Usage stats for June are up! Here are the changes that affect us:
Keldeo moved from OU to UU
Pelipper moved from OU to UU
Help.
Keldeo moved from OU to UU
Pelipper moved from OU to UU
Help.
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★ np: SS UU Stage 4: Heads Will Roll (Haxorus banned; Drizzle banned too, see post #57)
- Thread starter Hogg
- Start date
- Status
Sun: Between Darmanispam and Venusaur, I'm the most problematic weather in UU.
Rain:
Rain:
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Welp time to quickban Drizzle again
EDIT: What's with the Angry react? It was quickbanned the last two gens, wasn't it?
EDIT: What's with the Angry react? It was quickbanned the last two gens, wasn't it?
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Hello yes, Donny P at his job here, dumping some quick thoughts on our new drops and how they'll impact the meta:
: much like sun pre venu ban I truly think Drizzle teams will over run the meta until the inevitable ban of the pelican. It can serve either a defensive/support role of be a terrifying wallbreaker with Rain boosted Weatherballs and Perfectly accurate hurricanes. Its speed tier allows it to either outrun the majority of our current defensive mons or slow-turn out on a good amount of our faster threats, allowing a partner like Keldeo/Ludicolo/Skewda a free turn to unleash an obscenely powerful water type attack. I hope to see it booted from the tier soon
: If/When rain gets the boot I don't see pony being an overbearing threat, but I do see it becoming a premier underused pokemon. Classic sets like SubCM will have issues dealing with Noivern/Mantine/Celebi but any team that doesn't carry these will struggle to not lose. Choice scarf keldeo holds the coveted base 108 speed but unlike cobalion it has the natural power to not need a boost to be effective. Specs with Icy wind+Air slash breaks anything not named Jellicent/Mantine with proper prediction, and Taunt+Toxic should be a cool option to lure and cripple common switch ins including the aforementioned jelli/mantine.
All in all I think keldeo will be a welcome addition to our constantly changing meta and im excited to see how large its impact will be.
: much like sun pre venu ban I truly think Drizzle teams will over run the meta until the inevitable ban of the pelican. It can serve either a defensive/support role of be a terrifying wallbreaker with Rain boosted Weatherballs and Perfectly accurate hurricanes. Its speed tier allows it to either outrun the majority of our current defensive mons or slow-turn out on a good amount of our faster threats, allowing a partner like Keldeo/Ludicolo/Skewda a free turn to unleash an obscenely powerful water type attack. I hope to see it booted from the tier soon : If/When rain gets the boot I don't see pony being an overbearing threat, but I do see it becoming a premier underused pokemon. Classic sets like SubCM will have issues dealing with Noivern/Mantine/Celebi but any team that doesn't carry these will struggle to not lose. Choice scarf keldeo holds the coveted base 108 speed but unlike cobalion it has the natural power to not need a boost to be effective. Specs with Icy wind+Air slash breaks anything not named Jellicent/Mantine with proper prediction, and Taunt+Toxic should be a cool option to lure and cripple common switch ins including the aforementioned jelli/mantine.All in all I think keldeo will be a welcome addition to our constantly changing meta and im excited to see how large its impact will be.
OH MY GOD WHY DID KELDEO AND PELIPPER GET DROPPED AT THE SAME TIME DRACOVISH YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO STOP THIS NOT ALLOW IT
Ok ok, I can't help but find this hilariously timed, especially given how much of an issue Drought brought upon the tier for its sheer, offensive power. After Drought, I feel it'd be redundant to explain what exactly is going on with Drizzle and why it would pose the same problems (Swift Swim abusers like Ludicolo, breakers like Keldeo, etc). Additionally, when you consider that Pelipper is probably one of the best weather setters for its access to U-Turn, and that Rain itself is among the best weather archetypes, I have no doubt that action will likely be taken very quickly on Drizzle, or Pelipper itself due to tiering policy.
Keldeo, though, is something I'm much more unsure about. When it was OU, while it used Choiced sets, SubCM was a set used alongside Primarina's SubCM hugely for its speed tier, raw power, and ability to cleave teams apart in the lategame. However, the difference here is that Keldeo is surrounded by a much different metagame than Primarina was prior to its quickban. Primarina was able to blow past Noivern with Moonblast, but Keldeo is countered without boosts thanks to Infiltrator attacks and Noivern's resistances to its dual STABs. Water/Fighting resists are a lot more common in the tier than Water/Fairy resists were, too, letting people adapt to its strength better overall. What's more, is that it struggles against the bulky Water-types of the tier, which is a pretty big deal in its own right. However, I have no doubt this thing is going to make one hell of a splash. Not only does it have flexibility due to its options in the form of Toxic, Taunt, and CM, but its speed tier, as Cobalion has shown, is incredible in the tier, and as the above poster said, it has the power to back Choice sets. While I could see people making a case to get rid of it, I feel like when (or if) Drizzle/Pelipper is handled, that it can definitely be adapted to.
Though, I would like to raise a bit of an interesting provocation due to Dracovish's ban. I'm unsure if speculation is allowed in the thread, but I will use my OU knowledge to raise something that could happen:
This thing has been shown in SPL to be a potent rocker, and a fantastic replacement for Seismitoad in the post-Dracovish metagame in OU from the few games I've played in the tier so far. This seems strange for me to bring up here, especially now, but if Rhyperior rises, we lose an extremely valuable asset to the tier, and could possibly lead to Toxtricity's breaking power becoming an issue.
Just some thoughts I had regarding the suspect and the tier shifts!
Ok ok, I can't help but find this hilariously timed, especially given how much of an issue Drought brought upon the tier for its sheer, offensive power. After Drought, I feel it'd be redundant to explain what exactly is going on with Drizzle and why it would pose the same problems (Swift Swim abusers like Ludicolo, breakers like Keldeo, etc). Additionally, when you consider that Pelipper is probably one of the best weather setters for its access to U-Turn, and that Rain itself is among the best weather archetypes, I have no doubt that action will likely be taken very quickly on Drizzle, or Pelipper itself due to tiering policy.
Keldeo, though, is something I'm much more unsure about. When it was OU, while it used Choiced sets, SubCM was a set used alongside Primarina's SubCM hugely for its speed tier, raw power, and ability to cleave teams apart in the lategame. However, the difference here is that Keldeo is surrounded by a much different metagame than Primarina was prior to its quickban. Primarina was able to blow past Noivern with Moonblast, but Keldeo is countered without boosts thanks to Infiltrator attacks and Noivern's resistances to its dual STABs. Water/Fighting resists are a lot more common in the tier than Water/Fairy resists were, too, letting people adapt to its strength better overall. What's more, is that it struggles against the bulky Water-types of the tier, which is a pretty big deal in its own right. However, I have no doubt this thing is going to make one hell of a splash. Not only does it have flexibility due to its options in the form of Toxic, Taunt, and CM, but its speed tier, as Cobalion has shown, is incredible in the tier, and as the above poster said, it has the power to back Choice sets. While I could see people making a case to get rid of it, I feel like when (or if) Drizzle/Pelipper is handled, that it can definitely be adapted to.
Though, I would like to raise a bit of an interesting provocation due to Dracovish's ban. I'm unsure if speculation is allowed in the thread, but I will use my OU knowledge to raise something that could happen:
This thing has been shown in SPL to be a potent rocker, and a fantastic replacement for Seismitoad in the post-Dracovish metagame in OU from the few games I've played in the tier so far. This seems strange for me to bring up here, especially now, but if Rhyperior rises, we lose an extremely valuable asset to the tier, and could possibly lead to Toxtricity's breaking power becoming an issue.
Just some thoughts I had regarding the suspect and the tier shifts!
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I'm refraining from making a snap judgement about rain, since we have a unique situation here where Drizzle, Drought and Sand Stream are all relevant. They make each other automatically less reliable, due to that alone. I'm *extremely* interested in how this might play out...
Keldeo needs to go, though.
Keldeo needs to go, though.
I know we're all excited about our new toys, but the voting thread for Haxorus is up!
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-uu-suspect-process-stage-4-haxorus.3665399/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-uu-suspect-process-stage-4-haxorus.3665399/
Tested a bit (not a whole lot but enough to give myself an opinion I think) and I think we're gonna have to ban Drizzle. This'll be short bc I'm tired but wanted to give my thoughts anyway.
Pelipper itself isn't really a problem and tbh, I really hope we can keep it and just ban Drizzle instead. It's a really solid mon in the sense that it checks a unique host of threats like Cobalion, Lucario, Pangoro, Flygon etc. and unlike Mantine it's got U-turn to preserve momentum and Knock Off for a little extra utility. Unfortunately, Drizzle Peli is crazy and enables stuff like Drednaw, Heliolisk, Barraskewda, and new addition Keldeo to go from decent to incredibly overpowering and basically impossible to deal with defensive without something like a Gastrodon. I can't rlly see Drizzle lasting very long in the tier at all; maybe it's just day one panic, but it's probably best that it's suspected.
This thing, on the other hand, is a really good and healthy addition to the tier imo. It provides a decent Incineroar switchin on offense, something that was very much needed, and while it's very strong it's not really THAT crazy unboosted and can't reliably get past quite a few common, sturdy answers. A quick list (probably not exhaustive) of stuff that can defensively deal with a Keldeo spamming its STAB moves:
And when it comes to offensively checking/revenge killing we've got stuff like:
Idt Keldeo's broken or even unhealthy at all. It'll be a solid threat and will most certainly need to be adapted to, but I think it's a net gain for the tier more than anything else. Maybe I'll be wrong and it turns out to be stupid, who knows, but I doubt it'll be banworthy any time in the near future.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Also, ban Haxorus.
Pelipper itself isn't really a problem and tbh, I really hope we can keep it and just ban Drizzle instead. It's a really solid mon in the sense that it checks a unique host of threats like Cobalion, Lucario, Pangoro, Flygon etc. and unlike Mantine it's got U-turn to preserve momentum and Knock Off for a little extra utility. Unfortunately, Drizzle Peli is crazy and enables stuff like Drednaw, Heliolisk, Barraskewda, and new addition Keldeo to go from decent to incredibly overpowering and basically impossible to deal with defensive without something like a Gastrodon. I can't rlly see Drizzle lasting very long in the tier at all; maybe it's just day one panic, but it's probably best that it's suspected.
This thing, on the other hand, is a really good and healthy addition to the tier imo. It provides a decent Incineroar switchin on offense, something that was very much needed, and while it's very strong it's not really THAT crazy unboosted and can't reliably get past quite a few common, sturdy answers. A quick list (probably not exhaustive) of stuff that can defensively deal with a Keldeo spamming its STAB moves:
And when it comes to offensively checking/revenge killing we've got stuff like:
Idt Keldeo's broken or even unhealthy at all. It'll be a solid threat and will most certainly need to be adapted to, but I think it's a net gain for the tier more than anything else. Maybe I'll be wrong and it turns out to be stupid, who knows, but I doubt it'll be banworthy any time in the near future.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Also, ban Haxorus.
Quick update : Rillaboom has now access to its Hidden Ability Grassy Surge, should be implemented into showdown soon or late.
That mean cinderace has libero now?? Yikes
in all seriousness, (and to avoid shitposting <.<) I'm looking forward to offensive weezing being more splashable in this meta now without Haxorus. Toxic Spikes are definitely nice atm, but its also really good at pressuring a lot of our high usage mons on popular teams like Noivern, Incineroar, Sylveon, Escavalier etc, and being a Mold Breaker EQ weak fairy won't be an issue anymore :] Been finding it especially nice with Keldeo in the games ive played post shifts so far, since it pressures a lot of non Roserade answers being spammed like Gastrodon and Jellicent, and the additional damage on Celebi switching in is fantastic too.
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Shedstall shall rise again
Gentlemen.
Inteleon @ Scope Lens
Modest Nature
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Focus Energy
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
And what's this? Ah, hello Pelipper! How nice of you to drop in.
It's a meme, but damn if it isn't effective.
Inteleon @ Scope Lens
Modest Nature
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Focus Energy
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong on a critical hit: 280-333 (82.8 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mantine on a critical hit: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Snorlax on a critical hit: 297-351 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand on a critical hit: 480-570 (128.3 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon on a critical hit: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar on a critical hit: 288-339 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash on a critical hit: 202-238 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Yes Rotom can OHKO with Volt Switch, but the important thing is it can't switch in-- which is kind of important as a pivot.)
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mantine on a critical hit: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Snorlax on a critical hit: 297-351 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand on a critical hit: 480-570 (128.3 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon on a critical hit: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar on a critical hit: 288-339 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash on a critical hit: 202-238 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Yes Rotom can OHKO with Volt Switch, but the important thing is it can't switch in-- which is kind of important as a pivot.)
And what's this? Ah, hello Pelipper! How nice of you to drop in.
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Wash in Rain on a critical hit: 222-262 (73 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is max SpD, and this spread can't even OHKO back with Volt Switch)
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 36+ SpD Milotic in Rain on a critical hit: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pyukumuku in Rain on a critical hit: 193-229 (61.4 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 36+ SpD Milotic in Rain on a critical hit: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pyukumuku in Rain on a critical hit: 193-229 (61.4 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
You know it’s actually quite a solid idea but execution might need to be perfected. I’d say Dark Pulse is gonna be a good idea since Jellicent will doubtless rise and you may use yourself as a breaker so U-Turn isn’t necessary. You 2HKO standard max defense Gastrodon if you get the Crits but if you want to go for luck (50% to crit with Dark Pulse after just Focus Energy and no Scope Lens) you could also run Life Orb to really lay down the pain - Snipe Shot is 100% chance to crit after just Focus Energy. Or even run Hydro Pump, which has a 100% chance to crit with Focus Energy and Scope LensGentlemen.
Inteleon @ Scope Lens
Modest Nature
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Focus Energy
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong on a critical hit: 280-333 (82.8 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mantine on a critical hit: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Snorlax on a critical hit: 297-351 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand on a critical hit: 480-570 (128.3 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon on a critical hit: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar on a critical hit: 288-339 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash on a critical hit: 202-238 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Yes Rotom can OHKO with Volt Switch, but the important thing is it can't switch in-- which is kind of important as a pivot.)
And what's this? Ah, hello Pelipper! How nice of you to drop in.
It's a meme, but damn if it isn't effective.252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Wash in Rain on a critical hit: 222-262 (73 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is max SpD, and this spread can't even OHKO back with Volt Switch)
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 36+ SpD Milotic in Rain on a critical hit: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pyukumuku in Rain on a critical hit: 193-229 (61.4 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
im believing in stall again with Haxorus gone so Intelon might be good to break it
I know, that's why Pump is on the set lol.
While these are good points, I would say not to sleep on the fact that Snipe Shot + Scope Lens has a native 50% crit rate with absolutely no setup whatsoever. Meanwhile, Hydro Pump + Scope Lens only has a 12.5% Crit Rate with no setup.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
OH yeah you're right...the dark pulse and U-Turn point stands though.
I've been trying out this set and I've been having some fun with it:
Inteleon @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Air Slash/Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Energy
Thanks to Scope Lens and Sniper, Inteleon becomes a pretty decent set up sweeper that can shred through weakened teams. Once Focus Energy is set up, Inteleon can OHKO or 2HKO the entire meta with rocks up, barring Milotic and Mantine, but you can potentially musscle past them with Dark Pulse and Air Slash flinches because:
252 SpA Sniper Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mantine on a critical hit: 142-168 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Sniper Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 36+ SpD Milotic on a critical hit: 141-166 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This means that if Mantine has a small amount of chip (or boots is knocked off), then a single flinch ends it. Sadly, you would need two flinches to KO a healthy Milotic, but if it has chip, then it's going down in one flinch.
I prefer Air Slash over Ice Beam, because I can hit stuff like non scarf Keldeo, Golisopod and Araquanid while still keeping coverage for most of the grass types in the tier, except for Rotom-C, who get's 2HKO'd by every move on the set anyway (takes 76.3 - 90.8% from Hydro Pump) and never runs boots to prevent rocks damage. Additionally, Noivern outspeeds you and has a good chance to kill with Draco Meteor, so I never really missed Ice Beam. Dark Pulse ends Jellicent and it means you don't have to worry about a roll to 2HKO after rocks with Air Slash.
I've found a decent amount of set up opportunity, as people on the ladder assumed the set was Specs and gave me a free set up. Overall, I enjoyed using this set, and encourage others to give it a shot.
Inteleon @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Air Slash/Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Energy
Thanks to Scope Lens and Sniper, Inteleon becomes a pretty decent set up sweeper that can shred through weakened teams. Once Focus Energy is set up, Inteleon can OHKO or 2HKO the entire meta with rocks up, barring Milotic and Mantine, but you can potentially musscle past them with Dark Pulse and Air Slash flinches because:
252 SpA Sniper Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mantine on a critical hit: 142-168 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Sniper Inteleon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 36+ SpD Milotic on a critical hit: 141-166 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This means that if Mantine has a small amount of chip (or boots is knocked off), then a single flinch ends it. Sadly, you would need two flinches to KO a healthy Milotic, but if it has chip, then it's going down in one flinch.
I prefer Air Slash over Ice Beam, because I can hit stuff like non scarf Keldeo, Golisopod and Araquanid while still keeping coverage for most of the grass types in the tier, except for Rotom-C, who get's 2HKO'd by every move on the set anyway (takes 76.3 - 90.8% from Hydro Pump) and never runs boots to prevent rocks damage. Additionally, Noivern outspeeds you and has a good chance to kill with Draco Meteor, so I never really missed Ice Beam. Dark Pulse ends Jellicent and it means you don't have to worry about a roll to 2HKO after rocks with Air Slash.
I've found a decent amount of set up opportunity, as people on the ladder assumed the set was Specs and gave me a free set up. Overall, I enjoyed using this set, and encourage others to give it a shot.
I have been playing a fair amount with Drizzle to collect evidence of it being overpowered. After playing with it, I don't think it's as insane as initially thought. Rain struggles with a bunch of common pokemon, like Gigalith, Reuniclus (both CM and AV variants), opposing Drizzle abusers (Keldeo/Lisk/Barraskewda etc). Countermeasures do exist but Drizzle has more than enough tools to overwhelm most teams.
The biggest benefit for rain teams is the versatility they have. There are so many Pokemon that can be run to abuse Drizzle.The biggest two are Keldeo and Heliolisk. These two alone complement each other so well and break pretty much any defensive core. Then you have Noivern, which is already stupid good and now has the benefit of perfectly accurate Hurricanes. Or Mantine, which serves a similar role but also gets rain boosted Hydro Pumps. Even then, you have to deal with one of Barraskewda or Drednaw. Rain also can easily splash a Steel-type to take advantage of reducing Fire-type moves' power. In that regard, Copperajah is a fantastic partner providing Rocks and being extremely durable. You can try running a Gastrodon to counter rain only to fall to Ludicolo and Mantine variants, or run Mantine/Jellicent and get overwhelmed by SD Drednaw, Heliolisk, or even Rotom-Wash. Hell even Pelipper on its own is hard as fuck to switch in to. For this reason, I suggest we ban Drizzle and NOT Pelipper. Part of it is because we are going to get Politoed soon, and part of it is because the ability is what's broken. In 90% of matches Pelipper was a U-Turn bot and I ended up killing everything with my other abusers who work really well together. With NU and PU setting precedent for banning the weather ability in cases where there is no "trickle down" effect, I believe Drizzle should go.
Here's the team I have been using for those who wanna click Thunder, Hurricane, and Surf mindlessly: https://pokepast.es/39bd2725a0d04831.
As for Keldeo, I currently believe it is way too strong for the tier. I am down to give it a shot, but the power de-creep from last gen is palpable and I can't see it being manageable. Instead of Latias, Starmie, Mega Altaria, Amoonguss, and Primarina, we have...Noivern? Vileplume and Roserade? I feel compelled to run Jellicent or Mantine on every team to avoid getting buried by Specs Keldeo, but even those lose to other variants. We simply lack viable switch ins to Specs and stronger faster Pokemon like M-Aero/Manectric to revenge kill it (no Scarf Flygon is not a legit revenge killer). Maybe with the DLC Keldeo can be a healthy addition, but for the time being, I find it too much for the tier and would support a public suspect test on it.
The biggest benefit for rain teams is the versatility they have. There are so many Pokemon that can be run to abuse Drizzle.The biggest two are Keldeo and Heliolisk. These two alone complement each other so well and break pretty much any defensive core. Then you have Noivern, which is already stupid good and now has the benefit of perfectly accurate Hurricanes. Or Mantine, which serves a similar role but also gets rain boosted Hydro Pumps. Even then, you have to deal with one of Barraskewda or Drednaw. Rain also can easily splash a Steel-type to take advantage of reducing Fire-type moves' power. In that regard, Copperajah is a fantastic partner providing Rocks and being extremely durable. You can try running a Gastrodon to counter rain only to fall to Ludicolo and Mantine variants, or run Mantine/Jellicent and get overwhelmed by SD Drednaw, Heliolisk, or even Rotom-Wash. Hell even Pelipper on its own is hard as fuck to switch in to. For this reason, I suggest we ban Drizzle and NOT Pelipper. Part of it is because we are going to get Politoed soon, and part of it is because the ability is what's broken. In 90% of matches Pelipper was a U-Turn bot and I ended up killing everything with my other abusers who work really well together. With NU and PU setting precedent for banning the weather ability in cases where there is no "trickle down" effect, I believe Drizzle should go.
Here's the team I have been using for those who wanna click Thunder, Hurricane, and Surf mindlessly: https://pokepast.es/39bd2725a0d04831.
As for Keldeo, I currently believe it is way too strong for the tier. I am down to give it a shot, but the power de-creep from last gen is palpable and I can't see it being manageable. Instead of Latias, Starmie, Mega Altaria, Amoonguss, and Primarina, we have...Noivern? Vileplume and Roserade? I feel compelled to run Jellicent or Mantine on every team to avoid getting buried by Specs Keldeo, but even those lose to other variants. We simply lack viable switch ins to Specs and stronger faster Pokemon like M-Aero/Manectric to revenge kill it (no Scarf Flygon is not a legit revenge killer). Maybe with the DLC Keldeo can be a healthy addition, but for the time being, I find it too much for the tier and would support a public suspect test on it.
I also played some games on my free time and I agree with most of what Adaam said just above.
Rain is way too restrictive and while it has some countermeasures and doesn't like some stuff like First Impression users like Golisopod (which is a decent check to some rain abusers) it's overall pretty safe to use a rain team and just beat up the ladder. I've been using a bit Ludicolo on the ladder and while it's not the best rain abuser, it's definitively a underrated threat since it has access to Water/Grass/Ice coverage which is pretty nasty to deal with since it can break through Gastrodon with ease. The 4th slot on Ludicolo is also nasty because you can run a shit ton of moves like Leaf Storm, Protect or be mixed with Thunder Punch which is able to catch out of guard offensive Mantine. Rain teams are in my opinion too versatile because of the variety of Pokemon which can abuse of it, unlike Sun which was already dumb, Rain teams can bypass with ease other weather inducers like Gigalith. At the moment, the ladder is just pure trash : 50% rain team / 50 anti-rain team. Unlike Drought, we don't have to give a shit about lower tiers since the only weather inducer is Pelipper so I firmly believe we should ban Drizzle and not Pelipper.
On the other hand, I love Keldeo but I can't deny that it's a dumb Pokemon with a plethora of viable sets : Choice Specs, CM + Taunt/Sub, Choice Scarf or Mixed LO/Belt.. Basically nothing on the tier can freely come on Keldeo if you haven't scout its set. Mixed LO with Megahorn may sounds like a meme but it allows Keldeo to OHKO after Stealth Rock even max HP Celebi and 2HKO AV Reuniclus. I'm on the fence if we should ban it or wait next month since I don't know if we're going to get DLC shifts in July with a 2 weeks cut-off or in August with a 1/1.5 month cut-off. Even Pokemon such as Mantine or Jellicent are struggleling to handle Keldeo because CM+Taunt/Sub beats Mantine while Choice Specs Toxic Keldeo can bypass Jellicent. Grass-types can be catch out of guard by Icy Wind / Air Slash etc.. this Pokemon is insanely great and I think it may be too much for the tier to handle; However, I can deny it's hard to tell right now because of the Rain which is everywhere.
Rain is way too restrictive and while it has some countermeasures and doesn't like some stuff like First Impression users like Golisopod (which is a decent check to some rain abusers) it's overall pretty safe to use a rain team and just beat up the ladder. I've been using a bit Ludicolo on the ladder and while it's not the best rain abuser, it's definitively a underrated threat since it has access to Water/Grass/Ice coverage which is pretty nasty to deal with since it can break through Gastrodon with ease. The 4th slot on Ludicolo is also nasty because you can run a shit ton of moves like Leaf Storm, Protect or be mixed with Thunder Punch which is able to catch out of guard offensive Mantine. Rain teams are in my opinion too versatile because of the variety of Pokemon which can abuse of it, unlike Sun which was already dumb, Rain teams can bypass with ease other weather inducers like Gigalith. At the moment, the ladder is just pure trash : 50% rain team / 50 anti-rain team. Unlike Drought, we don't have to give a shit about lower tiers since the only weather inducer is Pelipper so I firmly believe we should ban Drizzle and not Pelipper.
On the other hand, I love Keldeo but I can't deny that it's a dumb Pokemon with a plethora of viable sets : Choice Specs, CM + Taunt/Sub, Choice Scarf or Mixed LO/Belt.. Basically nothing on the tier can freely come on Keldeo if you haven't scout its set. Mixed LO with Megahorn may sounds like a meme but it allows Keldeo to OHKO after Stealth Rock even max HP Celebi and 2HKO AV Reuniclus. I'm on the fence if we should ban it or wait next month since I don't know if we're going to get DLC shifts in July with a 2 weeks cut-off or in August with a 1/1.5 month cut-off. Even Pokemon such as Mantine or Jellicent are struggleling to handle Keldeo because CM+Taunt/Sub beats Mantine while Choice Specs Toxic Keldeo can bypass Jellicent. Grass-types can be catch out of guard by Icy Wind / Air Slash etc.. this Pokemon is insanely great and I think it may be too much for the tier to handle; However, I can deny it's hard to tell right now because of the Rain which is everywhere.
Keldeo @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Surf / Hydro Pump / Scald
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind / Toxic
- Megahorn
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Surf / Hydro Pump / Scald
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind / Toxic
- Megahorn
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- Status