Thats alot of why slowing got band from Ru in the first place and this is a really interesting take on this whole thing.
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★ np: SS UU Stage 8.3 - Rack City
- Thread starter kumiko
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This is an interesting point for sure but as anti rak I wanted to stress that Teleport is not the only way to support Terrakion. Things like para support in addition to standard volturn are valid, albeit less conventional, routes. I think it is rather easy to dismiss Slowking as the root of the problem even post Latias with the fact that it can only take hits super well on the special side which is great for answering most Victini, but not so much for the S rank furry. We also have plenty of Knock Off users to fit onto teams to make Regen switching a bit less free. Even without Teleport Terrakion has the natural bulk to hard into pokemon like special Salamence and Victini once anyway. Not gonna bother with an entire wall of text since everything has been covered really.
I made this team with the idea of punching holes throughout with voltturn support, and then cleaning up under Tailwind at the end. IP and others already went pretty in-depth on how you need to just get a couple turns right to break through most teams but I wanted to provide some replays where Terrakion does not have the security of Teleport.
against palo ditto amoon skarm
counterplay is nidoq, king, and scarf Zarude
from tour night finals, against multiple priority users, zam, and tangrowth
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I usually avoid the back and forth of these threads for various reasons, one of them being my tendency to be long-winded, but given this came up now, I'll try to be brief for once--for me anyway. Apologies in advance.
While Clefable (the user) does have a point about how abusive Slowking is with Terrakion, I still feel like deflecting attention to Slowking (which I won't say is their actual intent) misses the point here, especially since the third ending paragraph implies that it's either Terrakion or Slowking's family that's potentially the problem when it could very well be both.
Going a bit further with how I think bringing this up somewhat misses the point is the fact if there's one thing I've seen people universally agree on over the years here and on PS, then it's that pretty much everyone thinks Regenerator as it currently functions is stupidly obnoxious in the amount it heals. I have literally never seen anyone say that 33% HP to heal is a fair amount beyond it just being what's in the game as it is, even the people who tend to play Stall and love that still-missing abomination Alomomola, and H-D Boots existing and Pursuit not existing have only made Regenerator even more degenerate. Slowking is one of the most degenerate Regenerator mon in the entire game in part because it's the perfect storm of having Regenerator, a pivot move in Teleport, and access to STAB Future Sight on top of access to H-D Boots, good bulk, good typing, a great move pool, and a Pursuit-free meta.
While all of that perhaps means that maybe Slowking is something (else) that should be examined after this, it still basically ignores the fact that of the Terrakion & Slowking duo, Slowking isn't the one that basically OHKOs and 2HKOs every mon unfortunate to be on the other side of the field from it. Slowking as a partner merely exacerbates how difficult Terrakion already is to switch into for anything not named Palossand (which as much as I like it, is bad in this current meta) and is not the cause of it, especially since there are other Future Sight users (and Doom Desire Jirachi) anyway. It's just that other Future Sight users don't get used because Slowking tends to outclass them all due to how braindead easy it is to throw on a team--thanks Regenerator.
That said, even if Slowking was immediately erased from the tier during this suspect test, Terrakion would still basically maul everything anyway, which is the actual reason it's on the chopping block right now rather than just being able abuse Future Sight really well.
I'm pro-ban if it's not already crystal clear which side I'm presently for, and it would take me a lot to convince me otherwise that Terrakion is actually healthy, especially since I think I publicly said it should have gone back when it first came up for a ban even when Hippo and Latias were still here even as someone who used Hippo a lot. Personally, I think a large part of the reason that Terrakion is so much more obnoxious this gen is due to how stupidly it is easy to put pivoting moves onto any team now that five of them exist in this gen, especially with Teleport as good as it is.
Sure, Terrakion has a difficult time just doing a hard switch in because Rock/Fighting is a rather "meh" defensive typing at best in most games, but a lot of the time, Terrakion doesn't have to in addition to all that it forces out with the threat of immediate OHKO. Terrakion and a lot of the other offensive mons in the meta generally get to pivot in rather safely in this meta via U-Turn, Volt Switch, Flip Turn, and/or especially Teleport--I'm ignoring Parting Shot since all its users are below UU at this point--except against maybe all but the most hyper offensive of teams.
All of that blathered, I will admit that I don't think Terrakion is the actual #1 problem with UU's meta right now, but it's definitely up there (#3 at worst to me). So I definitely wouldn't be sad to see it gone given how much it constrains building teams when it comes to stuff that can actually switch into it, which is basically nothing, rather than just revenge it. If it was as slow as Crawdaunt or Azumarill are, then I actually would probably be fine with it, but having that much power with that much speed and decent bulk just seems like it's been too much for this tier for too long. [/not actually brief]
While Clefable (the user) does have a point about how abusive Slowking is with Terrakion, I still feel like deflecting attention to Slowking (which I won't say is their actual intent) misses the point here, especially since the third ending paragraph implies that it's either Terrakion or Slowking's family that's potentially the problem when it could very well be both.
Going a bit further with how I think bringing this up somewhat misses the point is the fact if there's one thing I've seen people universally agree on over the years here and on PS, then it's that pretty much everyone thinks Regenerator as it currently functions is stupidly obnoxious in the amount it heals. I have literally never seen anyone say that 33% HP to heal is a fair amount beyond it just being what's in the game as it is, even the people who tend to play Stall and love that still-missing abomination Alomomola, and H-D Boots existing and Pursuit not existing have only made Regenerator even more degenerate. Slowking is one of the most degenerate Regenerator mon in the entire game in part because it's the perfect storm of having Regenerator, a pivot move in Teleport, and access to STAB Future Sight on top of access to H-D Boots, good bulk, good typing, a great move pool, and a Pursuit-free meta.
While all of that perhaps means that maybe Slowking is something (else) that should be examined after this, it still basically ignores the fact that of the Terrakion & Slowking duo, Slowking isn't the one that basically OHKOs and 2HKOs every mon unfortunate to be on the other side of the field from it. Slowking as a partner merely exacerbates how difficult Terrakion already is to switch into for anything not named Palossand (which as much as I like it, is bad in this current meta) and is not the cause of it, especially since there are other Future Sight users (and Doom Desire Jirachi) anyway. It's just that other Future Sight users don't get used because Slowking tends to outclass them all due to how braindead easy it is to throw on a team--thanks Regenerator.
That said, even if Slowking was immediately erased from the tier during this suspect test, Terrakion would still basically maul everything anyway, which is the actual reason it's on the chopping block right now rather than just being able abuse Future Sight really well.
I'm pro-ban if it's not already crystal clear which side I'm presently for, and it would take me a lot to convince me otherwise that Terrakion is actually healthy, especially since I think I publicly said it should have gone back when it first came up for a ban even when Hippo and Latias were still here even as someone who used Hippo a lot. Personally, I think a large part of the reason that Terrakion is so much more obnoxious this gen is due to how stupidly it is easy to put pivoting moves onto any team now that five of them exist in this gen, especially with Teleport as good as it is.
Sure, Terrakion has a difficult time just doing a hard switch in because Rock/Fighting is a rather "meh" defensive typing at best in most games, but a lot of the time, Terrakion doesn't have to in addition to all that it forces out with the threat of immediate OHKO. Terrakion and a lot of the other offensive mons in the meta generally get to pivot in rather safely in this meta via U-Turn, Volt Switch, Flip Turn, and/or especially Teleport--I'm ignoring Parting Shot since all its users are below UU at this point--except against maybe all but the most hyper offensive of teams.
All of that blathered, I will admit that I don't think Terrakion is the actual #1 problem with UU's meta right now, but it's definitely up there (#3 at worst to me). So I definitely wouldn't be sad to see it gone given how much it constrains building teams when it comes to stuff that can actually switch into it, which is basically nothing, rather than just revenge it. If it was as slow as Crawdaunt or Azumarill are, then I actually would probably be fine with it, but having that much power with that much speed and decent bulk just seems like it's been too much for this tier for too long. [/not actually brief]
you are so smart mengy
so here's a bit of a complication in my eyes -- it looks pretty likely at this point from the discussions I've seen that slowking is leaving the tier due to OU usage.
generally speaking, i agree with avarice that terrakion doesn't /NEED/ slowking to be viable or break through its answers, but I think it's pretty uncontroversial to say that slowbro as a teleport user makes terrakion a lot more consistent and brainless. there are slow u-turn / volt switch replacements and other ways of achieving the same effect, of course, but having a teleport effect that's guaranteed to go last, paired with the potential to future sight stack, is a major factor into what's making terrakion feel as oppressive as it is.
for the record, i was firmly team terrak ban before finding out that slowking was probably leaving the tier -- i know it's speculative so it seems questionable to base tiering decisions off of it, and there's not much we can do in the way of a conditional test or a retest, but I genuinely think that a tier without slowbro means terrakion is just good, but not broken.
finally, a quick general note -- I think something that bothers me a little bit about many pro-ban arguments is that they essentially seem structured around the idea that "terrakion is really good at breaking through bulky, defensive cores and walls" when that's... literally the reason people run terrakion and the role it's meant to fill. to be clear on what i mean -- terrakion is a wallbreaker. when I see a replay of a terrakion user correctly predicting and 2hkoing an amoonguss, or hitting a slowking with a megahorn on the switch, it's hard for me to make the jump to "that's oppressive and banworthy" -- it more just seems like it's fulfilling the role it was designed to fit on your team. to me, those replays read the same as, say, a replay of zeraora outspeeding things, or scizor revenge killing with bullet punch, or chansey walling special attacks. if terrakion couldn't break through most defensive cores with some chip damage and support and proper prediction, it wouldn't just not be broken, it'd barely be viable -- that's literally its role.
the problem comes when it achieves its role in a way that's mindless, consistent, difficult to counter, etc -- with slowking support, terrakion definitely reaches that threshold for me. future sight and teleport both add support that takes it from "good wallbreaker" to broken, but without slowking, I don't think it'd extend past the role of a "good wallbreaker".
if this whole post is too speculative and it's not fair to judge based on potential future drops and rises, feel free to ignore -- but it seems super relevant given how likely and soon it is.
edit: fucked up the tiering shift dates in my head so the speculation is less pressing than I thought and also not a good idea in general but the rest of the post still applies x
generally speaking, i agree with avarice that terrakion doesn't /NEED/ slowking to be viable or break through its answers, but I think it's pretty uncontroversial to say that slowbro as a teleport user makes terrakion a lot more consistent and brainless. there are slow u-turn / volt switch replacements and other ways of achieving the same effect, of course, but having a teleport effect that's guaranteed to go last, paired with the potential to future sight stack, is a major factor into what's making terrakion feel as oppressive as it is.
for the record, i was firmly team terrak ban before finding out that slowking was probably leaving the tier -- i know it's speculative so it seems questionable to base tiering decisions off of it, and there's not much we can do in the way of a conditional test or a retest, but I genuinely think that a tier without slowbro means terrakion is just good, but not broken.
finally, a quick general note -- I think something that bothers me a little bit about many pro-ban arguments is that they essentially seem structured around the idea that "terrakion is really good at breaking through bulky, defensive cores and walls" when that's... literally the reason people run terrakion and the role it's meant to fill. to be clear on what i mean -- terrakion is a wallbreaker. when I see a replay of a terrakion user correctly predicting and 2hkoing an amoonguss, or hitting a slowking with a megahorn on the switch, it's hard for me to make the jump to "that's oppressive and banworthy" -- it more just seems like it's fulfilling the role it was designed to fit on your team. to me, those replays read the same as, say, a replay of zeraora outspeeding things, or scizor revenge killing with bullet punch, or chansey walling special attacks. if terrakion couldn't break through most defensive cores with some chip damage and support and proper prediction, it wouldn't just not be broken, it'd barely be viable -- that's literally its role.
the problem comes when it achieves its role in a way that's mindless, consistent, difficult to counter, etc -- with slowking support, terrakion definitely reaches that threshold for me. future sight and teleport both add support that takes it from "good wallbreaker" to broken, but without slowking, I don't think it'd extend past the role of a "good wallbreaker".
if this whole post is too speculative and it's not fair to judge based on potential future drops and rises, feel free to ignore -- but it seems super relevant given how likely and soon it is.
edit: fucked up the tiering shift dates in my head so the speculation is less pressing than I thought and also not a good idea in general but the rest of the post still applies x
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This is purely speculation, but assuming the above post is true with slowking leaving the tier (even though I don’t want it to) and terrakion’s breaking potential is limited to the point it is not banworthy without it, would a retest happen assuming terrak gets banned even if it’s like a month or two later? I get it would seem weird to retest something a month or two after it can get banned, but if terrak wouldn’t be broken shouldn’t it be able to be reintroduced into the meta? Also, to solve this issue, I think it’s important for the pro ban side to demonstrate terrakion’s effectiveness without king to look long term on whether it would be busted or not.
The council typically does not base any decisions or give any sort of implication on what they will do in the future based on speculation, so I don't think this is something they can answer.
As a sidenote - we will almost assuredly get Buzzwole in April, or even in March if we are lucky (probably not March, but def April). It's another Rak answer but still has issues with the Slowking Future Sight/Rak core.
All of this aside, I already gave my points on why I'm voting no ban, and it has nothing to do with speculative drops/rises - I just think Terrakion is fine right now with what's here for the reasons previously stated. I am pretty sure someone else is going to come around and yell at everyone for basing decisions on speculation tho (waiting for it).
For what it's worth, votes should not be influenced at all by what we might or might not end up with. As it stands, if we were to lose Slowking then we do lose Terrakion's best partner, but we also lose a bulky Fighting resist. If we lose Skarmory we lose a check, if we lose Kyurem we lose a Pokemon Terrakion takes advantage of. If we gain Buzzwole we gain a check, if we gain Moltres we gain another Pokemon Terrakion takes advantage of. This meta is entirely unpredictable.
If we're ever in a position where Terrakion is palatable again, it will most certainly be considered for a retest (assuming it gets banned in the first place). That said, our focus should be on tiering now, not based on what could be.
Regarding the Slowking discussion brought up by Mengy, yes, it's brainless, but as mentioned by avarice it's completely unnecessary to make Terrakion overpowered. Kitten Milk also brings up a good point about Terrakion being good at its role as a wallbreaker and yea ofc, that's what it's supposed to do - the issue there is that its Speed tier also decimates offense staples like Salamence and Victini which are by no means slow, and that it's also very bulky on top of that so it's not like there's much of a tradeoff as opposed to other pure breakers like Lycanroc-D.
Anyway I'm very glad to see discussion on this and I encourage you guys to continue. Just wanted to make it clear, do not vote based on what the meta may or may not be like over a month from now! Thank you and happy posting (:
If we're ever in a position where Terrakion is palatable again, it will most certainly be considered for a retest (assuming it gets banned in the first place). That said, our focus should be on tiering now, not based on what could be.
Regarding the Slowking discussion brought up by Mengy, yes, it's brainless, but as mentioned by avarice it's completely unnecessary to make Terrakion overpowered. Kitten Milk also brings up a good point about Terrakion being good at its role as a wallbreaker and yea ofc, that's what it's supposed to do - the issue there is that its Speed tier also decimates offense staples like Salamence and Victini which are by no means slow, and that it's also very bulky on top of that so it's not like there's much of a tradeoff as opposed to other pure breakers like Lycanroc-D.
Anyway I'm very glad to see discussion on this and I encourage you guys to continue. Just wanted to make it clear, do not vote based on what the meta may or may not be like over a month from now! Thank you and happy posting (:
I think it's pretty clear that we shouldn't be making tiering decisions right now off of *potential* drops and rises in over a months time. While stuff like a Buzzwole drop and a Slowking rise could well make Terrakion a lot more healthy in the tier, decisions on how you vote in this suspect should be made based on how you currently feel about Terrakion in the tier right now.
This is especially noticeable when you consider that we'll have nearly a whole month before these drops take effect, and a major tour starting soon that we don't want an unhealthy element in for the duration of time until the shifts take effect.
Edit - Lily sniped
This is especially noticeable when you consider that we'll have nearly a whole month before these drops take effect, and a major tour starting soon that we don't want an unhealthy element in for the duration of time until the shifts take effect.
Edit - Lily sniped
I know that Lilburr and Esta have kind of put a stop to the theorizing, but I've been spending ten minutes writing this post, so I might as well get it out there.
I think that Terrakion will actually get more broken if Slowking leaves. Sure, it can no longer enter freely via Teleport,, but it also loses one of its biggest defensive checks. Losing Slowking would mean that Terrakion has one less reason to run Megahorn, which paves the way for Swords Dance/Life Orb sets becoming more common. And IMO, Swords Dance/Life Orb Terrakion is a much scarier threat. Just look at these calcs:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 191-225 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Palossand is CB Terrakion's best counter, by the way.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 261-308 (64.6 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Giga Drain recovery? Thrown out the window.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 265-315 (82.2 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Another one of CB Terrakion's best checks nearly getting one-shot by SD/LO Terrakion.
Terrakion is already broken as it is, and some of you guys are considering keeping it over a hypothetical (it's very likely, but until it happens, it's still hypothetical) rise that will happen in a whole month?!
Yeah, no. Send this shit to UUBL ASAP, and keep it there.
I think that Terrakion will actually get more broken if Slowking leaves. Sure, it can no longer enter freely via Teleport,, but it also loses one of its biggest defensive checks. Losing Slowking would mean that Terrakion has one less reason to run Megahorn, which paves the way for Swords Dance/Life Orb sets becoming more common. And IMO, Swords Dance/Life Orb Terrakion is a much scarier threat. Just look at these calcs:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 191-225 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Palossand is CB Terrakion's best counter, by the way.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 261-308 (64.6 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Giga Drain recovery? Thrown out the window.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 265-315 (82.2 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Another one of CB Terrakion's best checks nearly getting one-shot by SD/LO Terrakion.
Terrakion is already broken as it is, and some of you guys are considering keeping it over a hypothetical (it's very likely, but until it happens, it's still hypothetical) rise that will happen in a whole month?!
Yeah, no. Send this shit to UUBL ASAP, and keep it there.
Now that I've gotten my reqs and am not in danger of dying of hypothermia anymore (just a stroke from playing on this garbage ladder), I might as well make a long, rambling post about both Terrakion specifically and the meta in a more general sense.
To start with, I don't really agree with this fixation on Slowking as the enabling factor for Terrakion. Yes, it's the best pivot available, but that doesn't mean you can't just U-turn/Volt Switch in with the many other pivots in the tier, most of which have at least one common check that Terrakion can take advantage of (Salamence, Victini, Rotom-H, Chansey, etc.), support it with paralysis, or even just use a double switch to get it in. On top of that, 91/90/90 defensive stats aren't exactly fragile and it's still beefy enough to come in on 1/2 neutral/resisted attacks per game without any support at all and live most priority moves (Conkeldurr and Azumarill don't KO from full and Scizor needs a Life Orb to guarantee the KO; it survives stuff like Victini's Psychic, any unboosted move from Salamence, Hurricane from Moltres-Galar, Hydro Pum from Rotom-Wash from full and has around a 20% chance to live things like Gyarados Waterfall and Zeraora Close Combat), to say nothing of its ability to tank one Scald/Giga Drain/whatever from defensive Pokemon like Amoonguss, Tangrowth, and Slowking at need. When you combine that with the fact that there are only maybe 4-5 commonly seen Pokemon in the tier that actually outspeed it, it doesn't exactly need to be a defensive powerhouse.
Other than that, I don't have much to say about Terrakion specifically, since previous posters have done a good job talking about its ability to click buttons and kill things, so I'll just do something that I don't see people really do anymore: post analysis of tournament games. I'll use my games from LTPL to start with, but I'm open to talking about my UU Masters games or trying to analyze someone else's games if there's enough demand for that. I only played in 4 weeks, so this hopefully won't drag on for too long.
Week 3 vs. Ajna: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1259285415
Team: https://pokepast.es/8e3e22062beb1fd5
I hadn't really built SS UU since the very beginning of UU Snake at this point, so I just started by slapping together 2 brokens (Latias + Terrakion) and then filling out the rest of the team in ways that let me play around the meta. Celesteela is an excellent defensive Pokemon and let me pretend it was possible to switch into Latias. Tentacruel punished Celesteela for trying to spam Leech Seed, cleared hazards, checked a few other things, and so on. Tapu Bulu was meant to put pressure on stuff that checked Latias and Terrakion while also providing useful typing and a little bit of recovery for the rest of the team. I gave it Zen Headbutt to remove Amoonguss/defensive Kommo-o and used Stone Edge to maintain neutral coverage on as many things as possible. Krookodile offered Intimidate, useful typing, and revenge-killing capacity. I probably could've put Stealth Rock on Krookodile instead of Terrakion, but I never ended up in a situation where I would've wanted to click Stealth Rock with either of them during the game, so ultimately it didn't matter. I don't think Close Combat was strictly necessary on Krookodile, so maybe dropping that would've been better.
I led Latias here because it threatens anything he could open up with to try to grab momentum and I can easily switch into his two possible answers. I went ahead and clicked Mystical Fire because going to Jirachi on the Draco Meteor seemed like the obvious response and I didn't think he'd be gutsy enough to stay in to try to status, especially since Rotom-Wash had the potential to be useful vs. everything but Latias with the right moves in its last two slots. The Mystical Fire damage let me know the Jirachi was offensive, so I switched out to scout for Choice Scarf. The fact that Ajna switched out told me that his Jirachi wasn't Choice Scarf, so I felt like Latias was in a very good position at this point and wanted to build my gameplan around getting it in and dropping Draco Meteors more or less for free. I also got to kill the Jirachi a few turns later.
On turn 7, I switched Latias out because I didn't want to feed it to a crocodile and thought I could get an opportunity to remove Amoonguss or Kommo-o with +2 Zen Headbutt. While my game plan mostly revolved around Latias at this point, I was still thinking of how I could open up lategame opportunities for Terrakion, so getting one of those two out of the way would've been helpful. Instead, Tapu Bulu missed Zen Headbutt, took a Sludge Bomb to the face, and died without accomplishing anything. The less said about the ability, the better. I blame Showdown for that one. At least Tapu Bulu's noble sacrifice/crippling incompetence gave me a free Latias switch.
I switched out of Victini because I still wasn't 100% sure whether Victini or Krookodile was the Scarfer, but Ajna played it the same way he did his Jirachi, so after that turn I was pretty confident that Krookodile was the Scarfer. Up until about turn 20, I just clicked Draco Meteor whenever I got the chance and chunked a couple of his Pokemon. I got a Sludge Bomb poison that limited his ability to try to double with Rotom-Wash, but I'm not sure how much that mattered since I could've still traded out the Tentacruel to click Draco Meteor brainlessly again. From there I just played around his Krookodile a bit until he was able to get his Kommo-o in. Maybe I should've stayed in with my Terrakion to prevent Kommo-o from setting up, but I didn't think Ajna would take the risk there and he ended up switching to Amoonguss instead. Once Krookodile and Kommo-o were on the field at the same time, I had to just go for it so that Clangorous Soul didn't just sweep me, since I was definitely vulnerable to it at that point. It probably would've been smarter to fodder something so that I could revenge kill it with Close Combat instead of risking a High Horsepower miss, but I think I was afraid of Drain Punch or something. From there, I just had to close it out.
Week 4 vs. Bushtush: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-536339
Team: https://pokepast.es/e6156d2654e29747
I didn't really do specific prep this tour and instead just built stuff that seemed fun to play. Latias wasn't any less broken this week than it was the previous week, but I switched it up by using Choice Specs instead. Thunderbolt was for Slowking and better damage on Celesteela, Azumarill, and Primarina, but one Draco Meteor meant Slowking wasn't a check anymore anyway, so I probably could've just slapped Sleep Talk or Trick or something on there instead. Indigo Plateau's waifu gave me a way to get Latias in on stuff like Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Kommo-o, and Salamence via Volt Switch while also giving me some speed control. I chose Blaze Kick and Play Rough as the coverage to deal with Scizor and Kommo-o more effectively. Zarude served as the obligatory revenge killer and also let me get Latias in on stuff it could threaten. I ran Close Combat over Jungle Healing to revenge weakened Kommo-o. Primarina gave me some extra breaking power and let me remove the fat Grass-types for Zarude and Zeraora just in case threatening them with Latias wasn't enough. I've seen a lot of people be skeptical of this set, and I understand why, so I'll talk about it in a little more detail here. The goal is to remove Amoonguss (and Tangrowth and Tentacruel to a lesser extent), hence the Psychic/Life Orb combo. A boosting item is necessary to KO Amoonguss and Tentacruel at +1. Expert Belt generates similar results, but the roll on Tentacruel is worse and you need Stealth Rock to 2HKO Assault Vest Tangrowth. Considering how heavily people leaned on the fat Grass-types (and how much they continue to do so), I think this set is a nice partner to anything that wants them removed. Nidoqueen/Celesteela provided Stealth Rock and some defensive value to the team.
I played out the first turn the same way as last game for the same reason, only this time I learned that the Jirachi was fat. On turn 8, I was able to get Jirachi in on Tangrowth and clicked Draco Meteor on the assumption that he wouldn't switch Jirachi into a potential Mystical Fire. I was right, crit the Suicune, and opened up a path for Celesteela to potentially win if I played it right. Primarina ultimately didn't get the chance to do anything this game because I left it in on a Jirachi instead of just going to Zeraora or Celesteela and the Jirachi did Jirachi things, so that was a mistake on my end.
I got a Flamethrower burn on Tangrowth that helped offset Regenerator healing somewhat throughout the game and then burned the Krookodile immediately afterward, which meant that Celesteela stood a very good chance of just outlasting everything if I could wear his team down a little more. I used his burned Krookodile to get Zarude in, which set up a double to Latias. I got Latias in a couple more times over the next 10 turns, but guessed wrong each time and ended up losing it without accomplishing much. I really should've trusted my instincts a bit more there, but I wasn't too worried because I'd been thinking of Celesteela as my victory condition ever since the Suicune died. Once Celesteela got one kill, it just kind of snowballed as long as I could get enough health back through Leech Seed, so I was able to close it out without difficulty. I got a bit lucky early, so it's hard to tell what might've happened otherwise, but I definitely think I messed up by not respecting Serene Grace enough. Guessing right with Latias didn't matter too much in the long run, but I'm annoyed with myself for not listening to my instincts.
Week 5 vs. Ramolost: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1268286448-mp91u1wv4c885dlphyand3gywcbossdpw
Team: https://pokepast.es/439f7d8f296104f2
I wanted to change things up this week instead of just using Latias, Celesteela, and 4 filler Pokemon, so I diversified my builds through the highly creative strategy of using a different Dragon-type, a different Steel-type, and a different Water-type, because I am old and don't like change, now get off my lawn. I saw Adaam post about Zarude and Chandelure, so I decided to start there. I ran Trick on Chandelure in case I got stalled, but Sleep Talk is just fine too. Zarude can get Chandelure in on the fat Grass-types and let it blow things up. I added Slowking to pivot Chandelure in, Nidoqueen for the usual Nidoqueen things, Scizor because I could pretend I had covered Latias between Slowking and Zarude and therefore could run a Steel-type that died to Mystical Fire, and Salamence because it fit in the slot. I hadn't decided on sets for these two at the time and was originally considering Swords Dance Scizor and the standard 3 attacks Special Salamence, but I decided on Dragon Dance because I wanted something that could really take advantage of Chandelure roasting things while also posing a threat itself and also I really love Salamence. I consider Life Orb mandatory on Salamence because you don't do enough damage otherwise and I build my Dragon Dance Salamence teams with the goal of bringing Salamence in once or twice, finding an opportunity to set up, and either ending the game right there or weakening the opposing team enough for something else to clean up. The Stealth Rock weakness doesn't matter as much when Salemence is only supposed to come in once, take 25% + whatever it needs to tank to set up, and get 2-4 kills before dying to Life Orb recoil. This philosophy is why High Impulse's game in week 1 of UU Snake caused me actual brain damage and sent me spiraling into tilt that lasted for an entire season. I slapped Defog on Scizor because both Salamence and Chandelure were weak to Stealth Rock, which isn't a great trait in my primary offensive weapons. I truly hate wasting slots on offensive threats on hazard control, but it fit here. I can't remember what the defensive investment did, but it was important for something. Safety Goggles let it switch into Amoonguss, but Sleep Talk on Chandelure might've been better to free up another item, especially since I didn't get stalled.
I led with Salamence here because the worst case scenario was that I traded evenly by chunking 2 Pokemon for around 50% each as he tried to switch around. I kind of wish I'd had the guts to Dragon Dance here, but I just clicked Outrage to guarantee that something died and protect myself against a potential attempt to stay in. I ended up getting a kill and a half, but I failed to capitalize on it later and a 3-turn Outrage cost me the chance to try again later. From there, we just traded Stealth Rock and Slowking Teleports until turn 9, where I wimped out and tried to Bullet Punch the Nidoqueen instead of listening to my instincts and either switching out to Chandelure or just clicking Knock Off on the incoming Magnezone. Removing the Magnet still would've left me with a weakened Scizor, but I still could've come in once or twice more to force out the Kyurem or potentially heal up on the Slowking. The high Thunderbolt roll sucked because it meant I died to hazards, but it's my fault for not playing around the Magnezone more intelligently to begin with.
Once Scizor went down, I'd pretty much lost my ways of dealing with Kyurem unless he decided to fodder it to Zarude for some reason. Maybe I could've gone to Zarude on turn 15 and tried to grab momentum somehow there or tried to put Kyurem in range of a Darkest Lariat crit.
Week 6 vs. PinkDragonTamer: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-540061
Team: https://pokepast.es/24af43232c86032f
This team was kind of similar to my week 4 team. I brought broken Latias because it was broken and Zeraora and Primarina served similar purposes to their week 4 incarnations, but I diverged a bit from there. I was tired of defensive Steel-type or Slowking + Choice Scarf Dark-type being the Latias counterplay, so I started looking for something unusual that could serve as a defensive check without being Chansey, because only scum use that Pokemon. Moltres-Galar stood out with that sick 90/125 Special bulk, so I started playing around with calcs and ended up liking it more than I expected to. The defensive investment allows it to survive 2 Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteors from full, while the speed outpaces Timid Nidoqueen. The original spread, which I used for the LTPL game, had less Speed investment in exchange for a little more Special Attack. I went with a simple RestTalk 2 attacks set because I really just wanted Moltres-Galar to serve as a special tank and running Fiery Wrath alone would have left me walled by too much. I chose Hurricane over Air Slash because the damage differential is huge, especially since I'm not running offensive investment, and I already had a reliable STAB in Fiery Wrath. This set also serves as a decent stallbreaker thanks to Berserk, since you can set up on Chansey, Rest off the Toxic or other damage, and then fish for Hurricane confusion and Fiery Wrath flinches like a skilled player, especially since nothing but Chansey on most common stall teams really wants to deal with a +2/3/whatever Moltres-Galar. Scizor gave me some revenge killing ability and another threat/wincon. Between Scizor, Zeraora, and my defensive backbone, I felt willing to forego a Choice Scarfer. Rhyperior finished out the team by providing Stealth Rock, a nice Flying resist, a Zeraora check, and so on and so forth. The Speed creeps defensive Celesteela and uninvested base 55s, athough I don't remember why I cared about the latter. Heat Crash bonks the fat Grasses, Celesteela, Skarmory, Scizor, etc. The Zeraora set is a little unorthodox, but I decided that anything I'd Volt Switch on would probably just recover the HP with Regenerator anyway, so I tried to make Zeraora more of a breaker than a pivot. A boosting item is actually really nice on Zeraora because suddenly you do actual damage instead of barely failing to KO things you hit super effectively. It could probably have been Jolly to give me a better shot vs. opposing Zeraora, but then I would've run into the damage problem again. 8 Defense on Primarina lets it survive something, but I don't remember what and don't care enough to figure it out right now. It's late and I need to go to bed so I can wake up tomorrow, watch Fox News, yell at the neighborhood kids for having too much fun, post angrily on Facebook about how the younger generation is ruining the world, and still make it to Red Robin in time for the senior buffet.
I started off by getting the lead wrong. Leading with the Dragon-type 4 weeks in a row probably wasn't the best decision, but change takes energy I don't have. In retrospect, Primarina or Zeraora probably would've been better lead options. I spent 3 turns trying and failing to play around the Azumarill I had no actual answer to (bringing that was a smart choice vs. me since I rarely use Tangrowth/Amoonguss, so props to him for that) and then getting crit on turn 4, which meant I had a lot less freedom with my Latias. PinkDragonTamer had the option of staying in to punish a potential Roost or of switching into something else, and I needed to pick which one I thought he'd do and commit to it, which meant Roosting, trying to kill the Nidoqueen, or switching out to something that let me take back control of the game. Instead, I tilted, tried to catch a Celesteela I wasn't beating anyway (I was assuming it was the standard defensive set at this point), and failed to accomplish anything meaningful.
By turn 12, I was in a pretty big hole, but managed to make up some ground by KOing his Terrakion. At this point, I was starting to calm down and think my way through the game instead of just getting annoyed, but then I brought Moltres-Galar into Nidoqueen and got high roll Sludge Wave crit into useless Sleep Talk roll into high Sludge Wave roll (I believe his Nidoqueen was Timid because of the earlier 36% roll and the fact that it outsped the Moltres-Galar).
I managed to heal Latias up after losing Moltres-Galar and made a couple of doubles that got Zeraora in for free. If I'd been more aggressive with the first one, I could've made up more ground, but I got the Azumarill with the second one, so at least that worked out. I definitely had to be aggressive here if I wanted a chance to win. I probably should've gone to Latias on the Meteor Beam and tried to preserve Zeraora's health to deal with his own Zeraora, since I could've tried to pick up a kill there, but I still wasn't sure if it was offensive or defensive and I guessed wrong. From there, there wasn't much I could do without somehow healing Latias.
I knew his Zeraora was Jolly from the Knock Off damage on Rhyperior, which meant its kill pressure was pretty low, so without the crits/garbage Sleep Talk roll, I think I had a pretty solid chance of winning that one. A healthy Latias and a weakened Nidoqueen could've gone a long way toward containing his Zeraora and enabling my own, respectively, but that's not how things turned out. I was very frustrated by this game because my team needed a good result that week to keep the playoff dream alive and we did not get that, but I still enjoyed LTPL even though half the team was meming from week 1 and Kingler managed the team by throwing darts at the list of available tiers and then telling his players to figure out who's playing whatever the dartboard comes up with, which is how we got things like 2 PU games a week and Finchinator in Ubers.
Anyway, thanks for reading, and please feel free to let me know if this was actually useful/interesting instead of just deranged boomer rambling brought on by spending 3 days without electricity and nearly a week without running water while my Senator takes a vacation to Cancún.
Edited in pictures since I haven't seen something as ugly as this block of text since the last time I watched a BW UU game.
To start with, I don't really agree with this fixation on Slowking as the enabling factor for Terrakion. Yes, it's the best pivot available, but that doesn't mean you can't just U-turn/Volt Switch in with the many other pivots in the tier, most of which have at least one common check that Terrakion can take advantage of (Salamence, Victini, Rotom-H, Chansey, etc.), support it with paralysis, or even just use a double switch to get it in. On top of that, 91/90/90 defensive stats aren't exactly fragile and it's still beefy enough to come in on 1/2 neutral/resisted attacks per game without any support at all and live most priority moves (Conkeldurr and Azumarill don't KO from full and Scizor needs a Life Orb to guarantee the KO; it survives stuff like Victini's Psychic, any unboosted move from Salamence, Hurricane from Moltres-Galar, Hydro Pum from Rotom-Wash from full and has around a 20% chance to live things like Gyarados Waterfall and Zeraora Close Combat), to say nothing of its ability to tank one Scald/Giga Drain/whatever from defensive Pokemon like Amoonguss, Tangrowth, and Slowking at need. When you combine that with the fact that there are only maybe 4-5 commonly seen Pokemon in the tier that actually outspeed it, it doesn't exactly need to be a defensive powerhouse.
Other than that, I don't have much to say about Terrakion specifically, since previous posters have done a good job talking about its ability to click buttons and kill things, so I'll just do something that I don't see people really do anymore: post analysis of tournament games. I'll use my games from LTPL to start with, but I'm open to talking about my UU Masters games or trying to analyze someone else's games if there's enough demand for that. I only played in 4 weeks, so this hopefully won't drag on for too long.
Week 3 vs. Ajna: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1259285415
Team: https://pokepast.es/8e3e22062beb1fd5
I hadn't really built SS UU since the very beginning of UU Snake at this point, so I just started by slapping together 2 brokens (Latias + Terrakion) and then filling out the rest of the team in ways that let me play around the meta. Celesteela is an excellent defensive Pokemon and let me pretend it was possible to switch into Latias. Tentacruel punished Celesteela for trying to spam Leech Seed, cleared hazards, checked a few other things, and so on. Tapu Bulu was meant to put pressure on stuff that checked Latias and Terrakion while also providing useful typing and a little bit of recovery for the rest of the team. I gave it Zen Headbutt to remove Amoonguss/defensive Kommo-o and used Stone Edge to maintain neutral coverage on as many things as possible. Krookodile offered Intimidate, useful typing, and revenge-killing capacity. I probably could've put Stealth Rock on Krookodile instead of Terrakion, but I never ended up in a situation where I would've wanted to click Stealth Rock with either of them during the game, so ultimately it didn't matter. I don't think Close Combat was strictly necessary on Krookodile, so maybe dropping that would've been better.
I led Latias here because it threatens anything he could open up with to try to grab momentum and I can easily switch into his two possible answers. I went ahead and clicked Mystical Fire because going to Jirachi on the Draco Meteor seemed like the obvious response and I didn't think he'd be gutsy enough to stay in to try to status, especially since Rotom-Wash had the potential to be useful vs. everything but Latias with the right moves in its last two slots. The Mystical Fire damage let me know the Jirachi was offensive, so I switched out to scout for Choice Scarf. The fact that Ajna switched out told me that his Jirachi wasn't Choice Scarf, so I felt like Latias was in a very good position at this point and wanted to build my gameplan around getting it in and dropping Draco Meteors more or less for free. I also got to kill the Jirachi a few turns later.
On turn 7, I switched Latias out because I didn't want to feed it to a crocodile and thought I could get an opportunity to remove Amoonguss or Kommo-o with +2 Zen Headbutt. While my game plan mostly revolved around Latias at this point, I was still thinking of how I could open up lategame opportunities for Terrakion, so getting one of those two out of the way would've been helpful. Instead, Tapu Bulu missed Zen Headbutt, took a Sludge Bomb to the face, and died without accomplishing anything. The less said about the ability, the better. I blame Showdown for that one. At least Tapu Bulu's noble sacrifice/crippling incompetence gave me a free Latias switch.
I switched out of Victini because I still wasn't 100% sure whether Victini or Krookodile was the Scarfer, but Ajna played it the same way he did his Jirachi, so after that turn I was pretty confident that Krookodile was the Scarfer. Up until about turn 20, I just clicked Draco Meteor whenever I got the chance and chunked a couple of his Pokemon. I got a Sludge Bomb poison that limited his ability to try to double with Rotom-Wash, but I'm not sure how much that mattered since I could've still traded out the Tentacruel to click Draco Meteor brainlessly again. From there I just played around his Krookodile a bit until he was able to get his Kommo-o in. Maybe I should've stayed in with my Terrakion to prevent Kommo-o from setting up, but I didn't think Ajna would take the risk there and he ended up switching to Amoonguss instead. Once Krookodile and Kommo-o were on the field at the same time, I had to just go for it so that Clangorous Soul didn't just sweep me, since I was definitely vulnerable to it at that point. It probably would've been smarter to fodder something so that I could revenge kill it with Close Combat instead of risking a High Horsepower miss, but I think I was afraid of Drain Punch or something. From there, I just had to close it out.
Week 4 vs. Bushtush: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-536339
Team: https://pokepast.es/e6156d2654e29747
I didn't really do specific prep this tour and instead just built stuff that seemed fun to play. Latias wasn't any less broken this week than it was the previous week, but I switched it up by using Choice Specs instead. Thunderbolt was for Slowking and better damage on Celesteela, Azumarill, and Primarina, but one Draco Meteor meant Slowking wasn't a check anymore anyway, so I probably could've just slapped Sleep Talk or Trick or something on there instead. Indigo Plateau's waifu gave me a way to get Latias in on stuff like Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Kommo-o, and Salamence via Volt Switch while also giving me some speed control. I chose Blaze Kick and Play Rough as the coverage to deal with Scizor and Kommo-o more effectively. Zarude served as the obligatory revenge killer and also let me get Latias in on stuff it could threaten. I ran Close Combat over Jungle Healing to revenge weakened Kommo-o. Primarina gave me some extra breaking power and let me remove the fat Grass-types for Zarude and Zeraora just in case threatening them with Latias wasn't enough. I've seen a lot of people be skeptical of this set, and I understand why, so I'll talk about it in a little more detail here. The goal is to remove Amoonguss (and Tangrowth and Tentacruel to a lesser extent), hence the Psychic/Life Orb combo. A boosting item is necessary to KO Amoonguss and Tentacruel at +1. Expert Belt generates similar results, but the roll on Tentacruel is worse and you need Stealth Rock to 2HKO Assault Vest Tangrowth. Considering how heavily people leaned on the fat Grass-types (and how much they continue to do so), I think this set is a nice partner to anything that wants them removed. Nidoqueen/Celesteela provided Stealth Rock and some defensive value to the team.
I played out the first turn the same way as last game for the same reason, only this time I learned that the Jirachi was fat. On turn 8, I was able to get Jirachi in on Tangrowth and clicked Draco Meteor on the assumption that he wouldn't switch Jirachi into a potential Mystical Fire. I was right, crit the Suicune, and opened up a path for Celesteela to potentially win if I played it right. Primarina ultimately didn't get the chance to do anything this game because I left it in on a Jirachi instead of just going to Zeraora or Celesteela and the Jirachi did Jirachi things, so that was a mistake on my end.
I got a Flamethrower burn on Tangrowth that helped offset Regenerator healing somewhat throughout the game and then burned the Krookodile immediately afterward, which meant that Celesteela stood a very good chance of just outlasting everything if I could wear his team down a little more. I used his burned Krookodile to get Zarude in, which set up a double to Latias. I got Latias in a couple more times over the next 10 turns, but guessed wrong each time and ended up losing it without accomplishing much. I really should've trusted my instincts a bit more there, but I wasn't too worried because I'd been thinking of Celesteela as my victory condition ever since the Suicune died. Once Celesteela got one kill, it just kind of snowballed as long as I could get enough health back through Leech Seed, so I was able to close it out without difficulty. I got a bit lucky early, so it's hard to tell what might've happened otherwise, but I definitely think I messed up by not respecting Serene Grace enough. Guessing right with Latias didn't matter too much in the long run, but I'm annoyed with myself for not listening to my instincts.
Week 5 vs. Ramolost: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1268286448-mp91u1wv4c885dlphyand3gywcbossdpw
Team: https://pokepast.es/439f7d8f296104f2
I wanted to change things up this week instead of just using Latias, Celesteela, and 4 filler Pokemon, so I diversified my builds through the highly creative strategy of using a different Dragon-type, a different Steel-type, and a different Water-type, because I am old and don't like change, now get off my lawn. I saw Adaam post about Zarude and Chandelure, so I decided to start there. I ran Trick on Chandelure in case I got stalled, but Sleep Talk is just fine too. Zarude can get Chandelure in on the fat Grass-types and let it blow things up. I added Slowking to pivot Chandelure in, Nidoqueen for the usual Nidoqueen things, Scizor because I could pretend I had covered Latias between Slowking and Zarude and therefore could run a Steel-type that died to Mystical Fire, and Salamence because it fit in the slot. I hadn't decided on sets for these two at the time and was originally considering Swords Dance Scizor and the standard 3 attacks Special Salamence, but I decided on Dragon Dance because I wanted something that could really take advantage of Chandelure roasting things while also posing a threat itself and also I really love Salamence. I consider Life Orb mandatory on Salamence because you don't do enough damage otherwise and I build my Dragon Dance Salamence teams with the goal of bringing Salamence in once or twice, finding an opportunity to set up, and either ending the game right there or weakening the opposing team enough for something else to clean up. The Stealth Rock weakness doesn't matter as much when Salemence is only supposed to come in once, take 25% + whatever it needs to tank to set up, and get 2-4 kills before dying to Life Orb recoil. This philosophy is why High Impulse's game in week 1 of UU Snake caused me actual brain damage and sent me spiraling into tilt that lasted for an entire season. I slapped Defog on Scizor because both Salamence and Chandelure were weak to Stealth Rock, which isn't a great trait in my primary offensive weapons. I truly hate wasting slots on offensive threats on hazard control, but it fit here. I can't remember what the defensive investment did, but it was important for something. Safety Goggles let it switch into Amoonguss, but Sleep Talk on Chandelure might've been better to free up another item, especially since I didn't get stalled.
I led with Salamence here because the worst case scenario was that I traded evenly by chunking 2 Pokemon for around 50% each as he tried to switch around. I kind of wish I'd had the guts to Dragon Dance here, but I just clicked Outrage to guarantee that something died and protect myself against a potential attempt to stay in. I ended up getting a kill and a half, but I failed to capitalize on it later and a 3-turn Outrage cost me the chance to try again later. From there, we just traded Stealth Rock and Slowking Teleports until turn 9, where I wimped out and tried to Bullet Punch the Nidoqueen instead of listening to my instincts and either switching out to Chandelure or just clicking Knock Off on the incoming Magnezone. Removing the Magnet still would've left me with a weakened Scizor, but I still could've come in once or twice more to force out the Kyurem or potentially heal up on the Slowking. The high Thunderbolt roll sucked because it meant I died to hazards, but it's my fault for not playing around the Magnezone more intelligently to begin with.
Once Scizor went down, I'd pretty much lost my ways of dealing with Kyurem unless he decided to fodder it to Zarude for some reason. Maybe I could've gone to Zarude on turn 15 and tried to grab momentum somehow there or tried to put Kyurem in range of a Darkest Lariat crit.
Week 6 vs. PinkDragonTamer: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-540061
Team: https://pokepast.es/24af43232c86032f
This team was kind of similar to my week 4 team. I brought broken Latias because it was broken and Zeraora and Primarina served similar purposes to their week 4 incarnations, but I diverged a bit from there. I was tired of defensive Steel-type or Slowking + Choice Scarf Dark-type being the Latias counterplay, so I started looking for something unusual that could serve as a defensive check without being Chansey, because only scum use that Pokemon. Moltres-Galar stood out with that sick 90/125 Special bulk, so I started playing around with calcs and ended up liking it more than I expected to. The defensive investment allows it to survive 2 Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteors from full, while the speed outpaces Timid Nidoqueen. The original spread, which I used for the LTPL game, had less Speed investment in exchange for a little more Special Attack. I went with a simple RestTalk 2 attacks set because I really just wanted Moltres-Galar to serve as a special tank and running Fiery Wrath alone would have left me walled by too much. I chose Hurricane over Air Slash because the damage differential is huge, especially since I'm not running offensive investment, and I already had a reliable STAB in Fiery Wrath. This set also serves as a decent stallbreaker thanks to Berserk, since you can set up on Chansey, Rest off the Toxic or other damage, and then fish for Hurricane confusion and Fiery Wrath flinches like a skilled player, especially since nothing but Chansey on most common stall teams really wants to deal with a +2/3/whatever Moltres-Galar. Scizor gave me some revenge killing ability and another threat/wincon. Between Scizor, Zeraora, and my defensive backbone, I felt willing to forego a Choice Scarfer. Rhyperior finished out the team by providing Stealth Rock, a nice Flying resist, a Zeraora check, and so on and so forth. The Speed creeps defensive Celesteela and uninvested base 55s, athough I don't remember why I cared about the latter. Heat Crash bonks the fat Grasses, Celesteela, Skarmory, Scizor, etc. The Zeraora set is a little unorthodox, but I decided that anything I'd Volt Switch on would probably just recover the HP with Regenerator anyway, so I tried to make Zeraora more of a breaker than a pivot. A boosting item is actually really nice on Zeraora because suddenly you do actual damage instead of barely failing to KO things you hit super effectively. It could probably have been Jolly to give me a better shot vs. opposing Zeraora, but then I would've run into the damage problem again. 8 Defense on Primarina lets it survive something, but I don't remember what and don't care enough to figure it out right now. It's late and I need to go to bed so I can wake up tomorrow, watch Fox News, yell at the neighborhood kids for having too much fun, post angrily on Facebook about how the younger generation is ruining the world, and still make it to Red Robin in time for the senior buffet.
I started off by getting the lead wrong. Leading with the Dragon-type 4 weeks in a row probably wasn't the best decision, but change takes energy I don't have. In retrospect, Primarina or Zeraora probably would've been better lead options. I spent 3 turns trying and failing to play around the Azumarill I had no actual answer to (bringing that was a smart choice vs. me since I rarely use Tangrowth/Amoonguss, so props to him for that) and then getting crit on turn 4, which meant I had a lot less freedom with my Latias. PinkDragonTamer had the option of staying in to punish a potential Roost or of switching into something else, and I needed to pick which one I thought he'd do and commit to it, which meant Roosting, trying to kill the Nidoqueen, or switching out to something that let me take back control of the game. Instead, I tilted, tried to catch a Celesteela I wasn't beating anyway (I was assuming it was the standard defensive set at this point), and failed to accomplish anything meaningful.
By turn 12, I was in a pretty big hole, but managed to make up some ground by KOing his Terrakion. At this point, I was starting to calm down and think my way through the game instead of just getting annoyed, but then I brought Moltres-Galar into Nidoqueen and got high roll Sludge Wave crit into useless Sleep Talk roll into high Sludge Wave roll (I believe his Nidoqueen was Timid because of the earlier 36% roll and the fact that it outsped the Moltres-Galar).
I managed to heal Latias up after losing Moltres-Galar and made a couple of doubles that got Zeraora in for free. If I'd been more aggressive with the first one, I could've made up more ground, but I got the Azumarill with the second one, so at least that worked out. I definitely had to be aggressive here if I wanted a chance to win. I probably should've gone to Latias on the Meteor Beam and tried to preserve Zeraora's health to deal with his own Zeraora, since I could've tried to pick up a kill there, but I still wasn't sure if it was offensive or defensive and I guessed wrong. From there, there wasn't much I could do without somehow healing Latias.
I knew his Zeraora was Jolly from the Knock Off damage on Rhyperior, which meant its kill pressure was pretty low, so without the crits/garbage Sleep Talk roll, I think I had a pretty solid chance of winning that one. A healthy Latias and a weakened Nidoqueen could've gone a long way toward containing his Zeraora and enabling my own, respectively, but that's not how things turned out. I was very frustrated by this game because my team needed a good result that week to keep the playoff dream alive and we did not get that, but I still enjoyed LTPL even though half the team was meming from week 1 and Kingler managed the team by throwing darts at the list of available tiers and then telling his players to figure out who's playing whatever the dartboard comes up with, which is how we got things like 2 PU games a week and Finchinator in Ubers.
Anyway, thanks for reading, and please feel free to let me know if this was actually useful/interesting instead of just deranged boomer rambling brought on by spending 3 days without electricity and nearly a week without running water while my Senator takes a vacation to Cancún.
Edited in pictures since I haven't seen something as ugly as this block of text since the last time I watched a BW UU game.
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Got reqs Woooo, first time. So I will share my thoughts, terrak is definitely and undeniably busted asf. AoA terrak is the strongest via clicking buttons and besides priority and faster mons there is not much to check it, terrak isnt slow either so it will not get revenged that easily, and during the test, terraks natural bulk showed as well 91/90/90 is not frail by any means and it can sponge one attack from pokemon such as Zera's CC, Mence's Draco, and Amoongus has a role to 2hko with a stab super effective
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 258-304 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 205-243 (63.4 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 152-182 (47 - 56.3%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO
Terrak as everyone knows is stupidly strong having a whopping 129 attack alongside high BP stabs in stone edge and close combat, further boosted by life orb to create some very scary calcs
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Amoonguss: 199-234 (46 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
2hko'ing amoonguss is rare especially with a not super effective move, this just shows how stupidly strong it is and this is only one example so far
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 253-300 (62.6 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
While Non resist even as bulky as jirachi are easily 2hko'ed by stabs.
The strain that terrak pulls on teambuilding is huge, if you do not have a fighting/rock resist you are screwed, if you fail to outspeed it, it just clicks buttons unpunished but its life orb recoil. Pokemon that used to "counter"/"check" terrak last gen such as doublade, gligar, latias, hippowdown, and starmine are all non existent in this tier the main checks it has is skarmory, lycanroc-d, amoongus, CB azu, and scizor and while the rare pallosand deserves a mention it is dead weight against any team without it.
Soo while I am it, I will give the team I used for reqs https://pokepast.es/98bf745a29c3d591 This team I found as a version to moute HO which carried me to get my first reqs. Krook lead -> get rocks -> either sack/switch to grimsnarl -> get screens and sweep with 4 mons behind screens and with rocks.
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 258-304 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 205-243 (63.4 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 152-182 (47 - 56.3%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO
Terrak as everyone knows is stupidly strong having a whopping 129 attack alongside high BP stabs in stone edge and close combat, further boosted by life orb to create some very scary calcs
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Amoonguss: 199-234 (46 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
2hko'ing amoonguss is rare especially with a not super effective move, this just shows how stupidly strong it is and this is only one example so far
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 253-300 (62.6 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
While Non resist even as bulky as jirachi are easily 2hko'ed by stabs.
The strain that terrak pulls on teambuilding is huge, if you do not have a fighting/rock resist you are screwed, if you fail to outspeed it, it just clicks buttons unpunished but its life orb recoil. Pokemon that used to "counter"/"check" terrak last gen such as doublade, gligar, latias, hippowdown, and starmine are all non existent in this tier the main checks it has is skarmory, lycanroc-d, amoongus, CB azu, and scizor and while the rare pallosand deserves a mention it is dead weight against any team without it.
Soo while I am it, I will give the team I used for reqs https://pokepast.es/98bf745a29c3d591 This team I found as a version to moute HO which carried me to get my first reqs. Krook lead -> get rocks -> either sack/switch to grimsnarl -> get screens and sweep with 4 mons behind screens and with rocks.
Sure, ofc while offensive teams have counter play, you struggle very easily against balance teams to more stally teams which do not like terrakion taking advantage of their rotom heat, salamce or kyurem, it is just not fun to play a game of sack a mon. Tho sure there is counterplay and there is nothing i can do to influence your decision but offense isnt the only play style and fitting pallo on every stall team just not to insta lose is very restricting to my eyes
The squad courtesy of Adaam
So the laddering experience was weird. I would face Terrak relatively often, but it would just be played awfully. This game on mid ladder (right below 1500) is a pretty good example of how the laddering would go: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1289943159-4xb6l3zr2vbp27qj4s7xsje3amp1zlopw
To be fair, I did get some better games eventually, but I didn't get many decent Terrak users. All i got was this one: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1292372932-8d5c4xnf1gmzllzbrn7w49ir8yrvckgpw
Rak didn't claim a single ko, despite 2hkoing everything and being able to claim vs Tini/Chans/Bish. I was able to limit its switchins through spikes and offensive pressure. That being said, it's kinda crazy that I had to fear Rak, despite having pdef Amoong, pdef Skarm and two additional rock resists.
Here's a team with Conk>Rak:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1292128321-tetn588f6vtfcypbtz03mdtnbdiqzfzpw
I agree with those who think King + Rak is too much. The defensive counterplay is limited, if it even exists. Moreover, it is not very challenging to get future port off with Slowking. It may at times require some thinking, but overall I find the combo to be simultaneously easy and very rewarding. I do think it would be way less of a problem if boots were nuked, but afaik that's not happening. With regards to this match up, if Conk was replaced by Rak, I think I just lose at preview. Slowking comes in on Tini/Skarm/Chans/Keld and clicks future port into Rak, which then claims. My counterplay is limited to going hard Bish on Slowking, hoping I do not get burned. Conk, on the other hand, lacks the same speed tier and is thus much easier to handle. Idk why this Conk didn't have facade, which in my view is necessary for Moongy, but that admittedly also made it easier to handle. Nonetheless I don't think Conk + King would be as much of a problem, due to the lower speed tier of Conk making it easier to weaken it and threaten it out. Thus, I think the problem of King + Rak is primarily caused by the latter.
In conclusion I don't think laddering really changed my mind at all. Most games were rather poor, while only a couple of the good ones even involved Rak. I did not struggle with Rak whenever I faced it, but then again, the team I was using is about as good as it gets vs it, and my opponents could have played better as well. In fact, if I faced a well played Rak with proper support, be it King, Rotom, Sciz, Zera or whoever, I would likely struggle very much vs it, despite having several sturdy rock and fighting resists. In my view, Rak not only puts too much strain on teambuilding, but it even has the potential to blow through all its counterplay with the proper support. Thus, I believe it to be in the tier's best interest to vote ban.
Hey there everyone! Taking a turn away from the Terrakion discussion, I figured that I should post about the usage stats from both January and February and compare them, showing the changes in the evolving metagame. I'm doing this similar to the OU version done by TPP so credits to him for the general idea and question types. Anyway, here are the 1630 usage stats for February and January individually since they are 2 separate metagames because of the Latias ban at the beginning of last month. The top one is February and the bottom one is January, and both are only up to the 4.52% cutoff.
Rank | Pokemon | Usage % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---------
| 1 | Scizor | 33.99984% |
| 2 | Zeraora | 26.60058% |
| 3 | Kommo-o | 25.09393% |
| 4 | Krookodile | 24.48224% |
| 5 | Salamence | 23.13517% |
| 6 | Victini | 22.81724% |
| 7 | Amoonguss | 15.99494% |
| 8 | Jirachi | 13.88700% |
| 9 | Slowking | 13.29768% |
| 10 | Azumarill | 13.12898% |
| 11 | Mew | 12.36035% |
| 12 | Celesteela | 12.13072% |
| 13 | Moltres-Galar | 12.12565% |
| 14 | Rotom-Heat | 11.67314% |
| 15 | Chansey | 11.58058% |
| 16 | Nidoqueen | 11.54282% |
| 17 | Conkeldurr | 11.32612% |
| 18 | Grimmsnarl | 10.98067% |
| 19 | Skarmory | 10.82977% |
| 20 | Keldeo | 10.65477% |
| 21 | Gyarados | 10.63062% |
| 22 | Tangrowth | 10.41481% |
| 23 | Terrakion | 9.95065% |
| 24 | Kyurem | 9.57744% |
| 25 | Rotom-Wash | 9.24526% |
| 26 | Bisharp | 8.90769% |
| 27 | Primarina | 8.78564% |
| 28 | Tapu Bulu | 8.76906% |
| 29 | Thundurus-Therian | 8.61465% |
| 30 | Lycanroc-Dusk | 8.20053% |
| 31 | Hatterene | 7.58126% |
| 32 | Nihilego | 7.20355% |
| 33 | Alakazam | 6.47127% |
| 34 | Azelf | 6.26853% |
| 35 | Ninetales-Alola | 5.48839% |
| 36 | Tentacruel | 5.46560% |
| 37 | Mamoswine | 5.26118% |
| 38 | Quagsire | 5.09219% |
| 39 | Crawdaunt | 4.85173% |
| 40 | Zarude | 4.65085% |
| 41 | Chandelure | 4.54059% |
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---------
| 1 | Scizor | 26.90366% |
| 2 | Zeraora | 24.85820% |
| 3 | Krookodile | 23.90153% |
| 4 | Kommo-o | 21.52799% |
| 5 | Latias | 19.42559% |
| 6 | Victini | 19.16985% |
| 7 | Salamence | 17.27167% |
| 8 | Celesteela | 15.78751% |
| 9 | Azumarill | 14.72502% |
| 10 | Rotom-Heat | 13.93009% |
| 11 | Amoonguss | 13.38598% |
| 12 | Jirachi | 13.10351% |
| 13 | Tapu Bulu | 12.34101% |
| 14 | Mew | 11.98150% |
| 15 | Moltres-Galar | 11.91682% |
| 16 | Tangrowth | 11.34598% |
| 17 | Conkeldurr | 11.32050% |
| 18 | Skarmory | 10.91810% |
| 19 | Chansey | 10.80400% |
| 20 | Nidoqueen | 10.62486% |
| 21 | Rotom-Wash | 10.48058% |
| 22 | Bisharp | 10.29086% |
| 23 | Gyarados | 10.16259% |
| 24 | Slowking | 9.86893% |
| 25 | Grimmsnarl | 9.49865% |
| 26 | Thundurus-Therian | 9.18833% |
| 27 | Kyurem | 8.53682% |
| 28 | Terrakion | 8.45685% |
| 29 | Primarina | 8.25471% |
| 30 | Keldeo | 7.80560% |
| 31 | Ninetales-Alola | 7.19228% |
| 32 | Hatterene | 7.17036% |
| 33 | Mamoswine | 7.02768% |
| 34 | Alakazam | 6.95667% |
| 35 | Crawdaunt | 6.88547% |
| 36 | Tentacruel | 6.45053% |
| 37 | Azelf | 5.64543% |
| 38 | Quagsire | 5.34038% |
| 39 | Nihilego | 5.15612% |
| 40 | Lycanroc-Dusk | 5.09397% |
Notable increases in usage
(26.9% -->34%) Despite being #1 already, Scizor has experienced a tremendous jump in usage, as the Latias ban benefitted it immensely. We all know what Scizor does, its a reliable pivot in the tier with a multitude of sets and strong offensive presence. Nothing much to say here.
(17.3%-->23%) Cracking its way into the top 5, Salamence is another Pokemon benefitting from the Latias ban. Mence is by far the best defogger in the tier and provides excellent utility with its great defensive typing, while also have high power moves like Hurricane and Draco Meteor to give it an offensive presence as well. It is well deserving of being a top 5 mon in the tier imo
(9.9%-->13.3%) Jumping all the way from #24 to #9 we have the CEO of momentum himself. King is an amazing defensive pivot with a solid defensive typing, reliable recovery, and momentum in teleport. It is no secrets that king has been dominating the tournament scene forming regenerator cores with amoongus and supplementing breakers with future sight, king is one of the best Pokemon in the tier, it is even so good that another tier is possibly taking it for themselves.
(5.1%-->8.2%) Murder Dog supremacy! Duskroc has gained a lot of usage from being the lowest used UU mon to hitting #30. Its hard to explain this guys jump tbh, maybe we just saw it was getting low usage so we decided to use it more ig. Still, an underrated breaker that will shine again if Terrak leaves the tier
Notable decreases in usage
(15.8%-->12.1%) Getting dropped out of the top 10, Celesteela is no longer the defensive behemoth it once was. While still very good, the tier has adapted to it with dominant Pokemon like Victini and Zeraora being commonly used. Also, slowking has often competed with it as a better special wall on a team, also explaining its drop in usage.
(12.3%-->8.8%) Bulu has taken a tremendous hit in usage. The increasing dominance of Skarmory, amoongus, and scizor means many teams will have at least one bulu answer naturally built in. Still, its a good breaker with great supportive abilities in setting grassy terrain, but it looks like it will continue to be on the decline as the metagame develops (but seriously why does everyone hate bulu though)
Newcomers?!?
(4.65% from the February usage stats) It would be funny if we took RU's most central and important Pokemon. Seriously though, zarude has resurged as a solid choice scarf user in the tier, providing a good alternative to the tiresome scarf krook. It also can run jungle healing and bulk up sets as well as banded sets even to bust through teams. Our current defensive staples give it some trouble, but Zarude is certainly on the rise in UU and could rise in the future, maybe not April but July if it keeps up at this rate.
(4.54% from February usage stats) I love this mon right now. Ghost is a great offensive type with the removal of pursuit, and this guy just nukes the tiers defensive cores. If something like Azelf or Quagsire has remained UU by usage, then Chandy should certainly deserve to get more usage and be officially UU. I can see this guy getting better with the inevitable Terrakion ban as well.
Goodbye Friends
- all these Pokemon are likely to rise to OU in the coming shift. Skarmory and Slowking leaving will cause some big changes in the tier's dynamics, and its interesting to see what the tier would look like from there. Like I said last time, now that we know these are very likely to rise we shouldn't do tiering decisions based on them being in the tier. An example is not testing or not banning Victini because of slowking being in the tier, but since it wont be here in a month that isn't a valid excuse. Overall just interested to see if these guys do rise and if anything else will rise. Also btw we are very likely to get buzzwole, barraskewda, and kanto moltres so do what you want with that info.
Lastly, I'll drop some questions that those who are reading this can answer if they want
1. Any increases or decreases you are happy/unhappy with?
2. Any predictions to what might increase or decrease in the future?
3. Any underrated Pokemon or sets that have been performing well? If so, what are they?
4. Favorite Cores to use in the metagame?
5. If Terrakion does get banned, what will you think the metagame will look like?
6. Bit of a fun one, but in your opinion what is the worst Pokemon that is UU by usage?
Hope y'all enjoyed reading this and have a great day!
Rank | Pokemon | Usage % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---------
| 1 | Scizor | 33.99984% |
| 2 | Zeraora | 26.60058% |
| 3 | Kommo-o | 25.09393% |
| 4 | Krookodile | 24.48224% |
| 5 | Salamence | 23.13517% |
| 6 | Victini | 22.81724% |
| 7 | Amoonguss | 15.99494% |
| 8 | Jirachi | 13.88700% |
| 9 | Slowking | 13.29768% |
| 10 | Azumarill | 13.12898% |
| 11 | Mew | 12.36035% |
| 12 | Celesteela | 12.13072% |
| 13 | Moltres-Galar | 12.12565% |
| 14 | Rotom-Heat | 11.67314% |
| 15 | Chansey | 11.58058% |
| 16 | Nidoqueen | 11.54282% |
| 17 | Conkeldurr | 11.32612% |
| 18 | Grimmsnarl | 10.98067% |
| 19 | Skarmory | 10.82977% |
| 20 | Keldeo | 10.65477% |
| 21 | Gyarados | 10.63062% |
| 22 | Tangrowth | 10.41481% |
| 23 | Terrakion | 9.95065% |
| 24 | Kyurem | 9.57744% |
| 25 | Rotom-Wash | 9.24526% |
| 26 | Bisharp | 8.90769% |
| 27 | Primarina | 8.78564% |
| 28 | Tapu Bulu | 8.76906% |
| 29 | Thundurus-Therian | 8.61465% |
| 30 | Lycanroc-Dusk | 8.20053% |
| 31 | Hatterene | 7.58126% |
| 32 | Nihilego | 7.20355% |
| 33 | Alakazam | 6.47127% |
| 34 | Azelf | 6.26853% |
| 35 | Ninetales-Alola | 5.48839% |
| 36 | Tentacruel | 5.46560% |
| 37 | Mamoswine | 5.26118% |
| 38 | Quagsire | 5.09219% |
| 39 | Crawdaunt | 4.85173% |
| 40 | Zarude | 4.65085% |
| 41 | Chandelure | 4.54059% |
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---------
| 1 | Scizor | 26.90366% |
| 2 | Zeraora | 24.85820% |
| 3 | Krookodile | 23.90153% |
| 4 | Kommo-o | 21.52799% |
| 5 | Latias | 19.42559% |
| 6 | Victini | 19.16985% |
| 7 | Salamence | 17.27167% |
| 8 | Celesteela | 15.78751% |
| 9 | Azumarill | 14.72502% |
| 10 | Rotom-Heat | 13.93009% |
| 11 | Amoonguss | 13.38598% |
| 12 | Jirachi | 13.10351% |
| 13 | Tapu Bulu | 12.34101% |
| 14 | Mew | 11.98150% |
| 15 | Moltres-Galar | 11.91682% |
| 16 | Tangrowth | 11.34598% |
| 17 | Conkeldurr | 11.32050% |
| 18 | Skarmory | 10.91810% |
| 19 | Chansey | 10.80400% |
| 20 | Nidoqueen | 10.62486% |
| 21 | Rotom-Wash | 10.48058% |
| 22 | Bisharp | 10.29086% |
| 23 | Gyarados | 10.16259% |
| 24 | Slowking | 9.86893% |
| 25 | Grimmsnarl | 9.49865% |
| 26 | Thundurus-Therian | 9.18833% |
| 27 | Kyurem | 8.53682% |
| 28 | Terrakion | 8.45685% |
| 29 | Primarina | 8.25471% |
| 30 | Keldeo | 7.80560% |
| 31 | Ninetales-Alola | 7.19228% |
| 32 | Hatterene | 7.17036% |
| 33 | Mamoswine | 7.02768% |
| 34 | Alakazam | 6.95667% |
| 35 | Crawdaunt | 6.88547% |
| 36 | Tentacruel | 6.45053% |
| 37 | Azelf | 5.64543% |
| 38 | Quagsire | 5.34038% |
| 39 | Nihilego | 5.15612% |
| 40 | Lycanroc-Dusk | 5.09397% |
Notable increases in usage
Notable decreases in usage
Newcomers?!?
Goodbye Friends
Lastly, I'll drop some questions that those who are reading this can answer if they want
1. Any increases or decreases you are happy/unhappy with?
2. Any predictions to what might increase or decrease in the future?
3. Any underrated Pokemon or sets that have been performing well? If so, what are they?
4. Favorite Cores to use in the metagame?
5. If Terrakion does get banned, what will you think the metagame will look like?
6. Bit of a fun one, but in your opinion what is the worst Pokemon that is UU by usage?
Hope y'all enjoyed reading this and have a great day!
Echoing what other proban people have said about Terrak for the most part, slower teams have next to no reliable counterplay for this mon (sandcastle ist bad and you cant convince me otherwise) and it forces a kill/heavy chip every time it comes out, cause just clicking attacks usually has very little drawback. I dont think the "its somewhat hard to get it on the field" argument is that solid, cause thats most breakers and its definitely easier to get it in than for example daunt and thats not even mentioning Tele/Uturn support.
Several users in this thread have brought up that terrak is used fairly little on ladder and while that is true for the most part, usage obviously doesnt equal viability. Ive been using a build very similar to what Indigo Plateau shared further up for some time now on ladder:
Ban Rak.
Several users in this thread have brought up that terrak is used fairly little on ladder and while that is true for the most part, usage obviously doesnt equal viability. Ive been using a build very similar to what Indigo Plateau shared further up for some time now on ladder:
Ban Rak.
Here’s a pretty fun Slowking set that requires more skill to use rather than just clicking braindead Teleport.
Slowking @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Serious Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump / Scald
- Fire Blast
- Calm Mind
- Scald / Psychic / Psyshock
Once you get a Calm Mind boost, you can survive a lot of super effective special attacks and KO normal Slowking checks:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Colbur Berry Slowking: 265-313 (67.2 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
OHKO back with Fire Blast (even without Calm Mind) or Hydro Pump
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
OHKO back with Scald (even without Calm Mind)
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Colbur Berry Slowking: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO
OHKO back with Scald (it’s a roll without Calm Mind, Hydro Pump OHKOes even without Calm Mind)
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 283-338 (71.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
OHKO back with Hydro Pump
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Colbur Berry Slowking: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
OHKO back with Scald (even without Calm Mind)
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
OHKO with Hydro Pump
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 229-273 (58.1 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 176-210 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Slowking Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus: 295-348 (98.6 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO NOTE NO COLBUR BERRY
+1 252+ SpA Slowking Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 204-240 (63.5 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Slowking Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 136-160 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 148-175 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
Fire Blast (to stop Berserk from activating) into Hydro Pump and you beat Moltres. If rocks are up just Hydro Pump and pivot out to something that can tank a +1 Moltres
OHKO back with Fire Blast (even without Calm Mind) or Hydro Pump
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
OHKO back with Scald (even without Calm Mind)
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Colbur Berry Slowking: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO
OHKO back with Scald (it’s a roll without Calm Mind, Hydro Pump OHKOes even without Calm Mind)
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 283-338 (71.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
OHKO back with Hydro Pump
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Colbur Berry Slowking: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
OHKO back with Scald (even without Calm Mind)
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
OHKO with Hydro Pump
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 229-273 (58.1 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 176-210 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Slowking Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus: 295-348 (98.6 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO NOTE NO COLBUR BERRY
+1 252+ SpA Slowking Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 204-240 (63.5 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Slowking Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 136-160 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 148-175 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
Fire Blast (to stop Berserk from activating) into Hydro Pump and you beat Moltres. If rocks are up just Hydro Pump and pivot out to something that can tank a +1 Moltres
The last move is quite flexible. You can use Psychic/Psyshock for another strong STAB option. Slack Off allows you to setup multiple Calm Minds on defensive Pokémon, especially if you get burned or paralyzed. Iron Defense is also an option to surprise physical attackers, although it’s better to run both Scald and Hydro Pump on the same set because running Iron Defense requires more support.
Now back to the Teleport Slowking discussion. If this were to somehow not rise to OU next month, I think it should be looked at next (and even Slowbro if that thing ever drops). Slowking massively improves the offensive presence of every offensive Pokemon that even average threats like Zarude become more annoying to manage. I do remember seeing a well-made post made by pokemonisfun last year talking about Slowking’s potential brokenness with Regen + Boots + Teleport + Future Sight. Since I’m too lazy to rewrite he said, I would just link it in my post (read before continuing). He even predicted Liburr's ladder team like a prophet.
One major point to add about Slowking that is not covered in his post is that even though it does not always have the opportunity to combo both Future Sight and Teleport, Slowking still has the unfair advantage of having more options to choose what punishment and outcome it wants to take:
A. If Slowking wants to just boost its breakers, Future Sight and hard switch at the cost of potentially chipping its teammate
B. If Slowking wants to just give a save switch and avoid taking further damage, Teleport
C. If Slowking wants to boost its breakers AND give them a safe switch, Future Sight then Teleport at the cost of chipping itself (basically C = A + B)
This gives the Slowking player way more flexibility and control over the average Regenerator, Future Sight, and Teleport user. Regenerator and pivot moves allow for players to gain insane amount of momentum by saving turns to heal or bringing your teammates in, respectively. What if they have both (Tornadus-T and Mienshao)? You can at the very least deal with its teammates (outcome B happens). Future Sight on the other hand only allows you to boost your breakers (outcome A happens). Despite being very powerful, Pokémon with Future Sight or regen pivots only have options A or B to choose from, making them quite predictable.
Slowking has three possible options since it has the ability to use BOTH option A and option B, while also ADDING a unique outcome C WITHOUT REMOVING THE OPTION OF USING A OR B on just two moveslots. Once Slowking gets in the field, you first have to deal with either Future Sight or Teleport. It used Teleport? Deal with whatever comes in. It used Future Sight? Now you have to deal with whether it uses Teleport or hard switches. And then you deal with whatever comes in. Also note that if you somehow manage to eliminate outcome C from happening since it means staying in the field for 2-3 turns, Slowking still has both outcomes A and B to fall back on, which is one option higher than a regen pivot and Future Sight user. And if options A and B aren’t available? It still has secret option D of switching out. When you have four options to choose from and the worst of them still gives you regenerator healing, it honestly says a lot about how overloaded Slowking’s supportive and momentum-grabbing qualities can be. I hope this gives a new understanding of how to look at the unhealthiness of more supportive Pokémon.
As for Terrakion, I find it to be one of the more borderline threats. I personally wouldn’t ban it since I generally oppose bans, but I understand why it would most likely be banned. However, I highly doubt that a Terrakion ban would make stall that much better (thankfully). I personally think that Conkeldurr, Crawdaunt, Alakazam, and Chandelure are bigger thorns than Terrakion for stall, while Azumarill, Keldeo, and banded Victini can still put in major work. It would take more than banning Terrakion for stall to be better. That said Terrakion covers way more Pokémon for a wallbreaker since it is fast and does not fold to every physical priority and scarfer in the tier like Alakazam, so I get what makes Terrakion worse than the others.
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Here to answer a few of Monky25's questions! I sadly wasn't able to get reqs (I went 23-2 and stuff went south fast) but I'd like to think i have a decent grasp of the current meta, so here goes!
This lil bugger may move up to OU soon, but he's been doing a great job at providing the tier with a great defensive pivot and Future Sight support. It'll be sad to see him gone, but it does means one less Regenerator mon so I'm okay with it going
MURDER DOG! This pupper's been seeing a lot more usage lately and that's GOOD. I pretty much agree with the statements Monky made: It's a very underrated breaker and will probably see more usage once Rak leaves the tier
The thing I'm upset about:
Okay, I understand that this is one of your so called "unmons", but this thing is actually good. Tangrowth and Amoongus give it a hard time, but with those two gone it wrecks shop. I do hope it picks up in usage soon.
Could be a prediction, could be my love for him, I'm not quite sure. Though it's not as powerful as Alakazam, it definitely has a niche in the meta and with Slowking leaving we could see more Reuniclus as our replacement Regen mon, or maybe Stored Power sets.
Crawdaunt's usage is absolutely abysmal at the moment and I will not stand for it. With both a viable Choice Band, Swords Dance and AoA set, it has the potential to be a great cleaner (another thing to note is that it can 2HKO Tangrowth if you wish to use uhhh, Ice Beam? So have fun ig) or you can just OHKO with +2 Knock or Knock -> Aqua Jet in Tang's case
Crawdaunt @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer
- Close Combat
Victini @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blue Flare
- Psychic
- Glaciate / Energy Ball
- U-turn
I recall these two being brought up in the Discord, so I decided to see how well they would pair. Special Victini pretty much gets rid of everything Crawduant doesn't like: Skarm, Tangrowth, Amoongus, Scizor, Celesteela etc. I sound like a broken record, but Daunt is nutty and should be used more.
is absolute buttcheeks and I'm convinced that the only reason it's still in the tier is because of low ladder.
Well, there's my two cents on the lot. Hoping y'all had fun during suspect season and that Azelf stays at least somewhere on the VR. Have a good day/afternoon/evening depending on timezone :)
Edit: I'd also greatly encourage replying to the questions! It's fun to take a look at people's perspectives.
The things I'm happy with:
This lil bugger may move up to OU soon, but he's been doing a great job at providing the tier with a great defensive pivot and Future Sight support. It'll be sad to see him gone, but it does means one less Regenerator mon so I'm okay with it going MURDER DOG! This pupper's been seeing a lot more usage lately and that's GOOD. I pretty much agree with the statements Monky made: It's a very underrated breaker and will probably see more usage once Rak leaves the tierThe thing I'm upset about:
Okay, I understand that this is one of your so called "unmons", but this thing is actually good. Tangrowth and Amoongus give it a hard time, but with those two gone it wrecks shop. I do hope it picks up in usage soon. Could be a prediction, could be my love for him, I'm not quite sure. Though it's not as powerful as Alakazam, it definitely has a niche in the meta and with Slowking leaving we could see more Reuniclus as our replacement Regen mon, or maybe Stored Power sets. Crawdaunt's usage is absolutely abysmal at the moment and I will not stand for it. With both a viable Choice Band, Swords Dance and AoA set, it has the potential to be a great cleaner (another thing to note is that it can 2HKO Tangrowth if you wish to use uhhh, Ice Beam? So have fun ig) Wow! Isn't it really cool how I brang Crawdaunt up not too long ago?
Crawdaunt @ Life Orb / Choice BandAbility: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer
- Close Combat
Victini @ Heavy-Duty BootsAbility: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blue Flare
- Psychic
- Glaciate / Energy Ball
- U-turn
I recall these two being brought up in the Discord, so I decided to see how well they would pair. Special Victini pretty much gets rid of everything Crawduant doesn't like: Skarm, Tangrowth, Amoongus, Scizor, Celesteela etc. I sound like a broken record, but Daunt is nutty and should be used more.
No Terrakion in the teambuilder because out of the two months i've been playing i've seen it about 7 times. I'm sure things will change, but I don't wanna go predicting the future juuust yet
Not Azelf because Azelf is cool and I want it to stay.
is absolute buttcheeks and I'm convinced that the only reason it's still in the tier is because of low ladder.Well, there's my two cents on the lot. Hoping y'all had fun during suspect season and that Azelf stays at least somewhere on the VR. Have a good day/afternoon/evening depending on timezone :)
Edit: I'd also greatly encourage replying to the questions! It's fun to take a look at people's perspectives.
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Heya, I'd like to spark some discussion about Victini. We all know how versatile Victini can be, and it has been growing and growing as a problem in the eyes of many. I'll highlight some points why I think Victini could be a problem, but I still haven't made up my mind yet.
Probably the most common argument used to justify Victini being broken. The full range of sets Victini can run makes predicting it at team preview very difficult. Its most common set is special HDB, but other sets like Scarf, physical HDB, CB, mixed, and OTR all work extremely well. You may predict the opponent's Victini to be special HDB, but they just V-Create your Chansey. Scarf can save Victini's team from being swept by stuff like Bisharp through Final Gambit. Toxic from physical HDB just fucks over Rotom-H, Salamence, and Slowking. CB V-Create is disgustingly strong, and OTR easily sweep teams if they're weakened/don't have priority.
2. The Special Heavy-Duty Boots set
Victini @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blue Flare
- Psychic
- Energy Ball
- U-turn
This is what people call Victini's best and most dangerous set. The ability of switching moves to hit would-be switch-ins like Salamence and Rhyperior, the raw power of Blue Flare and Psychic, the coverage Energy Ball provides, and just the sheer spammability all these moves have with little to no drawbacks is what people say pushes Victini over the edge. Victini is not limited to running Energy Ball on the last slot too, it can run Glaciate for Salamence and Focus Blast for Incineroar.
Unlike V-create, Blue Flare is spammable since it doesn't lower Victini's stats, not to mention it has a good chance to burn stuff like Rhyperior and Salamence that try to switch in. Psychic gives Victini good neutral hits on stuff that can take Blue Flare, most notably, Blue Flare into Psychic forces defensive Salamence to keep using Roost, and Psychic dents Rotom-H and Rotom-W a lot, with Psychic into Energy Ball having a good chance of KOing the latter, while Rotom-H just gets U-turned on. Energy Ball lets Victini circumvent counters like Rhyperior and Slowking a bit better, and U-turn is always a good way out of bad matchups like incoming Chansey.
3. The Slowking and Terrakion Issue
| 39 | Slowking | 4.641% |
According to the Usage-Based Stats for March, Slowking will rise to OU, as it surpasses the 4.52% percentage needed. This leaves the tier with basically no counterplay to Victini, since Chansey is horrible against Trick and V-create variants and just gets U-turned on by special HDB. Nihilego, Kommo-o, and other Fire resists get smacked pretty hard by Victini's coverage moves.
Terrakion on the other hand, can offensively pressure Victini extremely well, but is currently being suspect tested and we don't know if it has a good chance to be banned or not. If Terrakion gets banned, Victini loses even more offensive counterplay.
4. The Aftermath
Ok, lets create a hypothetical scenario where Victini gets banned. Now what? Amoonguss is the first mon that comes to mind when thinking about the aftermath of a Victini ban. Very little things can actually break through Amoonguss as easily as Victini. Only Alakazam and Reuniclus come to mind as great Psychic-types that can deal with Amoonguss, specially Safety Goggles Reuniclus, since it negates Spore and Sludge Bomb poison and can setup easily in front of Amoonguss. Kyurem and Mamoswine can still pressure Amoonguss well, especially SubRoost Kyu. Other strong wallbreakers such as Nidoqueen and Choice Specs Primarina can also deal with it. But notice how all of these mons are either forced to run something that negates Spore, or are crippled by Spore. There are probably other mons that would benefit from a Victini ban, but amoon is the biggest one that comes to mind right now.
I'd love to hear some opinions on this aspect of the metagame from other people too.
I have a bit to say about Victini, but I think I'd rather wait until all of the stuff that is expected to happen actually happens before really going into detail about it. Specifically:
I know everyone keeps saying this and that will rise, etc. But nothing is a lock (except Kyurem) to rise - patterns can change in the next 26 days and people could alter usage, meaning we could have a scenario where things DON'T rise that we thought would rise, and other things DO rise that we thought wouldn't rise, and the same goes for drops. Unless something is so far ahead in usage like Kyurem (nothing else is this high), I wouldn't put anything as a lock to leave. Will Slowking PROBABLY leave? Yeah most likely, but there are still 26 days before the verdict is out on that one. Same goes for Skarmory, Zeraora, etc. Not saying others can't speculate, but I'd just personally rather wait to see exactly what we have in place on April 1 before re-analyzing things. You may see a rise in things like Diancie and Sylveon if Slowking leaves, both of which can decently check certain Victini variants (Blue Flare only does about 33% to Sylveon for example, just have to watch out for Band Create which isn't as common anymore), but it also depends on what else leaves and what drops.
Also, Terrakion will PROBABLY get banned, but there's also a chance it won't (you know, since it's not broken '-'), and even if it does get banned, I think usage patterns may alter once it's gone and people may discover other ways of handling Victini that aren't so apparent right now.
I know everyone keeps saying this and that will rise, etc. But nothing is a lock (except Kyurem) to rise - patterns can change in the next 26 days and people could alter usage, meaning we could have a scenario where things DON'T rise that we thought would rise, and other things DO rise that we thought wouldn't rise, and the same goes for drops. Unless something is so far ahead in usage like Kyurem (nothing else is this high), I wouldn't put anything as a lock to leave. Will Slowking PROBABLY leave? Yeah most likely, but there are still 26 days before the verdict is out on that one. Same goes for Skarmory, Zeraora, etc. Not saying others can't speculate, but I'd just personally rather wait to see exactly what we have in place on April 1 before re-analyzing things. You may see a rise in things like Diancie and Sylveon if Slowking leaves, both of which can decently check certain Victini variants (Blue Flare only does about 33% to Sylveon for example, just have to watch out for Band Create which isn't as common anymore), but it also depends on what else leaves and what drops.
Also, Terrakion will PROBABLY get banned, but there's also a chance it won't (you know, since it's not broken '-'), and even if it does get banned, I think usage patterns may alter once it's gone and people may discover other ways of handling Victini that aren't so apparent right now.
Hello guys, it's me, StarFalcon555, here to answer some of Monky25's questions about the future of the meta. Like Codename Magnum, I wasn't able to participate in the suspect thanks to a little thing called College (TM), but I still think I have a good grasp of the meta, so let's go.
Increases
MURDER DOG MURDER DOG MURDER DOG. Terrakion leaving will allow Lycanroc to rise to its glory IoA days as the premier Rock-type wall breaker. Access to a STAB priority move that is boosted by Tough Claws is just nasty. Still don't think it'll become as broken as it was in August thanks to Tangrowth and Amoonguss being everywhere, but still something I expect to become even better.
First the tier's best Dragon-type getting banned, and now the tier's best Fighting-type probably getting banned, both times removing competition? Kommo-o stans like me just keep on winning. Without competition from Terrakion as a strong physical wallbreaker, Kommo-o will become free to run physically offensive sets, such as Swords Dance/Scale Shot, Dragon Dance, and Substitute/Belly Drum. My boy keeps shooting up the ranks, and I am so proud of him.
Big boy Conk also appreciates no longer having to compete with Terrakion as a powerful physical Fighting-type. It still has godawful Special bulk and gets chipped down way too easily, but at least it might actually see some high-ladder usage now.
Decreases
Alas, poor Tentacruel. From a commonplace mon and great Celesteela check to one that's just too frail and weak to keep up with the rest. Writing up the Tentacruel analysis made me realize just how bad this mon has it. Electric, Ground, Psychic, and Dragon types are everywhere, setup sweepers just absolutely sit on this thing, and its attacking stats are so bad that it literally cannot get a single OHKO on any healthy opponent. I genuinely would not be surprised to see this thing drop to RU in April.
Seeing Primarina so low is honestly really surprising to me. With Krookodile and Salamence being everywhere nowadays, Primarina is excellent because it can counter both of them at once. The Sub + Calm Mind set is especially good, turning it into an unkillable monster after a couple of boosts that can only be reliably walled by Amoonguss. Ladder is really sleeping on this thing right now.
The only reason why this mon is still in the top 40 is because of people spamming Moltracer's stall team to get reqs. Like seriously, it is only usable on stall teams and bulky Grasses + Salamence are everywhere. Literal unmon lmaooooo.
If you guys actually read all of this, thanks for listening to my dumb thoughts lololol. Enjoy the rest of your day y'all
I'm going to put these two together because the end of the Rak suspect is imminent and that will have the most impact on the metagame. Keep in mind I am basing these on the assumption that Terrakion will be banned. (Let's be real, it probably will be. If it's not, well just put me in a clown costume and call me BooBoo The Fool)
Increases
MURDER DOG MURDER DOG MURDER DOG. Terrakion leaving will allow Lycanroc to rise to its glory IoA days as the premier Rock-type wall breaker. Access to a STAB priority move that is boosted by Tough Claws is just nasty. Still don't think it'll become as broken as it was in August thanks to Tangrowth and Amoonguss being everywhere, but still something I expect to become even better.
First the tier's best Dragon-type getting banned, and now the tier's best Fighting-type probably getting banned, both times removing competition? Kommo-o stans like me just keep on winning. Without competition from Terrakion as a strong physical wallbreaker, Kommo-o will become free to run physically offensive sets, such as Swords Dance/Scale Shot, Dragon Dance, and Substitute/Belly Drum. My boy keeps shooting up the ranks, and I am so proud of him.
Big boy Conk also appreciates no longer having to compete with Terrakion as a powerful physical Fighting-type. It still has godawful Special bulk and gets chipped down way too easily, but at least it might actually see some high-ladder usage now.
Decreases
Alas, poor Tentacruel. From a commonplace mon and great Celesteela check to one that's just too frail and weak to keep up with the rest. Writing up the Tentacruel analysis made me realize just how bad this mon has it. Electric, Ground, Psychic, and Dragon types are everywhere, setup sweepers just absolutely sit on this thing, and its attacking stats are so bad that it literally cannot get a single OHKO on any healthy opponent. I genuinely would not be surprised to see this thing drop to RU in April.
Seeing Primarina so low is honestly really surprising to me. With Krookodile and Salamence being everywhere nowadays, Primarina is excellent because it can counter both of them at once. The Sub + Calm Mind set is especially good, turning it into an unkillable monster after a couple of boosts that can only be reliably walled by Amoonguss. Ladder is really sleeping on this thing right now.
The only reason why this mon is still in the top 40 is because of people spamming Moltracer's stall team to get reqs. Like seriously, it is only usable on stall teams and bulky Grasses + Salamence are everywhere. Literal unmon lmaooooo.
If you guys actually read all of this, thanks for listening to my dumb thoughts lololol. Enjoy the rest of your day y'all
Terrakion has been banned in a not-so-narrow vote!
Oh no! Anyway..
In all sincerity, you will be missed Rock Bull. I never really got to know you that well but I hope that you prosper in your new life. Please salute Terrakion as he makes his grand exit o7
Edit: forgot to slide this in, but good job council and voters for making this go smoothly and quickly!
In all sincerity, you will be missed Rock Bull. I never really got to know you that well but I hope that you prosper in your new life. Please salute Terrakion as he makes his grand exit o7
Edit: forgot to slide this in, but good job council and voters for making this go smoothly and quickly!
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