bc I suck and lost to so many Inteleons and I don't wanna admit it.

Now, for my thoughts on Haxorus. Just gonna keep this short since I don't think anyone really needs to be convinced.


Ever since this tier's inception, Haxorus has been a phenomenal wallbreaker. I won't parrot things myself and others have said - instead, I want to talk about its set versatility and why I think that's the major issue with it.
I used this team for the majority of my run. My Haxorus counterplay on this team is genuinely very good, with every Pokemon bar Sylveon being able to tank a hit from it and deal a lot back (and noivern ig but we outspeed) so it's not as much of an issue... in theory. The main issue was how I couldn't scout it and deal with it accordingly without potentially losing something first.
On something like a screens HO, it was obviously DD, so that was fine. But DD Hax isn't restricted to those. There were many games where it was on a regular BO, and I had to guess whether it would click Dragon Claw, Earthquake or Dragon Dance. There was really no way for me to know, either, so if I didn't get that guess right, it was VERY difficult. Vileplume was a good initial pivot into any set but it's prone to taking damage earlier in games anyway, thanks to checking things like Rotom and Cobalion, both of which happen to be great partners for Haxorus. I think the sheer, ridiculous amount of options Haxorus has is what pushes it over the edge for me. So with that in mind, I plan to vote ban.

 

[DERPGengar10]

Ban.
I don't play UU that much, but from what I have played, Haxorus is just a menace. With either a band or a scarf, there's no one pokemon that can totally wall it (because Corviknight is OU) and that simply shouldn't be happening. It just hits so hard with such great speed, and unlike other wallbreakers out there that have the same traits, Haxorus resists a good amount of strong attackers in UU like Darmanitan's fire, Mantine's water and Rotom's electricity. Sure, there are things like Gardevoir, Weezing and Sylveon that could (in theory) stop Haxorus, but no. Gardevoir? Poison jab + outspeed. Weezing? Mold Breaker + Earthquake. Sylveon? Poison jab. See what I mean? There's just nothing UU can do to stop Hazorus' rampage. Again, ban.

P.S.
yes there are things like noivern and flygon. But, OU had Seismitoad and Pex, but look what happened to Darm and Melmetal.

 

[DnB]

haxorus is super unhealthy for the tier, you could say the same thing for pangoro, but haxorus has the speed to aggressively pivot around and still being faster then most things.
CB is the best set for standard balance/offense teams, DD is great in HO setup spam teams. mold breaker + EQ is just a broken combination and requires you to run phys def sylveon + steel + grass on every team if you want to be save, and even then, 1 wrong prediction means death. the meta wont change that much if haxorus is gone, but the strong hitting attackers will be either glass canons like inteleon or slow stuff like pangoro and sirfetchd, haxorus is in the middle of both, bulky enough to always take 1 hit and still being able to outspeed 2/3 of the meta

 

[yeezyknows]

haxorus is broken.

there are two central aspects regarding haxorus' impact on the metagame that make the mon broken: its lack of direct defensive counterplay and the dearth of mons that can safely revenge kill it.

there are currently two viable haxorus sets at the moment: choice band and dragon dance. by itself, i don't feel that choice band is broken. it's a great breaker, but once it has been scouted, it's not inordinately hard to play around, albeit difficult. however, i do feel that DD is broken by itself, and that the existence of CB further exacerbates haxorus' problematic impact on the metagame, as it creates an unhealthy gamestate of not knowing which set you're facing from the get-go. this naturally forces you into a state of unhealthy trade-offs immediately after haxorus is sent in.

with regard to direct defensive counterplay, there simply aren't any fully reliable options in the tier. legitimately nothing outside of avalugg can take +1 LO hits. bold sylveon can't take any chip if it doesn't want to lose to LO poison jab. escavalier can't take any chip if it doesn't want to lose to orb earthquake, and the same can be said for weezing and doublade. cobalion needs to be shuca berry to eat +1 orb eq. after this, there's no real counterplay left. everything just drops to boosted coverage moves or STAB coverage. nothing is a consistent defensive option.

with regard to mons that can safely revenge kill haxorus, you have like two truly viable options: scarf flygon and scarf inteleon, with the latter's viability being fringe at best. at this point i honestly don't consider any scarfer below haxorus' speed tier to be viable, as you lose out on revenge killing indisputably the best setup mon in the tier. this leaves you with passive and frail scarfers like heliolisk and espeon as some of your primary options for speed control, two mons that don't even OHKO haxorus back. this is inherently uncompetitive, warping the metagame around a single mon, another hallmark of a broken pokemon.

i think one of the most jarring examples of how much haxorus has warped the metagame was Adaam's SS match versus lax in uupl, wherein he used balloon weezing-g as a means of better checking haxorus. it honestly seems ridiculous that a mon with levitate would need to use such a niche item, specifically for the presence of one single mon.

you can point to haxorus' relative frailty or the idea that it's worse off in practice because it'll typically need to take chip to get to +1, but i largely disagree with both of these arguments. while its defenses arent amazing, theyre passable, and it'll typically live most neutral hits from the majority of mons in the process of getting to +1 in speed and attack. with regard to the 'worse off in pratice argument,' i would honestly argue the opposite. haxorus' counterplay doesn't exist in a vacuum, particularly in the cases of mons such as doublade, weezing, and sylveon, three means of haxorus counterplay whose job is to sponge hits or take knock offs. over the course of a game, they will take chip, making it far easier for haxorus to sweep.

continuing, we have the presence of screens. screens almost entirely mitigate both of haxorus' perceived flaws in relative frailty and full-health mons serving as counterplay. behind screens, haxorus is incredibly bulky, and the natural momentum and breaking power held by screens teams means that its counterplay will be chipped by other mons. whether or not you can consider this a byproduct of screens being broken themselves is your prerogative, but i can guarantee that their popularity is almost entirely predicated on the viability of haxorus.

in sum, haxorus' lack of consistent defensive counterplay, coupled with a true dearth of revenge killing options, ultimately serves to make the mon broken, particularly in conjunction with screens offenses.

ban

 

[Socrates1O1]

When this suspect test was announced I was pretty determined to get reqs, because I wanted Haxorus out of this tier. Any new team that I made which had a fun or creative concept got obliterated by either Choice band or Dragon Dance Haxorus. Therefore, I was always forced to run either Golisopod or Scarfed Flygon as a revenge killer Defensive Sylveon which gets guarenteed knocked out by a +1 Life Orb poison Jab after rocks:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 351-413 (89 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 351-413 (89 - 104.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Put differently, I feel Haxorus puts a huge strain on teambuilding in general which is actively damaging for creative teambuilding processes. The current metagame is also quite slow apart from a few exceptions, such as Noivern and Cobalion, allowing the choice band set to outspeed the majority of the metagame, while also having access to a great priority move in First Impression.

Even though the Mold Breaker ability lets Haxorus hit all levitating mons, which makes Bronzong and Rhyperior no longer a check to it, I now feel like it is a necessary mon that keeps this metagame healthier. Haxorus provides any player a possibility to break through stall teams, disregarding that ONE air balloon Galarian Weezing pif brought to a UUPL game. My fear is that this tier will become an absolute stall-fest the moment Haxorus gets banned.

Conclusion: even though Haxorus puts an immediate strain on teambuilding and actual gameplay, as one can never allow it to get up a DD which forces you to stay in and hit it as hard as you can, I do feel like Haxorus is a necessary piece to the current metagame - preventing it from becoming an absolute stall-fest. Therefore, when the votes can come in, I will vote NO BAN.

p.s. proof of reqs in the attachment.

 

[sparrow]

Hello,

Haxorus needs to go, there's not much more to add to the conversation that hasn't already been said. I'll do my best to summarise the salient points to the argument.

Nothing switches into it safely, the most common walls of the tier all die to Haxorus. Choice Band Haxorus doesn't need to pick and choose its counters thanks to its coverage. Even if you manage to predict incorrectly, I would argue that most of its' sturdier switch-ins that manage to come in are easy to take advantage of. I think Banded Haxorus with Close Combat > Poison Jab is its best set. For example,
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, forces recovery. Furthermore, CC and EQ are spammable options that help enable Haxorus to break teams early/mid game.

Haxorus is easy to use as a Pokemon. It not only forces your opponent to predict correctly or lose a 'mon, but also doesn't really mind if its user incorrectly chooses the wrong move. For example, Choice Band Poison Jab does >50% to Noivern. It's not difficult to support through either volturn or screens, and its resistances to common types mean it can come in quite often and is usually better off in the situation that both you and your opponent decide to double (meaning its a safe go to switch). In the 1v1 match up Haxorus has a favourable match up versus a lot of the meta, usually boiling down to whether the opposing Pokemon is faster and can OHKO.

Faster>97

Team

https://pokepast.es/54b66c82ae155af1

I will be voting BAN, and look forward to how UU will develop this gen.

 

[Jade]

Hello everyone! I recently got reqs (this system is MUCH easier than the Mamoswine suspect and I think it should stay for the future btw ) so I have absolutely nothing else to do but write this post.

I would like to just give a quick opinion on my stance for this vote. Lilburr and yeezyknows pretty much summed up the points about Haxorus for the ban side. We all know what it does at this point, it Choice Band Earthquakes your team, it Dragon Dances on your team, etc etc. To further emphasize this point, I'm going to provide a list of mons that can check Haxorus on paper, but in practice, can either be easily circumvented or just outright lose. These will be divided into two sections: Speed Control / Priority and mons that can take a hit. Positives will be in green while negatives will be in red. Also explanations in hide boxes because I doubt you'll want to read this entire thing.

Speed Control / Priority

Flygon

Flygon is probably the most secure check on here, as it always OHKOs Haxorus assuming its taken Rocks + Life Orb recoil: 252 Atk Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Haxorus: 236-282 (80.5 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. It also has other uses besides just checking Haxorus well, though its main use comes from Haxorus in the first place. However, this is where the general positives for Flygon end. Fitting a resist to Haxorus's Earthquake on Flygon teams is easier said than done, given that Noivern + Flygon generally isn't something you see (and besides, you just stack mons weak to Dragon Claw by doing that). Even something like Celebi has to make the right prediction - will Haxorus click Earthquake, or will it click Dragon Claw? Yes, Flygon + Ground resist + Steel can generally deal with Haxorus, but a well-played one can definitely shred this core if it predicts correctly.

First Impression Users

These are all lumped together since they all rely on one thing to revenge Haxorus: First Impression. Obviously more and more people are dropping Protect on Haxorus in favor of Poison Jab due to Sylveon's drop. All of these Pokemon do a minimum of about 60% to Haxorus, which does seem like a lot. The downsides come when assuming that Haxorus has not taken chip damage prior to setting up a Dragon Dance, it can still completely ravage teams, even at 20%. The latter two mons also aren't very easy to fit on teams generally, though I've found myself using Golisopod a fair bunch recently, as having a Water-type + Priority + Ground resist in one slot is immensely useful in this metagame, especially with more and more things dropping Protect. Nonetheless, these arent exactly reliable answers on their own unless paired with a secondary Impression user. This also isn't even factoring in if Reflect is up when Haxorus sets up, which is more common than not.

Inteleon (Scarf)

This was originally going to be grouped with Flygon but I feel like it deserves to be on its own for one simple reason: Choice Scarf Inteleon wouldn't be a set without Haxorus. While it does reliably revenge kill Haxorus, that's about where the positives for this mon that I can say here end. There's simply not much reason to use this set at all besides revenge killing Dragon Dance Haxorus over a different form of speed control or Specs Inteleon. The fact that Scarf Inteleon is even a thing speaks about how constraining Haxorus is on the metagame.

Whimsicott

Not gonna say much on this one because I think its pretty mediocre besides being infuriating for Hyper Offense to deal with. Whimsicott resists everything at Haxorus' disposal bar Poison Jab and can Encore it into Dragon Dance, Earthquake, or Dragon Claw. Unfortunately it doesn't exactly have the splashability to consistently be a good Haxorus check, plus as mentioned earlier its not that good in this metagame besides specific teams where its necessary for Haxorus and other threats.

Mons that can take a hit and either OHKO or do major damage back

Escavalier

The premier Haxorus check and the first thing that comes to mind when general Haxorus switch-ins (haha they don't exist anyway) With 252 HP / 116 Def it lives two Choice Band Earthquakes from Haxorus, making it a decent answer when combined with a Fairy-type and Noivern, at least on paper. The same issue applies to these cores with everything else: a well-played Haxorus or even just a Dragon Dance Haxorus with partners that lure in Escavalier to chip it can easily dismantle these cores. As someone who avidly spams these types of Escavalier + Sylveon + Noivern teams that are on paper meant to take on Haxorus, in practice it doesn't work as well as it seems on paper.

Cobalion

Air Balloon Cobalion is a set I've been enjoying using, and not just to pivot into Haxorus easier in combination with a Fairy-type like Sylveon. The crucial one-time Ground-type immunity, unlike Shuca Berry, is very useful in a plethora of situations. Obviously it cannot OHKO Haxorus unless said mon gets chipped, and it has to play around its Balloon being popped, but I still feel like Air Balloon Cobalion is one of our best Haxorus checks overrall, and in conjunction with a Noivern or Sylveon, can actually force Haxorus to predict a fair amount.

Vileplume

Vileplume is a mon I only know because Lily hypes it up at every opportunity. While it is a major nuisance to Haxorus, being able to consistently pivot into it as long as Vileplume isn't chipped, Strength Sap is rather unreliable recovery while Leech Seed can be blocked by a potential Celebi or Roserade partner. Also, using Vileplume means you are not using the vastly superior Roserade. If this seems short that's because it is, there's not much to say here.

This is where the list ends, for now at least. I may edit some in if anyone can find some others but I am thoroughly convinced that the top two are our best two checks atm, and even they can be situational (Escavalier has to not take any chip throughout the entire match, while Cobalion has to not get its Air Balloon popped. I hope you enjoyed reading this post (if you did) as much as I enjoyed writing it. In short, please ban Haxorus. Its overly constricting and unhealthy for the metagame and the tier would be much better without it.

 

[Freeroamer]

When this suspect test was announced I was pretty determined to get reqs, because I wanted Haxorus out of this tier. Any new team that I made which had a fun or creative concept got obliterated by either Choice band or Dragon Dance Haxorus. Therefore, I was always forced to run either Golisopod or Scarfed Flygon as a revenge killer Defensive Sylveon which gets guarenteed knocked out by a +1 Life Orb poison Jab after rocks:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 351-413 (89 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 351-413 (89 - 104.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Put differently, I feel Haxorus puts a huge strain on teambuilding in general which is actively damaging for creative teambuilding processes. The current metagame is also quite slow apart from a few exceptions, such as Noivern and Cobalion, allowing the choice band set to outspeed the majority of the metagame, while also having access to a great priority move in First Impression.

Even though the Mold Breaker ability lets Haxorus hit all levitating mons, which makes Bronzong and Rhyperior no longer a check to it, I now feel like it is a necessary mon that keeps this metagame healthier. Haxorus provides any player a possibility to break through stall teams, disregarding that ONE air balloon Galarian Weezing pif brought to a UUPL game. My fear is that this tier will become an absolute stall-fest the moment Haxorus gets banned.

Conclusion: even though Haxorus puts an immediate strain on teambuilding and actual gameplay, as one can never allow it to get up a DD which forces you to stay in and hit it as hard as you can, I do feel like Haxorus is a necessary piece to the current metagame - preventing it from becoming an absolute stall-fest. Therefore, when the votes can come in, I will vote NO BAN.

p.s. proof of reqs in the attachment.

This is a sentiment that was around a bit last gen and seems to be creeping back in this gen so I’ll give my thoughts on it here. I personally don’t think it’s wise to allow your fears about what the next metagame could be like to determine how you vote when you seem to clearly think as an individual pokemon that Haxorus is broken. If you were undecided about whether it’s broken or not and thinking about the next metagame was what swayed your vote then that’s another thing entirely in my opinion, but that doesn’t really seem to be the case here. Ultimately it’s your vote at the end of the day so do whatever you feel is right but I personally couldn’t advocate for keeping a Pokemon that I’m sure is broken because of something that might happen. I agree that Haxorus is one of the hardest things to check off for a bulkier squad in SS UU but tiering changes are rarely so linear in how they affect the metagame, just as stall has one less thing to be concerned with, balance/bulky offense now have more freedom to allocate their resources (not using a base 100+ scarfer or FI every time) which can allow them to better their chances in the stall matchup. Long story short it ends up all getting very hypothetical, which I just don’t think is a sound way to make tiering decisions.

I don’t think I need to give too many thoughts on Haxorus as there have been good posts on it already in this thread and my thoughts haven’t really changed from my posts in the old thread here and here.

 

[Stareal]

ban it.

 

[Moutemoute]

Hey there, don't forget this thread isn't the one to post your reqs. If you want to do it, feel free but post as well some concrete thoughts you have on Haxorus in UU

 

[Gadget]

Personal thoughts from someone who doesn't feel like putting in the effort for reqs. This meta is warped around haxorus to the point where you are either using it on some form of HO/screens build, or you have a balance team. I believe the fact you need to account for both the dd set and the band set is what pushes it from tier staple to busted, both sets on there own are good, but together it creates a "magerna effect" where if you guess the set wrong you often loose a mon, if not the game.
because of this teams are built around abusing or checking haxorus, and as such has made this tier extremely stale, creating very homogenous teams.


ditto i feel is a bit of an underutilized check, as it guarentee revenges haxorus, regardelss of set. but ditto has little else going for it, so take that as you will.

 

[Hogg]

Just a reminder to all that the usual standards for posting in an NP thread apply. Please try to avoid one-liners and reserve your posts for ones that add context or contribute to the discussion re: Haxorus and the general metagame.

 

[Hogg]

View attachment 248055

View attachment 247741ban it.

Hey there, don't forget this thread isn't the one to post your reqs. If you want to do it, feel free but post as well some concrete thoughts you have on Haxorus in UU

Since so many folks have already gotten reqs, I've gone ahead and put the voting identification thread early. Please post your proof of reqs here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-uu-stage-4-voting-identification-thread.3664776/

 

[Joefrostbite5322]

This mon has been on uu for its eternity. To give people an idea on how much this thing is dangerous. First off it got access to two god tier moves. Close combat and first impression. Cobalion likes to run shuca berry. So haxorus can use close combat against it, Also galarian weezing can't check it if it has mold breaker(Which it will always have since unerve and rivally suck.) Choice band is stupidly good. Lemme go through a 411. A jolly banded haxorus has a attack total of 558. that is basically two dragon dances and one swords dance. Secondly the only mon that could check it(Mamoswine) is banned. However i still think mamoswine should have been banned. But ever since mamoswine left haxorus has had a field day. Its coverage is nothing to laugh at either. Close combat, poison jab and earthquake not only do so much damage but they are so spammable. However what truly makes haxorus a menace is this. Unless you are a fairy type you are not gonna tank a choice banded outrage. But choice band isn't its only set. Choice scarf is also viable thanks to its 97 base speed. and in a tier where the fastest mon is frail as hell and can be hindered to hazards(Ribombee) its not gonna end well. Even its checks and counters can't switch in safely. You switch in your sylveon and think you are fine but it uses poison jab. You switch your cobalion in and think you are fine but it uses earthquake/close combat. Do you see the problem here? Mons like flygon and intelion can't properly check it unless it used outrage. Riddle me this. You have a few checks and counters. But they are mediocre pokemon. If they die(Which isn't hard) your team is done for. Even defensive golliaths like milotic and doublade have to be very careful when dealing with this thing.
And if i think if it is ban worthy or not?
It is now. Thanks to dexit the checks to haxorus are not only gone but the old mons are either banned or garbage. Originally it had its flaws but since this gen was basically a close combat bargin sale. Its time for the uu veteran to be banned. Kinda sad since haxorus had been in uu for 8 whole years.
However that is what happens when a pokemon gets out of hand. Now. Time to bet on whether coballion or darmanitan will get banned.
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 220 Def Milotic: 306-360 (77.6 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (306, 309, 312, 316, 319, 324, 327, 330, 334, 337, 342, 345, 348, 352, 355, 360)

252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 255-300 (90.4 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 457-538 (162 - 190.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And those are only calcs without rocks. Now lets get into rocks calcs.

252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 220 Def Milotic: 306-360 (77.6 - 91.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Weezing-Galar: 236-278 (70.6 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 172-203 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Incineroar: 348-410 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 255-300 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Moutemoute]

Aight since I finally got those damn reqs I guess it's time to give my two cents on Haxorus.
By the way, I've been using a pretty straightforward build with Bronzong/Sylveon/Noivern/Incineroar + 2 fillers. Since there is almost one week left before the end of the suspect, feel free to use this team which did 30-2 on the suspect to ladder a bit or to get your own reqs..

export

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Protect
- Toxic
- Psychic

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
- Hyper Voice

Noivern @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 160 HP / 20 Def / 76 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower

Golisopod @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Leech Life
- Liquidation
- Knock Off

Haxorus @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- First Impression
- Poison Jab

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

I firmly believe Haxorus has an obnoxious impact on the tier and I think it restrains the teambuilding by forcing people to run multiple check to it. The main issue I have with this Pokemon is that you just can't lost momentum vs it because it can punish you super hardly otherwise. This leads to dumb situations when you basically have to sac a Pokemon in order to check what is the set of Haxorus (basically Band or DD). Haxorus isn't the kind of Sweeper where you can go on a Pokemon to check what its set is because if you let it DD just one time, it's able to shred almost anything after thanks to its Dragon STAB + Earthquake. Even worst, Poison Jab is able to catch Fairy-types such as Sylveon (or Whimsicott) which can't handle it if it's not full health for Sylveon (and if Haxorus has a LO then you're fucked even without Stealth Rock since +1 Adamant LO Poison Jab has 87.5% to OHKO max/max Sylveon). On the other hand, if you still don't know the set of Haxorus you can just lose a Pokemon vs Choice Band which is able to adapt its moveset to what it wants to cover (Close Combat to bypass Umbreon or Shuca Berry Cobalion, Poison Jab to nuke Fairies or Outrage to just 2HKO almost any non-Fairy Pokemon). I feel like Haxorus forces way too much 50/50 which are almost everytime in favor of the Haxorus player.

I'd like to show you this example : replay

In this replay I'm playing a Screen HO, an archetype where Haxorus is insanely good since it's able to setup on the majority of the tier.
Turn 4 and 5, I was able to set my Screens with Xatu and then on Turn 6, to bring Haxorus under Screens vs Golisopod. My opponent was in a terrible spot because it can't let Haxorus DD because it would otherwise crushs its team so he had to make an agressive double on Whimsicott to force my Haxorus to DD again with Encore. Unfortunately, this play was "obvious" (but because he had to do it in order to not lose) so I just have to use Poison Jab on the excepted Whimsicott. Then Haxorus was able to weaken the opponent's team even more before being KOed.

I trully feel like this replay highlighs the issue with Haxorus and the fact that when you're facing Haxorus, you're almost every time in a tough spot when you have to make an agressive play or a sac in order to not lose too much momentum / too much Pokemon vs Haxorus. I also hate the fact that DD Haxorus is really hard to revenge kill after a single Dragon Dance because it outspeeds almost any Choice Scarf users after a DD. DD sets can also run Protect instead of Poison Jab in order to not be revenge killed by First Impression users like Golisopod, Choice Band Haxorus or the less common Sirfetch'd.

tl;dr : Haxorus has always been a top threat in Underused but the recent metagame trends made it even better (or worst to face) :

• It puts too much pressure on the teambuilding
• It forces some shitty 50/50 because of its two main sets which don't share the same checks
• Dragon STAB + Mold Breaker Earthquake hit almost anything on the tier
• It hits too hard, it's too fast and a pain to revenge kill if it manages to setup

It's a ban for me.

 

[Gross Sweep]

I have been learning UU these past few weeks, being tutored by the fabulous Estarossa, and through this time I have started to notice some trends for building in the UU tier. With major metagame shifts likely coming in the not so distant future with a Haxorus ban seeming inevitable, and the DLCs approaching I want to highlight one of my favorite building molds for the current metagame. I have always preferred bulky offense since I hate when a team cannot apply pressure, but love the safety net of some semblance of a bulkier core keeping the team together. The team structure I would like to highlight with this post is a cookie cutter bulky offense variant, with Incineroar glue. This formula gives some room for creativity, but makes it really easy for a newer player to start making teams that work decently well in the current metagame. I’m sure anyone who has built for this tier at all, will have several teams that fall into this structure. That being said as someone who has been in general building teams for a while now, sometimes having formulas such as this one pointed out to you in a new tier can really get the ball rolling when it comes to learning a new tier effectively. With that in mind I hope this post manages to help somebody get into building SS UU as it really is an interesting tier.

The first slot we have is a Stealth Rock user. Even in a metagame where Heavy Duty Boots seems to be everywhere I think teams still really benefit from having rocks, especially when all these teams will be making use of Incineroar who has STAB Knock Off to help with that. UU also benefits from having several viable Stealth Rock users who carry their weight outside of just setting up Stealth Rock such as Rhyperior, Cobalion, and Copperajah meaning you’re not stuck with something that repeatedly only gets up rocks and maybe tanks a hit or two before getting a bit of chip damage and dying. All of these have some benefits that I’ll go over in some detail down below. Before that though I want to make it clear that while I am covering this slot first I usually do not choose my rocker first. The Pokemon in this slot usually provides support and is not a true focal point of the team, meaning it is really dependent on what you choose with some of the other slots on your team. I’ll go over some of my favorite rockers in the tier currently, and what scenarios it makes sense to choose them in.

Rhyperior is a very solid rocker in the current metagame. It is a force offensively and provides a Ground typing for the team, being one of the best Toxtricity switch ins in the tier. The tier as a whole is really lacking when it comes to Ground types, so that helps Rhyperior stick out. Rhyperior also helps soft check a lot of potent mons in the metagame such as Sylveon and Darmanitan, which provides a lot of value. Honestly, as of late, I have found myself choosing Rhyperior as my rocker when I start a team, and then potentially diverging from that choice if the team needs that decision to be made. Overall an extremely solid mon, and is often a very safe pick as it's low on drawbacks in general.

Gigalith has definitely declined a good bit since the Venusaur ban, but it still has some use. Thanks to Sand Gigalith is a decent switch in to some top tier threats like Sylveon and Noivern. Aside from the SpDef boost it’s also worth noting that sand chip really does help, especially in a tier with a good amount of priority, anyway you can wear down the opposition usually pays dividends in the late game. Sun also is not extinct even after the Venusaur ban, so having a way to reset sun is still helpful, even if it’s more niche. If you end up running a team where your steel type is something like SD Cobalion that doesn't enjoy switching into Sylveon Gigalith can be extremely useful and help builders get away with a less than perfect back bone by just being tanky in general.

Cobalion is a solid Stealth Rock use. It provides a lot of offensive presence, and has an exceptional speed tier that helps with the team greatly. I find myself selecting Cobalion a lot when I have teams that otherwise feel a little slow. Compared to a lot of other options that are slower heavy hitters Cobalion really changes the pace and helps apply pressure. Cobalion also has some of the best utility options among rockers in the tier with Volt Switch and Thunder Wave. Forming a VoltTurn core with Incineroar is always a really nice engine to get a team rolling. If you find another slot to input a Ground type and structure your team to deal with Sylveon through other methods Cobalion is a great pick, I think it is one of the top 3 mons in the tier as it usually finds a way to do something positive every game.

Copperajah is a Pokemon that I have grown to be okay with, but am still not completely sold on. That said in a tier with few Steel types that can switch into Sylveon with some consistency Rajah finds its niche in my eyes. Basically If I feel fairy/psychic weak I think of the elephant who fills this slot well. It’s also a very respectable Roserade switch in that gives it the opportunity to set up rocks or get off a big hit, which helps you make progress continuously. Even with Heavy Duty Boots abound in the tier people still love their Spikes, so being able to switch into the best Spike setter in the tier reliably is always helpful. I think Rajah can suffer from 4mss a bit since there are 5 moves I'd really like to have, but if you can manage to find a mix of Iron Head, EQ, Power Whip, Heat Crash, and Stealth Rock that supports your team well then Copperajah can be a great team member.

Will just make a little note here that there are many other rockers that could fill this role, these are just a few that I really enjoy using and feel like contribute to teams consistently.

The second slot I have is a bulky water. On teams like these the defensive support that some of the bulky waters provide cannot be understated. UU has some great defensive water types this gen that all pair really well with our glue Incineroar. Once again I will go over some of the premiere options down below, and explain when you would choose each of these for your team. The type synergy of Incineroar, a bulky water, and usually the rocker really starts to create our defensive core while keeping up pressure since we've yet to go over a really passive mon to this point while covering a lot of defensive options which is just spectacular. Also in a tier with a lack of really bulky grass types fat waters are usually the best water resists in my eyes, and with our glue being a fire type this is very helpful even in a tier without a ton of strong offensive waters. Also Darmanitan is still a massive threat and solely relying on Incineroar as a Fire resist is not a good plan.

Rotom-W is a solid water in the tier that provides Volt Switch, a ground immunity (aside from Haxorus), and provides the option of Defog. It gels with Incineroar really well creating a momentum core, and takes advantage of Intimidate well. Rotom-W is also nice as it beats a lot of the other common fat waters through its Electric type STAB, which can clear a path for Incineroar to apply pressure to the opposition. If you end up with a more offensively inclined Incineroar, Rotom-W is a great choice.

Golisopod is a ground resist, and comes with a variety of options. First Impression is a great form of speed control, Spikes are great and Golisopod has got them, and barring Stone Edge Golisopod provides one of the better Cobalion switch ins in the tier. In a tier where Choice Scarf users aren’t amazing/mandatory I find First Impression incredibly useful in the tier, often times something like Golisopod and Noivern is enough to manage speed control for a team without having to run a Choice Scarf user. Also with Heavy Duty Boots being introduced this generation it is easier to actually switch Golisopod into attacks throughout a match, and if you get comfortable with the mon you can find situations where you actually use emergency exit to your advantage allowing you to keep up momentum or cancel a Volt Switch halting your opponents.

Milotic is definitely the odd one out here, but still finds some usage in this formula. It’s a fat mon with Recover that helps take on some of the special attackers in the tier. The other options provide more in the way of momentum, but when you need some extra bulk Milotic is a really nice choice. I won’t spend a lot of time on Milotic since I rarely use it, but just want to point out that it can be a good pick. Basically if you find your team being worn down a little too fast, and just need some additional help defensively with something that can blanket check a solid proportion of the tier Milotic is your mon. Having a mon that can take pretty much one hit from anything can be extremely useful.

Third slot is our Incineroar. Estarossa has emphasized the importance of having a dark type to deal with the teapot/chandelier in all of our sessions, and Incineroar is the common answer. Other options such as Pangoro exist, but Incineroar is such a splashable utility mon that it often wins out unless I have the desire to use Pangoro from the start of the building process. I often find myself using a bulkier version of Incineroar as it helps teams function well with Knock Off, and momentum from Parting Shot / U-turn. That said SD sets also work well and can help apply some pressure. I often times feel it can stretch Incineroar pretty thin if you rely on it to be a force when it comes to breaking down the opposition, but it can certainly be useful. At the end of the game Incineroar always seems to have done something productive, which is really all you can ask for. It never seems like Incineroar is brought to a game just to be sacked. Even if your opponent has a team with a few solid Incineroar answers the usefulness of Knock Off, Intimidate, and a momentum grabbing move still seemingly finds a way to win out and allow Incineroar to help make progress in the game.

Slots 4 and 5 are my favorite in this shell. This is where the builder gets the chance to choose whatever offensive core they want to utilize. I would strongly recommend picking something with synergy/are relatively viable mons. In terms of simplicity I usually like to go with something that hits hard right away like a Specs Toxtricity, and then something that sets up helping serve as an immediate wincon helping set forth an immediate focal point for a gameplan such as DD Haxorus or Necrozma. Obviously it wont always be the case, but for newer players I have found it extremely helpful to pinpoint something in the builder that has a chance to sweep/clean on a regular basis since it helps simplify the process of forming a decent game plan. I won’t go over all the options that could work here, but find an enjoyable core that works for you and run with it. These two will essentially determine what all your other slots will be. At this point there have been fairly limited options when it came to what mons we’ve had the option to select, but you now have control. Not much to say here since it is the most free. I could give a long list of cores, but I feel that takes away the fun a bit.

This final spot is our most restricted choice, aside from Incineroar. This final slot is usually either Noivern or Flygon. This slot can help with removal if it hasn't been taken care of already, and helps by providing aid with speed control as Noivern is one of the naturally fastest mons in the tier and Flygons in this structure are usually scarfed. Selecting one of these two also guarantees the team a ground immunity, which is very nice to have as building a team and realizing you do not have one is annoying to say the least. Though it’s worth noting that one of the best Earthquakes in the tier currently comes from Haxorus, who can hit Flygon.

The sole S rank mon in the tier is definitely a great pick in this final slot. It has a great speed tier, has a Flying typing that provides a Ground immunity safe from Haxorus, and removal in the form of Defog. It also is a softer Fighting type resist that can help out in a pinch. Honestly I don’t think I need to go over why Noivern is a great pick for any team in the current meta. I usually go with Noivern here whenever I can, but sometimes the role compression Flygon provides can be to much to pass up on.

Flygon is honestly something I only use if I have to, but it’s worth a mention. Whenever I use it I continuously find myself underwhelmed with its damage output as a supposed revenge killer (Dragon Claw his like a wet noodle), but it has some great role compression that is worth using from time to time. Scarf U-turn will always be solid, and Outrage can help in the endgame. Flygon also provides a ground typing which is nice if you do not have one at this point, since while VoltTurn isn’t spectacular right now in terms of options that can use it well it would really suck to get stuck in the Vacuum with mons like Rotom-W, Heliolisk, and Toxtricity in the tier. Also I will note that Flygon benefits a lot from being a scarfer faster than +1 Haxorus, which is a niche that is extremely useful now but may be nonexistent in a week or so.

That is pretty much it when it comes to this team structure. It's overall pretty simple and repetitive, but if you're struggling to make relatively solid teams I would give this a try. To simplify Rocker / Fat Water / Incineroar / 2 Offensive mons / Fast Dragon. Also since I think it would be rude to make this long post without an example, I will provide one for you.


I started out wanting to use Swords Dance Cobalion as I feel it's a strong breaker with a great speed tier. I wasn't exactly sure what I wanted to use as my other breaker, but I knew I wanted to use Rhyperior as my rocker. With this in mind knowing I was removing options like Copperajah and Gigalith from the table, and using a Steel type that didn't love Switching into Sylveon Toxtricity came to mind. It is an incredibly strong breaker that can switch into Hyper Voice fairly well left me feeling comfortable in that match up. At this point I am really struggling against Ground types and feeling a tad bit slow with Toxtricity being one of my two offensive slots, so I went with Golisopod. A Ground resist and priority with First Impression helps with both of those issues. Next is Incineroar who helps check ghosts, forms a VoltTurn core with Toxtricity, and in general just compliments the team really well. The final selection for the team was Noivern who adds some speed, removal, and in general just ties the team together really well as Noivern usually seems to do. The team isn't without issue, but I feel it is a pretty good start. Rotom-W can be annoying, though Roost Noivern can be extremely helpful with this match up. The team also lacks a fairy which I think is not the biggest issue in the world, but their defensive utility will be missed. Also Rhyperior is probably the biggest threat to the team, but thanks to everything on the team being a bit faster thanks to the speed EVs on Rhyperior you can pressure it fairly well.

Anyways that's gonna wrap up this long post. I hope it helps someone who is getting into the tier, as SS UU has really reinvigorated my passion for mons, so making posts like this is really cool for me.

 

[Cynde]

Toxtricity @ Black Sludge
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 92 SpD / 140 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Toxic
- Protect
- Volt Switch

used this set part of the way for laddering for the test. basically turns shit like gigalith / reun into a really easy match up. toxic protect into volt after rocks puts them at like 50%. the additional bulk means you can do better against cobalion, galar weezing, roserade, some noivern. protect is great for racking up chip / scouting vs mons like haxorus or flygon or darm. downside is no sludge wave so you'll need something for sylveon (you still pressure it plenty). get away from that boring shift gear shit and try this, 100% worth it and definitely has a place in this meta. for an example, look at how good its match up would be against the team above, even with rhyperior. ban haxorus.

 

[Fusion Flare]

Toxtricity @ Black Sludge
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 92 SpD / 140 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Toxic
- Protect
- Volt Switch

used this set part of the way for laddering for the test. basically turns shit like gigalith / reun into a really easy match up. toxic protect into volt after rocks puts them at like 50%. the additional bulk means you can do better against cobalion, galar weezing, roserade, some noivern. protect is great for racking up chip / scouting vs mons like haxorus or flygon or darm. downside is no sludge wave so you'll need something for sylveon (you still pressure it plenty). get away from that boring shift gear shit and try this, 100% worth it and definitely has a place in this meta. ban haxorus.

isnt reuniclus immune to toxic cuz of magic guard?

 

[bmacbnasty]

isnt reuniclus immune to toxic cuz of magic guard?

The only Reuniclus set capable of consistently switching into Toxtricity is the Assault Vest set, which runs Regenerator over Magic Guard
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Reuniclus: 146-172 (34.4 - 40.5%)
vs
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 309-365 (72.8 - 86%)

 

[ausma]

So, the past couple of weeks, I've been trying to get reqs, but despite coming unbelievably close several times (literally one game off on one account), a combination of frustrating stall cores and my atrocious internet have caused me to ultimately give it a rest. However, in that time, I've managed to make numerous observations about Haxorus that I hope can assist voters come the day of judgment.

Despite how obvious it seems that Haxorus is too overbearing of a force for the tier, I will not lie when I say that I'm strangely polarized about it. I've spent a good chunk of time both using and battling this thing over the course of the tier's lifespan, and especially over the course of the past couple of weeks. Though, despite how I'm unsure entirely how to think of it, I will talk about what exactly it brings to the table and give a personal consensus from there.

1: Immense power

This one seems fairly straight forward, and is a tried and true assessment of Haxorus's most evident trait. I really don't need to show you the mind-breaking calcs for you to know this thing dismantles the everliving hell out of everything. Access to great coverage options (Earthquake, Poison Jab, Close Combat, etc.) on top of its incredible attack stat allows for it to cover its blind spots with great effectiveness. The most notable thing about this, though, is that things that are supposed to check it, don't. The biggest example of this comes in the form of Sylveon, which folds to +1 Poison Jab at max health with its Specially Defensive set, and folds with a little bit of chip damage with its Physically Defensive set (and is a guaranteed OHKO with LO after rocks).

Though, despite its power, I believe there are two, much greater factors that make Haxorus suspect worthy.

2: Ability to exploit its power

Power means nothing if you don't have the tools to exploit it, and Haxorus is far from without its tools. Access to Mold Breaker lets its Earthquakes dismantle the common Levitate Pokemon of the tier--most notably Weezing-Galar, Bronzong, and Rotom-W, which get ravaged without Levitate to protect them. Mold Breaker also lets it battle Unaware users, which is yet another compliment to the fact it has a surplus of coverage to exploit its power with. Additionally, Haxorus's speed tier is fairly good. It only gets naturally outsped by 5 relevant threats, those being Noivern, Flygon, Inteleon, Cobalion, and Heliolisk. While it especially wishes it could outpace Flygon, still getting a jump on the majority of the tier lets it dismantle the tier with relative ease. On top of this, it was coveted with the dreaded First Impression, which gives it the terrifying ability to revenge kill to great effectiveness regardless of your speed tier (unless your name is Cobalion or Noivern).

3: Set Options

This is the thing that I've found to be the most indicative of Haxorus's current disposition in the tier. Lilburr described this very well with her post, and I agree that this is the biggest issue with Haxorus at its core. Its set versatility is a huge problem, namely because every option that it can run is extremely potent. Choice Band Haxorus gives it immediate power, and is a brutal compliment to the revenge killing potential of First Impression, which can only be soaked through resisted hits or use of Protect. Though, if you expect it and go into your Weezing or Cobalion, Banded Earthquake will break you into flying debris. I believe Banded Haxorus is an absolute terror against any archetype (namely Balance squads) for its revenge killing and breaking potential, and that is very problematic. However, even though it can be played around with use of Protect and SE berries, there is a whole other issue at hand: Dragon Dance.

Its DD sets compromise the issue of most non-Scarfed revenge killers. Though, not only does Haxorus have an egregious amount of setup fodder in the tier due to the menace of its Banded set, but DD frees it of the Choice lock and allows it to freely wallbreak. When you add on the fact that Screens HO gives it an easier time setting up, this set is undoubtedly devastating. I've seen adaptations to First Impression in the form of Protect, but it's very easy to take advantage of it and setup for free if the opponent guesses wrong, and in that lies the biggest problem of Haxorus. If you guess its set wrong or perform incorrectly expecting one set over the other, you will be severely punished. You can lose an important attribute of your defensive core, be greatly worn down, or outright lose your firepower simply for one mistake. Haxorus is super good at picking apart just about anything its user needs it to through exploiting its incredible options, and that has placed a greatly worrisome constrain on actual play.

--

Though, I would like to address one thing about Haxorus in favor of anti-ban: the general lack of teambuilding constriction.

This is a super controversial observation, but when I think about it, I believe this is what made me iffy on Haxorus. Scouting for the sets and punishing them by themselves is not particularly difficult. Many teams in SS UU require speed control and priority, which are arguably Haxorus's biggest issues handling outside of Banded First Impression. When adding onto the fact that Haxorus is prone to being worn down--especially if running LO--picking it off becomes a relatively easy feat when factoring in priority, general speed control, and effective scouting. Running a SE berry or running Protect are relatively easy low-cost scouting methods too--the latter especially for combating First Impression--and immediately puts a great momentum sink upon the Haxorus user when played against correctly. Scarf Heliolisk, Intelon, and Flygon are promising against DD sets and Band without its First Impression primed. While on the defensive end of the spectrum, Milotic and Umbreon (against non-CC variants) can handle it to decent effectiveness, and the latter even has Foul Play to punish setup and normally runs Protect anyway. Escavalier is fairly solid as well. Ultimately, I believe running natural Haxorus checks and scouting methods are very low cost in the teambuilder, and is why I feel teambuilding constriction isn't the problem with it despite its monumental power being a constant factor.

However.

It's the combination of DD and Band being incredibly powerful common sets that makes this observation seldom matter, as the attributes of Haxorus in the tier are problematic within the battles themselves. Even if you do prepare adequately, when in action, it can greatly punish you for guessing its set incorrectly with its wealth of devastating tools that come in its various sets. For instance--your Scarf user can check it, sure, but it's unlikely it will be taking a Banded First Impression, even if healthy. Alternatively, if you expect the First Impression and use Protect, it can DD in front of your face, and you immediately have to pick a sack, or have a more defensive Pokemon uncomfortably weakened. For this reason, it is beyond volatile to play against, and that is the biggest problem behind keeping Haxorus in the tier. No small mistake should ever amount to such a monumental punishment; because, in context, battles involving Haxorus are reduced to whether you can properly scout its set before it's too late, and as such it lacks genuine counters as a result.

If I had my reqs, I would personally vote ban. Though, I will admit this has been the most polarized I've been regarding a suspect.

 

[Bad feeling]

Haxorus pressures UU like none. Adamant CB, Protect DD or LO DD are common and few Pokemon safe handles the behemot. Most of the times to scout Haxorus set you have to risk a K.O which is pretty dumb situation. Anyway isn't the main issue with Haxorus, other threats like SpecSylveon or CBPang do same thing. The issue with Haxorus is he restrains teambuilding a lot.

You need a scarf > 100 BS, you need Escavalier or Avalugg (he's suck since Mamo and Weavile are banned). Most Ice shard users are gone to good reasons or not. Haxorus benefits of theses bans in both way, Avalugg is most of the time a deadweight and the most efficient offensive ways to deal with haxorus are gone.

Scarf > 100 BS able to OHKO haxorus are few. We have Flygon, Noivern and Intelleon. They can't switch on haxorus without fear to be OHKO by a "simple" Outrage/Dragon Claw. .

UU teambuilding trends to be homogenus since Escavalier is the best "answer" to check Haxorus in both defensive and offensive teams.

 

[pokemonisfun]

It's more or less obviously too late to save Haxorus and I don't want to spend my time writing an essay like usual trying to defend it. This is why I'll vote DNB though:

1. While the CB sets have a very spammy move in Mold Breaker Earthquake, it's still prediction reliant most of the time because it's pretty easy to fit in Celebi or Noivern on teams
2. The DD sets can be game breaking because of immense power and speed but to me it's just a top tier sweeper - it has better offensive stats and moves than basically anything but it still has the weaknesses of a standard sweeper (priority, Scarf Flygon/Intelon, bad bulk so it sets up once per match usually)
   1. Something like Venusaur in Sun which I do think is broken just didn't have all those standard weaknesses (well it was not weak to most Scarfers and had enormous initial speed)