★ np: SS UU Stage 6: Lucky Star (Jirachi BANNED & Chansey UNBANNED)

[Hogg]

The post-DLC months have been a whirlwind, between the myriad of new threats and the re-testing of UUBL, but now it's time to settle back in with another suspect test. And this time it's everyone's favorite shining star on the chopping block: Jirachi!

Jirachi has proved to be a controversial Pokemon since its introduction into UU. While it doesn't have the raw power of many previous threats, it more than makes up for it in raw versatility and sheer unbridled RNG abuse in the form of Serene Grace. Excellent bulk, a great defensive typing, above average Speed and a phenomenal movepool are what truly set this pixie apart. Anyone who has spent any time on the UU ladder has run into the Iron Head and U-turn spamming Choice Scarf, which can act as an offensive pivot, provide utility with Trick or Healing Wish and, with a little bit of luck, even sweep with Iron Head. However, this is far from the only thing Jirachi can do. It's one of the best offensive rockers in the tier thanks to its ability to punish almost every defogger and spinner in the tier. It can use its excellent bulk to become a great pivot and Wishpasser. It has a myriad of offensive sets as well, from the teeth-gnashingly frustrating SubTox to mixed sets to offensive Calm Mind.

Between Iron Head's 60% flinch chance and the sheer number of sets, there are almost no true counters to Jirachi: other than Inner Focus Umbreon (which still has to watch out for Trick), almost nothing can reliably come into every Jirachi set. So why has it never been banned before? Well, while all its sets in totality are nearly uncounterable, each individual set certainly brings with it some drawbacks. The omnipresent Scarf set struggles heavily against Water and Steel types, with Rocky Helmet Skarmory being particularly difficult for it. Its Speed tier and bulk means that it is not a simple matter to revenge kill, but non-Scarf versions are still often forced out by faster offensive threats. Fully offensive threats such as Calm Mind generally need a good bit of support to properly sweep. Jirachi has the tools to surpass almost all of its checks and counters... but it cannot use all of these tools at once.

Furthermore, many argue that despite how difficult it is to check, Jirachi is a positive presence in the tier. Defensive teams love its bulk and defensive utility, and it is one of the best checks to powerful wallbreakers such as Kyurem. Offensive teams love its ability to check common anti-offense 'mons such as Noivern without giving up momentum, or its ability to fulfill several roles in a single team slot.

So, we open the question to the community: should Jirachi remain in UU? For this suspect, we will be using the same format we used for the Haxorus test: the voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UUJ6 (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UUJ6 Hogg to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Sunday, August 30 at 8:59 PM GMT -4 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. Happy laddering!

Current UU Council

Adaam
Amane Misa
CBU
Donphantastic
Freeroamer
Hogg
Indigo Plateau
Lilburr
Moutemoute
Sabella
TDK
TonyFlygon
vivalospride

 

[ORAS-Mega]

obligatory "first" post

confirming as UUJ6 Faheata

its a shame rachi carried me just for me to give it the boot

edit: whoops just realized where this is. to keep it unshort, the post above already covered much of what I was thinking anyways. It's hard to make a bad rachi set and that in itself is frustrating. It suffers from the 4 move syndrome, but any combination of the moves it can run usually works enough to where it becomes an oppressive presence in the team. With the speed tier as well, it gets even harder to manage, and most mons that do outspeed it risk getting parad most likely if they cant 1hko it. Usually in my team, my best rachi counter is my own rachi and its a game of who gets statused first pretty much. Relying on that rng to literally decide how a game goes is not something I'd like to consistently do.

 

[Lil Infant Tylenol]

I just received reqs and would like to share my team I made for the suspect ladder



This team was an HO team I made in about 10 minutes to try to get quick games in the ladder. Skarm is probably my favorite suicide lead ATM. I choose Iron head over taunt for Hatt who is top tier rn. I then went with the classic Bishikyu combo that few non-full stall teams are weak to. I then chose Noivern as speed control. I ran U-turn on Noivern cause without u-turn it gave to many free switches to things like Hatt and Slowking (both of which I have trouble switching into). Keldeo teams up well with Bishiyku as it can take care of the threats they dont like and vice versa. I choose Lycanroc in my final spot as another priority and something that can hit hard and outspeed the swords of justice and deal with stuff like Shark, noivern, talonflame. I also forgo having a scarfer since I had 3 forms of priority and pretty good speed control in Noivern. I got reqs in 42 games and I really never felt like I was screwed from the team preview at any point with the team. The team has trouble with stall teams and doublade and mimikyu can be almost always knock one thing if the opponent plays them right. Wash rotom is another annoyance to the team cause of defog and the fact that non of my mons can OHKO.

Edit:
Thinking about it for a little, I believe Jirachi should not be banned. Yes, Iron Head flinching is annoying, but I believe that Rachi is closer to a "master of none" than people like to think. It can run any set, but that doesn't mean that every set (or even most) it run is good. It currently is the best lure mon rn, but once you figure out its set, it is managable the vast majority of the time. I can be convinced either way, but I think it is too important to the meta for it to be banned because it is annoying.

 

[TaxiCab]

Just gonna put some of my thoughts about jirachi, hopefully this post makes some kind of sense. As it stands, I'm leaning more towards ban, but I understand the no ban argument and do agree with parts of the argument.

One big reason for ban is just how frustrating it is to play and build for jirachi-not just getting flinched down or thunder parad or trying to break past wish tect or trying to check cm scarf and 4 attacks in the builder or whatever, which other people surely have touched on and will touch on, but how difficult it is to try to make progress (I don't think its the right term but I can't find a better word) against it. When you put a jirachi on your team, in theory, you need some sort of way to deal with its offensive checks; for example, lets say obstagoon. However, obstagoon can't even come in on jirachi and make progress or apply pressure, because jirachi can simply flinch it down and prevent it from attacking. This makes jirachi a very very low drawback pick for any team, because it is so hard to take advantage of it. Obstagoon is not alone; mons like roserade, toxtricity, krookodile, kyurem, necrozma, etc are completely shut down simply because they cannot get an attack off. You can even 1v1 mimikyu if you have bulk, which is hilarious.This is not to say jirachi is without defensive weakness or anything, I just wanted to show how little drawback there is by putting a jirachi onto a team and really how unique jirachi is. This is invaluable for offense and defense alike, as it prevents hard to check threats from getting turns to attack. For comparison, look at a mon like bronzong-same typing, same function defensively, also sets rocks, but is a complete momentum sap and lets in so many threats for free (this is also why every jirachi set even wish tect runs speed for at least kyu and goon-its just insanely valuable and too good to give up)

Jirachi is also extremely difficult to check. You have to deal with a plethora of sets, and it can be very difficult to take them all into account. CM comes to mind as probably the most difficult, but offensive three attacks is also rough, and trying to check all of these sets has been a massive factor in how terrible balance and bulkier teams in general have been-there are other problems, but it is too hard to try to check all the jirachi sets with a bulkier team unless you are running something akin to stall or fat semistall. It has ridiculous coverage and offensive has tons of different viable movesets. Another big factor is not knowing what the jirachi set is until it reveals what it is-seeing lefties or seeing sr or seeing uturn or seeing iron head is not sufficient, because there are so many combinations that you don't really know until the set has revealed more info. Obviously, you can just look at the team and get a pretty good idea, but if you are wrong, it can be devastating, especially against CM sets.

This being said, I do understand where the no ban argument is coming from, and my mind could definitely be changed. I will say that the massive use of jirachi is not just the fact that it is so ubiquitous, but also that massive jirachi use is a symptom of a bigger problem, which is the amount of annoying mons that are very hard to check, especially with the very few good steels we have in the tier-mons like kyurem, hatterene, and even other jirachi, and in the case of scarf, terrak and lycanroc. One can defintely argue that jirachi is healthy for the tier because of how useful it is in checking these mons; it is the only thing that can help with all three, and it does so much more too; however, if the argument is that jirachi is one of the only things holding these guys back, maybe they should be up next. I also think that CM jirachi is gassed a little too much; it is a bigger threat in the builder than it is in reality, and it can be pretty hard to fit onto teams-if you're not running scarf jirachi or rocks jirachi, you need to fit an sr user (which, outside of jirachi, are not phenomenal-another reason for its obscene usage) as well as (usually) one of scarf mienshao, keldeo, or krookodile. However, it is also very difficult to prep for, and especially behind screens or under webs, it is a nightmare and definitely the most scary jirachi set to face.

These were just some interesting thoughts I wanted to put out there, I definitely didn't cover that much and they werent super organized but thats ok, hopefully this made sense, thanks for reading

 

[maki]

Heya everyone, after getting reqs a little while ago

using these teams with Sub-Toxic Jirachi, I thought that it would be nice to write down some of my thoughts concerning Jirachi in the tier.

Starting things off regarding whether or not Jirachi should be banned, I am leanly towards that the little devil should be made gone. In my eyes, the biggest problem of Jirachi is its versatility in having so many different viable sets that require different checks. For example, we can take a look at both Jirachi's CM and Sub-Toxic set. Usually against Wish or Scarf variants of Jirachi, defensive Water pokemon like Gastrodon, Slowking, and Rotom-Wash should be able to hold their own against Jirachi. However against the sets mentioned before, these defensive Water pokemon are often at risk from being setup on behind a sub or whittled down with the use of Toxic and Iron Head flinches. even if you figure out what Jirachi set it is, capitalizing on it can be difficult, the fact that Jirachi has access to U-Turn allows it potentially whittle down the one or two checks you have to that particular Jirachi set. Too add onto that, Jirachi's infuriating high chance of flinches/paralysis just makes it that much more of a nuisance to deal with; even with the correct Jirachi check, RNG factors can still bring you into a disadvantageous state.

It is important to recognize though that Jirachi brings the tier certain benefits such as acting as a great defensive presence with its steel typing; defensive teams appreciate Jirachi's ability of dealing with threatening offensive threats like Kyurem and Hatterene along with its ability to setup wishes for its team. Furthermore, while many of Jirachi's set do have different checks and counters, it's still not able to do everything at once; each set requires different support and playstyle around it and are threatened by different pokemon.

 

[Cynde]

got reqs used stall all the way through. the OP covers most of what jirachi does and the reason why I'd like it banned is because during play you're constantly dealing with too many guessing games and guessing wrong has implications for the particular mon you've elected to check the jirachi set you think it's going to be. so in practice it's much tougher (at least in the beginning of the battle) to react to it. scarf jirachi's fast flinch tactics coupled with a buffed trick this generation / any variety of the mixed sets / defensive / stealth rock or sub ones / cm, all require different responses. checking it is also pretty frustrating because we have no naturally faster darks / ghosts / grounds or fire types so more often than not you're dealing with it reactively rather than proactively. I think it's too much to ask (with the current tools we have) to account for all of those sets during play coupled with the greater than not chance that you fill be flinched.

it definitely does keep threatening pokemon like kyurem at bay and i think the most common anti-ban argument is going to be something along the lines of "necessary evil" or something like that. but if that is the case i would just say that getting rid of this is a positive step that could pave the way for getting rid of some other problematic stuff in the future.

 

[Lily]

I got reqs in what was probably the worst laddering session of my life by spamming a team with a Mudsdale:

I'll outline my thoughts on Jirachi in a pros and cons type of thing.


The Good
-Jirachi keeps many prominent, highly threatening Pokemon in check. This includes Pokemon like Hatterene, Terrakion, Kyurem, Lycanroc-Dusk, and Mamoswine, among others. Some of these Pokemon would undoubtedly be broken without Jirachi's omnipresence.
-Jirachi provides a lot of utility in one slot that can be hard to find in any other Pokemon (bulky steel that isn't passive + speed control + wallbreaker + anything else depending on set)
-...the list sort of ends here.

The Bad
-Jirachi massively constrains teambuilding due to lack of available counterplay to all sets. Checks to the Scarf set like Skarmory and Palossand immediately lose to the Mixed set, while checks to the Mixed set like Slowking will often lose to Calm Mind or Substitute + Toxic. This means that any given team will need at least 2 or 3 slots dedicated to checking Jirachi if they want to be truly safe against it.
-Jirachi has no counters. Yes, Umbreon is fairly close to it, but even that's vulnerable to Trick sets and can lose to CM Colbur if it's slightly weakened, and it's also just a generally bad Pokemon in the meta anyway. This ties in to the first point of necessitating multiple checks per team bc of how loose counterplay to Jirachi is.
-Teams without Jirachi are... suboptimal, simply put. As you can see in the UUWC Replays/Stats thread, Jirachi is not only at an astonishingly high 76.92% usage, but it's also maintaining a 51.25% winrate - this means that any team without a Jirachi was fairly consistently losing to a team with one. Jirachi is also necessary to deal with certain aforementioned threats like Hatterene, but I really don't think that's a good argument to keep it in the tier.
-More, but it was mostly outlined in the previous posts.

If more Pokemon are broken as a result of Jirachi's ban, the council will address those Pokemon as we see fit. Please don't let that influence your decision when voting or making posts here - a hypothetical future version of the tier should not be taken into account when trying to decide what to do with our current tier. Needlessly to say, I'll be voting ban on Jirachi, and while I don't think my opinion will be swayed, I encourage others to keep posting their thoughts here.

 

[dingbat]

jirachi is a certified piece of prick shit pokemon; pls throw it back into the fucking fire

nuff said

 

[Monky25]

Was on the verge of getting reqs, but then spiraled out with a 5 loss streak and decided that i'd like to keep my sanity and retry getting reqs another time. To keep it short, Jirachi is banworthy for really only 2 reasons: RNG and versatility. First up is RNG, as Jirachi is able to beat common pokemon that can live a hit and threaten it back due to utilizing it's ability, Serene Grace. With serene grace, Jirachi's chances of flinching a pokemon with iron head are doubled to 60%, which is insane. Pokemon like krookdoile and obstagoon, who are able to live a hit and threaten it, are suddenly screwed due to getting flinched to death by this starry bastard. In addition, Jirachi's good stats don't do it any favors in keeping it. With base 100 defenses and HP, its able to live lots of non boosted SE hits and dish out damage in return. Moreover, base 100 speed outruns a lot of the metagame and it can go either physical or special due to it's mixed attacking stats. This brings me to my next argument, it's versatility. Jirachi is the ultimate glue mon, being able to run a plethora of sets effectively. The problem is it is impossible to tell what Jirachi is running until it does some serious damage to your team. I can think it's scarf locked into iron head so i switch into skarm only to be blasted by thunder. Similarly, I can think it's special and go into ttar only to get flinched to death by iron head. It has such a wide movepool that depending on what the team needs, it can run anything and still be effective. Jirachi centralizes building, as you are putting yourself at a disseminate if you don't run it. Overall, all these factors make Jirachi very banworthy in my eyes. I may not end up getting reqs, but for those who are able to, I'd recommend voting ban.

Btw, Jirachi checking other top threats isn't a valid argument, if a pokemon will be problematic should Jirachi leave, then action will be taken on that pokemon as well. Broken checks broken doesn't work and shouldn't work if we want to create a healthy metagame.

 

[Twilight]

Shoutout Lilburr for tilting me and ruining my run twice with the fcking teapot

So far the only pro arguments I've seen about Jirachi are it has good compression and keeps other shit in check. The former argument definitely has credit but the latter one, personally, shouldn't be a reason to keep it around. The community has already expressed that stuff like Lycanroc-D, Kyurem, Hatt, etc. are all really scary threats but if they are considered broken then they should equally be removed from the tier. Overall, I believe Jirachi has more negatives than positives. I pretty much agree with the above posts about the negative implications it has. I had a game against Ramo where I'd say his team had a very good matchup against most Jirachi sets, but because I was using a Substitute + Toxic variant it just folded to it. I wouldn't exactly call that fault in building, but it being really difficult to handle each set effectively. It's genuinely frustrating using something slower than Jirachi that really should be able to 'check it' but being unable to if they get the 60% in their favour. I have no issue with there being a top dog in the metagame but I firmly believe Jirachi has an unhealthy influence on this tier to warrant keeping.

For these reasons, I plan to vote ban and I hope teambuilding will become a lot more diverse without having to try and have counterplay to every Jirachi set alongside a dozen other threats. As of right now, not using Jirachi is basically gimping yourself and I've had several situations where I just flinch through would be checks (To physical sets) like Magneton or Toxtricity. There was a game against Lily where I flinched through 4 of her Pokemon with Iron Head but alas she haxed me, as usual, and her Poltea didn't get flinched. Ban that Pokemon too.

 

[Moutemoute]

Uh I’d forgotten how painful laddering in suspect was..Not gonna lie I'm going to be pretty brief on that one since previous posts summarize pretty well my thoughts on Jirachi. I think there is absolutely 0 drawback to use Jirachi in a team because it can fulfil almost any role from Stealth Rocks setter to Wish Passer including Choice Scarf, Calm Mind etc.. No matter what kind of archetype you're using, Jirachi will fit in there. Defensive builds appreciates a lot the fact that Jirachi is one of the best offensive answers to threats such as Hatterene, Celebi or Kyurem while offensive teams can rely on Jirachi to either act as an offensive support+pivot thanks to Choice Scarf + Healing Wish or as a great lure thanks to its amazing movepool which allows it to bypass almost any check. The main issue I have with Jirachi is how centralizing it is and how it's hard to check it because you can't assume what is its moveset before it revealed it entirely. I don't think Jirachi is the most broken Pokemon he have in the current metagame (I think LycanDusk is way iffy to handle) but I don't like how the metagame is twisted around it and how you almost have to use it in every single team. Like, it has been used in more than 75% of WCUU teams which definitively shows how it wraps the metagame around itself. So yeah I'm not 100% sure yet about my final thoughts on Jirachi but at the moment, I'm voting toward banning it.

tl;dr : not 100% sure yet but more likely to vote ban

As usual I'm sharing my teams with which I got my reqs, feel free to use them to get yours :

importable

Lycanroc @ Focus Sash
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Endeavor
- Accelerock

Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Protect
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Close Combat

Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough

Bisharp @ Black Glasses
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head

Jirachi @ Expert Belt
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Healing Wish
- Iron Head
- Thunder
- Energy Ball

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond
- Icy Wind

importable

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Iron Head
- Thunder

Hatterene (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Draining Kiss
- Mystical Fire

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spe
Bold Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Scald
- Sludge Bomb

Cobalion @ Chople Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch
- Iron Head
- Close Combat

Rotom-Mow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Leaf Storm

Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough

 

[Beastly.]

Req Gang, anyway yeah many of my thoughts on Jirachi have already been said, Jirachi has such a diverse amount of movesets it can run, from standard scarf set, to sub cm, to cm 3 attacks, stealth rock wish, I've been seeing a decent bit of stealth rock, iron head, energy ball, thunder which hits many of the usual counters to Jirachi. At the same time, I also feel Jirachi might be a necessary evil due to other massive threats. Jirachi's ability to come in vs Kyurem, when most of the tier outside of say Sylveon can't really do, keeps that monster from destroying whole games. I think if Jirachi is to get banned, it would lead to several other suspects, which would be a pretty big shift in the tier.

I am not sure if I will keep this vote, but at the moment I am leaning towards Ban, as it extremely limits teambuilding, as you need to save a few slots of your team just to counter different Jirachi Sets. Also cause people have been doing it, I'll drop the team I used for my reqs, and because I feel like Necrozma might leave us in Usage anyway.

Necrozma Importable

Necrozma @ Power Herb
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 108 HP / 188 SpA / 212 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Meteor Beam
- Heat Wave
- Photon Geyser
- Autotomize

Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Flip Turn
- Icy Wind

Palossand @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scorching Sands
- Shadow Ball
- Stealth Rock
- Shore Up

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell

Bisharp @ Black Glasses
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance

Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Roost
- Defog
- Brave Bird

 

[okispokis]

I know we're in the middle of the Jirachi suspect right now, but for those not participating (or you're like me and lack the skill necessary to get the reqs), I just wanted to drop some tech I've been experimenting with these last few days.

Gimmicky (but Good): Sharpedo

Sharpedo. Every experienced player of SwSh UU (and those who had to temporarily endure it in RU) knows what this thing does: a frail but potentially devastating late-game cleaner, Sharpedo may have mons that can normally answer it fairly easily, but you'd better hope they're still in good shape by the endgame. At the moment, however, the Shark is currently caught in the nets of RUBL; the main reason for this (besides its nonexistent bulk) is that while devastating, the Shark is rather one-dimensional: it needs Hydro Pump since otherwise Skarmory and Geezing hard wall it, it needs Close Combat to smash big threats like Kyurem, Tyranitar and Cloyster, and it needs Dark STAB because- well, STAB (the current guides recommend Dark Pulse, but I personally prefer Crunch: it hits harder due to higher physical attack, can drop Defense, and means you don't struggle to break Tentacruel, CM or AV Hatterene, Dragalge and the underrated Mantine. Still, DP flinch goes brrrr). And finally, it needs Protect in order to rack up that initial Speed Boost and start the sweep. Or does it? Behold!

Hehe, whoopsie! Now behold:

Sharpedo w/Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Att/4 SpA/252 Spe; Naughty/Naive Nature
-Substitute
-Close Combat
-Crunch
-Hydro Pump

Yes, Substitute. You see, the thing about Shark normally is that it needs to KO whatever it attacks, or else its rather unimpressive bulk means it falls to at least 90% of common attacks. Also, without support from Psychic Terrain or screens, Shark can get bopped by any strong priority should any users remain active. I originally conceived of SubShark specifically to mitigate these two factors; after all, most priority users lack the ability to take one of Shark's hits after breaking Sub, while not many mons in general can live 2 hits. As such, Sub provides Shark with a free safety net should it fall just short of the KO (or if Hydro misses, and if you're like me, that tends to happen a lot) while preventing common priority users from just taking care of it when they can come in. "But how to set up a Sub?" you may ask? Well, the intended method was to take advantage of that conception of Shark as one-dimensional; imagine, if you will, your opponent trying to heal a slightly chipped bulky mon or switching in a mon that Shark can't OHKO on that expected Protect, only to watch Shark get behind the safety of Sub, completely flipping the tables on them. In practice- this didn't work out too well. As I stated earlier, I'm actually a lower ladder player, and down here a lot of players tend to take the strategy of "just click buttons". But hope was not lost for our four- finned friend: even without opponents trying to play mind games, there are still plenty of slower mons that the Shark can scare out or safely sub against. This does mean that SubShark can struggle against faster teams, so in hindsight I'd recommend using Sticky Web (or other reliable form of Speed control) if you can slot it in, just in case.

The Life Orb variant of this idea also packs the ability to potentially be used as a mid-game wallbreaker as opposed to running clean-up (given my experience, it's possible that's actually the better way to use this variant, but I can't say for sure). As for the nature, I welched on SpD as opposed to physical defense since, again, part of the idea of this set was to flip the script on priority users, so I wanted to be able to live weaker priority just in case; I ran Naughty for extra damage output, although Naive is also an option since Naughty can struggle to get started against other base 95s (or Timid Washtom, grumble grumble). You could also run a Rash variant with DP if you prefer that to Crunch (might be better, again I don't know for sure). Still, this set does pack the drawback of losing 2-3 attacks with each Sub, and is not necessarily the best fit for that late-game cleaner role, so I wondered if there might be an alternative. Or maybe two...

Sharpedo w/ Liechi Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Att/4 SpA/252 Spe; Naughty/Naive Nature
-Substitute
-Close Combat
-Crunch
-Hydro Pump

Sharpedo w/Petaya Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Att/252 SpA/252 Spe; Rash Nature
-Substitute
-Close Combat
-Dark Pulse
-Hydro Pump

Yep, for these two sets I went back to the SubPinch strats of Shark's own RSE. Shark has always been reliant on Life Orb (at least since DPP) to get off that damage due to its lack of setup; however, either Liechi or Petaya Berry can fix that issue as well. Forgoing LO also allows you a little extra longevity, namely more Subs. You see, the funny thing about Shark's HP is that it sits at 281 without EV investment; due to how Substitute calculates the HP removal, this means that an undamaged SubPinchShark can potentially set up 4 substitutes without healing. Once boosted, Shark's two attacks, depending on the set, will actually hit harder than with Life Orb; this does come with the tradeoff of either Hydro or CC doing less depending on which variant you run, although in practice this only made things harder against Skarm and Geezing for Liechi. Despite that, the Liechi set actually gave me the most success during my testing, both for Shark and the whole team. Petaya- did not do as well or get as many chances to shine as the other two variants, but that might just be because the lower- ladder was doing that thing were everyone is either running one gimmicky mon that just so happens to completely screw you or the team was so garbage that I didn't even need Shark. On paper, Petaya SubShark does have the disadvantage of having to go for a +SpA nature since its Special Attack is not that impressive by UU standards, meaning it lacks the luxury to run a +Speed nature, which can limit set up opportunities against faster teams. Still, while my overall record during testing was a mixed bag, SubShark was quite possibly the most consistent member of my team, as every game where is got to use a move saw it claiming at least 1-2 lives across the three variants I tested. But I think it might be more effective to just show you, so here we have some replays of SubShark saving my ass.

Life Orb:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1170561837 (SubShark starts 26).
Liechi:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1170628752-u21yppcxqc3cij0l5jtvxrglo222gbqpw (SubShark starts 36. I'd like to shout out MichaelVilla's Trick Darmanitan tech, which actually screwed me over in our first match (this was our second match). That's why I switch in Geezing that one time).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1170643611 (SubShark starts 34).
Petaya:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1171213188-dt7yuoe3xrzb779vfqwxlezjosjsbm0pw (SubShark starts 23. This is why Scarf tends to be the best option on Chandy).

As you can see in these replays, a well-played SubShark can easily swing the tide of battle in its user's favor. Generally speaking, the tests did show that Sub was successful for providing a safety net, which did come in clutch several times. In terms of the specific matchups, here's a few advantages that SubShark holds over the standard Protect variant.
Duskroc and Mamoswine: I didn't encounter these two much, surprisingly, but they are prime examples of priority users that are just screwed against SubShark; if you don't have them on the field when Shark comes in, you'd better hope their partners are still healthy. Also, CC from even the Petaya set guarantees the KO on both behind Sub, so you don't even need to risk the Hydro miss most of the time.
Bisharp: Surprisingly, this was the mon the SubShark got the most comparative advantage out of in practice. While Shark does resist it, it still doesn't want to take boosted Sucker Punch. Sub basically guarantees the KO against Sharp, as Shark easily reads the Sucker and sets up. However, Sharp still has to Sucker since otherwise it gets shredded by CC.
Ditto: While not currently UU by usage, I have heard about Ditto seeing serious usage on semi-stall teams, and did run into a few of them. If this were the normal Shark set, then sending it out might open the risk of being counterswept by your own set; however, Sub provides a no win situation for Ditto. If it comes in on that predicted Protect or forced switch, Shark subs and easily takes Ditto out next turn (unless Ditto tries to be cute and lock into Sub, which can be easily PP stalled). Of course, if Shark already has its Sub up, then Ditto is stuck untransformed and can be taken out by a light breeze.

As for partners, here are a few potentially great ones I've scouted. There may be more/better options for partners, but I'm sure smarter players can think of those options if they exist.

While SubShark doesn't necessarily need Grimmsnarl or Mindeedee to nullify priority for it, it still greatly appreciates help from these gents. Grimmsnarl's Reflect provides some extra security against common priority, while the rarer Mindeedee nullifies it entirely, although Mind is still worse than Grimm since it doesn't ease Shark's inherent burden of getting in safely like screens do.

Speaking of getting Shark in safely, the (Slow)King of UU can achieve this thanks to naturally solid bulk and Teleport. It can also provide some useful status thanks to Scald and TWave to give more opportunities for Shark to come in.

I initially decided to pair SubShark with Fighting types in order to bait Psychic attacks for more switch-in opportunities for Shark; however, I quickly found that Geezing was much better in this regard since it doesn't share a Fairy weakness. Like Slowking, it can provide status to whittle down more problematic Shark checks, thanks to Sludge Bomb poison and Wisp. It also really helped with the Skarm matchup, as it can threaten Skarm with Fire coverage, and packs an immunity to Toxic, a quad resist to Body Press and potential Defog to screw over Skarm's hazards.

In honesty, I went with Cobalion as my Fighting type mainly so I could Iron Head opposing Fairies. However, it can offer good support beyond that thanks to Rocks, fast TWave (which has been really great against opposing Jirachi, funnily enough) and Taunt to allow it to wear down defensive mons. A great overall mon whose talents can be uniquely suited to help Shark.

Like I said, while I ultimately didn't get around to testing Webs, it's definitely one of the best ways to help Shark start the sweep if your opponent is loading up on fast mons. I'm not recommending any particular Web setter since I'm not sure which would be best suited for a team with Shark.

Overall, these partners lead me to believe that SubShark may be best suited as either a partner to a more defensive team or as a member of a HO hazard stacking team.

Now, is this set better than the standard Shark set? Probably not. While it can provide great mind games, help with the problem of priority and let Shark take an extra hit, the lack of Protect can definitely hurt against an opponent who loves fast offense or doesn't really feel like playing mind games. The whole +Att/SpA vs +Spe nature would never be an issue for the Protect set, since there you can always get at least one Speed boost for free. I fully acknowledge that this is, in fact, a gimmick no matter how effective I found it to be. Still, there's far worse gimmicks one could be running in UU. ;)

There may be more variants of SubShark that could see great success with the right support, possibly even one with Sub and Protect, but I can't speak to how effective those would be (plus I don't have the patience to extensively test any more SubShark variants). I may not be a top-tier player, but I hope this info could be of great use to an objectively better player, hence why I've been going on about SubShark for so long. So, to sum up: SubShark is an admittedly gimmicky option for Sharpedo that can still greatly reward any trainer brave or crazy enough to try it out, especially since it can be effectively supported by some of the best mons in the tier. Thank you for taking the time to read this post.

PS: I couldn't help but notice on Showdown that Sharpedo, along with Zoroark and Linoone, is still listed as RU despite currently being RUBL. If whoever's in charge of that is reading this, I just wanted to let you know.

 

[Bad feeling]

Jirachi is fine in UU. People seem to discover predicting jirachi is not easy. Fine, he has centralizing UU more than Noivern in early SWSH but i find saing "Jirachi has no drawback" sound like a lie. Jirachi has a hard time against knock offf spams and defensive threats or bulky one like Escvalier, Umbreon,, Bronzong, Incineroar, Bisharp and Doublade. I think UU council focus on Jirachi when we have no or so few reliable options to deal in balanced or offensive build with Kyurem and Hatte. My opinion is jirachi is the UU's spacegoat. We have real issues with Kyurem or even Terrakion. Jirachi suspecting is a waste of time.

 

[solonor24]

Laddered with a team with no resists to any common attack but necrozma somehow won every game

/ / / / /
Team importable: https://pokepast.es/c0df04075bbbb9c3

replays of the team: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1171386774
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1171574135

Before I even begin to discuss Jirachi i will let you know this team will only work on the ladder. Do not even consider trying it out against anyone competent unless u get gifted a godly mu. It's very brainless, webs rocks go up and win with one of your wincons. Prioritize getting rid of your opponents removal with surf araq/ meteor beam. Necrozma absolutely shits on the ladder because they love skarmory + incineroar/ttar teams that pretty much just lose as soon as you setup.

Onto Jirachi... I think anyone in their right mind would vote ban for many many reasons. One being its a mon that makes the user very restricted in the builder. You can have all the best Jirachi "answers" in the world, but its just not enough. It has about 5 viable sets: sub toxic, belt, scarf, calm mind, wish. All of which leave you guessing as to what moves it has, since it gets almost every move that can just screw you over. It's very hard to tell on team preview what Jirachi your opponent will be as well, so you cant even gameplan around it. Even when it doesn't have the moves necessary to win, it will defy the odds with serene grace bullshit that makes the tier unplayable and removes the skill element of the game. There's a reason why this thing has upwards of 75% usage in uuwc. Too many tools at its disposal such as healing wish, 60% flinch rate, normal wish, and about every coverage move in the game that can spread status as an added bonus.

It's stats and typing also make it able to accomplish so many things for whatever team structure the user is envisioning. Any team without jirachi is automatically a subpar team compared to a team with jirachi on it, thats how much its impact is felt on every single game.

Overall, I feel Jirachi has made this tier borderline unplayable for reasons stated above. It would allow for much more creativity in its absence, and it would make games more about skill rather than luck.

 

[Adaam]

A lot of well-argued posts have been made to ban Jirachi, and it would further help these arguments to add replay evidence. I will show multiple tournament games, using UU Open and UUWC, in which Jirachi single-handedly tilts the game into the user's favor.

UU Open - Bouff vs Xray

This game demonstrates the Serene Grace cheese that is present with any Iron Head Jirachi. Bouff has a Rocky Helmet Skarmory, one of the sturdiest physical Jirachi counters in the tier, and it is still flinched down at a healthy percentage and eventually KOd by Jirachi. Anything slower is turned into a potential liability and allows Jirachi to muscle past many things that would otherwise check it (like Obstagoon).

UUWC - Adaam vs ZoroDark

ZoroDark has normally strong checks in Gastrodon + Skarmory, but he runs into my mixed Jirachi with Grass + Electric coverage. His team has no counters to my particular set, even if it handles 4 other sets well. This replay bolsters the versatility argument - no team is ever safe against all Jirachi sets.

UUWC - Confide vs pif

Another example of the right set smashing the right team. Confide reveals that he is CM Jirachi, a menace for stall teams to face. Even if Quagsire was alive, it fails to take unboosted Psychics reliably.

UUWC - Adaam vs Ramolost

This shows the power of Wish Jirachi, who despite taking an early Specs Earth Power from Kyurem, manages to heal back to full multiple times through Serene Grace flinches and Protect. It's staying power is incredible and even reveals Body Slam to add for further cheese,

Jirachi is a monster and is seeing usage higher than even Scizor last gen. Every game is heavily weighed on how each player plays around the Jirachi turns. Let's ban it so Jah is viable again

 

[ehehehehxcx]

Like the aforementioned post, I understand there is a suspect test, but I have been playing UU for a while with this team, and I wanted to shed light on this tech I have been experimenting with: Dragon Dance Milotic.



Milotic (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Surf

Milo can naturally be switched onto the field against mons it can check, such as Incineroar and Noivern. And while they pivot out into a more favorable match against her, she can set up a Dragon Dance. On another note, a Modest 100 Special Attack stat is fairly well, especially considering that any random stat drop(s), Intimidate, Sticky Webs, or Defog can activate Competitive that gives her the potential to wipe out an unsuspected player’s mon(s) or sweep an entire team if he or she lacks a check or counter at full health. I have had a number of players forfeit mid-or-late-game after realizing Milo has a +2 SpA boost, along with a +1 Speed boost. Of course, there are only a few mons that can still outpace it at a +1 boost, including Talonflame, Ribombee, and other Choice Scarfers, but there are even fewer that would want to take a +2 STAB move or Ice Beam.

An investment of 224 Spe is enough for Milo to outpace Noivern when she is at +1. Otherwise, the rest of the EVs are dedicated into SpA and HP to help her longevity in the game. While Dragon Dance and Recover are mandatory on this set to function well, as the latter allows Milo to heal herself throughout the duration, there are some alternatives to the attacking moves and item of choice. Hydro Pump and Mud Shot could be use for immediate power and certain coverage, but the former lacks PP and insurance compared to Surf, and Mud Shot is only used for Toxtricity, and Milo can already 2HKO it. Weakness Policy is an albeit highly risky but beneficial reward, for if someone can trigger it (i.e. lure Rotom-W and let it Volt Switch Milo at full health) and set up Dragon Dance without fainting, that alone can almost always guarantee a win.

Using Milo at her fullest would come directly from setting up hazards on the field and luring Defoggers to come in, preferably more passive ones like G-Weezing and Skarmory. Taunt and hazard users best fit with Milo since she requires a good amount of team-building around and prediction. Keeping her healthy as much as possible ensures that any priority moves from mons such as Mimikyu, Doublade, and Lycanroc-D do not successfully revenge kill her. As recognized, she is best fit as a mid-to-late cleaner.

Here are some replays that I think support my observations. Let me know the results if you decide to use DD Comp Milo!

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1172074219
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1172028823
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1171848432

 

[BigFatMantis]

I just finished getting reqs for suspect (was a hassle because I don't search on ladder at good times when people are active usually), so I wanted to share my thoughts here on it:

First, since I am very pro-Ban on Jirachi, I wanted to get reqs without a Jirachi on my team, which I did. The team I used was Magneton/Araquanid/Skarmory/Tsareena/Indeedee/Scyther for all 60+ fights I did. There were various mons that were more problematic for me to face than Jirachi (Belly Drum Slurpuff destroys my team mostly), but I still think Jirachi needs to go for the following reasons:

1. Jirachi has many many different possible sets, and it is good at all of them. I don't agree with many arguments saying it is sort of average but resourceful. It's not average - it is very much above average and very good at any set it wants to do. As such, whenever you encounter a Jirachi, you have absolutely no idea what you are going to face from a variety of potential options, including physical sets, scarf sets, special sets, set up sets, defensive sets, hyper offensive sets, etc. It causes you to take a few turns of anxiety before you figure it out. Of course, there are other pokemon that are also like this, and this alone doesn't make it ban-worthy. In fact, I am usually very very against banning anything because it is "too strong" or "too versatile", unless it is totally and completely out of hand. BUT then we get to:

2. Jirachi is the absolute, easiest, without a doubt pokemon to abuse RNG with in the entire game probably. It is a worse offender than Togekiss in OU. The most egregious offenders of this are the Jirachi sets with some combination of Thunder/Body Slam and Iron Head. They are making their entire strategy based on 60% procs in various places and that it just terrible. I have lost games based purely on a flinch, and it is one of the most frustrating things ever. Even if I trapped with Magneton, most Jirachi's have U-Turn to switch out, and some have Fire Punch. If they don't and they are stuck, I have had a Jirachi flinch Magneton 16 out of 20 times and almost KO it before I was able to take it down. That really just shouldn't happen in competitive battling.

3. Now, there are other pokemon that also abuse RNG pretty bad, that are not banned. Galarian Slowbro w/ Quick Claw comes to mind. While it is upsetting to lose to that, it's not the same effect. At best, it gets one free attack to go first on you, at +2 with Nasty Plot. As long as you have something to counter it (Mantine is a good counter in RU), you can take the hit and do some good damage back to it. With Jirachi, you can get almost unlimited attacks with enough flinches in a row, even on stuff that is supposed to counter it (except Inner Focus Umbreon, which, when we are forced to use Inner Focus Umbreon for anything, that should be a red flag that something is wrong). Slowbro is usually better served with Regenerator because the 50% is not worth it. Jirachi has no drawback because it doesn't give anything up with Iron Head flinch - it has no other abilities, and Iron Head fits into almost any set.

4. Now, I also get that there's stuff in the tier that people want to also address that they feel are just too powerful (Terrakion, Kyurem, Lycanroc, etc.). I typically don't have a problem with any of those things, as they aren't very versatile so you can usually tell what they are going to do. I do agree that they are more powerful and threatening than Jirachi. But they are significantly easier to deal with initially because you know what you are facing, and you aren't going to get RNG abused. Terrakion and Lycanroc can't do much at all to something like Palossand. Kyurem, if spec'd, just needs to be predicted. If not spec'd, then it doesn't do quite enough to high SpD pokemon like Slowbro or Araquanid, even with Freeze Dry. Jirachi, you can predict it 100% perfectly, with a very good check mon, and still lose because of a bad flinch. Or, you can think you know the right set for it (looks like physical Iron Head spam), only for your Rocky Helmet Skarmory to die to Thunder.

5. Even if a pokemon is very powerful, AND has the ability to abuse RNG like Jirachi, I still don't think it should be banned if there are things that just totally blow it away. This is not the case for the current state of UU. There is nothing here that you can just insert and say GG Jirachi. OU has plenty for that (gl with Urshifu), but UU is very lacking in things to overpower Jirachi at the moment. So while that may change in the future, the current state of UU just does not allow for Jirachi to exist here in any sort of healthy fasion.

With all of this being said, there is one more argument that I was seeing discussed that I want to chime in on. It is the whole "Jirachi is good because it checks other problematic mons like Kyurem" vs. "Broken doesn't check Broken.":

It is 100% true that Broken does not check Broken. If something is broken and does not belong in the tier, we shouldn't be using an argument that it helps with something else that is also problematic. HOWEVER, we need to be careful that we don't take this argument too far. One problematic mon checking another problematic mon does not justify it in the tier. But if we have a situation where multiple problematic mons may check other multiple problematic/banned mons, then it is possible that the metagame itself should be re-evaluated and maybe some of these mons could re-enter and transform it. I am NOT saying this is the case right now (it might be but I'm not going to push it), I am just saying it for future reference. I think a lot of people are hesitant to shake things up too considerably, so when we have a shake up forcibly handed to us with DLC, that may be the right time to do it. The council did a good job re-testing a lot of UUBL last month, and re-introducing Mamoswine, but I don't think it goes far enough to re-test things one, two, or three at a time. If too many things end up on the chopping block, including Jirachi, AND more things get sent down to UU, I think the right move would be to re-test en masse before suspecting anything else.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

I plan on getting reqs if I have the time, and I’ll be voting ban on Jirachi.

Ever since its introduction to the tier, I’ve wanted Jirachi gone, but I think it’s only gotten worse since then. Everyone knows what it does and it’s insane how easily it fits on every team because it can run just about every set:

- Scarf with HW + Trick support
- CM on Webs
- SR + TWave / Body Slam
- SR Mixed
- Toxic + Sub/Tect
- Wish

And when paired with Serene Grace and its amazing natural bulk + speed, all of these sets are just way too much of a nuisance to deal with. Our Dark-types are all outsped and lose to it. All the potentially faster mons (Terrak, Cobal, Noiv, Lycan, Starmie) can lose to it. Jirachi is really just extremely uncompetitive at its roots and there’s absolutely no drawbacks from having it on your team. I think Adam’s post was excellent in highlighting its versatility and I don’t wanna regurgitate too much, but the fact that it’s getting about 80% usage and winning games by itself is absurd. Ban it.

 

[Moutemoute]

For those who dreamed to see a Jirachi flinched 14 times in a row a Pokemon..​

 

[Bad feeling]

For those who dreamed to see a Jirachi flinched 14 times in a row a Pokemon..​

Nice try to disguise a 0,08% probability as a fun video on a thread with arguments to keep jirachi or not. I'm sure this video doesn't trigger confirmation biais. We are traumatised one time by iron flinch then we seem to be led by our trauma for this suspect. We have to remember basic math and mechanics.
1 flinche: 60% vs 2 stones edges in a row: 64%
2 flinches: 36% vs 3 stones edges in a row: 51%
3 flinches: 21% vs 4 stones edges in a row: 41%
4 flinches: 12% vs 5 stones edges in a row: 33%

We know how hard is hitting 2 stones edges in row,

I listed for you common checks and counters and no weird pokemon like Shedinja (but damn he is good to deal with jirachi).

Counters:

Hard Checks:

(restalk)

(restalk roar bar CM Aurasphere)

(bar fire punch)

(bar CM shadowball)

(bar fire/fighting move)

Checks:
-Physical jirachi:

-Mixed support Jirachi:

-Special Jirachi:

(perish song or cm/leech seed variants)

(av only)

(bar energy ball)

(its sucks)

(bar shadow ball)

Subtoxic:

(bar drain/fire punch)

(bar drain punch)

RK:

(scarf)

Even with Jirachi versatility we have a diversity of choice to deal with him pretty well, Lucks factors is a thing but we overwhelming flinch's rates and they're not too big or stone edge is an accurately move. We have more chance to hits 2 stones edges than flinch one time with jirachi. We have to conclude two things here, use more stone edge and jirachi is not ban worthy.

#teamjirachi

ps: i don't answer about the tricky trick argument, all pokemon with trick have virtually no counter.

 

[hs]

nice post didn't read

 

[ORAS-Mega]

I think overall from what I see about jirachi is that it's high risk, high reward. You benefit greatly from having it on your team *if its the right set*. That logic applies to every mon though, but with rachi, the right set doesn't have to be anything too specific. A wide variety of them can deal damage and can be considered the "right set".

After consideration, I'm seeing similarities between this and scizor from gen 7. Yes, it's everywhere, and its teetering the overwhelming line, but it has checks and counters. Missing a 6th mon? Throw in a scizor, that's pretty much rachi right now in this generation. BUT THE KEY DIFFERENCE IS THAT YOU KNEW FOR THE MOST PART WHAT SCIZOR WAS GONNA DO. That's not the case for jirachi, or to a much lesser extent. Because of that, you have a few good turns really to figure out what set the rachi is. It may cost a few mons as well in the process. The earlier you find out, the better.

And don't forget the team support that rachi will obviously have with it, making it a lot harder for these counters and checks and revenge killers to do their thing. Overall, I'm still leaning towards pro ban, but if its going to be treated like scizor from gen 7, where its just a mon that you should have an answer for, then i guess it can stay. Just good luck picking the right answer for it. Thanks to Bad feeling I can see the list and the good news is that the right answer for jirachi is also something thats usually quite viable in the meta. So I can see how its not as overwhelming as it could be.

 

[Moutemoute]

tl;dr to quote

I already made a serious post just above so I don't get what you mean. The purpose of the video was obviously a fun purpose, but I guess it wasn't clear enough. I'll write in bold next time

 

[pokemonisfun]

Nice try to disguise a 0,08% probability as a fun video on a thread with arguments to keep jirachi or not. I'm sure this video doesn't trigger confirmation biais. We are traumatised one time by iron flinch then we seem to be led by our trauma for this suspect. We have to remember basic math and mechanics.
1 flinche: 60% vs 2 stones edges in a row: 64%
2 flinches: 36% vs 3 stones edges in a row: 51%
3 flinches: 21% vs 4 stones edges in a row: 64%
4 flinches: 12% vs 5 stones edges in a row: 33%

We know how hard is hitting 2 stones edges in row,

I listed for you common checks and counters and no weird pokemon like Shedinja (but damn he is good to deal with jirachi).

Counters:

Hard Checks:

(restalk)

(restalk roar bar CM Aurasphere)

(bar fire punch)

(bar CM shadowball)

(bar fire/fighting move)

Checks:
-Physical jirachi:

-Mixed support Jirachi:

-Special Jirachi:

(perish song or cm/leech seed variants)

(av only)

(bar energy ball)

(its sucks)

(bar shadow ball)

Subtoxic:

(bar drain/fire punch)

(bar drain punch)

RK:

(scarf)

Even with Jirachi versatility we have a diversity of choice to deal with him pretty well, Lucks factors is a thing but we overwhelming flinch's rates and they're not too big or stone edge is an accurately move. We have more chance to hits 2 stones edges than flinch one time with jirachi. We have to conclude two things here, use more stone edge and jirachi is not ban worthy.

#teamjirachi

ps: i don't answer about the tricky trick argument, all pokemon with trick have virtually no counter.

I appreciate the time you put into this post and I know you’re a fine player since I’ve seen you play and innovate. I know it’s frustrating to see people put videos that don’t really contribute to the discussion, so thank you for actually trying to engage in thoughtful arguments. Two things about your list:

1. Your hard counters are pretty mediocre Pokemon in their own right. Umbreon and Steelix are definitely viable, but still stuck in the B and C ranks, they have big issues letting in common Pokemon like Keldeo in and it’s hard to use these mons outside of full stall. Stuff like Bisharp which is also hard to counter isn’t commonly thought as broken (it might be though) because it’s counters are top tier Pokemon already like Cobalion and Keldeo.
2. The fact that Jirachi has so many sets means a counter to one set might get demolished by another, your list actually reflects that, for example, Skarmory which can counter some purely physical sets is actually **countered** by nearly any Special Jirachi.