np: Stage 3-4 - Wait why is this so familiar didn't I just go through this what did I

Okay, I laddered for probably less than 25 matches and hit #1 on the ladder. I honestly can't see how people claim that Manaphy isn't Uber. I do full sweeps with Manaphy in a good 2/3 of my matches. The beast just has so few counters that it's easy to scout for them and take them out before bringing Manaphy in late game.
 
Just interested. What set are you using for manaphy? a bulky spread or an all out offensive spread?

There are alot of creative sets flying around out there and i seem to find some aren't working and some are fantastic.
 
I think it's mostly the team it's on, really. For instance, we need to stop trying to bring on the rain with her. Let's face it, among Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Abomasnow (not that the latter two are very popular on suspect right now), there exists too much counter-weather for it to really work. Once I stopped trying to use Rain Dance, I started doing much better with Manaphy. The Life Orb set with 252spe/252spa/4hp works rather incredibly if you can scout for its counters.
 
Top Manaphy Sets IMO:

1.5: Tail Glow Variants-will take down at least one Poke if you manage to get one tail glow without getting hit significantly
1.5: CM Mono Manaphy-is the ultimate stall breaker and provided that its checks/counters are taken care of (Vaporeon, Latias, CM Jirachi), it will destroy teams single-handedly (Better than other set up sweepers like Luke, Gyara, CM Latias imo, but not as good as DD Salamence.)
3: Choice Scarf- Great Utility and Support Pokemon with U-Turn as a great asset to continue to force pressure and using other moves like Surf, Ice Beam, Energy Ball to revenge or late game kill
 
I have not been swept by manaphy yet(had one close one). I think cm jirachi is a very hard counter to manaphy and latias. Most people are pretty unprepared for it, and I run hp:ground so magetzone is soundly beaten. I'm just waiting for a latias to trick me some specs...
 
Quaily said:
I have not been swept by manaphy yet(had one close one). I think cm jirachi is a very hard counter to manaphy and latias. Most people are pretty unprepared for it, and I run hp:ground so magetzone is soundly beaten. I'm just waiting for a latias to trick me some specs...
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What type of CM Jirachi are you using? I'd personally use SubCM Jirachi on this ladder so Latias can't Trick a Specs onto me when I'm behind a Sub. But the Wish CMer is interesting too, since it can actually win a CM war against a Manaphy and Latias too due to the recovery.

But yeah, CM Jirachi is definitely a very good counter to both.
 
enough speed to outpace +nature 95s
timid
leftovers
psychic
hp:ground
thunderbolt
calm mind

If latias does trick specs to me they better hope they have a ground type, I think she's the only poke this set can't hit for neutral damage(I use thunderbolt on her) Tyranitar is a pain but a +1-2 jirachi can usually come out on top vs the scarf version. If not I have lucario.
 
Quaily said:
enough speed to outpace +nature 95s
timid
leftovers
psychic
hp:ground
thunderbolt
calm mind

If latias does trick specs to me they better hope they have a ground type, I think she's the only poke this set can't hit for neutral damage(I use thunderbolt on her) Tyranitar is a pain but a +1-2 jirachi can usually come out on top vs the scarf version. If not I have lucario.
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I don't really see this functioning as a check to Manaphy (as a switch in). It doesn't outspeed timid max speed manaphy, which last test was the majority of tg manaphy. You take about 61% assuming you get hit by a tg'd surf. Then another 41% after the first cm, during this turn you're free to thunderbolt for pretty decent damage if you barely survive (never happens when SR is up, and is very rare otherwise). Then you die the next turn.

I tried something similar last test with a max hp 330 speed, rest in sp def latias. The idea was to cm before you got hit by a tg boosted ice beam. Then t-bolt it twice for the KO, it also functioned as my late game sweeper. I think I fought against your 5 water team in a super long battle with that team. In any case, if the manaphy tries to stat up along side the latias, manaphy always loses. The latias also won like 20-40% of the time if it came in with perfect health without SR or sandstorm if the Manaphy chooses to TG (on the switch), then ice beam for the KO. Needless to say I switched to blissey (this was a stall team).

I plan on taking part in this round of testing sometime tonight. I'll probably start off playing some stall to get a first impression of the metagame, then test tg manaphy once I've seen what checks people are using for it.
 
Okay, I laddered for probably less than 25 matches and hit #1 on the ladder. I honestly can't see how people claim that Manaphy isn't Uber. I do full sweeps with Manaphy in a good 2/3 of my matches. The beast just has so few counters that it's easy to scout for them and take them out before bringing Manaphy in late game.
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I don't know what kind of manaphy sets you are using but I am using a standard life orb tail glow manaphy and I hardly ever sweep. As for counters- Magnezone and rotom-A clean the floor with this thing. There are a ton of pokemon who can just switch in and then revenge kill manaphy. While it may be easy to take out Manaphy's main counters it can be difficult to take out all of the different pokemon who can KO her. Manaphy seems as OU as many of the other pokemon I use in this regard. I don't doubt that manaphy can sweep but so can Infernape and Tyranitar. I think that Manaphy's effectiveness basically comes down to the skill of the player and the usability of the set. Also it seems that there are far fewer people playing this round than the lost round of testing. On that note I have also seen some really cool sets that have done some serious damage to my team and yet are not uber in my opinion.
 
Has anyone actually tried Specs Latias as a lead?? It's so fun just starting the match spamming +1 Draco Meteors. It does really well against bulky leads like Swampert and Heatran. DM does at least 80% to Swampert if you're using Timid, and has about 1/3 chance to flat out OHKO if you're running Modest. Surf OHKOs Heatran. It also forces Azelf to explode the turn after he sets up SR, meaning you can just switch to a ghost after he sets up SR.
 
shrang said:
Has anyone actually tried Specs Latias as a lead?? It's so fun just starting the match spamming +1 Draco Meteors. It does really well against bulky leads like Swampert and Heatran. DM does at least 80% to Swampert if you're using Timid, and has about 1/3 chance to flat out OHKO if you're running Modest. Surf OHKOs Heatran. It also forces Azelf to explode the turn after he sets up SR, meaning you can just switch to a ghost after he sets up SR.
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What's so special leading with a specs latias, try leading with a specs salamence, you'll most likely get the same results, no?
 
My experiences with Rain Manaphy are about the same as everyone else's, not so hot with Ttar around, but otherwise, it remains largely unopposed by anything other than Latias (though it might not seem that way since those two are something of a dynamic duo). Due to multitudinous set up and prediction issues, I've decided to revisit that strategy as another time and see if my rather dubious presumptions about a full-on sweeper set hold any water.

I've fiddled around with Heart Swap some (well, more like a lot), and it's a nasty surprise for sweepers. Any remotely bulky set should be able to pull it off with ease. Even if it isn't much help vs. stall teams, it can ruin offensive teams pretty badly just stealing a boost or two, and even shift a lategame sweep in your favor. I'd recommend it for any players looking to experiment or try something new to give Heart Swap a shot and see how well it works for you.
 
shrang said:
No, you can Trick things, which sets it apart from Mence.
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No but you'll be spamming draco-metor's, surf's, which only make your pursuit bait after, you'll have a dead latias, I really don't think you'll get the chance to trick so it wouldn't even matter if you had that option or not.
 
Ah, you never know. There are quite a lot of bulky leads around who won't want to get Tricked Specs. Swampert, Hippowdon, Roserade, Gliscor and Uxie all hate being Tricked Specs (Roserade maybe not, but it limits its usefulness). People might get the drift I'm using a Choiced Latias, so they might go for the early Stealth Rock and get Tricked some Specs, so if I'm feeling ballsy, I can catch suicide Azelfs, DS Azelfs by surprise with Trick, and if I'm really in the mood, I might even Trick Metagross (MM won't OHKO), Aero if they go for the quick SR and if I really feel like an idiot, I might even Trick Tyranitar thinking I'll switch and set up SR. Trick can come in very handy.
 
shrang said:
Ah, you never know. There are quite a lot of bulky leads around who won't want to get Tricked Specs. Swampert, Hippowdon, Roserade, Gliscor and Uxie all hate being Tricked Specs (Roserade maybe not, but it limits its usefulness). People might get the drift I'm using a Choiced Latias, so they might go for the early Stealth Rock and get Tricked some Specs, so if I'm feeling ballsy, I can catch suicide Azelfs, DS Azelfs by surprise with Trick, and if I'm really in the mood, I might even Trick Metagross (MM won't OHKO), Aero if they go for the quick SR and if I really feel like an idiot, I might even Trick Tyranitar thinking I'll switch and set up SR. Trick can come in very handy.
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Ok, first of all if you do use trick you lose the power of specs that was supplying to you, would you still cause the threat that specs was helping you with, maybe not. I see this no difference from a scarf Jirachi, scarf uxie tricking on their scarf and crippling the opponent. The opponent gets their stealth rock up, you can not longer cause a threat to T-tar/scizor/metagross/lol blissey no tricking an choice item to it anymore) you don't have that power to hurt them as they'll switch in with ease and finish you.

Either way if you do go straight for attacking, you'll just get revenged killed after =P
 
Yeh, I guess. I'm only messing around with it, and it's just quite surprising it's not losing me matches or anything like that (I haven't lost a match since I made the change), and it doesn't seem like a weak part of the team. That's kinda strange, because it was just some random way for me to try out Specs Latias on my team, and it's not really a detriment to my team at all. Oh well, probably just goes to show that leads aren't the most important things in a good team, I guess.
 
Philip7086 said:
Okay, I laddered for probably less than 25 matches and hit #1 on the ladder. I honestly can't see how people claim that Manaphy isn't Uber. I do full sweeps with Manaphy in a good 2/3 of my matches. The beast just has so few counters that it's easy to scout for them and take them out before bringing Manaphy in late game.
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No disrespect phil {and I mean it... your reputation preceeds you}


Cant that be said about many pokemon in OU?

{Mence, Latias, Gyara, Scizor etc}
 
PK Gaming said:
No disrespect phil {and I mean it... your reputation preceeds you}


Cant that be said about many pokemon in OU?

{Mence, Latias, Gyara, Scizor etc}
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Well, considering the fact that I think Salamence and Latias are Uber, yes, the first two fall under the same category. As for Gyarados and Scizor, they both have a plethora of Pokemon who can stop them in OU, and some of which are not easy to take out by any means. Manaphy's, Latias's, and Salamence's (though Mence isn't a suspect) counters are very slim and easy to remove. That's partially why they're Uber in my book; they sweep a huge portion of the metagame with little effort.
 
Philip your reputation as an excellent battler preceeds you ,but I think that Manaphy and Latias have a lot of counters many of which are not easy to remove. Manaphy and Latias are both countered by rotom-A, and both can have trouble with gengar. Tyranitar can do a lot of damage to Latias while using its massive Special Defense to take surfs and draco meteors. Latias also struggles against scizor and anything with pursuit. Manaphy and Latias also have problems against Raikou who is faster than both of them and also has higher offenses. The list doesn't end there I know of many other powerful ,and frankly, difficult to remove counters. In my experience I almost never see manaphy or Latias sweeps. They more often to sweep less than the other members of their teams. I think that a lot of your success ,Philip, comes from your skill as a battler and not necessarily from the power of your pokemon.
 
Lockeness said:
Philip your reputation as an excellent battler preceeds you ,but I think that Manaphy and Latias have a lot of counters many of which are not easy to remove. Manaphy and Latias are both countered by rotom-A, and both can have trouble with gengar. Tyranitar can do a lot of damage to Latias while using its massive Special Defense to take surfs and draco meteors. Latias also struggles against scizor and anything with pursuit. Manaphy and Latias also have problems against Raikou who is faster than both of them and also has higher offenses. The list doesn't end there I know of many other powerful ,and frankly, difficult to remove counters. In my experience I almost never see manaphy or Latias sweeps. They more often to sweep less than the other members of their teams. I think that a lot of your success ,Philip, comes from your skill as a battler and not necessarily from the power of your pokemon.
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All of the situations that you stated are only true if Manaphy or Latias have already killed something beforehand. Gengar isn't switching into either Manaphy or Latias due to its shit defenses. Tyranitar, unless it's running a specially defensive spread, will get 2HKOed by either Draco Meteor or Surf after Stealth Rock, and the same goes for Scizor. (Don't bring up the ScarfTar argument. You only win 50% of the time anyways.) Raikou sure as hell isn't switching into Specs Latias either, and won't enjoy taking +2 Surfs from Manaphy.

Personally, the problem that I find with the suspects is not that they are necessarily capable of sweeping on their own, but that their counters and checks are so easily exploited which in turn makes sweeping with the suspects much easier. In the case of Latias, I personally like to lean more towards the support clause though, since I hardly ever sweep with Latias. (I KO or cripple plenty of Pokemon with Choice Specs Draco Meteor, but I don't actually use it to sweep).
 
Lockeness said:
Philip your reputation as an excellent battler preceeds you ,but I think that Manaphy and Latias have a lot of counters many of which are not easy to remove. Manaphy and Latias are both countered by rotom-A, and both can have trouble with gengar. Tyranitar can do a lot of damage to Latias while using its massive Special Defense to take surfs and draco meteors. Latias also struggles against scizor and anything with pursuit. Manaphy and Latias also have problems against Raikou who is faster than both of them and also has higher offenses. The list doesn't end there I know of many other powerful ,and frankly, difficult to remove counters. In my experience I almost never see manaphy or Latias sweeps. They more often to sweep less than the other members of their teams. I think that a lot of your success ,Philip, comes from your skill as a battler and not necessarily from the power of your pokemon.
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To be honest, Lockeness, I don't really see where you're coming from here at all. Rotom-A isn't a particularly good answer to either Manaphy or Latias; it is outsped by both, so I imagine you probably have in mind Scarf Rotom-A...? Since Modest Scarf Rotom-A with max special attack is the strongest a Rotom-A is going to get, it's worth pointing out that Thunderbolt will only do 43% - 50.9% to Wacan Manaphy, while a +2 Surf is guaranteed to OHKO in return. So if Rotom-A comes in on Manaphy, the winner won't be Rotom-A. Similarly, Rotom-A has absolutely no business switching into Latias at all: in the best case scenario it takes 53.7% - 63.6% from switching in on Specs Surf; if it switches in on Draco Meteor it is guaranteed to be OHKOed. Even if Rotom survives, Latias is free to switch out with no penalty, most likely to Tyranitar, which will simply Pursuit Rotom to death (or even worse, use Dragon Dance....). Gengar does even less to Manaphy than Rotom-A does, so I hardly see how Gengar is a factor against Manaphy; against Latias you speedtie at best, and if Latias wins, Gengar dies. Of course, in order to kill Latias Gengar needs to use Shadow Ball, which will be an issue if the other team has a living Scarf Tyranitar (as most Suspect teams seem to). Of course, Gengar can't switch in on even unboosted attacks from Manaphy or Latias regardless. Tyranitar is a little more complicated, since ScarfTar does deal with Latias about as well as anything does; however even ScarfTar will take 59.6% - 70.2% if it switches in on Draco Meteor (all of my Specs Latias calcs assume Timid; Modest Latias is terrible). So yes, Scarf Tyranitar deals pretty well with Latias, though it will mostly like need to sacrifice itself in the process (Pursuit only 2HKOs if Latias stays in, and the second Draco Meteor will do 29.8% - 35.4%). If Latias has already killed something with Draco Meteor Scizor is a pretty good answer, but if Scizor switches straight in it risks getting 2HKOed by Draco Meteor, to say nothing of Surf (with Stealth Rock up). Even so, it isn't certain to kill Latias unless it Pursuits and Latias switches, in which case it gives another threat a chance to set up pretty easily. Raikou is admittedly pretty good in Suspect considering that it weakens Tyranitar, can set up on a -1 Latias (although it doesn't kill Latias this way), and neither Suspect can switch into it. However, it can't switch into either Suspect either, as a LO Thunderbolt will do only 27.2% - 32.5% to Wacan Manaphy, while a +2 Surf will do 80.4% - 95% to Raikou. In terms of their being many other powerful and difficult to remove counters, I would rather like to know what they are; the only two actual concerns to Manaphy and Latias that you didn't mention are Blissey and Snorlax, which aren't big problems for Tyranitar or even a Pokemon I've used with a pretty good success rate in Suspect, Dugtrio. Yes, I know, not having counters does not make a Pokemon automatically Uber. But I think it should be a factor when evaluating a Pokemon's offensive power if nothing can even switch in relatively safely!
 
I didn't really plan it this way, but manaphy has 0 safe switch ins on my team except latias locked into surf. I've had no issues at all with it and have only lost 1 poke because I went with thunderbolt instead of draco meteor and it had a wacan berry. A couple people are using lead manaphys which is kind of annoying, but my azelf's purpose in life is to set up screens and die horribly. It's risky to start setting up screens because it could try to TG if I don't taunt. My #1 enemy this suspect is paraflinch jirachi, and I realize the irony of me saying this while using a paraflinch togekiss. I've seen probably 5 teams with this thing and it never ends well.
 
Anyone tried this set on Manaphy??

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 172 HP/220 Spd/116 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Rain Dance
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Ice Beam/Energy Ball

This set kind of fuses the Cro-Phy set and the Sub-Glow set together. What is going for this set is the ability to set up on walls while retaining as much offensiveness as possible. Since you're not making Subs, you don't have to worry about half your EVs being piled into HP to make 101 HP Subs. Instead, this set can set up on Blissey without having to make Subs, as the Rain cures any status that she decides to throw at you. The HP EVs are there to give you a decent amount of bulk, enough to let you have a good chance of surviving Timid Specs Latias' Draco Meteor (After SR and Leftovers recovery). You don't have to worry about Modest Latias, as the Speed used allow you to outspeed it and have a reasonable chance to OHKO with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock. After a Tail Glow, Manaphy reaches 530 Special Attack, and if the Rain is falling, Surf is slightly stronger than a SubPetaya Torrent'd Empoleon's Surf, so you don't even have to worry about stuff like Suicune to much either. Of course Vaporeon walls this set (Still), so if you think you can handle Latias, you may replace Ice Beam with Energy Ball.

Also, I have noticed that Shaymin is quite effective in this metagame, especially Scarfed. Seed Flare OHKOs Manaphy (Unless it has Calm Minded, but the Special Defense drop can occur which could help you out). I've been using a Scarfed Shaymin to quite a bit of success, as it can check DD Salamence with HP Ice (albeit unreliably due to the Speed tie), SD Luke with Earth Power (Extremespeed will not OHKO), and weakened Latias.
 
Okay a little clarification on what I said earlier. When I talk about rotom-A I am talking about the scarfed versions. Sorry for not making that clear. As for other powerful counters. I have used magnezone to great sucess by revenge killing manaphy after it's tail glow boost. What good is power if your not around to use it? Yes on paper I realize that manaphy is very strong with a tail glow under it's belt however I find that by predicting correctly and being prepared I can keep manaphy from being anything more than an oft seen annoyance. As for Raikou I actually have found that with there many times where I can get in a free calm mind and then sweep with t-bolt and shadow ball. I hope this clarifies my position a little more, if not I am fine with explaining it further.
 
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