Metagame NP: Stage 4 - Bye Bye (August Tier Shifts)

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Rabia

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Another month, another set of tier shifts! This is our last batch before we get NUKED by a massive shift next month, so let's have fun with this metagame while we've still got it :)

NEW DROPS:
:avalugg:
:avalugg-hisui:
:cryogonal:
:floatzel:
:samurott:
:zoroark:

What are your thoughts so far on the newest drops? Personally, I'm most excited to see what Cryogonal and Samurott do for our tier.
 
3 new rapid spinners? :O

we were kinda spoilt this drop ngl, not a huge fan of zoroark returning as I felt personally it forced a weird 50/50 vibe of "is it, isnt it?" the rest though are nice additions.

both avaluggs and cryo will probably fit in nicely as boots spinners (cryo especially) and have solid defences on one side each.

Floatzel is....interesting? i suppose a manual rain team?

Samurott is gonna be fun as a swords dance sweeper, though I dont see it being overall meta defining.

Overall, this is a shake up but not necessarily a bad one imo. I look forward to this new meta quite eagerly
 

Corthius

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:Samurott::bw/Samurott::ss/Samurott::bw/Samurott::Samurott:
Samurott @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 64 Atk / 192 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Sacred Sword
- Sacred Sword
- Ice Beam
Very generic set; I made it 2HKO the Blissey spread Rabia gave me, but really you can go all out with it.

I am very excited about Samurott. The first thing I notice is how incredible its mixed wallbreaking potential is. With 100 Atk and 108 SpA respectively, it has the tools to break the common structure of generic spdef walls + generic physdef wall that has been and will be dominant with what we have at our disposal. Sableye/Sandaconda/(H-)Qwilfish/Avalugg + Blissey/Cryogonal/Dudunsparce cores all fold to Hydro Pump + Sacred Sword, while the remaining two slots can open up breaking even more. Be it the generic Ice coverage for Grass types, Knock Off to just make progress even faster and Aqua Jett for priority. Other options also include SD, Taunt and Encore (I particular find Encore to be insanely good this whole generation). Idek what tera type to use, potentially one to boost either Knock Off or Sacred Sword, but it will only amplify its potential.
The potential Samurott offensively has is nearly endless, and the only thing that I found that actually limits it, is its speed stat. While base 70 is enough for most walls, Samurott will struggle versus offensive threats. It does have a good typing and decent defensive stats to back it up, but being easily worn down by hazards + Life Orb damage and potentially stray pivot moves from faster pokemon do limit its time on the field.
In the end though, I think that is what will allow Samurott to not be overbearing for us to deal with, especially when we count in opposing tera like a tera Fairy Blissey (I'm sure you can even get away with double Water STAB). Counters might even exists, I just haven't looked hard enough, and with tera in the picture, a pokemon as slow as Smaurott can probably be dealt with. Still super excited to see what it can bring to the tier.

:Floatzel::bw/Floatzel::ss/Floatzel::bw/Floatzel::Floatzel:
Floatzel my beloved. Fsr I fell in love with this thing ever since the introduction of Wave Crash; probably because Rain is my favorite weather to abuse. Anyway, while manual rain doesn't seem impossible to pull off, I don't think it is gonna end up being any top level strategy that you have to dedicate your building too much to; in fact, I believe that you will probably prepare for rain simply by having to prep for Samurott and Floatzel outside of rain. Speaking of Samurott, Floatzel and Samurott feel similar like Toxicroak and Hisuian Sneasel to me. One is insanely fast, but a bit weaker, and the other one is stronger, but slower. Sure, that is a vastly simplified way of viewing it, but it is true to some extend. Under rain, I have been using mixed Floatzel in order to both snipe Avalugg and spdef walls. Similary, you can run a specially offensive Floatzel with moves like Low Kick or Wave Crash for the same reason, but to snipe special walls. In general though, outside of rain I think Floatzel will be easier to deal with; we'll see how much its speed tier will matter in the end.

Regarding the drops, I feel like Toxicroak benefits a lot from the tier shifts. Its Water immunity becomes really helpful in fending off the new Water threats, while its Fighting typing allows it to threaten the new drops quite nicely (again with the possibility of a mixed set).

Anyway, I don't feel strong about the other drops at this point, thank you for reading and have fun building in this new metagame. :quagchamppogsire:
 

plznostep

Flittle Fanatic
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:bw/cryogonal: :sv/cryogonal: :bw/cryogonal:

Cryogonal @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel / Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Haze
- Recover
- Rapid Spin

Cryogonal is so nice to have around right now. It is actually so refreshing to have an Ice resist finally, Glaceon's have to run Tera Fighting now, and that with a ground immunity too is very nice, meaning on a successful pivot you can threaten out Sandaconda. Not only that, its incredibly fast and has good natural bulk, meaning you can invest into this Speed stat so you can outspeed Pokemon such as Bruxish and hit them with a Freeze Dry. Haze is also just a really nice move, we love shutting down setup sweepers like CM Dudunsparce in a pinch and depending on your tera, a variety of setup Pokemon such as Oricorio and Ursaring. And the final trait worth nothing; Cryogonal get's Rapid Spin. This means hazard stack has a way of getting rid of hazards without completely getting rid of their own Stealth Rock/Spikes on the field, which can be great for Pokemon that tend to get chipped down a lot of like Tauros. Overall, just an amazing addition to the tier and i'm very glad we have it now.

:bw/floatzel: :sv/floatzel: :bw/floatzel:

Floatzel @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Veil
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Aqua Jet
- Ice Spinner
- Crunch

I think that people are also sleeping just a little bit on Floatzel. It doesn't need Rain really to function, all it needs is a band and some pivotting support to get in, and you have a really sufficient wallbreaker that acts as a sidegrade to Pokemon such as Bruxish, basically foregoing the Psychic-type for the better speed, which can make it more difficult to revenge kill, outspeeding Pokemon such as Scyther, Zoroark, and Cryogonal. It also has coverage for the various Grass-types of the tier such as Cacturne and Appletun, meaning that they have to be careful on the switch, and Water Veil is a cool ability that allows Floatzel to ignore Sableye's Prankster Will O Wisp, so that's also pretty neat. The main con of this Floatzel is how easily it gets worn down though of course, just like Bruxish. But, I think it definitely has a place here as a sidegrade to Bruxish on teams that might be a little more scared of Pokemon in the 92-115 range that Bruxish get's revenge killed by, especially with Zoroark around.

 
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Punchshroom

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Samurott @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 64 Atk / 192 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Sacred Sword
- Sacred Sword
- Ice Beam
Sacred Sword so good you had to list it twice XD


Samurott @ Lum Berry / Mystic Water
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet
- Megahorn / Drill Run

Special/mixed wallbreaking Samurott definitely has more room for optimization, but Swords Dance Samurott has deceptive versatility in how it can be run as well. Adamant Samurott doesn't even need much Speed (outrun neutral Abomasnow at the very least), but if you want to outrun +Spe Abomasnow, Jolly with at least 216 Speed is advised. Its base kit is already very potent, boasting both good holepunching power while being one of the deadliest end-game cleaners in NU, especially with the threat of +2 Tera boosted Aqua Jets. However, if you opt not to run Water Tera, Samurott has a wide range of defensive Teras that are applicable for it as well, which can in turn influence its choice of item and/or coverage; for example, Electric Tera can resist Electric moves while also granting paralysis immunity, which can lessen the need for Lum Berry and allow Samurott to run Mystic Water to slightly make up for the loss of STAB Tera, such as OHKOing Hisuian-Sneasel with +2 Mystic Water Aqua Jet after SR 87.5% of the time. Other Teras like Ground Tera for full Electric immunity, Poison Tera for Toxic immunity, set up on Muk, & turn the tables on Qwilfish/Toxicroak, Fairy Tera for general resistances to Dark/Fighting, etc. SD Samurott can use defensive Teras in a similar fashion to OU Kingambit to leverage otherwise unfavorable matchups to either set up easier or beat them down with +2 Liquidation into Aqua Jet combos.

Megahorn is generally the safe coverage move since it covers Grasses and can smack Umbreon, but +2 Tera Water Mystic Water Liquidations also destroy Umbreon without getting tripped up by Tera Fairy, so if your team can handle Grasses, Samurott's coverage move can be customized depending on your team. You could fit in Drill Run to bait in Qwilfish/Toxicroak (preferably with the aforementioned Poison Tera) so that your Hisuian Sneasel can run wild more freely. You could consider other coverage moves like Knock Off or Sacred Sword depending on what your team needs or, if you're really wild, slap on the accompanying Tera type with those coverage moves to fuel them further while changing your weakness profile to make yourself harder to handle in general. For instance, you don't need Megahorn for Appletun if a +2 Tera Dark Knock Off sideswipes it for 82% minimum. SD Samurott is so fundamentally solid that there's probably a right Tera SD Rott variant for your team no matter what it is. That said, Tera Water will likely be the most consistent anyway; those Swords Dance-boosted Tera Aqua Jets are meta defining in and of itself.


Floatzel @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Veil
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Ice Spinner
- Tera Blast
- Low Kick / Aqua Jet

Honestly, I'm not particularly sold on Floatzel's overall impact in this meta. For the most part, SD Samurott's Tera Aqua Jet and Choice Scarf Bruxish can threaten fast mons like Jolteon, Scarf Rotom, and Hisuian Sneasel better than Floatzel can, while both Waters' access to Swords Dance gives them better matchups against bulkier mons as well. This leaves Floatzel with a pretty small target range between the 92 to 115 Speed tiers; while the ability to immediately OHKO things like Scyther, Tauros (after SR chip), max HP Cryogonal, and Zoroark are not insignificant, this utility is kinda limited compared to the sheer work that its fellow Water brethren can dish out. That said, I think that Floatzel's best utility might come from Water spam cores, particularly alongside Tera Water Samurott; Samurott can punish the bulkier and ultra-speedy Pokemon that Floatzel struggles to perform against, while Floatzel aims to KO all of the mid-/high-range speed Pokemon that don't drop to Tera Water Samurott's Aqua Jet. Arguably the best aspect of this combo is that Floatzel is not beholden to run Tera Water, or even to Tera in the first place; if I ever do wish to Tera my Floatzel at all, I would commit to Tera Ground Blast to eviscerate Qwilfish and Toxicroak to allow my Samurott to run unimpeded, while still serving the general purpose of blocking faster Electric attacks from Jolteon and Scarf Rotom. Low Kick is primarily for softening up Abomasnows, especially if I suspect them to be Timid. Man I wish Floatzel still had Switcheroo, but I digress.
 
:cryogonal:
I'm not sure Cryogonal is going to be all that good. It's stuck between wanting to be fast, bulky and strong at the same time; it feels very reliant on tera to really check anything too. There are so many physical breakers in the tier compared to our special ones, like yeah you might beat cm jolteon and dudun but you get fucked on by coil dun+eel, you lose to psyshock naturally, lose to +0 ursa, both fighters, even mixed samu beats you 1v1 because fd only does ~70% to Naive. Yeah you perma cuck sandy I guess, but you lose 1v1 without tera to any stone edge sets so, lol to that one.

:avalugg: :avalugg-hisui:
On the other hand Avalugg seems like its going to be really good. Tera Ghost beats every physical sweeper+ID lets you counter sweep if you use a different remover. Yeah it gets cucked by special moves but this tier is like 95% physical breakers. Having reliable recovery is a big plus too for removal and to weasel into more setup chances. I've been screwing around with HAvalugg too as a more offensive spinner and it's kinda cool. Strong Jaw+high defense lets you be an offensive presence with crunch+press and tera dark means you beat sableye and rotom fairly consistently. The extra weakness is annoying, so it's no worldbeater, but it can manage good progress and normally go 1for1.

:samurott:
Samu looks and feels really good as an SD Sweeper or mixed breaker. It gets all the coverage it needs (maybe too much!) to break whatever it please. Sacred Sword for cryo/bliss/umbreon, megahorn for cact/lurantis/apple, air slash for croak. Tera Dark knock off spam is nothing to scoff at either. Boasting respectable offensive stats by NU standards it can use it's wide coverage, high base stats, and a boosting item to very effectively break and/or clean through most teams, given our lack of solid water resists.

:floatzel:
Floatzel looks similarly scary, though with more reliance on tera to break Croak/Qwil. It sits at a very comfy 115 base speed, blazing past everything not named Sneasel-Hisui or Jolteon; it's base 105 attack paired with this speed stat let it run band more comfortably than Bruxish, it's main competition as a water breaker.

:zoroark:
Zoroark is broken, ban it. Supremely good typing, stats, and coverage with an abomination of an ability lets it make infinite progress.
 
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Finchinator

-OUTL
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OU Leader
After over seven years of being involved with the NU tiering council, it’s time for me to step away. Thank you to Meri and Rabia for extending this opportunity over the last couple of months and good luck to you both.

This community deserves active and communicative people making decisions, and I fear I cannot fulfill this anymore. Stepping down from TL a few months back foreshadowed this, but now it’s time I take a full step back.

I am excited for NU that someone more fit will take my place and help strengthen our already superb tiering council. I will still stick around as moderator to help with NUWC, but the eventual hope is that I cut back all of my Smogon positions aside from OUTL. Thanks for 7+ awesome years!
 

Danny

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ZU Circuit Champion
:sv/avalugg: :sv/avalugg-hisui: :sv/cryogonal: :sv/floatzel: :sv/samurott: :sv/zoroark:

Your favorite poster is back again and with new dope mons to help boost my like to post ratio!!!! I am going to discuss each of the drops that have come, drop some sets I think are cool or could be cool, and then discuss my thoughts on a certain drop that I feel is too much for the tier. So lets hop in!

:sv/avalugg: and :sv/avalugg-hisui:


These two are great additions to the tier. Their ability to remove hazards on Sandaconda is greatly appreciated. I think they both will be viable, Base Lugg more so than Hisui. Hisui is in my opinion more useful as bulky tank, with its strong stab moves coming off of an even stronger attack stat it can eat hits and hit back harder. I know many people are looking forward to Trick Room but once again getting one slow strong fuck isn't going to make it viable sry guys. Regardless I think IDBP Avalugg and rapid spin will be useful. Ice Spinner or Avalance does a lot to most of the ghosts bar froslass and is able to pressure them by forcing damage onto Drifblim or rotom for other pokemon to take advantage of. I don't think there is too much set diversity with regards to these two, spin/recover/STAB/Body Press seems like the most common set and on ID it would be ID/recover/Body Press/Ice move just drop spin. Tera wise I can see fairy, fighting or ghost becoming the most common. With regards to Hisui form I would run either spin/recover/ice stab/rock stab or recover+3a with ice/rock/ground for edgequake+stab. Most likely the same teras imo potentially some more gimmicky stuff like heavy slam+steel

:sv/cryogonal:

This is an even better addition to the tier than the other two ice spinners. Cryogonal is an amazing pokemon and I am stoked to have it drop down to NU. A spinner that can actually force out Sandaconda is a blessing(just gotta be wary of stone edge pre tera). I think it gives a lot of role compression to the tier and can allow teams to run other items than the mono boots+scarf rotom teams we saw a lot of last meta. Definitely worth using as with tera steel you can wall coil condas easily. Haze is a really nice move for special set up pokemon bar mesprit and it allows cryo to serve as a nice stop to many of our threats. I do think it will compete with Articuno for that slot, but it differentiates itself by having a ground immunity while tera along with the obvious rapid spin that it has. Im looking forward to seeing how it will free up the builder for people, or if it will consistently have to compete with articuno or lugg for their respective roles. Love the mon tho a lot.

:sv/floatzel: :sv/samurott:

Ngl. Paired these two together because floatzel is ass. Yes we lost vapo, but I seriously don't think this guy will have much of an impact. Manual rain with sableye will be cute yeah but besides that the special sets and bu taunt(lol) seem super ass. On the exact opposite side of the coin, samurott has a ton of viability. We finally get another knock off user YAY but its so much more than that tbh. SD sets are deadly since you can remove items from checks and potentially sweep late game with aqua jet. Mixed sets give us a special attacker that is able to force knocks on unsuspecting special checks, while also baiting in those who expect the physical set. I really like this mon, think it will fit nicely in the metagame. It kinda has a bit of 4mms, wanting to run all of knock/liquid/aqua jet/megahorn on the physical side and wanting is sometimes lacking on the special side with regards to breaking strength. I think it fits perfectly and i cannot wait to see teams with this on their spikestacks or offenses to force progress.

:sv/zoroark:

Originally I was going to make a post separately about my feelings about this guy. As most of you well know we as council were discussing banning this pokemon earlier in the year during NUPL. In that meta it was completely dominating and warped the tier around itself. Luckily for us it rose by itself to RU and now months later it is back for vengeance. In all honesty I really don't see what has changed about it. It is still the same fast and strong fuck that was here a bit ago. If anything zoro gained new pokemon with which to disguise itself in sneasel hisui and samurott. In particular I feel like its specs sets and its mixed spA oriented sets are what push it past the line of balanced into broken. Its ability to not only trick our main special walls but potentially remove their items with a STAB knock off means that there are no long term checks to it. Its special coverage moves still beat the standard specially defensive checks to it and if it can't get past a certain pokemon with its sheer strength then Knock Off, Trick, or disguise mind games will do just fine. Some common mons that people will most likely try are Blissey, Cryo, Articuno, Bombirdier, eel, and qwilly H. What all these mons have in common is that they absolutely CANNOT be knocked off in order to do their job. Blissey is the mon that potentially take it the best, but still highly dislikes the scenarios where it gets knocked>tries to come back into zoro again and then gets u turned on>enter phys attacker. Not to mention that without hazards up on the zoro user;s side then you will have no clue what you are looking at. Oh there are also SD tera dark knock offs to contend with which ravaged the tier, and its not like a sane avalugg player will switch into a zoro mindlessly so it is guaranteed to make progress. All this to say that in my opinion we should banish this guy asap no rocky.

The drops are cool. I like all of em bar floatzel and obv zoro. Wish we got a steel or two but for august this is a good pull.
 
Last shifts before our metagame gets completely nuked woo

Drops
:sv/Avalugg: :sv/Avalugg-Hisui:
Having access to spinners that aren't Komala is definitely appreciated. Kalos Lugg has a lot more going for it defensively just by virtue of not being weak to Water, but I don't think Hisui is that awful tbh. Hisuian Table acc has a really nice offensive profile w good bulk to mitigate the speed tier issue, ofc the big problem is that you need to Tera it in front of like 9/10 mons for it to actually use that bulk. Once you have though it's p threatening and has a lot of solid defensive merit + it's a lot harder to spinblock vs. SR is also an interesting slot cause it actually is p hard to off vs and frees up Conda. Will say though the thing about using Tera on lugg in this tier is that I'd generally rather use my Tera on a broken wincon/breaker e.g. Dudun, Corio, Jolt, etc. (Get them out btw)

:SV/Cryogonal:
Another spinner and this one looks solid for sure. It's a pretty nice Ice answer for mons like Glace, Non-SD Aboma, etc. and Tera Steel + Levitate is a tried and true combo that lets you sit on stuff like Coil Conda while also offering a generally good defensive profile. The fact you don't comfortably off vs Conda w/o burning Tera is admittedly p annoying though. Articuno also just feels a lot better on most teams that aren't dying for the compression by virtue of being able to grab momentum & bring in breakers super easily w U-Turn and having not shit physical bulk. Really can't complain about more spinners + a haze user though.

:SV/Floatzel:
I have seen people gas him up but I'm not really a believer. Even w the premiere Water Immunity gone, I expect anti-water measures to pick up a fair bit w Samu in the tier, just don't see it doing much. The speed tier is at least cool for outpacing zoro scythe , but you still speed tie w Hisuian Sneasel and outsped by Jolt which is decidedly cringe if speed is your selling point. Manual Rain is fun but don't see it being relevant enough to call Floatzel good.

:Sv/Samurott:
Probably the best (non-broken) drop and a really cool potentially meta defining addition to the tier. First and foremost its by far the best user of Knock Off (Aside from Broken Zoroark) in the tier as you can't really throw Non-Tera'd Sandaconda at it and call it a day. It's quite easy to pair it w spikes and knock your defensive cplay and prio past weakened offensive late game. Tera Water Jet outside of cleaning is also really nice at picking off/forcing out frail fast threats like weakened Jolt. Ofc Samu isn't limited to SD (Although I do think that will likely become the most popular set) and mixed definitely seems like a viable option. Haven't used it though so won't vouch for its viability.

:SV/Zoroark:
The other drops were cool why did RU have to do this to us. IMO Zoroark stands out as an immediate quickban. Sure we have some mons that can pretend to be checks e.g. H-Qwil, Bliss, Cuno. Ofc the problem is that H-Qwil is omega vulnerable to Hazards and can only hold off Zoro for so long and Bliss and Cuno are OHKO'd by Trick, this is only assuming specs anyways. Knock Off ruins all 3 and ofc SD is still a set. None of this factors in Illusion either which is even worse to play around w Hisuian Sneasel in the tier. Ideally goes ASAP.

Adaptations to Drops
:SV/Toxicroak:
Toxicroak was by no means bad pre drops, but the introduction of Samurott compensates for the loss of Vapo and offers some extra incentive to use it over Hisuian Sneasel. Croak can get sniped by Drill Run but Samu is not fitting that way more often than not.

:SV/Qwilfish-Hisui:
Ability: Poison Point
Not anything crazy but means that Zoroark doesn't get to spam U-Turn on you forever w spikes up. It's actually pretty nice for U-Turn mons in general and means you don't proc Braviary's Defiant.

:SV/Froslass:
Froslass @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Hex / Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp / Taunt
- Spikes
With the advent of viable spinners in NU, Froslass has the fun niche of being a spiker that happens to resist their STABs. Makes Kalos Avalugg's life pretty miserable and while you don't really beat Cryogonal, you aren't immediately threatened by it either so you've got room to pivot around spin to keep them up. Really nice Samurott partner as well + Spikes are great at making stuff like Zoro even more broken. Fast WIll-O-Wisp that Conda can't be harded in on mindlessly is a pretty awesome tool.

Anyways that is all, can't wait to see Weavile in NU in a month!
 
Hello everyone! This post is going up later than it should but I'm gonna give some of my thoughts on a few of the Pokemon being discussed amongst the council. This will also shed some light towards the community on what we have planned in the future. Keep in mind these are my own thoughts and not any promise regarding tiering action.

:dudunsparce:
You will see a common trend for some of these Pokemon, in that their setup sets are super broken and the Pokemon themselves are inherently overbearing, but the utility provided for the tier makes it hard to quickban them. We could always do a community suspect test, but with the constant wave of tournaments, tier shifts, and the sheer number of Pokemon this applies to, there's really no time to suspect all of these. Dudunsparce is a mixed bag of a setup sweeper, with incredibly potent Coil and Calm Mind sets all with various coverage and ability options. Coil with Serene Grace Body Slam effortlessly spread paralysis which makes it impossible to check long-term. Dragon Tail is a common last move, as it allows Dudunsparce to beat opposing bulky setup Pokemon like Coil Sandaconda and Eelektross. Calm Mind sets have the high BP Boomburst at their disposal, with Shadow Ball for Ghost-types and Thunder(bolt) for utility and coverage. The ridiculous bulk and reliable recovery of Dudunsparce bolstered further by Tera makes it a super easy-to-use setup sweeper with most counterplay being dependent on the set and good RNG.

:jolteon:
Jolteon is the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the tier, and with Tera it has borderline perfect coverage. This combined with Volt Switch to pivot on and weaken midground checks makes Jolteon practically impossible to check long-term. The issue with Jolteon being banned is it provides offensive counterplay to other offensive Pokemon like Hisuian Sneasel (who I also think is very broken but the rest of council doesn't seem to think so). Jolteon is a pretty cut-and-dry issue, it's too fast and strong but is a perfect offensive pivot for the tier.

:mesprit:
Mesprit's sheer set diversity, power, and bulk makes it a complete menace in the tier. bulky setup with Tera Draining Kiss is super difficult to take out, but offensive sets with Nasty Plot or Choice Scarf with Mystical Power can snowball super hard due to the lack of Steel-types. Mesprit also packs a ton of utility with Stealth Rock, Trick, and Healing Wish, but the offensive setup sets are debatably too overbearing for the tier and the counterplay is extremely limited to scouting the sets which only gives them more opportunities for free setup. This creates the feeling of walking on eggshells with the Pokemon only to get swept completely if you guess wrong.

:oricorio:
Same song and dance (you may now laugh) as Dudunsparce and Mesprit. If you try to scout the set, you let it setup. Oricorio has so many varying spreads, tera types, and moveset options and sometimes it can just have the perfect combination to 6-0 you. another cut-and-dry issue, Tera + setup is pretty silly.

:sneasel-hisui:
Zoroark is as broken as it was the day it left, with absurd set diversity and Illusion it can be an absolute nightmare to play against, especially when disguised as Hisuian Sneasel, who we didn't have last time Zoroark was here. Despite the various sets Zoroark can run; Choice Scarf, Swords Dance, Physical with Encore, Mixed with Knock Off, there is one set that COMPLETELY breaks Zoroark and that is Choice Specs. The sheer power of Specs- and potentially Tera-boosted Dark Pulse is far too much for the tier, especially when Zoroark can lure in specially frail Pokemon like Sandaconda and Klawf to open up its teammates. In my opinion, Zoroark is far too much for the tier in my opinion.

Council is holding a slate with these Pokemon as we speak, the results will have potential quickbans and a tiering survey regarding our next suspect test.
 
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:oricorio:
Same song and dance (you may now laugh) as Dudunsparce and Mesprit. If you try to scout the set, you let it setup. Oricorio has so many varying spreads, tera types, and moveset options and sometimes it can just have the perfect combination to 6-0 you. another cut-and-dry issue, Tera + setup is pretty silly.
Just some personal considerations.
I think nobody's surprised by this list.
What worries me about the bird is that for the next tier shifts (including the "freed NUBL") we will get all the other QDers like Venomoth :venomoth:, Frosmoth :Frosmoth: and Oricorio-Sensu :oricorio-sensu: (RU freed pom-pom :oricorio-pom-pom:) and, most likely, an additional number of offensive threats. If we already have a problem with Baile, I think the next meta will be an absolute mess, considering that RU never gives NU the right checks for the broken stuff. Moreover the current NU threats will still be there...
 

Danny

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ZU Circuit Champion
Just some personal considerations.
I think nobody's surprised by this list.
What worries me about the bird is that for the next tier shifts (including the "freed NUBL") we will get all the other QDers like Venomoth :venomoth:, Frosmoth :Frosmoth: and Oricorio-Sensu :oricorio-sensu: (RU freed pom-pom :oricorio-pom-pom:) and, most likely, an additional number of offensive threats. If we already have a problem with Baile, I think the next meta will be an absolute mess, considering that RU never gives NU the right checks for the broken stuff. Moreover the current NU threats will still be there...
I would like to note that no one is guaranteeing a completely free NUBL. Sure Council will most definitely vote on the NUBLs but they arent all guaranteed to be free and if the meta is best without some of of these beautiful dancers then so be it.
 
Hello everyone! This post is going up later than it should but I'm gonna give some of my thoughts on a few of the Pokemon being discussed amongst the council. This will also shed some light towards the community on what we have planned in the future. Keep in mind these are my own thoughts and not any promise regarding tiering action.

:dudunsparce:
You will see a common trend for some of these Pokemon, in that their setup sets are super broken and the Pokemon themselves are inherently overbearing, but the utility provided for the tier makes it hard to quickban them. We could always do a community suspect test, but with the constant wave of tournaments, tier shifts, and the sheer number of Pokemon this applies to, there's really no time to suspect all of these. Dudunsparce is a mixed bag of a setup sweeper, with incredibly potent Coil and Calm Mind sets all with various coverage and ability options. Coil with Serene Grace Body Slam effortlessly spread paralysis which makes it impossible to check long-term. Dragon Tail is a common last move, as it allows Dudunsparce to beat opposing bulky setup Pokemon like Coil Sandaconda and Eelektross. Calm Mind sets have the high BP Boomburst at their disposal, with Shadow Ball for Ghost-types and Thunder(bolt) for utility and coverage. The ridiculous bulk and reliable recovery of Dudunsparce bolstered further by Tera makes it a super easy-to-use setup sweeper with most counterplay being dependent on the set and good RNG.

:jolteon:
Jolteon is the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the tier, and with Tera it has borderline perfect coverage. This combined with Volt Switch to pivot on and weaken midground checks makes Jolteon practically impossible to check long-term. The issue with Jolteon being banned is it provides offensive counterplay to other offensive Pokemon like Hisuian Sneasel (who I also think is very broken but the rest of council doesn't seem to think so). Jolteon is a pretty cut-and-dry issue, it's too fast and strong but is a perfect offensive pivot for the tier.

:mesprit:
Mesprit's sheer set diversity, power, and bulk makes it a complete menace in the tier. bulky setup with Tera Draining Kiss is super difficult to take out, but offensive sets with Nasty Plot or Choice Scarf with Mystical Power can snowball super hard due to the lack of Steel-types. Mesprit also packs a ton of utility with Stealth Rock, Trick, and Healing Wish, but the offensive setup sets are debatably too overbearing for the tier and the counterplay is extremely limited to scouting the sets which only gives them more opportunities for free setup. This creates the feeling of walking on eggshells with the Pokemon only to get swept completely if you guess wrong.

:oricorio:
Same song and dance (you may now laugh) as Dudunsparce and Mesprit. If you try to scout the set, you let it setup. Oricorio has so many varying spreads, tera types, and moveset options and sometimes it can just have the perfect combination to 6-0 you. another cut-and-dry issue, Tera + setup is pretty silly.

:sneasel-hisui:
Zoroark is as broken as it was the day it left, with absurd set diversity and Illusion it can be an absolute nightmare to play against, especially when disguised as Hisuian Sneasel, who we didn't have last time Zoroark was here. Despite the various sets Zoroark can run; Choice Scarf, Swords Dance, Physical with Encore, Mixed with Knock Off, there is one set that COMPLETELY breaks Zoroark and that is Choice Specs. The sheer power of Specs- and potentially Tera-boosted Dark Pulse is far too much for the tier, especially when Zoroark can lure in specially frail Pokemon like Sandaconda and Klawf to open up its teammates. In my opinion, Zoroark is far too much for the tier in my opinion.

Council is holding a slate with these Pokemon as we speak, the results will have potential quickbans and a tiering survey regarding our next suspect test.
And as promised, the council has held a vote on these five Pokemon. Firstly, with Finchinator stepping down after a long and committed tenure, the council has decided to add GXE. GXE is a seasoned NU player and considered one of, if not THE, very best one. With GXE's votes included, Jolteon, Oricorio, and Zoroark are all banned from NeverUsed. tagging Kris and Marty because every other ban post does!

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I will keep these brief because I already explained them above;

Jolteon's unmatched speed and perfect coverage made it nearly impossible to check defensively. Pure special walls could tank its coverage but simply got hit with Volt Switch and eventually worn down over the course of a game. Jolteon's solid special bulk and Calm Mind also provided it ample setup opportunities and Volt Absorb gives it a great matchup against the other two most dominant Electric-types in Rotom and Eelektross.

Oricorio's deep bag of tricks made it feel like walking on eggshells to play against. Is it max speed or physically defensive? Is it Taunt or Substitute or Roost last? Does it even have dual STAB? is the Flying STAB Hurricane or Air Slash? Is it Tera Ground or Water or Fairy or Grass? Depending on the answers, would-be checks become setup fodder or flatout lose, and scouting against a Pokemon with Quiver Dance is simply not feasible.

We all knew this one was coming. On top of Zoroark's already phenomenal offensive prowess through Choice Specs-boosted Dark Pulse, Knock Off, plentiful coverage and utility options, and U-turn, Zoroark's illusions made an already-difficult Pokemon to check impossible. You want to switch your Sandaconda into a Sneasel-Hisui? Well congrats you just lost your Sneasel-Hisui check. Too fast, too strong, too diverse, etc etc..

Anyways expect a tiering survey regarding the Pokemon not banned already (and maybe some others like a certain Pokemon I already mentioned in this post perhaps..) in the very near future!
 

Aawin

whole lotta vibes in the city
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With the banning of Jolteon, Oricorio-Baile, and Zoroark, we can look at the teambuilder and identify a few winners and losers from the bans-

Winners

Rotom :rotom: -
Rotom is a major winner from these bans and should return to its former glory (or somewhat close to it). On certain teams, it's hard to justify using Rotom over Jolteon, as Jolteon provided a major 130 speed tier with stronger Thunderbolts and Volt Switches. Additionally, the adaptation of Tera Normal Jolteon made Rotom setup bait. There's less competition for a fast Electric with solid utility now with Jolteon gone, and I feel Pokemon like Raichu (either form) may also be lowkey winners from this shift too. Additionally, Rotom feared everything from Zoroark due to its fragility and poor bulk. Zoro could easily force mind games or outright OHKO Rotom with a Sucker Punch.

Pretty much the entire tier- This may seem general or vague, but with Oricorio being banned, I think there's a plethora of Pokemon that benefit from its departure. Firstly, Fire + Flying is incredible coverage that hits pretty much everything neutrally barring the rare Klawf or other Rocks. Oricorio majorly punished fatter builders, as it could snowball using Taunt + Quiver Dance and realistically 6 viable Tera types to exploit weaknesses. These builds are no longer targeted by Oricorio, so its one less thing to be scared of I guess.

Zoroark's ban is an interesting case, as like Oricorio, there's a lot that benefits inherently by a really fast, strong, and versatile attacker leaving the tier. Firstly, the vexatious guessing games Illusion provided during a battle were incredibly difficult to track (that might just be because my brain is small but) and created a horrid game experience in my opinion. Countless times I got caught in a vortex and lost an important Pokemon in the process (my Sandaconda or Sableye versus a Zoroark + Sneasel-H build, for example). For specific Pokemon that benefit from the Zoro ban, Bruxish :bruxish: comes to mind, as it loses 1 Pokemon faster than it, and one that could easily click Sucker Punch to revenge it.


Losers (slightly)

Realistically, there's not a ton of Pokemon that suffer from these bans, but there are a few that lose great offensive partners, such as Scyther, Sneasel-Hisui, Clawitzer, and Tauros to name a few. I feel that VoltTurn offense took a pretty large hit with the best progress makers in Jolteon and Zoroark being booted out. We still have a lot of good pivots, but they don't stack up to the effectiveness of either mon. Though Jolteon did a lot of the damage on its own and partners weren't incredibly reliant on it, its hard to deny that Jolteon's impact won't be felt for these teams. It's a double edged sword.

Qwilfish-Hisui :qwilfish-hisui:loses two Pokemon it could pseudo-check the three bans with Barb Barrage + generally fine bulk with Eviolite. However, Jolteon just clicked Volt Switch, and Zoro could click Knock Off or U-Turn with no real downside except for a potential Poison Point proc.


Pokemon to Watch (new meta trends?)

:raichu: :raichu-alola: :electrode: - Now, granted, the three of these might not rise to prominence in the tier due to major major flaws within their kits.

The Raichus in particular are slower and weaker at face value. But, they do have neat aspects. Raichu has Nasty Plot and phenomenal coverage without needing Tera Blast. We saw a few Raichu used in NUPL with Draining Kiss + Tera Fairy, which is a pretty cool way to muscle through checks and become a healing monster. Electric Terrain exists I guess, which means AlolaChu might see usage there or in a similar role to its counterpart. Alolan Raichu has Nasty Plot + Psyshock, which allows it to muscle past Blissey and other generally annoying special blankets.

Electrode is far weaker than Jolteon, but provides another cool pivot with 150 base speed. It also has cool utility with Taunt and Aftermath or Static to force damage or status (30% of the time) onto physical attackers like Scyther, Sneasel-H, Floatzel, Samurott, and others. Choiced items could be pretty cool on Electrode, since it has a bit more freedom to run Modest nature over Timid.


Dudunsparce and Mesprit not being banned came as a shock, but I expect these Pokemon to still be phenomenal. Excited to see how the meta develops from here :)
 
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Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Losers

Realistically, there's not a ton of Pokemon that suffer from these bans, but there are a few that lose great offensive partners, such as Scyther, Sneasel-Hisui, Clawitzer, and Tauros to name a few. I feel that VoltTurn offense took a pretty large hit with the best progress makers in Jolteon and Zoroark being booted out. We still have a lot of good pivots, but they don't stack up to the effectiveness of either mon.
I was going to make a Winners / Losers post, but Aawin beat me to it, but I did want to talk about some of the mons mentioned here because I definitely disagree with a few of the things mentioned as losers on the offensive side of things. I don't think VoltTurn actually takes a hit with Jolteon leaving the tier, specifically because the mon did everything for itself more than it was an enabler for offense. Other pivots, such as Scyther, Rotom, Eelektross, and Bombirdier all get better with this ban, and imo, so does the playstyle. Jolteon's absence also makes running offensive playstyles much more enticing since you don't have to worry about Jolteon outspeeding your entire squad and forcing you to play specific defensive lines because you can't afford to get a play wrong. Now to the mons mentioned in the post, specifically these two:

:scyther: - Although it's true that Scyther lost a potential VoltTurn partner, the truth is, Scyther's best partner wasn't really Jolteon and it didn't rely on it to create U-Turn shenanigans. If anything the loss of Jolteon takes away one of the only Pokemon faster than Scyther that could outspeed and KO it which definitely makes this mon much more threatening. On top of that, the rise in Rotom is probably going to be a good thing for Scyther since it always has Thief in the back to tech for the Electric-type this time. Definitely a winner from this ban.

:Sneasel-Hisui: - Another Pokemon in a similar boat to Scyther after these bans. Although Zoro was a perfect partner for it, the ban of Jolteon makes it the fastest Pokemon in the tier not carrying a Choice Scarf, taking away one of the only forms of offensive counterplay towards this demon. Just like pre Zoro, this Pokemon is broken af and only more broken now. Another winner easily.

I think overall these bans become a net positive for basically every offensive Pokemon in the tier. These two are probably some of the more prominent examples, but Pokemon such as Rotom, Samurott, Toxicroak, Bombirdier, Vivillion, etc all get better in some way, shape, or form.
 

Rabia

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SUMMARY OF THE AUGUST SURVEY:

  • 38 responses, a good bit lower than last time so I'll look into better advertising of this next time we do one.
  • 6.79 on the tiering balance scale, 6.69 on enjoyability scale. These questions were likely difficult to answer because we just had a tiering slate that IN THEORY made the tier easier to build and play in, but these answers show the community would've appreciated proactivity with our tiering approach. Home and DLC makes lower tier tiering much different compared to prior gens, so perhaps a more aggressive approach with bans needs to happen.
  • Dudunsparce received a 4.0 average. This is quite high and lets the tiering council know people aren't happy with its place in the metagame.
    • Of particular note, though, 27/38 respondents rated it at a 4 or higher, and only 4/38 rated it at a 1 or 2. Dudunsparce actually rises to a 4.26 when accounting for those outlier votes.
  • Mesprit received a 3.42 average. This is also quite high and we will be discussing potential action on Mesprit too.
  • Samurott and Hisuian Sneasel did not receive significant support for tiering action, with the former receiving a 2.34 average and the latter receiving a 2.6 average.
  • Of the write-in comments, Bruxish actually received some decent support for attention. It's unlikely we'll get to it, but it does make sense that along with Samurott, the physical Water-types are feasting in a Vaporeon-less tier.
Thank you everyone for your responses, expect a tiering-related post SOON!
 
Dudunsparce received a 4.0 average. This is quite high and lets the tiering council know people aren't happy with its place in the metagame.
  • Of particular note, though, 27/38 respondents rated it at a 4 or higher, and only 4/38 rated it at a 1 or 2. Dudunsparce actually rises to a 4.26 when accounting for those outlier votes.
Whith Dudunsparce getting such high vote and recently having a 50/50 qb vote. Could this be a option for a suspect test? The community wants this mon out but the council can't get a common opinion on it so suspecting could be good... The only i see limiting this is HOME Drops come in next month so many things gonna change even the liberation of all BL mons
 

Rabia

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DannyeternGXELuckmeriPokesliceRabiaTogkeyzS
DudunsparceBANBANBANBANBANBANBANBANBAN

As promised, we conducted another internal council vote on Dudunsparce following the tiering survey. Although only 7/9 of council have voted so far (edit: everyone has now voted), everyone has voted to ban Dudunsparce. Thus, Dudunsparce is now banned from SV NU! (Kris or Marty please implement when you can)

Dudunsparce has been on the radar since the start of NUPL, where its Coil set really took off. Body Slam + Serene Grace is really hard to play around and lets Dudunsparce cheese past many potential checks to it, and Dragon Tail means you MUST have Tera Fairy on your setup sweeper if you want to try and set up alongside Dudunsparce. Dudunsparce's own potential Tera Fairy obviously negates this as a form of counterplay to it while also making it hard for Fighting-types to consistently revenge kill.

If this was all we had to deal with, Dudunsparce would be fine. However, it's not. Coil sets can run Poison Jab to deal with opposing Fairy-types, and Tera Poison 1) makes the move actually do damage and 2) makes it so Hisuian Sneasel and Toxicroak can't midground against it with their Poison-type attacks. Furthermore, Calm Mind sets are STILL REALLY GOOD and have completely different counterplay to Coil ones, making Dudunsparce checks vary wildly between sets. All of this proved too much to keep it in the format, and this is a decision we likely could've come to earlier if we were more harsh with what we wanted to ban.
 
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Rabia

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GP & NU Leader
PokemonDannyeternGXELuckMeriPokesliceRabiaTogkeyzS
MespritBANDNBDNBDNBDNBBANDNBBANDNB

We voted on Mesprit as well. The reasons are: 1) Mesprit got enough consideration in the survey for tiering action, and 2) there is not much time left this metagame cycle to run a suspect test, so it'd be a waste of time. Mesprit only received 3 ban votes to 6 do not ban votes, so it remains NU.

---

From here, I want to segue into discussing whatever Pokemon you've had fun using this last month. What's better with the bans NU has done? What's worse? Anything you find swinging really hard into the metagame? I personally want to try using more Coil Eelektross again; the AV set has kind of been picking up use again, but I think Coil should be a lot better with Dudunsparce gone ^^
 

plznostep

Flittle Fanatic
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:sv/oricorio-pa
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Oricorio-Pa'u
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Oricorio-Pa'u has been one of my favourite new Pokemon to use in the current meta. It is much like it's relative in Oricorio-Baile, but has a worse typing, especially for mono attacking sets with Revelation Dance. It is a very flexible Pokemon to work with. You can go fully defensive EV's with Quiver Dance, using it to beat and set up on the various Fighting-types in the tier such as Medicham and Toxicroak, or you can go max speed to sacrifice some bulk so you can immediately outspeed scarfers such as Rotom from Tricking and ruining you. Fully Offensive sets are also viable, making Oricorio-Pa'u much more immediately threatening and of course Defog sets while uncommon are still viable to run on it.

However, one of my favourite sets to toy around with was Taunt Oricorio-Pa'u. Taunt allows Oricorio-Pa'u to beat Haze Pokemon such as Articuno and Cryogonal, and Terastallizing into a Fairy-type completely stops Dragon Tail as well from Pokemon such as Appletun. This can make Oricorio-Pa'u much more difficult to deal with, however, there is a caveat. Unlike most other Oricorio formes, Oricorio-Pa'u must run mono Flying coverage as there are an abudance of Dark-types in the tier that are immune to its Relevation Dance, thus making this set more vulnerable to Pokemon such as Rotom. Terastallizing can help with this as well, Dark gives Oricorio-Pa'u resistances to Ghost and Dark while also making Oricorio-Pa'u immune to Prankster from Pokemon like Sableye. Ground is also good to be immune to Electric moves and resist Poison and Rock moves from Pokemon such as Sneasel-Hisui or Tauros-Paldea. This flexability makes Oricorio-Pa'u fit on a variety of teams and thus has been one of my favourite Pokemon to use in the current meta, and i suggest people who haven't been using it to give it a try.
 

Fragmented

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:avalugg-hisui:Going to make a case for this as a niche spinner. It's probably not as good as regular Avalugg and Cryogonal, but it somehow feels less passive. I tried both Ice Fang and Crunch (for spinblockers) as a last move to some success, and it's nice to be able to hit Appletun before you get hit yourself. Funnily enough, the higher speed came in (situationally) useful at +2, when it was able to outspeed Hwilfish and prevent it from setting up more spikes. Rock typing is pretty detrimental, but it baits Fighting and Ground attacks for Mesprit. Could argue that Flying and Poison resist is useful to pair with Grasses, but it's still kind of forced out since the relevant Flyings and Poisons get CC or some coverage or other. It's still serviceable and shouldn't be completely dismissed.

:lilligant:Been enjoying this since its reign of terror in PU. Resists Aqua Jet and has similar bulk to Pa'u, and hits pretty hard prior to boosting as well. I like QD + 3 Attacks with Tera Rock to dink Cryo and Cuno and other Flyings before they tera, though Tera Fire can be used to do the same thing + resist Ice moves + donk Hneasel and Croak harder as well. Without Pollen Puff, it's kind of walled by Appletun, and allows you to beat other Grasses like opposing Lilli without committing to Tera. I like it over Viv and Pa'u mainly cause of the higher SpAtk, but it also comes in much easier on Volt Switches, and can attack and heal in the same turn, plus the coverage it can run makes it hard to consistently check aside from Tera Dragon Cuno and Stoss Blissey.
 
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View attachment 542591Oricorio-Pa'uView attachment 542591

Oricorio-Pa'u has been one of my favourite new Pokemon to use in the current meta. It is much like it's relative in Oricorio-Baile, but has a worse typing, especially for mono attacking sets with Revelation Dance. It is a very flexible Pokemon to work with. You can go fully defensive EV's with Quiver Dance, using it to beat and set up on the various Fighting-types in the tier such as Medicham and Toxicroak, or you can go max speed to sacrifice some bulk so you can immediately outspeed scarfers such as Rotom from Tricking and ruining you. Fully Offensive sets are also viable, making Oricorio-Pa'u much more immediately threatening and of course Defog sets while uncommon are still viable to run on it.

However, one of my favourite sets to toy around with was Taunt Oricorio-Pa'u. Taunt allows Oricorio-Pa'u to beat Haze Pokemon such as Articuno and Cryogonal, and Terastallizing into a Fairy-type completely stops Dragon Tail as well from Pokemon such as Appletun. This can make Oricorio-Pa'u much more difficult to deal with, however, there is a caveat. Unlike most other Oricorio formes, Oricorio-Pa'u must run mono Flying coverage as there are an abudance of Dark-types in the tier that are immune to its Relevation Dance, thus making this set more vulnerable to Pokemon such as Rotom. Terastallizing can help with this as well, Dark gives Oricorio-Pa'u resistances to Ghost and Dark while also making Oricorio-Pa'u immune to Prankster from Pokemon like Sableye. Ground is also good to be immune to Electric moves and resist Poison and Rock moves from Pokemon such as Sneasel-Hisui or Tauros-Paldea. This flexability makes Oricorio-Pa'u fit on a variety of teams and thus has been one of my favourite Pokemon to use in the current meta, and i suggest people who haven't been using it to give it a try.
promocodius.com
Oricorio Pau is one of the most interesting new Pokémon to emerge in the current meta. It is very flexible and can be used in a variety of roles. I especially love using him as a tank, using Quiver Dance to increase his attack and defense, and then hit Pokémon like Medicham and Toxicroak with his powerful Flying type attacks.
 
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Well, since Rabia mentioned it...

:Eelektross: This mon is indeed actively reclaiming it's former glory. It slowed down for a while thanks to Jolteon being nigh insurmountable Electric type competition and dudun being the better Coil sweeper, but it's back to doing its thing. I haven't played a ton with AV, but when I have, it is very customizable and very threatening as an offensive defensive mon. Between U-turn, Volt Switch, Giga Drain, Dragon Tail, Discharge, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, etc., you can pick 4 moves that provide enough power, utility, or both and go ham. Personally, I prefer a set of U-turn/Dragon Tail/Discharge/Giga Drain, but be wary of the tradeoffs you have to make with its moveset. Flamethrower is needed to better deal with Magneton, which is lowkey an enormous threat that AV Eel is an excellent check to. Thunderbolt, while lacking the para chance of Discharge, does have a noticeable amount of extra oomph that's useful in a late-game scenario. As long as your careful in the builder though, you can't really go wrong with AV Eel. As for Coil, it is back and it is terrifying. You really don't need more than one boost to get going, and with how easy it is to fit hazard stack alongside Eel with the defensive utility it provides naturally, Dragon Tail becomes an immediate chip machine. The biggest difference with Coil Eel that I've noticed since last time it was dominating is the greater variety in Tera types. Steel used to be the standard, and it's still very good, but with the proliferation of Dragon Tail phazers, Tera Fairy became the standard, which is also excellent today. Those are generally the most popular but I've also seen Tera Dark to shit on Sableye, I've even seen Tera Ground and Poison, which... ye idk what ladder is cooking with those two. The biggest thing abt Eel in general that I've noticed is that it really appreciates Wish support to sustain it in a longer game. However, like I said in my VR post, spikes are really scary atm and all of the Wish-passers are susceptible to them, which often forces you to play more aggressively with Eel than you'd like in those longer games, since it's Spikess immunity makes it a far better short-term switch to a number of mons. Ig what I'm trying to say is could we get some better removal RU like stop giving us at-best alright scraps. Anyways, that's my two cents on the return of the Eel, thanks for coming to my TED talk.
 

Aawin

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MEGA POST INBOUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TL;DR- Pyroar is absurd in this metagame due to its incredible speed tier, STAB combination, and unique defensive utility. Giannis Antetokommo-o vs GXE for Grand Slam Playoffs is analyzed to show how positioning and small details can allow Pyroar to feast.


:sv/pyroar: :sv/pyroar-f:

After watching tour games and playing tests / talking with some people, one Pokemon that I think should be on everyone's radar as a major threat is Pyroar. This stupid fucking lion possesses one of the best STAB combinations in the tier and also has an incredible speed tier of 106, allowing it to outpace Pokemon such as Scyther and Cryogonal. I feel that the counterplay for a well played Pyroar is incredibly limited defensively with Appletun and Blissey coming to mind as go-to answers.

However, I feel both of these answers are exploitable with Pyroar running Taunt and really any Tera it pleases. Blissey in particular (if its not running Shadow Ball) is stonewalled by Taunt + Tera Ghost, forcing a stalemate with Pyroar. Pyroar can also run Wisp to force smidges of chip each turn and allow for it to slow burn (no pun intended) through Blissey. I think Pyroar also has the flexibility to run Work Up with Taunt on certain builds to make the SBall-less Blissey MU (and the MU versus other fat fucks) a lot more favorable.

Offensive counterplay exists in the form of Sneasel-H and other scarfers to revenge kill it. Though, as I already stated, I feel that Pyroar has a bit of freedom when choosing its Tera type. Although its defensive profile is not phenomenal, I feel that both Tera Ghost and Tera Poison can be explored a bit more versus mons like Toxicroak and Sneasel-H, while still maintaining resistances that it would have as a Fire type (Grass and Bug). Pyroar's offensive presence feels incredibly warping in the tier, and frankly it makes me shit myself whenever I face it. It's a mon similar to Jolteon- a frail-ish Special Attacker with strong STABS, a unique defensive profile, and the ability to punch holes effectively while also being able to abuse Tera to flip a battle on its head. Frankly, I find people downplaying this mon to be incredibly silly (don't get me started on the Mesprit slate, some of you are REALLY silly gooses).

For notable tournament games, lets look at GXE (resident council member) and Giannis Antetokommo-o (resident tournament guru and one of the best players on the site period).

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND WATCHING THE REPLAY IN FULL WITH THE BELOW COMMENTARY IN MIND


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nu-709639
TEAM PREVIEW

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As we can see, there's some identical portions of these builds (as NU is known for). However, there are a few notes,

- GXE has brought a team with two potential deterrents in Heasel and (what can be assumed to be) a Scarf Rotom, as well as an assumed SpDef Dudunsparce.
- However, even with these Pokemon, Giannis still has an incredible matchup with Pyroar. The Lion torches the fuck out of Sandaconda, lives any hit from Rotom and can retaliate with a Fire Blast, can burn the Dudunsparce, has a STAB Fire Blast for the Articuno and Cacturne, and (if it's Tera Ghost) can burn the Sneasel as well.

In this game, it makes me question whether or not GXE knew about how good Pyroar actually is, or if he decided that the combo of Sneasel, Rotom, and Dudunsparce would be enough.

How Giannis sets up the Pyroar for success (in my eyes). These are match highlights and events that happen that pave the way for Pyroar. Most of these are small things that Giannis does as a player to thoroughly outplay and out-progress GXE.

At team preview, Giannis should identify that Pyroar goes fucking federal if it is positioned properly. With Pivots galore for GA, it's not super difficult to figure out when Pyroar can put in work and when it can't come out of its Pokeball just yet. Now granted, I have very limited tour experience and my in-battle knowledge kinda sucks but this is how I interpreted how the battle went / would go.

- After a bit of chip damage to GXE's Sandaconda on turn 6, Giannis forces Sandaconda out the following turn with Lurantis, forcing Sandaconda to take another 6% from SR.

- On turn 8, Giannis reads GXE's double into Sneasel-H and promptly goes into Rotom. This practically reveals the Rotom is scarfed, as it takes rocks damage as it switches in.

- On turn 9, GXE switches back into the Sandaconda, attempting to block a Volt Switch (I presume). The Sandaconda takes 6% from the SR and gets burned by Wisp, forcing it down to 66%.

- Turn 10 was interesting as well, as Giannis read a switch out and stayed in to WISP AGAIN. GXE switches into Cacturne, but dodges the Wisp. This kinda sucks for Pyroar, as if this is Sucker Punch Cacturne, forcing chip and weakening the Sucker for Pyroar in the 1v1 is a nice insurance.

- Fast forwarding a bit, Giannis forces about 16% chip onto Dudunsparce with Articuno, and also revealing it is CM Dudunsparce. On Turn 17, Giannis goes into their Rotom after U-Turning out with Articuno. Knowing that the Dudunsparce is the wincon, GXE switches into Sneasel to absorb the incoming Trick.

- Giannis then goes Sandaconda to bait whatever move the Sneasel wants to go for. It lost its Choice Band, so this shit is going to hit like a wet paper bag and force itself to take further chip. They read GXE's double into Rotom and we get our first Pyroar siting on Turn 21.

- Giannis allows for the Pyroar to get Tricked by GXE's Rotom on Turn 21 and does 77% in return with Fire Blast to the Rotom, leaving Rotom at a dismal 2%. The Rotom is subsequently sacked the next turn. That's 1 kill for Pyroar

- GXE brings out the Dudunsparce on Turn 23, and Giannis gets 45% off with another Fire Blast. Based on calcs, this may reveal that GXE has no SpDef investment, and also possibly revealing Giannis got a near-min roll (252 SpA Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dudunsparce: 202-238 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery).

- Pyroar switches out on Turn 24 after that as GXE clicks Roost. GXE then switches to Cacturne on Turn 25 as Giannis Volt Switches into the Pyroar again. To preserve the Cacturne for later, GXE switches out to Sandaconda and it dies to the incoming Fire Blast on Turn 26. 2 kills for Pyroar so far.

- The same sequence occurs as above. GXE goes into the Dudunsparce and clicks Calm Mind this time. GXE switches in fear of Trick, and Giannis gets a free ass Volt Switch right back into Pyroar on Turn 28. On Turn 29, Giannis stays in to absorb a Cacturne Sucker Punch that does 41% (would be doing around 20-ish if Giannis landed earlier). Pyroar lives on 10% and kills the Cacturne with yet another Fire Blast. 3 kills for Pyroar this game.

- Turns 30 through 40 are positioning battles and forcing Dudunsparce to waste PP. Giannis uses Tera on Articuno on Turn 33 to become a Ghost-type and become immune to Boomburst from GXE's Dudunsparce. Turn 40 is a pivotal turn, as Giannis is able to get rocks cleared with Lurantis.

- Giannis gets a bit of chip with the Lurantis as it folds to a +2 Boomburst on Turn 42. On the Previous Turn, GXE tried to cheese a Thunder Paralysis to no avail.

- On Turn 43, Giannis' Rotom sends out a parting gift of a Choice Band to the Dudunsparce. The wincon for GXE has been neutered as it locks itself into Thunder. Turns 43-49 are more boring ass Articuno vs Dudunsparce positioning battles, and as GXE locks himself into Roost with Dudunsparce, Articuno pivots into the Pyroar on Turn 49. Pyroar gets TWO BURNS on BOTH DUDUNSPARCE AND ARTICUNO, sealing the game and allowing for an eventual victory, as Giannis is then able to beatdown the rest of GXE's team with SubNP Mesprit and win on turn 63.

So as a result of this battle, Pyroar's matchup was proven to be incredible as predicted at team preview, and Giannis played to that advantage perfectly. To sum up the results of Pyroar's effectiveness in this game, it,

- Netted 3 kills on Rotom, Sandaconda, and Cacturne, GXE's defensive backbone along with Articuno

- Got two game-sealing burns onto Articuno and GXE's wincon Dudunsparce and should've had a 3rd burn on Cacturne had it landed.

Now, can we chalk this up to a phenomenal matchup? Probably. However, this battle showcases the nature of Pyroar and its impact on the metagame. It's noteworthy to discuss that this portion is not meant to lambast GXE. If anything, it's to showcase a high-level game on an immensely competitive stage. I give major props to both players. The forgoing of a consistent Pyroar answer (frankly, because there aren't any that aren't exploitable) is one that came to bite GXE unfortunately. This battle is just one many out there that showcase how prevalent Pyroar is, and how everyone should be aware of its warping nature.
 
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