Metagame np: Stage 3: Savage (Tauros Suspect Test, Lilligant ban post #30)

[Morge]

WOOOOO. Komala brings a lot to the tier, most notably being a rapid spinner who can actually beat common spinblockers. Status immunity is very nice and its movepool is in general very good with a lot of strong options. It feels kinda hard to fit everything you want on one set but thats more because it has so many good tools rather than needing too many moves on one set. Incredible addition to the tier that opens up a lot of options due to not needing to run boots on everything all the time.

The other spinner and yeah, that typings really gross. BUT, Ice/Rock is a good dual stab with strong stab moves, its got high attack and absurd defence with reliable recovery. If you're willing to use your tera on it I could see this being a good option but the complete dependence on tera makes it difficult to fit.

The difference in speed between this and regular tauros is important, while base 100 is still fast we have enough mons that outspeed it to where its more managble. That being said this mon is still kinda cracked, very powerful close combats and great coverage all around with the ability to set up with bulk up. Not convinced it's broken but I could see it being a bit silly.

Very glad this came back now. Sucker punch is good, spikes are good, and its a nice check to the waters and importantly to the last 2 drops. Also its just fun.

Raichu with a very scary stab combo. Cacturne is basically the only thing that can take on its stab combo (Dugtrio-Alola also resists it but just gets nuked by surf). Surge surfer makes it even scarier but that requires you to use pincurchin so its probably not an actual concern. Definitely a mon to keep an eye on.

Especially keep an eye on this fucker. One turn is all this needs to just steal a game. Of course this depends on how easily it can get that set up turn, its not exactly the bulkiest mon out there and needs half its hp to actually set up, but once it does unless you have a cacturne or sucker punch you probably lose. Without that set up it seems pretty mediocre, its quite slow and while it hits pretty hard I struggle to see why I would use that over basculin. Very scared of this mon

Excellent drops this time that I think are overall very good for the meta, having real hazard removal is big. Enjoy the meta while it lasts because home drops reach us next month, so thats gonna be fun.

 

[pokeclysm]

If nothing else, getting actually good spinners is going to make PU a lot more fun, because now you don't have to run boots on everything.

Zangoose should make good use of it, since it wants to run toxic orb for the 50% boost. Having hazard removal means it won't be worn down by hazards and thus can stay in longer. Unfortunately the current slate of spinners will make it so that combo is vulnerable to fighting types, but there are many good ghosts so that isn't much of a concern. Overall I'm excited for this meta before HOME effectively upends the tier.

 

[gum]

i'm honestly quite disappointed paldean tauros survived the slate, to me it feels very clearly broken - the kind of broken we've only dealt with twice this generation with the oricorios and then lilligant, and i think letting it roam free for the finals of our most important team tour was a mistake, and now potentially also ladder tour playoffs

choice band has no counter, and really it always feels good into any matchup. 110 attack combined with that flawless coverage and great stab mean it'll always pull its weight. getting a prediction wrong means very little when whatever attack you click is bound to do solid damage, and this is especially true when you realize the only pokemon that can pretend to switch into you is spiritomb, everything else is useless after one good prediction. i don't think this is a balanced interaction to have, when the pokemon that forces those exact predictions reaches an amazing speed tier and has the bulk to comfortably trade with the rare faster pokemon we have that aren't psychic alolan raichu, while not even being useless afterwards thanks to how fast it is. people mention misdreavus, dachsbun, and swalot as pokemon that can hold it off for a bit, but the former is an assurance away from no longer existing, while the latter two still require a solid enough ghost type teammate in the back; dachsbun switches in once vs iron head and then suddenly dies to close combat next time, and the same goes for swalot (if tauros clicks earthquake). i know i already said it but i really can't stress enough how its speed and bulk make it so most of these interactions don't feel punishing at all for the tauros user, when it gets many chances every game to click buttons. due to this, to me it feels like your coverage options feel more like a luxury than a necessity; close combat + 3 of assurance, stone edge, earthquake, iron head feel like all it needs regardless of the matchup

bulk up sets can use like, 4 different tera types (fire, fairy, steel, electric) - all of these beating "counterplay" to choice band sets, counterplay that can sometimes even become setup fodder. it can break for itself and very easily reverse matchups, while little wants to deal with a tauros after a bulk and a trailblaze (which it can usually achieve thanks to its bulk). i think it differentiates itself from every other setup sweeper we have due to its consistency; tera feels more like a bonus than something you're going to have a hard time sweeping without, and it's guaranteed to perform well every game regardless

lastly, i really dislike what it does in the builder. its sheer strength often means you have to dedicate multiple slots to tackle it, a task that makes it hard to fit answers to different threats and makes certain things like klawf and perrserker harder to justify, as they're now tauros fodder. really, the closest you can get to being safe vs tauros is spiritomb, a pokemon that is very easy to take advantage of and wear down, while not even being a reliable answer to a decent amount of bulk up variants. most counterplay people have mentioned in conversations over discord and the room, as well as voting reasonings, has been offensive counterplay. this sort of counterplay is unreliable, considering out of all of our faster pokemon outside of psychic alolan raichu (alolan persian, (alolan) dugtrio, electrode, and pyroar) don't do enough damage and lose the 1v1, with the dugtrios even being setup fodder to bulk up sets with intimidate being taken into account. scarf pokemon like basculin and haunter lose the 1v1, while tauros can just come back in later. scarf basculin can also end up being setup fodder, anyway. rotom-frost is slightly better vs tauros, because volt switch + trick can at least force an unboosted tauros to think twice before clicking trailblaze. obviously all of this is irrelevant once tauros has clicked trailblaze anyway, and note that all of these interactions only account for tauros pre-tera. i truly believe not using it puts you at a disadvantage, it forces progress like nothing else we have

tl;dr: lackluster defensive and offensive counterplay that doesn't overlap much between sets, finds a lot of chances between bulk / intimidate + coverage + speed. very low risk pokemon with very high reward

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

With the drops of Raichu-A and Veluza, I wonder if Indeedee-F will see a rise in usage to start enabling them. The Psy Terrain support is great against the sucker punches being thrown around, allowing Raichu-A and +2 Veluza to do their speedy things. Of course, Persian-A is still fast as balls, but with Pauros currently in the tier, it won't be as much of an issue. Terrain extender Indeedee plus NP Raichu-A is especially a combo I want to see played with (I won't play with it cause I ain't that good lol).

Some Raichu-A Calcs for fun :) (All are +2 in terrain with speed boosting nature, generic sets on PS calculator)

+2 252 SpA Raichu-Alola Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Whiscash in Psychic Terrain: 274-324 (64.6 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Raichu-Alola Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Carbink in Psychic Terrain: 166-196 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Raichu-Alola Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gogoat in Psychic Terrain: 253-298 (56.2 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Raichu-Alola Psychic vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Gogoat in Psychic Terrain: 246-289 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Raichu-Alola Psychic vs. 216 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus in Psychic Terrain: 231-273 (73.3 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Misdreavus Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raichu-Alola: 186-218 (71.2 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sorry for the wall of calcs...got a little carried away.

What else are y'all experimenting with?

 

[Bella]

So before stuff happens, i decided to make a post about my thoughts on the drops after finally getting a feel for them.

Lets start with what i consider the big 3 drops:

You know... he does not feel that broken? In general, Veluza is pretty hard to set up with Fillet away with so much Persian A and Knock Off and Alolan Raichu and shit running around, makes it hard to get a safe opening. Choice sets are fine but they either feel too slow or too weak (Plus 70 Speed on a Scarfer is like pretty meh lol). Might be broken in the future, but atm i would vote DNB on this.


Very cool mon, basically semi better Raichu-K. The Stab combo is actually really nice, only Cacturne and Duggy A resist both of its stabs in the tier but aside from that it really does not feel broken? It seems pretty nice as NP Sweeper and an Encore Pivot, but its not busted by any means. Surge Surfer is cool and all, but being forced to use Pinchurchin is ass, i like Psyterrain with Indeedee or Grassy Terrain with Thwacky more atm. Its fine for now, can see it also getting broken in the future though.


This is a piece of shit. Choice Band nukes everything with Assurance or CC not named Spiritomb or like, a Tera Fairy Persian Alola. Choice Scarf is a pretty nice Speed Control option. What pushes it over for me is the Bulk Up Trailblaze set though, its so difficult to beat if it BUs and having coverage for literally anything in the tier is kinda ridiculous. Please ban this thing on Sunday.

Now on to the other ones:

I think its really meh tbh. Meta is not kind to it atm and it feels too frail to safely do anything and imo we have better Spikes options. I think this is better with Tauros gone though, still holding up hope it will be good.


Status Immunity is so fucking cool in this tier. Also, it has like 12 different viable moves (Rapid Spin, Body Slam, U-turn, Play Rough, Sclaw, Wish, Yawn, Sucker Punch, etc.) which is nice. It feels like a splashable spinner and imo is very very good.


I think people underestimate a bit on how actually good this thing is. This is a GREAT tera abuser with Tera Ghost or Steel to get out of that god awful typing, it has coverage for Ghost-types with Crunch and has Strong Jaw as an ability to make it not that passive considering it also have a naturally good Attack stat. Having Recovery is also great. Overall, solid mon, probably the second worse drop aside from Cactus but still good!

Heres my drops ranking based on how good i think they are:
1. Paldean Tauros
2. Alolan Raichu
3. Komala
4. Veluza
5. Hisuian Avalugg
6. Cacturne

 

[SergioRules]

gm here's a list of potentially PU relevant mons that have returned in The Teal Mask. separating NFEs that we'll have as soon as PS updates and FEs that will probably drop. also including any relevant moves the Pokemon gets this gen, new stuff in bold

NFEs

Trailblaze (bye)
Knock Off, Defog (bye)

(bye)
Knock Off, Defog, Toxic


Shell Smash
Knock Off
Roost, Flip Turn

Potential FEs

Knock Off



Low Kick

Knock Off, Toxic Spikes

Tidy Up
Knock Off
Defog
Early Bird->Wind Rider, Toxic Spikes, Will-o-Wisp, Knock Off (we probably don't get this)
Poltergeist, Knock Off

Knock Off
Body Press

Knock Off, Spikes

Poltergeist
Heal Bell
Power Gem
Trailblaze, Knock Off, Flip Turn
Take Heart (Refresh+Calm Mind), Flip Turn, Knock Off

Pokemon already in SV that got buffs

Knock Off
Knock Off, Superpower
Knock Off
Knock Off
Toxic
Toxic
Icicle Spear, Knock Off
Poltergeist
Knock Off, Vacuum Wave, Flip Turn
Burning Jealousy, Poltergeist
Knock Off
Knock Off
Poltergeist, Lash Out, Toxic, Burning Jealousy
Flip Turn, Scale Shot
Grassy Glide (now 55 bp)
Knock Off
Knock Off
Knock Off
Knock Off, Lunge
Knock Off
Flip Turn
Knock Off
Knock Off
Burning Jealousy
Roar
Gyro Ball
Knock Off
Scald
Scale Shot

If you notice something I missed, don't reply here as it clogs up the thread, just @ me in the PU discord

(rien edit - sneaked a few more in, ty sergio for posting and also Chloe for bringing a lot of these to my attention)

 

[Morge]

These are all the relevant mons that gained knock off. Obviously thats a big deal for most of them and thank god we have usable hazard removal now because this would be awful last month, and knock off is a pretty big buff to komala for that purpouse.

(Quaxwell isn't relevant) These mons all gained flip turn. Basculin benefits the most I think since lumineon could already pivot and the other 2 don't really want to. Nice boost to basculin.

Not really sure why basculin and veluza get scale shot but its a strong move so they appreciate it, SD gabite just got quite a bit better.

Golduck gained vacum wave. Not like it had issues outrunning things before but it could be a nice counter to opposing priority.

The only mon to gain scald thankfully. Probably still not that good but maybe running it with Raichu-A is more justifiable now.

These mons gained burning jealousy. Not sure if any of them would want to use it but the option is there.

These mons gained lash out. Tauros now has more reliable dark coverage, yay.

These mons all learn poltergeist now. Obviously Spiritomb and banette care the most but I have a feeling that with the new knock off distribution banette doesn't have much of a niche anymore.

The buffs just keep on coming for spiritomb, these 2 gained toxic. Spiritomb seems very strong now.

And these mons all gained grassy glide, most notably thwackey. It did get nerfed all the way down to 55bp but thats still a bit stronger than E-Speed in terrain (82.5bp) so a very nice buff to thwackey. (Edit: Uhh grassy glide is actually 71.5bp since terrain boost is actually 1.3x not 1.5x whoops. Still good regardless)

And of course we also gained some new nfe's:
This thing gained spikes for some reason. Easy S rank, don't get used to it.

I have no idea why this thing learns defog but who am I to complain. Seems pretty good as well, decent bulk, rock resistant, pretty good attack and good movepool. Could also be run as a bulk up sweeper or maybe a guts mon. Great addition to the tier.

Massive bulk, although its still relying on pain split for recovery and pretty passive. Could see use on bulkier structures but I think spiritomb is a better bet for a ghost type at the moment.

Good bulk and attack with a great offensive typing, piloswine seems like a solid offensive stealth rocker, and with thick fat it actually resists rotom frosts stab combo which is very nice, although beyond that the defensive typing isn't great.

This might be a bit of a stretch but this does seem to do what dartrix currently does better. Obviously being a rock weak defogger who needs eviolite is pretty bad, especially in comparison to gurdurr, but its very bulky and has a very nice movepool with stuff like knock off and toxic. Might just be garbage but I have hope.

Pretty cool NFE's and a lot of buffs to existing mons. With both DLC drops and the full effect of home reaching us, next moth is gonna be a whole different tier, so enjoy this one while you can I guess (and also get excited for tidy up furret).

 

[LettuceLeaf07]

I really really wanted to leave some objective expert opinions as someone who is ranked 'haha dont worry about it-th' on ladder, so here we go!

For this entire generation, I have not believed in Falinks, but getting knock is exactly what it needed. Being able to easily pressure ghosts and save its tera for either a status immunity or dachs/clef coverage is amazing. I have no idea what item to run on it, and since I really wanted to avoid burns I've been running lum + tera fire. Worth trying out, knock gives it more utility, defiant is good with Gurdurr being able to defog, and Klawf-speed is enough.

Flip turn finally means you can justify adapt over rock head, but I have not adapted to avoiding the move with 200% recoil, and with hazards still not being a piece of cake to remove, basc can't take the chip. Still a really fun mon, and since it's only coverage moves are 65bp, tera reliant, or 80% accurate with recoil, it's not too broken.

I've been too focused on my Falinks team to play with this mon, but in the one battle I used it in, Piloswine popped off. Trailblaze + EdgeQuake + Ice Shard feels amazing to use and very powerful, and it would be totally awesome if higher tiers could let us keep it.

I've been a little underwhelmed with both of these. Knock is fun, but Cacturne is not a defensive mon, and I really want it to take a hit sometimes. Maybe defensive stat investment is important. I've also only run Thwackey alongside Basculin, and nobody should ever do that because they are both pivot/breakers with priority and therefore compete.

I think I've gotten worse because all of a sudden I get walled (and wall with) Chansey. With new mons getting toxic, I've found heal bell/seismic/twave/soft boiled to work well, even though I should really be running rocks. Heal Bell has the benefit of awakening a resting Spiritomb, or removing a burn from my Falinks (or a twave on something else).

Toxic. Idk what else to add, polter is fun, it's bulky, resttalk is viable on it, but most importantly, toxic. I don't know which of its abilities are better, and the only examples I have where a substitute or PP stall are somewhat important factors were against Spiritomb or Haunter. Definitely a little better and a little less passive.

Maybe my old team was good against Tauros-P, but these have ended up on most of the 4 teams I built today as Tauros-P checks. I've been using Yawn on Dachsbun to actually force things out, but you have to drop one of body press and protect (both of which are useful and annoying to type into builder because 'tect' and 'bp' bring up the wrong moves). With Raichu-a, psychic being weak to ghost, weak to dark, and it not being electric immune still make Kanto Raichu about as viable imo.

The one issue I had with Komala pre-drops was that once I put sucker punch on it, I had to pick between wish or hitting missy with shadow claw. With knock, you are not stuck with shadow claw, and now it's sucker punch or wish that gets dropped. I've never actually been able to use Komala as a purely defensive mon, but it's great role compression with spin/tera ghost if I need it/knock/turn/sucker makes it great as a weird bulky offense mon.

That's about all I can say more than 5 words about. Gurdurr is a later issue, sun is kinda mid especially against an early falinks tera, I haven't struggled against Gligar or Clefairy at all, apparently sawsbuck and sneasel are better, and I've seen more sunflora today than I should have. Meta feels like everything just dropped all at once again, which will set us up perfectly for next month.

 

[ishtar]

Hello, PU Used! Council will be voting on Vulpix, Basculin and.....Tauros-Paldea-Combat on Sunday. Feel free to share your thoughts on these Pokemon as well as any others you might find problematic before Sunday. Thank you! :3

 

[asa]

I really don't like sun's place in the tier right now. Vulpix enables the playstyle far too greatly between automatically setting sun as it switches in, allowing sun teams greater overall flexibility by freeing a slot that a manual setter would normally occupy, and having an incredible utility movepool (which includes HWish, in case you did manage to wear things down!). This isn't even factoring in the buffs that Leafeon and Charizard got, both of which were already difficult to guard against before. Sun is certainly not unbeatable, as it has a handful of bad matchups (Chansey, Hisuian Sliggoo, Swalot, Terastallized Gogoat and Piloswine, Protect or priority spam, etc.), but this is the most broken weather has felt since Hisuian Qwilfish rain. I support axing either Vulpix or Drought, both more or less accomplish the same thing without outright killing sun.

edit: I am open to reexamining Leafeon and Charizard later on if they prove to be problematic even without Vulpix/Drought, but I don't see the harm in taking action on Vulpix/Drought first. Removing Vulpix, Drought, or even Heat Rock takes less away from the tier in general. It also gives us the ability to inspect whether Leafeon and Charizard truly are issues without some of the insane support they currently receive or them getting eight whole turns to wreak havoc. That said, I think banning Heat Rock is too extreme a nerf and that it should come down to Vulpix, since I know it'd be trickier to get Drought banned.


Basculin similarly enables offensive threats too easily thanks to Flip Turn, and our only good Water immunities in Cacturne and Lumineon both get blown up by Basculin's coverage. Furthermore, neither of these Pokemon are particularly easy to fit on teams right now, meaning that Flip Turn is essentially unblockable in most cases. Unlike other Flip Turn users like Prinplup, Basculin is fast, strong, and very threatening too, as well as less predictable than one might think. Also worth considering is that VoltTurn in general is much stronger as a whole, walls are much harder pressed to deal with things due to more Knock Off and more hazards, and stuff like Gogoat has been on a slight downtrend, all of which Basculin benefits from. I think Basculin offers too much reward for how little risk it takes to use on average, and I'd be on board with banning it (or at least keeping a close eye on it).


Don't let new toy syndrome distract you from this thing. Us getting more pivots, more Knock Off to pressure Ghosts/bulky HDB users, and few new checks only makes Pauros feel more broken. Bulk Up is annoying, too customizable, and can still lead to situations where you have to risk the BU Pauros mirror (which we saw throughout the last PULT cycle) while Choice Band is imo even easier to get results with than before. Would love to get rid of this once and for all.

NFE (+ Others) Lightning Round

Compresses a lot of roles really nicely, good check to the Dugs and Skuntank, annoys Pauros a little, blocks Volt in a pinch too. Really unfortunate that it can't manually recover or Defog, but still good.

Tanky, cute with Tera types like Dragon to force trades vs sun, great offensive typing, decently strong priority, actually pretty good at blocking Volt. Also a rocker that doesn't give Gligar, Komala, and Hisuian Avalugg free switch-ins. Pretty easy to wear down, though.

Good, but I can see why some aren't impressed by it. Magic Guard is stupid good rn and Clef can basically do anything for its team with that movepool. Knock Off being so common now hurts this more than other NFEs, though, since it means you can't comfortably check Fightings and Darks despite your typing. Still a nice SpDef wall.

Grassy Glide being weaker does suck, but it's still a great anti-offense and cleaning tool and single-handedly makes Swords Dance sets worth ever using. Has coverage for Grass immunes like Gogoat and Hisuian Sliggoo, too!

Annoying AND ugly, but I guess he's ok since he learns Defog and matches up well vs a lot of our hazard setters....... also can be a decent wincon with Bulk Up.

Even ignoring sun, I think Leafeon has a lot of potential atm. Knock Off is a huge boon to every set it can run and gives it even more to do throughout the game. Offensively checking Waters and Grounds is still very useful, too.

More flexible now even on its established sets while still checking Pauros, though the low Speed means you have some serious competition in more offensive roles.

It's better than you might think! Acid Spray + Flash Cannon/Dragon Pulse can sit on sun while checking a lot of our specially offensive threats and forcing progress against even stuff like Chansey. Inviting in stuff like Pauros, Gurdurr, and Gligar on bad Sleep Talk pulls is not great, though.

Finally being rewarded for all the Sneasel copium I've taken. Was worth trying out even without Knock Off, but regaining the move is certainly a huge boost to its viability. Probably going to become a deadly sweeper since it can't be stopped with Intimidate and also occupies the same Speed tier as Persian-A.

Grouping these together because I think they both have a ton of potential but are equally awkward to build around. SD + Scale Shot Gabite is probably crazy in the right matchup and doesn't have to deal with being slower than like 75%+ of our offensive threats. Similarly, Monferno's still got a great movepool and can fill most roles just fine. Nasty Plot seems cracked considering most of our Fighting checks are physical walls or Ghosts that get fried by Fire Blast. Could see both of these being decent sleeper picks.

Frauds.

Someone please make this work..

 

[DripLegend]

this mon is still broken af lol, not having a single bad set between bulk up, choice band, and scarf. It is never useless in any battle and even when it isn't attacking intimidate is great and it can pivot in on a lot of physical attackers and set up for free. tera makes this mon insane too, with most types being great into the overall common answers in the metagame. i've seen the most amount of tera fire to deny wisp but my personal favorite has been cb tera fairy as it has no good switchins in the whole tier lmao. it can just iron head flinch when in a slight amount of trouble as well. more knock distribution is going to make this even worse to deal with, as most mons that check it usually heavily rely on their item for either bulk (eviolite missy) or longevity (lefties/boots leafeon or whiscash) so more partners being able to straight up remove these items for tauros is a little insane. I think the tier would become a lot better without the bull nuking half the viable mons in the tier.
not commenting on other mons rn since i've only started playing recently but tauros has been something i've noticed to be way too strong for the current metagame atm. pls get rid of this for good

 

[Chloe]

i think this mon is incredibly silly. there is no such thing as reliable defensive counterplay other than lumineon which is not something you wanna run on every team. it either resists water or is flip turned on otherwise. beforehand you were forced to run gogoat, hisuian sliggoo or simply rely on my defensive tera in order to deal with it, and now even that isn't good enough, the amount of powerful breakers that can benefit from flip turn is insane. this pokemon will only get more and more unhealthy as time goes on. i definitely want it gone as a result of this vote.

pauros im so iffy on idrk how to feel about it. i think it's gotten substantially easier to deal with over time in a vacuum, but meta trends definitely make this feel mitigated (missy is nowhere near as good now with everything running knock). i still somewhat dislike its effect on the meta. i dislike dealing with its bu sets. i was outright ban a few weeks ago, now i'm a bit unsure. i don't feel like enough has changed for the result of the previous two council votes to be reversed. if i were to vote today i'd vote dnb.

vulpix i think is absolutely fine for the tier. i do not find sun to be unhealthy, i do not think vulpix benefits it to an insane enough amount. sun feels as potent as rain was in the previous meta, not broken, but definitely something that could run through unprepared teams. i fail to see how vulpix is supposedly the thing that has pushed sun over the edge. if you think sun teams are too strong due to the changes to leafeon and charizard's movepools, it might be worth focusing on those aspects alone. vulpix while a useful tool for sun, is not the reason the playstyle is good. it does not enable sun to push itself over the edge. i don't find sun to be overwhelming. that being said i'm not going to lose sleep over it being gone. it is just more cheese ho, which is probably not what we want to see in high level games, but i am very strongly in the dnb camp personally, and would vote that way.

 

[sensei axew]

hiii just gonna quickly drop my thoughts on the upcoming voting slate

- i'm torn on this and I'm 99% positive that if this were to be banned, this would be unbanned in October once we get the shifts. However, with SCL coming up and week 1 falling just short of those shifts, I think this should be banned for the time being. Flip Turn pushed it over the edge as it gives Basculin easy pivoting to bring in other breakers/sweepers. We do have 2 Water immunities but let's be serious Lumineon is not good and Cacturne is not an easy switch in as it fears well.. any other move that isn't Water type! Basculin can viably run at least 4 sets (Boots Physical, Boots Special, Band, and Scarf) that are all overbearing now thanks to Flip Turn so I would like to see this go for the time being and revisit it once we see what drops we get.

- ban this please lol! I've only returned to building/playing for around a week now but this thing is ridiculous to prep for/deal with. BU sets can run like 19250932 different moves outside of BU and CC and it's quite impossible to tell what moves they're going to be until they're revealed. Furthermore, Pauros can also run 2039593490 viable tera types and prepping for each one is just impossible in tandem with the coverage it decides to pick. Not only this, but its CB/AOA sets are also impossible to switch into especially now that it has access to Lash Out. It's attack stat, speed, coverage, and sweeping capabilities are far above what the tier can handle at the current moment. I'd also argue that this thing will still probably be broken post October meta but we can discuss that when the time comes.

- i believe that the addition of Vulpix providing instant sun is enough to warrant a ban. Drought has been a problematic part in PU's history and this generation is no different. Automatic set enables Leafeon, Charizard, Scovillain etc. far too easily and reigns hell on teams that don't have the specific tools to beat each specific abuser. I don't think there's a point in dancing around in order to keep this playstyle broken; Sun was never considered to be broken without Vulpix in the tier and due to this, it's easier to axe the source of the problem now.

TLDR: I think everything on this slate is broken enough to be banned

 

[Aurist]

Been fed up of this mon for nearly 3 weeks now I truly can't believe it survived 2 ban slates. It's simply too versatile, too fast and too powerful for PU, even with the NFE drops that answer it slightly better than it was being answered before. Preparing for BU Trailblaze and CB sets is 2 different games and Pauros simply can't be revenged after clicking 1 Trailblaze. PU has been so unfun because running this thing and 2 checks minimum for it is mandatory. I'd like to see it gone so we can stop having a crappy time before the shifts come in.


I have mixed feelings on Sun in PU, it doesn't seem to be optimised so people aren't finding the best results for it. With that said the MU fish aspect of Sun is very real and most teams are having to overprepare for it - with sometimes even that not being enough. Sun has a significant variety of mons that it can run and with 8 turns and auto setting preparing for Sawsbuck, Scovillain, Charizard and Leafeon with the same team often feels unrealistic. Playing against Sun I think would feel a lot more fair if you could stall out Sun turns, so IMO it would be a lot healthier if we banned Heat Rock instead of Vulpix/Drought.


Absolutely loving running this mon, it's simply too easy to pivot around on its answers into one of their many answers as the tier is jam packed full of breakers that love passive mons which are the only mons that have the ability to withstand Adaptability Basculin. Cacturne is a very valid counter and Lumineon exists (and kinda sucks) but if you're not running them you're getting turned on and rekt. Basculin isn't exactly broken on its own but in the context of PU it's simply too much imo. As sensei axew said it seems a likely unban after October shifts - but that's why we ban now, to not be in a weird broken limbo and to accurately record the state of the tier in September.

So yeah, a definite 100% support on Pauros and Basculin bans - and a sort-of support on Vulpix as I think Heat Rock would be a better ban.

 

[gum]

Playing against Sun I think would feel a lot more fair if you could stall out Sun turns, so IMO it would be a lot healthier if we banned Heat Rock instead of Vulpix/Drought.

the issue with banning heat rock over vulpix is that it essentially kills the playstyle - weather without rocks ends up being unviable. banning vulpix allows us to preserve a playstyle that was already usable before with the presence of heat rock while simultaneously nerfing it. i think that should be our priority while tiering. as for vulpix > drought, it really doesn't make a difference and tiering policy says we should ban pokemon before abilities, as it's impossible to prove the ability itself is the issue over vulpix as a pokemon

as for sun itself, i think i'd rather want it gone. i was way more pro-ban right after we got the metagame but it's not something that's particularly fun to face, and we have too many threats to account for in the builder as of now. with scl coming up, pult playoffs happening, and october shifts right around the corner, i think being as ban happy as possible has no downsides and should be the way we view tiering, currently. for that reason i plan to vote ban on everything, as that also gives us more time to evaluate things that might become stupid / problematic between this week and scl week 1 as we watch the meta develop during ladder tour

 

[RextheNoname]

Yeah this one has got to go, nothing super crazy here. Its versatility as both a physical tank, Bulk-Up sweeper & CB breaker is far too much for the tier to handle. Its solid physical bulk makes priority revenging it near impossible. Even with the new DLC Movepools + returned knock off distribution, it's still very hard to pressure pauros. I'd also like to note that it really doesn't do much for the meta. There's no mons that appear to be broken without this guy in the tier. I guess it does help relieve pressure on the bulkier mons of the tier slightly, but it doesn't make up for the major increase in pressure it applies itself. This mon just ends up having all the hallmarks of a noxious mon. BAN


Basculin is definitely problematic for the tier but in a far more enjoyable way. It's obvious that all of basculin's counters are inconsistent or just outright terrible, but I think there's just something so enjoyable with clicking adaptability flip turns & liquidations that makes you want to ignore how broken this mon is. Regardless, Flip turn enables this thing to be too strong of a pivot for the tier, and it's offensive pressure definitely feels overbearing. BAN


Vulpix is definitely far closer to the line than the aforementioned mons. Sun feels like a very strong archetype, but not in a overbearingly broken way. Fighting against sun still feels manageable, as many of the abusers do still maintain consistent counterplay. In addition, a lot of the tier's priority can consistently revenge a lot of sun's abusers. I think Vulpix does push this playstyle to be on the problematic end, making sun overbearing with access to an autosetter. I still don't think banning vulpix will outright nullify Sun's place in the meta, and I think this makes sense given the current state of the meta. BAN


I know this isn't on the slate, but I just felt like I needed to bring this up. Banning heat rock because a sun autosetter is enabling sun to be problematic is akin to blowing your foot off with a 12 gauge shotgun to cure a case of chronic liver failure. Manual sun is highly abuseable, and even with Vulpix in the tier Sun still feels manageable. All this does is kill a playstyle which is healthy for the meta bar one mon.

 

[zoowi]

since it wasn't actually said this thread yet, tauros, basculin and vulpix were banned yesterday
anyway

mons 2 share part 3


Veluza @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Psycho Cut
- Aqua Cutter
- Recover
- Aqua Jet / Fillet Away / Flip Turn

Fishe is what I tried using (for like a day, but I really liked it) as combined check to Basculin + Tauros with its 90/73 defense which doesn't sound like enough but it was. Rocky Helm let you punish all those flip turns especially with hazards and it could shrug off any of Tauros's moves bar Tera Blasts on weakness. Is it still worth using? Beats me. But I had enough fun with it to show it here. My preference outta the last 3 moves is Aqua Jet.


Piloswine @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash
- Stealth Rock
Pilo is back and he benefits immensely from and being gone. Anyone playing PU before shouldn't be surprised with this set, it's been his staple set wherever Pilo has shown up in PU. A neat little aside for it unique to gen 9 is the hail snow mechanics give it that juicy 1.5x def boost. Which in tandem with Eviolite ramps it up to ~450 defenceand that's before any defence evs! And hey we still have auto hail mons so neat. Tera type seems flexible (grass, water, dragon?), going ground don't hurt to remove that pesky Ice weakness and boost EQ.


Swalot @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press / Ice Beam
- Rest / Pain Split
- Encore / Knock Off / Toxic
- Encore / Knock Off / Toxic
Defend yourself from the invading Knock Off menace! One of the better (only) options for absorbing Knock Off spam and a good Gurdurr check to boot. I like Rocky Helm for the chip on Knock users, but the leftovers recovery is noticeable. Ice Beam is for a 2hko on , as all its other options would otherwise let it get up all the hazards it would ever want, and random freezes are nice. And hey it gets Knock too!


Hakamo-o @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Drain Punch / Close Combat
- Dragon Claw / Scale Shot / Outrage
- Iron Head

Funny fighting dragon slept on. May I remind you that this thing is -immune- to stabs? Making it perhaps the best switchin. Along with taking near 0 from Dazzling Gleam after a Tera (and being immune to Focus Blast while being Tera Steel'd). Some kind of Bulk Up set seems workable too. Also good coverage moves unlike the other NFE dragons. Remember when was still relevant in this tier? Good times...

 

[Melt Gibson]

hi hi omg i'm back and have some meta takes


Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ghost / Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Atk / 40 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Taunt / Fake Out

Been liking this little dude a lot, actually. Very capable of getting Komala and H-Avalugg to fuck off and does nicely with Klawf thanks to forming a Regenerator core and helping to keep Rocks up. You can even go all in and add in a TSpikes Mareanie! 40 speed allows you to outpace 0 speed Dachsbun, 252 HP makes your HP number a multiple of 3 for optimal Regenerator numbers, and the rest is in Attack for damage. This could probably be optimized more, you could absolutely try and speed creep for some other things. For example, a spread of 252 HP / 116 Atk / 140 Spe with a Jolly nature allows you to outspeed Stealth Rock Klawf. It is very much limited in terms of the things it can be paired with, and is generally not AS good as Gurdurr, but I think that it's definitely worth a shot and that people are sleeping on it right now.


Thwackey @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Grassy Glide
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch

He was already pretty good and now he's just better! Grassy Glide nerf is unfortunate but you can still put out some very solid and consistent damage with Band. Strong priority that hits Whiscash, Klawf, and Lycanroc is very very swag. This feels like a real pick for reasons other than Grassy Terrain right now and I love to see it.


Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up

Back with a vengeance, holy shit this is so good. Defog sets are legit and very solid removal, but I feel like Bulk Up is much less awkward to try and fit onto teams. A remover that can dunk on common hazard setters is very cool though, and for sure something we've been lacking. Not caring about hazards too much is very cool since you resist rocks and getting poisoned procs Guts which can be beneficial for you in the short term. Layered Spikes can suck big time, but you have decent recovery potential with Drain Punch and keeping hazards off is definitely easier than it used to be. Very very good mon, definitely think this has a bright future.



All fall into the category of "already good and got Knock Off from the DLC so now they're better", don't have much to say except a good portion of these look cool and I'm excited to build with them.