np: Stage 3 - Family Reunion ("This Is Why I Created" Remix)

[Mr.E]

Way to make me post super-long. Luckily, Nubchos has already adequately responded to some of the later stuff. EDIT: Oh yay, new page too.

Garchomp will almost never use Earthquake on a forced switch. Even if they suspect a Steel-type (not including Bronzong or Skarmory), the risk of dealing no damage on a Flying/Levitate switch and doing no damage isn't worth taking. That's especially important for Choice sets, as it forces Earthquake into "finisher only" use to avoid giving friends like Gyarados, Salamence, Latias a free turn.

BLAGH BLAGH BLAGH SAME TIRED GARCHOMP ARGUMENT MAKE IT STOP

As far as Skymin is concerned, the closest thing to a "counter" it has is Protect/Wish Blissey. Even it can't switch into Specs Seed Flare or has to switch off to a second resistant/defensive pokemon to stall out the SubSeed set.

A pokemon's usability in Ubers is completely irrelevant to OU. Forretress, the Uber?

Were you paying attention during the Great Search for Garchomp Counters back in 2008? Only four things counter Yache Chomp: Skill Link Cloyster, Choice Scarf Cresselia, Choice Scarf Suicune, and Choice Band Rhyperior. Other than Rhyperior, these are all complete gimmicks that cannot support their team in any way other than countering Garchomp. The Cresselia you mentioned cannot OHKO Garchomp with Ice Beam and does not outspeed it without Choice Scarf, while being 2HKOed by boosted Outrage. Latias can obviously not switch into Outrage and is doomed if Garchomp is holding the Haban Berry.

Lots of things have no "counter" by the definition we use these days, MixMence being the most prominent other example. (Support pokemon in general are also very difficult to "counter" but with a faster Taunt, since their focus isn't on dealing damage.) And no BS about Garchomp being "reusable" since it's usually forced to take a Yache-weakened Ice attack for 3/4 of its health to successfully set up and kill anything to begin with. (It can't set up on Blissey without Yache, Cresselia would outright "counter" without Yache, and so on.) And does it effortlessly sweep teams once it is set up? Not without Sand Veil causing multiple misses; Sand Stream isn't even active in every other battle.

Haban Berry or not, Garchomp dies to Specs Meteor anyway and Latias is faster. (Does work against Scarf varieties, though.) Stick with the Yache Berry.

Liberal usage of Reflect can also stymie Garchomp, not to mention most any other pure physical attacker. Toxic Spikes, as already mentioned, destroys Garchomp's set-up potential.

If you need to revenge kill it, it's too late: because Garchomp has already gotten a targeted kill on one of your team's key members.

Having not experienced it nor being savvy with previous arguments, drawing a conclusion based on the last 20 posts of debate is asinine. At any rate, Garchomp's ability to kill cannot be "targeted." It does not have Arena Trap, Magnet Pull, Pursuit and can therefore not choose what to kill.

It's actually interesting to try to imagine the Uber Characteristics in this sense, too. Instead of being "capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort," you can think of Garchomp as being able to to this "regardless of what information is known about the opponent's team." A pokemon with the Offensive Characteristic would be more likely to sweep through a completely unknown team than a pokemon without it. "Effort" can almost be analogous to the "processing of information," and therefore "little effort" is either without that information (an unknown team) or without having to process information (fewer "guessing" scenarios as described above).

This is a good paragraph and bears repeating, though I don't think it applies to Garchomp any more than it does some other still-OU pokemon.

 

[BattleForTheSun]

Having not experienced it nor being savvy with previous arguments, drawing a conclusion based on the last 20 posts of debate is asinine. At any rate, Garchomp's ability to kill cannot be "targeted." It does not have Arena Trap, Magnet Pull, Pursuit and can therefore not choose what to kill.

Of course I've only just started getting into this, but I don't believe that disallows me to post my opinion, does it? :)

Anyway, I'm going to give an example that relates to my own current team. I'm using DD Salamence as a wallbreaker, since after a DD, what are you going to do when I start Outraging? You switch in your Skarmory/Bronzong/whatever Steel wall (or other physical wall) you have, like everybody does. My strategy: I sacrifice Salamence in order to dent these Steels as hard as I can, so that they're one obstacle less in the way of a Tyranitar sweep, which my team is centered around. Garchomp could function in a similar way on my team, even more effective, since 1 SD > 1 DD in terms of wallbreaking power.

So indeed, Mence and Chomp do not "target" their kills with Arena Trap/Magnet Pull/etc., but if a team needs a physical wall-breaker, Mence/Chomp are incredibly effective in "targeting" and destroying these walls. Again, I'm not half as experienced as anyone here, but this is just my 2c.

 

[nyczxjay]

I was just wondering, would the voting occur anytime soon? I'm not trying to rush anyone or anything, but it feels like this test has been going on for a long time with no results and it also feels like the qualifying rounds for voting eligibility has ended a while ago too. I'm obviously not going to be voting (I played on suspect in the beginning but stopped) but I'm quite anxious to see how the results will turn out.

 

[BattleForTheSun]

I'm wondering the same thing. I PM'd Jumpman16 and he told me "the numbers are being fixed up and will be ready soon", but he gave no further information... so I don't know when the results will be made public, or where to find them.

*is confused*

 

[lordkira]

I'm wondering the same thing. I PM'd Jumpman16 and he told me "the numbers are being fixed up and will be ready soon", but he gave no further information... so I don't know when the results will be made public, or where to find them.

*is confused*

I didn't know the voting process was actually over :/

 

[nyczxjay]

I didn't know the voting process was actually over :/

The voting process didn't even start yet. They haven't posted who's eligible to vote yet. Apparently they're still fixing the list up. So this is basically what's left to do:

1) Post list of voters
2) Voters have to confirm themselves
3) Voters vote.

 

[Jumpman16]

yeah doug has to finalize the numbers again, im sorry this has taken so long

 

[lordkira]

The voting process didn't even start yet. They haven't posted who's eligible to vote yet. Apparently they're still fixing the list up. So this is basically what's left to do:

1) Post list of voters
2) Voters have to confirm themselves
3) Voters vote.

I know. I was just confused since the guy seemingly said the voting process was over.

 

[Misa]

Choice Band Rhyperior. Other than Rhyperior,

Rhyperior? I thought SD Earthquake can OHKO Rhyperior even with max HP/Def EVs? Also I want to note that ScarfMetagross can switch into SD Garchomp and explode on its face, so it "technically" is a counter.

but an overpowering wall-breaker in OU as he 2HKOs anything and everything in the tier with two different sets (CB and SD). The fact there is no safe switch-in means that you're probably going to have to sacrifice something in order to revenge kill him. That means you lose your check/counter to something and numerous other threats can sweep because of it

Salamence and Dragonite does this as well since they have more diversity in terms of movepool than Garchomp. If there's an only argument for Garchomp to be moved to Ubers, it's that Garchomp is immune to Thunder Wave, which both Salamence and Dragonite get crippled by.

 

[pkmn1000]

Rhyperior? I thought SD Earthquake can OHKO Rhyperior even with max HP/Def EVs? Also I want to note that ScarfMetagross can switch into SD Garchomp and explode on its face, so it "technically" is a counter.
Salamence and Dragonite does this as well since they have more diversity in terms of movepool than Garchomp. If there's an only argument for Garchomp to be moved to Ubers, it's that Garchomp is immune to Thunder Wave, which both Salamence and Dragonite get crippled by.

IF you explode techincally you've still lost someone countering him. Also dragonite gets heal bell.

 

[Misa]

Well, I just noticed that YacheChomp technically doesn't OHKO Rhyperior with Earthquake even with Swords Dance, but Earthquake always 2HKOs Rhyperior with Choice Band so technically, Rhyperior isn't really a counter imo.

 

[Jumpman16]

We finally have the comprehensive data from Doug, so I will be letting you all know who has passed our criteria when we are finished analyzing it. Thank you very much for your patience.

 

[Imran]

while I never found it overwhelming when using Skymin myself (because of my shit luck).

This is not you. If you are playing with Skymin, you are trying to play with something that works ~60% of the time, and make it work, right? So 60% of the time you get the flinch you want and 60% of the time you don't, you have a large sample, so results are less random, and you come to the conclusion that Skymin is unreliable.

When playing against Skymin, the sample is a lot smaller, so you may get extreme results with nothing to compare them with. That, coupled with the fact that it is human nature to remember bad, and not good, means that you remember the "negative" encounters you have had with opposing Skymin more than the positive ones.

So at least get the stats right. Skymin is unreliable for everyone who tries to use it, and is occasionally a bitch to use when it is used against you.

 

[panamaxis]

If when using skymin you are solely relying on it to get the flinches, you might need to rethink how you are using it. Does Skymin need the flinches to work? In some cases, (revenge killing maybe) yes, but not necessarily.

 

[d2m]

If when using skymin you are solely relying on it to get the flinches, you might need to rethink how you are using it. Does Skymin need the flinches to work? In some cases, (revenge killing maybe) yes, but not necessarily.

Skymin doesn't need flinches to be effective, I used a specs Skymin to revenge kill things, and it did a remarkable job. The flinches do allow it to occasionally beat it's counters. I flinched a SpD Skarmory to death, flinched a Blissey to death, etc.

 

[Aeolus]

I've completed the data analysis. I will post the final summary and the list of voters soon.