Metagame np: Stage 13: Praying Mantis (Scyther banned)

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PU Leader

:sv/scyther:

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thanks to dugza for helping me type this /o/
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Scyther received sizeable support for action in the first tiering survey (in addition to having the least opposition to any action), but it was far and away the Pokemon with the most support for action in our second, qualified survey. With the results from these two surveys in mind, the PU council has decided to suspect test Scyther.

Swords Dance Scyther is an incredibly potent wallbreaker and sweeper. The threat of Technician-boosted STAB Dual Wingbeat combined with Scyther’s great mix of speed and power gives Scyther room to set up in most games, as do its handy set of resistances and how passive our physical walls can be. Many of these walls like Gastrodon, Rhydon, and Coalossal, as well as softer checks like Rotom-H, also struggle to take Scyther on due to its amazing coverage options in Trailblaze and Close Combat. Scyther’s Speed and different sweeping tools in Trailblaze and Quick Attack also make it difficult to reliably revenge kill unless it has already sustained serious damage. Further exacerbating this issue are (a) the dip in viability of faster threats like Choice Scarf Paldean Tauros-F and priority users like Decidueye and (b) non-hyper offense teams thus slowing down outside of Extreme Speed Arcanine, Choice Scarf Florges or Toxtricity, and Hisuian Electrode.

Eviolite sets have been gaining more traction in recent times, especially on more offensive teams, considerably increasing its bulk and providing it significantly more setup opportunities at the cost of no longer being immune to Stealth Rock. Of course, teams featuring Eviolite Scyther commonly employ Pokemon like Taunt Lycanroc or even Hattrem to deny Stealth Rock, preventing a lot of teams from actually exploiting this weakness. Eviolite’s prevalence has not completely phazed out Heavy-Duty Boots either, so you’re not always safe against Scyther even if you do get Stealth Rock up. This along with Scyther's ability to run a myriad of different sets makes it extremely unpredictable. For instance, sets such as Quick Attack with Tera Normal, Tera Blast + Tera Ground, or Trailblaze with Tera Grass require noticeably different counterplay and making the wrong switch and giving the Scyther user one extra turn could end the game then and there. Not to mention, Scyther is also arguably one of, if not the most unpredictable, Pokemon in the tier as far as Tera types go with all of Fire, Water, Steel, Fighting, Grass, Flying, Ground, Electric, and Normal being used to great success. All of these factors make it nigh impossible to predict the exact Scyther set on preview, which tends to heavily reward the Scyther user and force awkward lines from the opposing side.

Scyther is not flawless. It can’t tech its way past everything with just one set, and its many permutations all come with real opportunity cost. For example, without Tera Blast Ground, a healthy Bellibolt can stand up to Scyther without much trouble. If Scyther does opt for Tera Blast Ground, then it’s likely not running Close Combat and thus can’t touch Rotom-H (or more niche Pokemon like Orthworm) and becomes much more reliant on Terastallizing to function. Heavy-Duty Boots variants possess mediocre bulk that can seriously complicate setting up, while Eviolite variants become much less effective in the event that Stealth Rock does go up. Past that, Rocky Helmet and abilities like Aftermath, Static, and Flame Body are common and require that Scyther play carefully to avoid being neutered or chipped into range of revenge killers. Finally, faster threats like Tornadus, Salazzle, and Hisuian Electrode are on the up-and-up, all of which easily force Scyther out if it isn’t in a position to Tera and win.

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Suspect test information:
  • To participate in this supect test, create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in PU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played PU before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • You have to reach a COIL of 2800 in order to get reqs. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 7.
  • This suspect test will last 14 days, concluding on Wednesday, November 27, 2024 at 11:59 PM (GMT-5).
  • Check here to see if you have reqs.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

GXE = Games Required
71 = 343
72 = 173
73 = 116
74 = 88
75 = 71
76 = 59
77 = 51
78 = 45
79 = 41
80 = 37
81 = 34
82 = 31
83 = 29
84 = 27
85 = 25
 
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question: why is coil not displaying for the pu ladder? usually everyone's coil starts showing up immediately after a suspect begins, like this:
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but the pu ladder looks like this:
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the voter page also says that nobody has qualified yet, which strikes me as odd—usually at least one person qualifies within 24 hours of a suspect going up unless it's a particularly inactive ladder, and pu ladder seems fairly active in my experience. so, uh… what gives? has the coil for this ladder just not been implemented yet? should i wait to ladder until coil starts showing up?
 
COIL values should now display (they are for top 500), the suspect was set up incorrectly on PS before but has been corrected. I'm pretty sure it was always being calculated but wasn't visible until now, so this shouldn't have caused any issues for people laddering.

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About Scyther, I'd say I'm on the fence but currently leaning DNB. Trailblaze checkmating most teams given how bad most Choice Scarf users + priority users are right now is one of its two questionable aspects for me. Its number of viable Teras feels somewhat exaggerated to me; many options outside of Fighting, Electric, Ground, and Normal feel impractical/outclassed outside of cheesing a particular matchup or two, which isn't unique to Scyther. Scyther does have greater variability than a lot of our other offensive threats, but it feels so Tera/resource-reliant when you try to properly lean into this that it becomes noticeably less consistent. The holes that Scyther can leave in teams are massive even when it doesn't outright win, but I think its low-ish bulk without Eviolite and vulnerability to all the anti-physical stuff going around gives teams room to minimize this. It's also about as prone to getting Tera'd on and smashed as it is to Tera on something and smash it. Pokemon like Sandaconda, Qwilfish, and Alolan Persian have also started popping up more in tour games/on ladder, and they can all slow Scyther down (and aren't total deadweight when you don't play against Scyther), meaning you're not only stuck with Bellibolt to take the praying mantis on. I think there's room to adapt to Scyther and that it's a Pokemon with lows as low as its highs are high, so I'm not sure that it absolutely needs to be banned.

I'm not 100% anti-ban at all, so I'm looking forward to see how the suspect and the discussion pertaining to it play out. Scyther is very strong and can easily outlast many of its checks when played carefully, and I don't think it always sucks when it tries to diversify its moves or its Teras or anything. I could be convinced to vote ban, even if only to trim some of the offensive bloat down, but right now I'm not super convinced this bug needs to beaten to PUBL.
 
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We’re still working on sorting the COIL issue out, and the scores for people that made new accounts were accidentally wiped. Because of this, we’re extending the suspect test’s deadline. It will now end on Wednesday, November 27, 2024 at 11:59 PM (GMT-5).

(Edit: It should be okay NOW, but those who were laddering before will need to start over. Sorry about that.)
 
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I'm currently leaning towards ban. Just keep it in the back around a strong core and let it mop up late game.

Currently speed tiers are extremely important and 339 is just simply excellent.

With mystery tera and reliable set up on the plethora of bulky, passive cores I just think it's a little too much.
 
I think Scyther is fine. It doesn’t do that well vs some common team structures right now. It’s not rare on the ladder to face offenses with scarf Toxtricity, Mudsdale or Palossand and some priority user like Arcanine, Decidueye or Skuntank that end up revenging it. Balance teams have also been keeping it in check as far as I’m aware. In tour we’ve seen balance teams with Rhydon, Qwilfish, Rotom-Heat, Bellibolt, Coalossal etc, some even bulkier with Ditto to counter sweep it. It's not that it can’t break these mons, but Scyther usually needs to win the SD prediction, not get statused and hope it doesn’t lose too much hp to Rocky Helmet. Personally I don’t see how it’s a better flying type than Guno or Tornadus for example. Defensively it is struggling, as having your ground and fighting immunity packing the weaknesses of the bug type can backfire in the teambuilding process. Providing teams with a good Triple Arrows resistance is for sure good though. Perhaps it is broken depending on the tera type, like with tera Ground having the potential to lure some of its best checks. Its ability to break teams with SD while sweeping with Trailblaze is something to respect. But I don’t think we’ve seen it do that yet and that’s why I’m leaning DNB.
 
Someone made a PS ticket saying they thought they had reqs, but now they don't. We sorted that out, but there may be other people who have this problem.

Any account created after the first time the suspect was created, but before the time the suspect was erroneously ended and a new one was created (i.e. any accounts that at any point during this process said "Yes" for possible to get reqs), has been edited in the database to be valid on the second suspect. If there are still any problems, we'll figure it out, you guys shouldn't have to get reqs twice or anything. Just post here so I in specific can see it.
 
Got reqs using some of the teams I used for Swiss and have to say, having not used Scyther and not particularly struggling with it too much in Swiss thus far, I might lean towards do not ban. I voted to suspect Scyther as a "qualified" person because of my Swiss run, but playing ladder for a while without using it myself has kind of skewed my opinion more favorably for it.

Eviolite Scyther on HO is definitely annoying on paper, as it can set up on a fair amount of stuff and use multiple Tera's to choose what it wants to lose to (spoiler: your opponent always has the Tera that beats you..). However, I used a fair amount of IronPress Regirock and bulky Arcanine and didn't feel like I was really constrained in-game to beat it late. Keeping rocks up vs HO can be tricky depending on if they have Avalugg-Hisui or Tatsugiri as their removal, but generally speaking I didn't really feel like a 100% Scyther was winning games on the spot unless I played poorly overall. If I got behind while trying to manage the other HO goons, that was more often because I misplayed and let something else get a turn to capitalize on, so Scyther was just a beneficiary of its teammates rather than an abuser.

Boots Pivot Scyther is probably the best version to me, capable of still picking spots to click SD and clean while providing some nice utility, but again it just felt a little whelming to play against when using some really good balance cores. You struggle to fit SD on Boots without sacrificing some coverage, and it really needs SD to clean. I think this set would be the reason to vote ban to be honest, as it really fits nicely on a lot of archetypes and the capacity to threaten an SD sweep does have some potential impact in the early- and mid-game, but again it just never felt like it took over a game to the point I didn't think I could do anything better.

Overall, after playing ladder for a bit, I do think the meta is generally skewed towards balance teams built around one or two set up mons, which is kind of true for most SV metagames. I think Scyther is one of the premier threats and easiest to build around relative to its peers, but I don't think it has such a heavy influence in the meta that you're adjusting in the builder and sacrificing anything of importance. Also, Regirock stonks should be way up, that thing is a menace and some of these ladder HO players are stacking Salazzle + 4-5 physical sweepers, which Regirock loves to see.
 
I wanted to make a quick post regarding Scyther after laddering for the suspect. I was very indifferent about Scyther for the longest time, would not have minded if it stayed or went; I was in favor of a suspect given the survey results and the general community sentiment regarding it. However, after laddering for the suspect I'm leaning towards DNB. On paper, it does seem like the most broken Pokemon ever between all the different tera options, stuff like Ground Tera Blast, Trailblaze and the list goes on. However, that doesn't translate to how it performs in-game, more often than not. While it does have a million different tera options, only a few of them like Fighting, Ground and Electric consistently do well while others are for very specific MUs or borderline fishy at best. It also has a case of 4MSS at times having to pick between moves like Trailblaze, Tera Blast, Close Combat, Quick Attack and so on; this is very apparent with the Ground Tera Blast set where its also extremely tera reliant to be threatening. We also have a decent amount of options like Bellibolt, Mudsdale, Rotom-H, Sandaconda, Palossand, Rhydon, Houndstone, (Tera) Wo-Chien and probably more that I'm forgetting that can take hits from it quite well (sometimes depending on coverage). Given the awkward defensive typing and not-so-great bulk it also has trouble finding safe opportunities to setup reliably; while Eviolite sets can patch up the bulk issue, it leaves it very vulnerable to Stealth Rock which can be very very limiting more often than not. At the same time, a noteworthy amount of our offensive options can outspeed it; priority users (Skuntank, Arcanine, Decidueye, Bombirdier etc.) are also very common in the tier which doesn't help it either. Moreover, most teams have Pokemon one or more of Rocky Helmet, Static, Flame Body and Aftermath; all of which Scyther is extremely susceptible to and can severely cripple it. As asa mentioned above, we've also seen less traditional Pokemon like Persian-A, Sableye, Qwilfish, Weezing and more gradually get more usage; all of which also have strong roles outside of checking Scyther.

All that said, I do acknowledge that Trailblaze sets can snowball easily with good positioning while Ground Tera Blast allows it to get past its otherwise would-be checks like Bellibolt. However, I don't think these really push it to a broken or unhealthy level, just another good offensive option in the tier. As such I think I will be voting DNB.
 
After seeing some games and returning to the tier to test the new fancy options, I believe the potential of scyther being an offensive nuisance is definitely pretty unique to the tier when it comes about trying to revenge kill this thing properly. A bit of a Tera hog scyther is, but think that can also be sold as an advantage given you know what could happen next, but from experience most consistent teras are tera fighting, tera ground to bop bellibolt, and tera electric for the added set of resistances but for practical purposes lets just put these 3 options on the scope. Definitely an excellent cleaner, slight chipping and this thing can go to town on any team given how technician makes trailblaze a really serviceable coverage move and it honestly getting the SD + trailblaze isnt that hard given the really good neutral bulk with boots. Very strong in the late-game.

Now is the tier capable of keeping it at bay? I believe so, seeing some neat mons rising to the occasion like Qwilfish and something more neutral like Sandaconda, and the very reliable bellibolt, the tier is currently plagued with efficient physical tanks like the tier has never seen before, and many with options of recovery and that can do other roles for other teams so while Scyther is super annoying, the position isnt as dreadful as I painted in my head. There are a lot of physical defensive good mons at the moment, and a really big prevalence of rocky helmet as an item (which is a very interested development of this generation, a topic for another time?). Scyther isnt throwing the tier to a specific direction either since it doesnt invalidate any archetype by existing after seeing it in practice so there is that too.

Overall I feel the tier can handle it, right now what I feel is lacking is actually competent special walls cause ho boy, I have a culprit for this topic but I will redirecting that to another metagame topic since I think this is the main focus right now, but overall think the tier can evolve to handle scyther sufficiently enough. I think voting DNB at this time is pretty sensible
 
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I recently acquired reqs for the Scyther suspect, and I am still on the fence to be honest, but leaning towards ban after talking to some people in discord and playing a ton recently. I do not think Scyther in a vacuum is broken. It does have set diversity, it does sweep unprepared teams easily, and yes, it does have a very strong eviolite set on HO. However, the natural meta has answers to these sets and it does not warp the meta around it to an extent where I would traditionally want to ban it. Bellibolt was already great, now it is top tier defensively. Rocky Helmet was already a great item, now it has even more utility. This logic can be applied to all of its main answers.

However, I do also think this meta is annoying to build in right now, and I do think that some sort of action needs to be taken to improve the meta. I also believe Scyther functions best on offensive structures which together with its teammates, make building balance and bulky offense very linear and often inconsistent trying to account for those types of teams. This leads to a few questions. If I dont see Scyther as broken on its own but do have an issue with these current Offense/HO structures, then...
1. How would Scyther's absence impact the meta, do I think it would improve or worsen it?
2. If Scyther is not broken on its own but its absence would contribute to solving the problem longterm, does that make banning Scyther worth it?

1. Many things exist in the meta and actively make it less enjoyable or more challenging to build, but that doesn't make it broken. Regardless, if Scyther were to leave the meta, I could see Bellibolt being less "mandatory" on bulky offense/balance structures. I also could see benefit in no more Scyther+Zoro offense structures. It could also create opportunity for some other defensive pieces to be more useful and hopefully add variety in the builder, such as wochien, scrafty, perhaps some ZU mons. Oftentimes, what happens on BO/Balance is Bellibolt is overwhelmed trying to keep scyther in check in addition to keeping tera to trade with it in case scyther pops tera later, and stay healthy answering whatever else it has to in the game. I do think no Scyther will give these structures alternative options in the builder to account for all of the offensive threats in the tier.
2. I do see the potential for it solving the problem longterm. Do I think Scyther is broken on its own? No, but I do still see it as the path towards a better meta. I was originally DNB because I do not think typically a pokemon should be banned if it is not standalone broken. But I don't think anything in this tier is standalone broken right now, I think a culmination of threats is contributing to this overarching issue of over utilized defensive cores and overwhelming offensive structures. Therefore, it makes sense to address the most annoying one first, and take steps further to improve the tier. Ultimately, if the decision to ban something will most likely improve the competitiveness longterm of the tier, I am going to choose that option, and there is always the option to resuspect something in the future.
 
Merry Christmas, PawmotUsed! We'll be having two suspect tours this weekend at the following times:

Saturday, November 23rd - 11:00 AM (GMT -5), hosted by gulch
Sunday, November 24th - 4:00 PM (GMT -5), hosted by leoperi99

Don't miss your chance to earn reqs without needing to ladder (or play some PU if that's what you're more interested in). See you then.
 
Wanted to share my thoughts on this suspect now that I've obtained reqs.
I'm positive that I don't want Scyther to be banned anytime soon, and ESPECIALLY not on its own. This is another case of the Redbull suspect; a mon gains some newfound traction, and before people look towards counterplay, they first seek to ban it. This is another such knee-jerk reaction. After the suspect has been live for a while, it's clear to me that there is enough counterplay to keep this in check. The perceived versatility and unpredictability of it is also greatly exaggerated from reality. Setup Scyther can really only run 4 tera types across its 3 sets that are pretty similar overall, with only 1 move changed. The standard cc/trailblaze set is arguably the most versatile, being able to run either tera fighting to boost cc or electric to avoid a Bellibolt's static proc. The other 2 sets, being quick attack or tera blast, require tera normal and tera ground respectively to function. This Pokemon cannot account for everything, and there are some mons that serve as more consistent checks to it, like helmet Bellibolt, Houndstone, Palossand, Qwilfish, and Mudsdale, as well as others that can soft check some of its sets and switch in safely, like Heattom, Toxtricity, and Uxie.

In addition to being stopped by numerous defensive staples in the current meta, there's also a lot of offensive counterplay to Scyther. Its ability to freely throw off attacks is hindered by the numerous Intimidate users that can switch into it, particularly Redbull and Arcanine. In addition, Scyther is effectively only able to set up on defensive pieces it threatens out. Right now, there's barely any Pokemon in the meta that don't have a super effective move to throw out into it, causing it to effectively cause 50/50s against frailer offensive mons where you either attack into it on sd or switch out of an attack. However, losing said 50/50 is oftentimes worse for the Scyther user, so they're forced to tera anyway if they decide to setup to guarantee they live. In addition to it having a difficult time setting up, there are a plethora of options to revenge kill Scyther. At this point in the meta, practically anything with at least base 60 speed can use a choice scarf, and the surprise factor will often net at least one ko. This has cause there to be a lot of viable or niche scarfers that can revenge kill Scyther. Additionally, Scyther isn't the fastest. Faster mons like Salazzle, Floatzel, (Hisuian)Sneasel, Tornadus, and Lycanroc are able to outspeed it naturally and ko it with powerful attacks. Finally, there is an insane amount of priority users, from Decid to Arc to Grimm to Sableye to Ambipom to every viable Sucker Punch user, and QA isn't koing them first. This high amount of priority means that even after a speed boost, Scyther is still very stoppable. Above all else, Scyther is inconsistent. Its primary attacking option is a flying stab with Brave Bird bp and less accuracy. I've seen more games lost by Scyther missing one dwb than games won by Scyther sweeping.

Note that I have not mentioned items; I'm only considering boots Scyther, as Eviolite lends too much of a hindrance in keeping rocks off and imo doesn't actually give enough extra bulk in return. Often Scyther is only able to live one extra hit from max health, which oftentimes isn't enough to truly matter.

The other argument for Scyther's ban that I've seen is a concern that I myself agree with, in that it would improve the meta by weakening the currently overwhelming force of offense in today's meta. While it could put less strain on building defensive cores and balance the dichotomy, I sincerely doubt that THIS ban would have that impact. In my opinion, there's plenty other mons that put a lot more strain on the builder and are arguably flat out broken. For instance, a common feature that is brought up when discussing Scyther's effect is the core it can form with Zoroark. However, Scyther isn't the problematic part of that core. Before it, the core used Decid, and if Scyther's banned, it will go back to that, or use Pawmot, Bruxish, or Hecid to cause the exact same mind games. If we want to improve the metagame by taking the least out of it, instead look to the Pokemon that have the immediate power that crushes defensive cores like Zoro, Rk9, Florg, Redbull or even something like Toxt, Pawmot, or Torn. If some of those bans happen and the meta is still in shambles, then I will probably support a ban on Scyther. Right now, such a ban won't have as much of an effect as people seem to think.

TLDR: Banning Scyther likely won't help the metagame improve any; it's manageable, doesn't really require extra building to beat it, and there's worse things making offense oppressive.
 
I've just got my reqs and I think I've changed my mind.

I struggled far less with Scyther than with many other scary set up mons currently rampaging in the tier.

Scyther is shut down quite well by several mons in the tier, whether it be static/flame body or priority users, it has a hard time breaking until late game. Bellibolt, Coalossal, Gastro, Arcanine, Nacl (newly found usage) and other priority users all make it difficult for Scyther to clean up. A brief mention as well to Prankster users such as Grimmsnarl and Sableye who can handily cripple it with Twave.

This means that Scyther has to be used very carefully and not deployed until fairly late/when the opponents pokemon are sufficiently chipped, as well as predicting its SD which it sorely needs for breaking power which can prove challenging due to the sheer number of viable checks.

I found that other set up mons, Scrafty, Bastiodon even gave my team a much tougher time. However, this may be due to the fact I was building an effective anti scyth team. In any case, I don't think banning Scyther freshens the meta. It will certainly tank Bellibolt's usage but it's by no means an absolute game changer.

It's a great mon, it's flexible and U turn sets are actually pretty great when combined with Scarf Toxtricity as an offensive core as well as having snowball potential with trailblaze.

However, in conclusion, I think the current state of the meta can handle the little green devil just fine.

Most likely voting DNB
 
upon reading this thread, i feel that most if not all the posts are remarking on scyther at a surface level and not discussing the metagame's implications, only looking at if scyther can be checked in a vacuum. i'd like to add a different perspective that hopefully makes some people reconsider how to view this suspect and why scyther is a strong candidate for a ban.

scyther is not broken in the traditional sense. it has some solid checks, although many people named like palossand, mudsdale, conda, houndstone etc are honestly bad/not very relevant pokemon that have way too many flaws compared to others. to me, the most reliable, meta-relevant scyther checks are electric-types, namely bellibolt. between volt and toxic, as well as its bulk, bellibolt allows for consistent scyther counterplay and regaining momentum from it.

the issue ties into the actual broken pokemon: specs meloetta. it has 0 defensive checks outside of spd sableye (not viable pokemon unless it's facing melo), has ridiculous 100/128 bulk, and effortlessly destroys balance and almost all defensive-leaning teams. if you're running balance, you need to have several switchins to its full coverage while compensating for the lack of longevity you'll have as melo 2hkos basically every wall in the tier with one of its moves, even if it's spd invested. this ties into scyther because bellibolt, who is the most consistent defensive scyther check, is one of the easiest pokemon for melo to abuse. these two pokemon work way too well together -- scyther u turning on bellibolt/other physically defensive pokemon for a free meloetta entry. scyther and melo are both fast, especially the former as there are very few revenge killers faster than 339 speed. tera and even the option to use eviolite can make revenge killing even more difficult. melo on the other hand has incredible bulk and the tera ghost/fight/fire option to make it way harder to revenge kill as well.

this is all to say: specs meloetta is legitimately broken in this tier and it's not even close. you can say in practice that it's manageable but really it isn't on a consistent basis. jyt vs gxe is a good example how if you get one play right with specs melo vs a more balanced/defensive team, the game completely snowballs and tera isn't even helping that much. scyther isn't broken like meloetta, but it's extremely centralizing to the point where it reduces your options to deal with several problematic pokemon, like melo and the recent up-and-coming specs zoroark, by forcing you into bellibolt structures or if you want to try the much worse palossand/houndstone/mudsdale, the story is the same.

in summary, meloetta's brokenness and scyther's extreme centralization are unhealthy forces in the metagame. i am certain that banning scyther at this point in time would improve the metagame substantially and allow builders more freedom in a healthy and highly desirable manner, thus i will be voting ban.
 
Ah it’s actually refreshing to hear someone preach how broken meloetta is, I’ve been saying this for a couple of metagame iterations now.

Previous post raised some valid points to a ban which one should consider.

But for me, personally I’m voting do not ban.
I feel Scyther has always been the embodiment of balance. Always sacrificing that one thing required for it to be a consistent sweeper be it offensive Tera typing, eviolite, priority, pivot.

Has my eyebrow raised while facing Zoroark/Scyther ? Yep can’t even lie but I still consider it above board as it still requires some playing.

Has my eyebrow raised when facing Tera electric eviolite ? Yes to a lesser extent. It falls under the same category as Tauros-blaze’ Bulk up Tera grass in the sense if I could banish it from using this set I would.

But I just think that it is a premiere threat that must be accounted for when building and adequate counterplay and checks exist.
 
leoperi99 said:
That list is only for those who qualified via ladder . Since you qualified from a suspect tour you will be pinged to vote when the voting thread is up
Click to expand...
Does this mean that my message below is of no use?
PorygonBG said:
:Scyther: I'm going to vote DNB for these reasons: Scyther is too weak to status ailments. that's why in my team I have :toxtricity: and :tauros paldea-blaze:. His place is best in a HO because he can sweep if he is well placed (Trailblaze+ SD).
Click to expand...
 
I mean ur just sharing your opnion but this isnt the voting thread. You can join pu discord if your still feeling confused about how suspects work. The voting thread will be up after the deadline to obtain reqs via ladder aka wednesday 27th 11:59pm -5 gmt of november
 
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I will be voting ban on Scyther.

It's easy to get lost in this given that shifts were a while ago and not everyone is really grinding PU at the top level, but the meta is in a bad state right now, probably the worst it's been since DLC 2. While Scyther is absolutely manageable on its own, it's also the biggest contributor to an overabundance of threats that're tanking the ability of decent teams to cover themselves against the breadth of the meta. Since it's been brought up in the thread I'll say this about both, but Scyther and Meloetta are the most restrictive forces in the meta and both have significant buffs being brought with Tera guessing games that I think people underrate. Scyther restricts teams to the same few Pokemon to have reasonable checks, or the same types of offensive structures. Those similar structures then get abused by other brokens, and the whole cycle repeats. It's not a coincidence that the best Scyther checks are owned by Meloetta and the best Meloetta checks are owned by Scyther (this is also true for non-Melo mons being paired with Scyther). We need to do something to make the meta better. I think removing an extremely fast Pokemon that demolishes a wide swath of the tier just with its raw power, that can tera out of many of its stops and facilitates other Pokemon to get even more broken is a step in the right direction. Maybe it won't solve the meta, and we can certainly handle Scyther individually, but when I look at the overall shape of what PU has become then the choice becomes clear.

tldr "I can beat Scyther with Belli and Houndstone and Prankster" is a limited view of the meta that isn't taking into account Scyther's overall impact and the need for change. Think about PU overall, see what it's doing, then vote ban.
 
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