Metagame NP: Stage 5 - Red Ruby Da Sleeze (DLC1 Movepool Updates)

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Kiyo

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:flamigo: my original thought on this was "whoohoo, a physical attacker that my opponent cannot religously hard to sandaconda on, they might actually have to think" but yeah there simply are not enough walls that avoid a 2hko (i think its just the 2 in blim and hound) and the typical fighting counterplay isn't there due to scrappy (the intim immunity is what pushes it over the edge for me) we have some solid 4x resists to the stabs that can potentially punish, but theres simply no downside to using flamigo and it nabs ohkos far too comfortably. i generally prefer metagames with nukes like this that punish defense teams. also burning ur tera to take down a pokemon that ur opponent is fine with trading for damage anyways feels bad so i dont rate that counterplay as highly as i do for other mons.

:delphox: i think a lot of the "tera lets it get past counters" argument is kinda weak, but my best counterargument is that you can use it too lol (see: hariyama) np taking a turn to make this thing into an ohko machine is really important and some of the arguments in this thread seem to assume that fox gets +2 automatically. also noteable that you can check this with scarfers most of the time (i saw flame charge once, but idk u've gotta kinda let it win to give a flame charge and np turn..) I'll admit tera can make the checking with scarfers idea a little harder, but without running any calcs im pretty sure this thing is frail enough to drop to neutral attacks from most physical scarfers and with chip can be dropped by special ones too (esp if they unfavorably tera into ur scarf mon) also ur scarfer can tera too. i just think this is a lot more dynamic than the arguments in the thread present, and the counterplay is necessarily more dynamic as well.

:meloetta: gotta admit the psyshock calcs do way more than i'd like, i've only run specs myself so i can't comment a ton on the other sets. definitely easier to check and halt progress than the other strong clicker flamigo. i'd prefer to keep this in the tier and see how things progress, its speed tier is in a weird spot and theres a good chunk of strong physical attackers faster than it that can hit it for good neutral damage. choice sets also take hazard damage that sticks and can put u into revenge ko range if you pick the wrong move early. this mon feels borderline and is arguably over the line if you prefer a defensive playstyle, but i think its straightforward enough to play against (at least while specs is the most threatening set) and can be forced out by most of the common offense mons so its not like you don't get the opportunity to punch back. i'd also throw the u can tera too argument in here against those that think tera pushes it over the line.

:hariyama: bd sets are overrated imo, it misses out on a lot of ohkos even with tera steel bp and there are a fair number of faster pokemon that resist bp and can ohko in return, i.e. tauros-fire, delphox, salazzle, floatzel, (and anything faster that you want to tera to resist bp). assault vest is a solid tank and w/ tera you can check most special attackers with relative ease. theres a fair few drain punch targets in the tier, and i've found it comfortable to keep hariyama at high hp unless im trading it for one of the strong spattackers in the tier.
+2 252 SpA Delphox Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Tera Steel Hariyama: 236-282 (55 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Delphox Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Steel Hariyama: 180-212 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Tera Steel Hariyama Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Delphox: 180-212 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (unsure if fairy is most popular but i saw it mentioned once or twice in discussion)
252+ Atk Tera Steel Hariyama Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 288-340 (98.9 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Steel Hariyama Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 356-420 (122.3 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
i think yama does similar things into meloetta but its definitely able to punish you easier and also doesnt have to burn a turn boosting to be a threat the way fox does.

:primeape: i don't rate the bulk up set very high and i've never been in a situation where i've hit it with uturns or something and its rage fist spirals out of control (even if it could stack high enough to do so its slow enough to be checked comfortably by non scarfers on offense, altho depending on boosts it might take more than one to get thru it i suppose)

:salazzle: i think this is probably fine, but would like more time to see how things progress. i generally don't mind offensive threats when they have 68/60/60 bulk as theyre pretty easy to check, but defense players must have nightmares about encore and sub toxic.

:zoroark: i think this is probably unhealthy, when it works its incredibly potent and feels demoralizing to play against since it arguably becomes a guessing game (sometimes u can sniff it out, but it definitely doesnt make my spidey sense tingle all the time). i think the points about it being a good mon w/o illusion really hit the nail on the head, and the mindgames make it awkward to develop gameplans into.
 
Alright so since I believe that we are getting bans for Flamigo :flamigo:, Delphox :delphox:, Meloetta :meloetta:, & Zoroark :zoroark:, I wanna go over a few Pokémon that I think would benefit from them being banned.

Scyther :scyther:
Scyther, at least when I'm on ladder, hasn't seen much usage due to Delphox and Flamigo, but with the bans of those two, I think it will be vaulted back up to being pretty dang solid, especially if DLC gifts it some important moves like possibly Dual Wingbeat. Swords Dance sets would be heavily boosted by Dual Wingbeat, and I think that something like Tera Dragon could be nice to prevent Jolteon and Hisuian Electrode from going nuts on Scyther.

Hoopa :hoopa:
Hoopa was already insane prior to the big NU shifts, even being banned at one point, but I think with Zoroark and Flamigo being banned, it would definitely show itself to be a huge problem in the tier. Like it or not, 150 SpAtk is not ok in the NU tier. Calm Mind or Nasty Plot sets tend to have a huge impact in endgame scenarios, and with Flamigo and Zoroark being gone, it would just become a catastrophe. Choice Scarf sets also go ham since now you can outspeed non-Scarf Flamigo, Zoroark, & Mismagius.

Hariyama & Primeape :hariyama: :primeape:
With Flamigo being banned, these two would become much easier to use, especially Primeape. Primeape trades in a bit of attack for more speed and Eviolite boosts while Hariyama can be a huge bulky problem. Both can easily run Bulk Up sets with Drain Punch and Bullet Punch for Priority for Hariyama while Primeape has Rage Fist which can snowball right outta control. However, I don't think they would be the best fighting types in the tier, that honor goes to the Last Pokémon that gets buffed with these potential bans. It's one that I have been advocating for a while now... and dear god I am scared...

Heracross :heracross:
Where do I even start with Heracross? Heracross will one of, if not the, most scariest threats after the bans of Flamigo, Delphox, & Meloetta. Literally, I think the best set for Heracross right now is Trailblaze + 3 Attacks. Toss on Moxie, a Life Orb, and either Tera Poison to turn off all your weaknesses or Tera Bug/Fighting to get extra STAB, and holy shit. I get why Heracross isn't used much right now, but it is a threat for a reason. Hell, I don't even need to explain much more, I can literally post a calc of Heracross against the Best Pokemon in the tier, Sandaconda.

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sandaconda: 305-360 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

In short, I am scared.
 

etern

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Hi again everyone. The first council slate of September has concluded, and the results are in. Shoutouts to Kiyo Machineae Finchinator and skierdude101 for giving their input via the rotating slate. As a reminder, a minimum of 8/12 votes in favor of banning are needed for a Pokemon to be banned to NUBL.



Therefore, :Flamigo: Flamigo, :Meloetta: Meloetta, :Delphox: Delphox, and :Zoroark: Zoroark are now banned from NU!

Tagging Marty and Kris to implement these changes when possible, thank you.

How do you think the meta will adapt to these bans? Let us know below, and stay tuned for another update following the release of DLC1, with which we can expect some moveset changes to existing mons and potentially relevant NFE's joining the meta.
 

Finchinator

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Very happy with these bans!
How do you think the meta will adapt to these bans?
I think that now is going to be a great time for Hariyama. Obviously the BD sets are threatening, but other attacking variants are going to hold a lot of weight with less threatening options (Flamigo, Meloetta, Delphox) and a slightly slower format.

I am also curious how the Fighting-Dark-Psychic trio of interwebbed checking on balance/bulky-offense evolves with some key players being taken out of the mix. My guess is we will see some capable replacements from things that are already viable, but figuring out what takes up what piece of the pie chart of usage is interesting to follow.

Finally, I think Salazzle is going to evolve into one of the top Pokemon. It never clicked with me yet as many other options were taking up too many team spots it potentially could, but now it has more room, it is one of the fastest non-Electric options in the format, and it is one of the stronger special attack/set-up options. I predict it will end up very high in usage when it was more good than great before.
 
:heracross: stands out as being a lot better now in addition to Hariyama. The removal of Delphox and Meloetta, who could easily revenge killed unboosted sets, and the removal of Flamigo which competed for it as both a Fighting-type and a Choiced one at that, both benefit it greatly. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets on the next council slate.

:Passimian: also stands out as a replacement for Flamigo as a Choiced Fighting-type due to its U-turn access as well as Knock Off, which set it apart from Scarf Heracross.
 
Happy to see where the tier goes from here! I didn’t have any terribly unique views on anything I voted on so didn’t feel the need for a big explanation post. I’m definitely interested to see where Hari/Ape/Lazzle end up in a few weeks once the dust settles and things are potentially revisited. At this time I could not justify a ban vote for them.

Like everyone else, I definitely think Heracross is something to keep an eye on. I do hope it will remain in check as it’s a fun presence in the tier.
 

Rabia

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I did a video covering my votes, but I wanted to explain my Salazzle + Zoroark votes given they differed from the result.

:sv/zoroark:
I ultimately voted DNB on Zoroark because I believed its potency to be too closely tied to already broken Pokemon. Flamigo, Delphox, and Salazzle (more on it later) are all incredible Zoroark partners that in my view needed to be banned, and I believe their threat level is what caused Zoroark to be so good in the first place. Those Illusion coinflips weren't dangerous because of Zoroark; they were dangerous because if it's NOT Zoroark, then you get so much more heavily punished. And yeah, this plays into the point I've made a lot in the past about how I imagined Zoroark would eventually be NU due to power level rising. Inevitably, we're going to reach the SS NU breakpoint where defensive power level is so high that it doesn't matter if Zoroark is cheesing damage on switch-ins anymore because those switch-ins will simply be so strong defensively that it doesn't threaten near OHKOs or 2HKOs anymore. I already believe we're there and so long as Terastallization is legal, you can play a lot of matchups into potential Zoroark far more safely through defensive uses. I definitely understand the ban perspective and was close to voting ban myself, but I think Zoroark was the Pokemon being enabled by broken threats this time around instead of vice versa.

:sv/salazzle:
I voted to ban Salazzle because I think it's far too good at forcing progress in the tier and lacks consistent enough counterplay for all its sets. Offensive counterplay isn't where I'd like it to be because faster Pokemon are almost exclusively Choice Scarf users outside of Jolteon and Hisuian Electrode, whereas defensive counterplay is overly vulnerable to Knock Off, Encore, or Toxic. There's something to the point of how bad Salazzle's bulk is, though, especially since you'd really like to leverage it aggressively to switch it in and because it's so easy to revenge kill when you can get your faster threats in. I think it ends up having a bit too much leverage around its counterplay, though, to where a ban would've been preferred. Maybe with Zoroark gone now my opinion will shift.

---

I want to talk about some non-slate Pokemon now! This is just gonna be whatever I've been using or think should be used more.

:sv/heracross:
Heracross is weird for me going forward because in theory there's no chance it's balanced. Yet, Flamigo's ban feels like a double-edged sword for it despite the initial "oh look less competition now!" take I've seen. The biggest reason for this is Tera Ghost becomes far more reliable again to check Fighting-types without a strong Scrappy Close Combat to worry about. So, foes like Sandaconda, Qwilfish, Orthworm, and even Blissey could be a bit more annoying. Tera Dark Throat Chop is certainly an answer to this, but you still run into the Speed issue if you lack Trailblaze, and Heracross's Speed isn't really a world-beater. A couple users mentioned running CC / Facade / Throat Chop / Trailblaze, and I think there's some merit to this set to have the overall best matchup possible against your counterplay. I'd like to hear more opinions on Heracross for sure.

:sv/tauros-paldea-fire:
Paldean Tauros is really cool albeit cucked by Qwilfish a bit. Much nicer blend of offense and defense compared to the Combat variant with Intimidate and its resistances. I ran Bulk Up / Close Combat / Raging Bull / Earthquake and it felt pretty nice. I think the biggest benefit is you don't care about Houndstone's or Sableye's Will-O-Wisp, and I imagine the latter will pick up in usage somewhat following Flamigo's ban (maybe not if Heracross surges lol). Choice item sets are likely strong too, though I've yet to try them.

:sv/tsareena:
I have... seen zero uses of this! I imagine part of it is Rocky Helmet Qwilfish being the predominant Spiker; Tsareena lost Knock Off this generation, meaning you can't reliably spin against Qwilfish at all. It doesn't help either that Rotom-C, Appletun, Decidueye, and Hisuian Electrode are all pretty stout competition for a Grass-type slot. Still, I do think Tsareena will pick up in use some as the metagame slows down a bit more and people experiment more with non-Heavy-Duty Boots sets on Pokemon like Paldean Tauros, Typhlosion, and perhaps even Scyther and Vivillon.
 
Therefore, :Flamigo: Flamigo, :Meloetta: Meloetta, :Delphox: Delphox, and :Zoroark: Zoroark are now banned from NU!
I am a prophet (I am not, I just knew what was gonna be banned)

Anyways, very happy with these bans, and I already named things that will get better with these bans. So I'm really happy with this outcome, and a bit scared of the future to come. For DLC1, I would not be surprised to see stuff like Milotic or Gligar in this tier, and I think that this gen's NU will resemble last gen's uh RU. Anyways, Heracross boutta go nuts for about 10 days. Yippee!!!
 
:salazzle: I'll admit I wasn't totally sold on this one, I thought the frailty issues and lack of great coverage would hold it back from being top tier (not that I thought it was bad, just overrated). But using it myself now, I see the argument for why some people think this will be too much moving forward. The speed tier is immaculate, you can spam Toxic almost as effectively as Flamigo spammed its Close Combats, Encore shuts down other support mons, Knock Off takes advantage of the switches it forces, Substitute somewhat mitigates it's frailty. And of course, offensive sets can be potent too if it catches you off guard thinking it's a usual utility set. I'll have to see how the metagame develops following the current bans before I say anything concrete about Salazzle's impact, but I wouldn't be shocked at all if it gets banned next slate (or at the very least the voting on it ends in a much closer result). I don't think it should've been banned this time, but I do also think people are right to be a little concerned about it.

:heracross: While I do see Rabia's point about Heracross in that it may be harder to sweep with the likely increase of Tera Ghost's running around, I still think this guy will be the go-to Fighting type cleaner/sweeper with Passimian close behind. I don't know if it will end up on the next slate, but I kind of hope it doesn't. All that said, people still may find Hariyama more worth it for a Fighting type if they're fine with having much more bulk at the expense of speed (that's what priority moves are for). I don't know, I think Heracross faces much more competition than Flamigo ever did, so I'm skeptical that it's in danger of being banned.

I think :blissey: and to a lesser degree :chansey: will benefit a lot from these bans. Both were threatened by Flamigo even with Tera Ghost, and they were mostly non-answers to Delphox/Meloetta thanks to Psyshock. I've liked Blissey a lot even before these bans thanks to it being the only viable cleric in the tier and it's ability to run other support moves like Thunder Wave and Stealth Rock. I imagine they will see at least a little more usage since 3/4 of the bans greatly threatened them, not that they liked dealing with physically oriented Zoroarks either.

All in all, I'm happy about the bans. :flamigo: was a no-brainer, :meloetta: and :delphox: didn't have enough checks/counterplay to justify their incredible list of strengths (Delphox to a higher degree than Meloetta in my opinion). :zoroark: I have mixed feelings on. On the one hand, it was very annoying to deal with if it had the right pieces around to make you feel like you could easily lose the game if you made the wrong choice. On the other hand though, I feel like you could often sniff out whether it was a Zoroark or not, and even if you attacked not thinking it was a Zoroark you were hitting, its bulk is so bad that even strong resisted hits would do a lot to it (unless of course you used a Psychic attack). At the end of the day however I don't disagree with the decision to ban it, especially because of the point made by someone that it would be good even without Illusion. Maybe it'll be reintroduced in the future and not be as stressful to deal with, but for now I think the tier is better without it.
 
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I saw a post in the PU NP that just had all the info about the new stuff that came to the tier from DLC1 and I just wanted to make a similar post for NU! I also put notable new moves that the mons have too! Let me know if I missed anything or if somethings wrong and I can edit the post :)

:Vulpix: Healing Wish
:piloswine: Trailblaze
:gurdurr: Knock Off, Defog
:gligar: Spikes, Knock Off, Toxic, Toxic Spikes
:clefairy: Knock Off

:ribombee:
:arbok: Knock Off, Toxic Spikes
:victreebel:
:poliwrath: Knock Off
:noctowl: Defog
:shiftry: Early Bird->Wind Rider, Toxic Spikes, Will-o-Wisp, Knock Off
:trevenant: Poltergeist, Knock Off
:golem::golem-alola:
:morpeko: Knock Off
:probopass: Body Press
:vikavolt:
:sandslash::sandslash-alola: Knock Off, Spikes
:weezing: Gunk Shot
:dusknoir: Poltergeist
:chimecho: Heal Bell
:swanna: Trailblaze, Knock Off, Flip Turn
:phione: Take Heart (Refresh+Calm Mind), Flip Turn, Knock Off

:Ambipom:
:Chandelure:
:Cramorant:
:Dipplin:
:Ludicolo:
:Sinistcha:
:Torterra: Shell Smash
:Yanmega:

:Bruxish: Flip Turn
:Copperajah: Knock Off, Heat Crash
:Decidueye: Poltergeist
:Drifblim: Knock Off
:Dudunsparce-Three-Segment: Toxic
:Eelektross: Knock Off
:Floatzel: Flip Turn
:Froslass: Poltergeist
:Glastrier: High Horsepower
:Goodra: Knock Off, Scald, Toxic
:Heracross: Knock Off
:Houndstone: Poltergeist
:Lurantis: Knock Off, Superpower
:Mesprit: Knock Off
:Muk: Knock Off
:Qwilfish: Flip Turn
:Sandaconda: Scale Shot
:Scyther: Dual Wingbeat
:Toxicroak: Knock Off
:Tsareena: Knock Off
:Umbreon: Toxic
:Uxie: Knock Off
:sneasel: Knock Off
:cacturne: Knock Off
:skuntank: Knock Off
:spiritomb: Poltergeist, Lash Out, Toxic, Burning Jealousy
:komala: Knock Off
:falinks: Knock Off
:perrserker: Knock Off
 
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Rabia

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:sv/sneasel: SNEASEL IS BACK :sv/sneasel:

Sneasel figures to see the biggest buffs out of ANY Pokemon available to us. Knock Off returning to it takes the Pokemon from completely unusable status to metagame staple. This is not an exaggeration; Sneasel's actually got a usable Dark-type move now, and its toolkit remains unchanged from Generation 8 where it was a great option in earlier metagames too. I fully expect it to surge in usage now despite Hisuian Sneasel still being so good.
 
very excited for the dlc update, a lot of cool stuff here. ill mostly talk about the mons currently in nu briefly

:copperajah: - knock is gonna be insane on this thing, i was a little sad it didnt get power whip back but honestly heavy slam / knock / eq or superpower / sr will be a very good progress maker. i also think av and cb sets have potential as well but a lot of the time i find myself using sr on this just cause.

:decidueye: - idk if cb / sd sets will necessarily be used more now that it gets polt but definitely a strong addition. defog is just nice utility to have and sometimes thats more valuable

:eelektross: - knock is cool but i think this mon is p bad now anyway because of how fast paced the meta is.

:bruxish: :floatzel: - i like both of these mons a lot and flip turn is going to be a very nutty momentum machine considering how difficult it is to switch into these mons sometimes

:goodra: - idt id be running the other two new moves but knock is p fun, maybe on spikestack balances it'd be used?

:heracross: - lot better on pretty muchj every set now, obviously. i think there might be an uptick on knock spikes sets with boots, but i also think there are a many better options for spikes anyway so you might as well just use it to push really hard

:lurantis: - having options that arent tera blast make this thing so, so much better. not even sure if it will run knock, it definitely could on a 3a set. having an easier time with blissey is fun

:qwilfish: - this is one of my favorite mons to use in the tier rn as it has a really solid defensive profile being able to check fightings + with sandaconda being worse (i think sandaconda is cheeks now, even before dlc i thought it was kinda bleh), i think this is the premier mon to net rocky helmet chip; maybe thats an awkward niche but it was very prominent in the past obviously. flip turn giving it the ability to become a pivot does wonders for it, so very excited to use this thing more

:scyther: - normally id lament over it not getting knock back, but honestly with the amount of mons that can actually knock right now it really doesnt matter that much. sd trailblaze sets are still pretty good and wingbeat allows that to be pretty heavily bolstered

:tsareena: - this is the last knock mon maybe...but i was thinking that getting knock back would make this thing much better, we'll have to see if thats the case

:umbreon: - this is the only mon that gets toxic now basically, because using it on dudunsparce is a very big mistake. thats a good thing, because its biggest issue was it not being able to be a good progress maker, so umbreon imo has the potential to become a staple on balance teams, especially with tera poison / fairy being able to flip some bad matchups.

:sneasel: - ok NOW this is the last knock mon, despite having a great speed tier this things main issue is that it had jack shit for dark stab, but with knock coming back i feel as though it'll be a very potent progress maker. yeah the abundance of fighting types is bad for it, but they all become worse without their item. i feel like lowkey this mon could be broken, at least until we get some mons like weezing and poliwrath.

so yeah basically us having much more knock mons to play with is going to change things up, obviously. i hope the FE mons in the post above do drop, though i kind of doubt we get torterra, and even if we do i really doubt it stays because of shell smash, which is unfortunate because i think it'd have been a fantastic addition otherwise. yanmega and chandelure will also probably be a bit silly as well, but theres a lot of potential to be had once we get drops.
 

Corthius

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Bruxish @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Strong Jaw
Tera Type: Dark / Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Psychic Fangs
- Crunch / Ice Fang
- Flip Turn

Bruxish getting access to Flip Turn is probably my favorite change among all of them, even if it's small compared to others, like Knock Off Goodra/Copperajah. It makes Choice Scarf Bruxish so much better, and it was good before too! Its STABs hit insanely hard and have good neutral coverage, while it now has access to momentum, arguably one of the biggest things that a fast pivot can have going for it. Sure, it wishes it was U-turn, but we take what we get! STABs are self-explanatory on this set, while the coverage depends on what you want to hit. Tera Dark Crunch gives you another good complementary STAB to pick while cleaning, while Ice Fang hits still decently hard, and nails Cacturne, a pokemon that also got buffed and is immune to Bruxish's STABs.
Whether or not, I believe and am happy that Bruxish won't fall out of favore, despite massive tier changes and I hope this trend continues after the DLC1 quickdrops.
Flip Turn can also be ran on Choice Band sets, but I personally would probably rather use Aqua Jet last on those; it's still worth mentioning.
 

plznostep

Flittle Fanatic
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Sun in NU

One of my personal favourite playstyles to use in NU at the moment, Vulpix has gifted the tier with an automatic setter allowing Sun teams to be much more flexable in their teamslots and movesets. Here are my views on the various Sun abusers and Pokemon who fit well on the structure.

Abusers

:Charizard: - An absolute monster under Sun, Tera Fire makes this Pokemon incredibly strong, even being able to 2HKO Blissey with Flamethrower with Choice Specs. Choice Scarf is equally as effective, with it outspeeding the majority of Scarfers in the tier and hitting incredibly hard with it's Fire STAB under Sun. It also benefits a lot from Healing Wish on Vulpix and Hattrem on Sun as it is liable to be chipped down over time due to Solar Power. A must have on Sun Teams.

:leafeon: - Probably the second best Sun abuser, Leafeon was gifted some amazing tools this DLC with Solar Blade and Knock Off being wonderful new additions to its moveset. Solar Blade at +2 is an absolute monster, being able to OHKO the majority of the tier and Knock Off can really hurt Pokemon like Goodra who may want to switch into it's Grass moves.

:Scovillain: - Scovillain is probably one of the weaker Sun Abuser but however, it's typing is perfect for Sun teams and its power is amazing, being able to fire off strong Solar Beams and Sun boosted Fire moves at the same time with Life Orb sets. It's Dual Stab can be a bit easy to wall however, so Scovillain really benefits from Terastallization to hit Pokemon like Goodra hard.

:Arboliva: - I won't talk about this Pokemon for too long since I really don't know what I would do with it but Harvest seems really interesting and maybe you could do something with it on Sun, especially since Custap Berry is back as an item so I wanted to mention it here as an option; I hope some Arboliva fans innovate with this Pokemon!

:lilligant: - Probably the least common option, Liligant can really appreciate Sun giving it an absolutely wondeful speed tier which lets put more Pokemon to sleep easier without having to worry about being outsped by them while giving Liligant some valuable coverage in Weather Ball as well meaning you don't necessarily need to Terastallize Liligant to get some value out of it. But, it does feel like its the weakest Sun abuser at the moment.

For some sun abusers you should not use in my opinion:

:sawsbuck: - Leafeon really outclasses this now, Solar Blade + Knock Off with Leafeon's much better bulk and Attack makes it so much more threatening. All Sawsbuck has over Leafeon is better coverage for Pokemon like Goodra and Normal STAB which does not feel like enough to justify its usage

:sunflora: :tropius: :jumpluff: - Obvious but don't use these.


Some other Pokemon who fit really well on Sun are:

:hattrem: - Another Pokemon who you'll usually see on Sun to support Charizard, as if you aren't running Boots on Charizard, Stealth Rocks will absolutely ruin it and thus Magic Bounce support is required to make the best use of the Pokemon.

:Goodra: - Goodra is a generally good glue Pokemon, offering insurance against opposing Sun teams and generally being a solid wallbreaker and special sponge as well. Knock Off was a wonderful buff that allows Goodra to remove items like Heavy-Duty Boots from Blissey which can in turn help Charizard and Scovillain in their attempts to break down teams.

:Piloswine: - Piloswine feels like a pretty nice choice as well for similar reasons as Goodra, as Tera Dragon + Thick Fat is a Sun teams worse nightmare while giving Sun a nice matchup into Pokemon like Jolteon and giving Sun rocks as well if it wants it. The priority Ice Shard can also be nice for opposing Leafeon which Piloswine should do a lot to.​
 
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Sun in NU

One of my personal favourite playstyles to use in NU at the moment, Vulpix has gifted the tier with an automatic setter allowing Sun teams to be much more flexable in their teamslots and movesets. Here are my views on the various Sun abusers and Pokemon who fit well on the structure.

Abusers

:Charizard: - An absolute monster under Sun, Tera Fire makes this Pokemon incredibly strong, even being able to 2HKO Blissey with Flamethrower with Choice Specs. Choice Scarf is equally as effective, with it outspeeding the majority of Scarfers in the tier and hitting incredibly hard with it's Fire STAB under Sun. It also benefits a lot from Healing Wish on Vulpix and Hattrem on Sun as it is liable to be chipped down over time due to Solar Power. A must have on Sun Teams.

:leafeon: - Probably the second best Sun abuser, Leafeon was gifted some amazing tools this DLC with Solar Blade and Knock Off being wonderful new additions to its moveset. Solar Blade at +2 is an absolute monster, being able to OHKO the majority of the tier and Knock Off can really hurt Pokemon like Goodra who may want to switch into it's Grass moves.

:Scovillain: - Scovillain is probably the weakest Sun Abuser but however, it's typing is perfect for Sun teams and its power is amazing, being able to fire off strong Solar Beams and Sun boosted Fire moves at the same time with Life Orb sets. It's Dual Stab can be a bit easy to wall however, so Scovillain really benefits from Terastallization to hit Pokemon like Goodra hard.

:Arboliva: - I won't talk about this Pokemon for too long since I really don't know what I would do with it but Harvest seems really interesting and maybe you could do something with it on Sun, especially since Custap Berry is back as an item so I wanted to mention it here as an option; I hope some Arboliva fans innovate with this Pokemon!

:lilligant: - Probably the least common option, Liligant can really appreciate Sun giving it an absolutely wondeful speed tier which lets put more Pokemon to sleep easier without having to worry about being outsped by them while giving Liligant some valuable coverage in Weather Ball as well meaning you don't necessarily need to Terastallize Liligant to get some value out of it. But, it does feel like its the weakest Sun abuser at the moment.

For some sun abusers you should not use in my opinion:

:sawsbuck: - Leafeon really outclasses this now, Solar Blade + Knock Off with Leafeon's much better bulk and Attack makes it so much more threatening. All Sawsbuck has over Leafeon is better coverage for Pokemon like Goodra and Normal STAB which does not feel like enough to justify its usage

:sunflora: :tropius: :jumpluff: - Obvious but don't use these.


Some other Pokemon who fit really well on Sun are:

:hattrem: - Another Pokemon who you'll usually see on Sun to support Charizard, as if you aren't running Boots on Charizard, Stealth Rocks will absolutely ruin it and thus Magic Bounce support is required to make the best use of the Pokemon.

:Goodra: - Goodra is a generally good glue Pokemon, offering insurance against opposing Sun teams and generally being a solid wallbreaker and special sponge as well. Knock Off was a wonderful buff that allows Goodra to remove items like Heavy-Duty Boots from Blissey which can in turn help Charizard and Scovillain in their attempts to break down teams.

:Piloswine: - Piloswine feels like a pretty nice choice as well for similar reasons as Goodra, as Tera Dragon + Thick Fat is a Sun teams worse nightmare while giving Sun a nice matchup into Pokemon like Jolteon and giving Sun rocks as well if it wants it. The priority Ice Shard can also be nice for opposing Leafeon which Piloswine should do a lot to.​
I've been using sun a good bit myself and think its a very scary HO style. There's a few mons you hate to see, like Goodra, Appletun, Coalossal, Blissey and maybe Tera Dragon Copper, but the style isn't dead in the water against these as you can try to muscle through them.

I do want to highlight two additional sun abusers that seem very good to me that Quziel pointed out.

:SV/Typhlosion:
Everytime I've used Sun (even last gen), I've always thought to myself, "I wish I had a second Charizard." Well look no further, this things full power Eruption is just slightly weaker than Charizard's Fire Blast! You can muscle through your opponents answer with one, and then clean up with the other!

:SV/Tauros-Paldea-Blaze:
I haven't personally tried this but the extra damage boost from sun means this thing picks up alot of kills it was missing out on before. It's not weak to rocks which is a big plus as well. It also provides unique utility since it doesn't require Tera to beat the previously mentioned and can emergency intimidate an opposing sweeper.

Here's the team I've been laddering with: https://pokepast.es/16bb6c5ba40b7661
You can easily change either zard or typhlosion to specs or slot Tauros over one of the other sweepers. The sweeping slots are pretty malleable, you could even drop one potentially for something that adds more of defensive presence or stealth rocks. I had a version at one point with Lead Stealth Rock Taunt Primeape.
 

Danny

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
ZU Circuit Champion
Built 5 teams used 20 these are some of my takes GO:

:sv/heracross:

This guy is almost broken and almost unviable at the same time. Allow me to explain. He has a rlly cool moveset. Knock and Spikes are super cute. Scarf sets are rly strong and cool. I like how it gets the jump on Passimian with scarf. The . It has access to Flame Orb to make it strong. The BU Stalk set is also broken if u face a bad player like myself. Now to the negatives. The meta trends have upgraded scarfer speed tiers. Bruxish/Rotom(both forms)/Basculin/Indeedee/Missy all outsleed it and most can OHKO the others just need a bit of chip. It is very frail unfortunately. It tends to miss out on a ton of kos. proof: trust me bro. Forb, the set that is supposed to explode shit kills itself throughout the game and the tendency of teams to have at least 1 or 2 helmet mons do not help it out.
Its best set has to be boots 3a w spikes. Seems decent enough imo. Scarf is still cute tho just like a kinda disappointing mon half the time. I do like how it nets KOs that Pass doesnt sometimes however but Pass outclasses it w u turn.

:sv/goodra:

Imo this guy is legit S tier. It has 5 different viable sets and its ability to just win matchups with either of em is just phenomenal. Specs stays killing shit. Offensive Boots is cool asw and u can slot moves depending on ur match up vs certain shit. Wanna be degen, Scald fish. Want to remove vital Lefties for a diff spA slot Knock in ur last slot. Want to put insane pressure? Acid Spray them. Need a good SpD switch on ur BO? AV w either of those moves. Boots, Lefties, AV, Specs, the options are endless imo. My favorite sets rn are the goolord sets. Knock/Dragon Tail/Protect/Toxic s/o zS for that bc before that I was running Resttalk with Knock Dragon Tail which imo is still good but not as crazy as protox. Rlly insane guy.

:sv/qwilfish:

I love him. The ability to both pivot and set spikes is just so awesome. It has a lot of tools for a rlly nice physical pivot on both BO and bulkier balances. Not much to say ab this besides switch ur old set and put Flip>other water move. There is a bit of variability between Poison Point and Intimidate. Rlly depends how weak ur team is to Passimian. If u dont have another soft check to it I would go Poison Point. PP is rlly nice anyways to force a Poison on shit that wants to hit u like scyther and Sneasel. I am a rlly big proponent of SD Qwilfish rn( I always have been). Its ability to just Set up and kill shit is rlly cool rn its STABS are unwallable. It got Scale Shot back so thats rlly good to let u sweep with Tera Dragon asw. Big ups on that set ppl need to explore it more imo.

:sv/toxicroak:

NP is rlly good. SD is rlly good. U kinda shit on some meta trends with NP a bit more but both sets are rlly good. I've experimented with pandafrog and if you kinda get what that means just run Knock>Gunk and Tera Dark and now ur a PandaFrog. NP struggles a bit bc it has 4MSS as it wants Focus/SLudge/Vacuum/Dark Pulse but its cool just team dependent on how weak u are to some shit.

I'll talk ab some more shit in a different post pce.
 
Cool to see Abomasnow even without its mega still be NU hopefully it will stay like that throughout the generation, I assume the hail or well snow buff was a massive thing for it. Always loved abosmasnow for some reason so it's good to see it perform!
 

PowerOfMemes

SS NU, best NU
is a Pre-Contributor
Cool to see Abomasnow even without its mega still be NU hopefully it will stay like that throughout the generation, I assume the hail or well snow buff was a massive thing for it. Always loved abosmasnow for some reason so it's good to see it perform!
I share your sentiment, but, from what I’ve seen, unfortunately I feel that Abomasnow might fall off and drop to PU. Ice used to be rare, dangerous, and hard to deal with Choice Specs Glaceon being a threat to every team, but each recent shift has worsened the Ice-typing with additions like Cryogonal, Avalugg (for phys sets), Cuno just being fat, the Fighting-types dominating this tier, the new bunch of Fire-types too, the main Pokemon it took advantage of, Sandaconda, falling off, and everything getting Knock Off all send a bad omen to it. Also, the competition is annoying with other Ice-types like Sneasel, Froslass, Articuno, and Piloswine becoming better.

However, I still believe there is hope or atleast a niche. On both offensive sides, nothing can take its STABs + coverage in Ground-type attacks, bar Orthworm which you can use Focus Blast/Low Kick for if you care enough. Special sets are still good breakers and since Fighting-types are what they are opposing Ice-types are fairly rare and destroyed by your Fighting-type. SD also seems quite good in this meta (this might be migo meta that’s making me say this so take it with a grain of salt). Ice Shard beats plenty of common threats and Seed Bomb/Wood Hammer nukes Water-types that eat Ice Shard. Then, Earthquake smacks stuff Coalossal, Jolteon, Magneton, and incoming Fire-types or Low Kick smacks specifically Orthworm harder. It is also feels very forced having to run Tera Fire because, if you don’t, everything burns you, and the Fire-types beat you. And, with both sets, atleast some level of prediction is necessary to make progress fast. I have been able to find success with Abomasnow thankfully, though. Here are some teams for a fellow Snowman Fan:
Pass Aboma over (SD Abomasnow)
AbomaYama (Special Breaker)
edit: bottom team, fixed goodras hp-used to be 232 investment
 
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I could write a post saying that Flip Turn Bruxish is amazing, Poltergeist Decidueye is very strong and CM Dudunsparce is still very threatening, but this wouldn't add anything new to what everybody already knows.
Instead, I'd like to spend some words on what I consider a sleeper pick in my opinion: Spiritomb :spiritomb:.
:sv/spiritomb:
Spiritomb @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Pain Split/Protect/Burning Jealousy
This mon has recently received Toxic and a number of other offensive additions like Poltergeist and Burning Jealousy.
The reasons that make me think that there's a valid niche for this mon are:
1) with Infiltrator you can badly poison the set-up mons that use Substitute, putting a timer on Grimmsnarl, G-Articuno, Dudunsparce, Fire Pauros...;
2) thanks to its good typing, it pairs very well with sp.def Coalossal :coalossal: (improving everything by adding a grass type), as you can switch into the fighting type moves without being weak to dark moves;
3) you're immune to Psyshock, so in the Calm Mind vs Calm Mind match-up the opponent cannot hit you from the physical defense side, while you can possibly toxic the opponent's mon in the meantime.

Regarding the defensive set, tera-steel is good to avoid Toxic and resist fairy, but tera-poison could be valid too, as you're still immune to poison (while your Toxic cannot fail) and you're not even afraid of DPunch Grimm.

Pain Split could be a choice for some situational recovery, Protect for an additional turn of lefties and to scout for opponent's moves, Burning Jealousy could be a fun pick for the the Tera-Steel Grimm or Pauros that use Bulk Up.

I'm not saying that it will be a staple, but I thought I should recognize a possible "C rank" status.
 

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP & NU Leader
been bored and teambuilding a ton so I'm gonna dump some squads, a lot aren't tested but idgaf

https://pokepast.es/0bec27b7b0740646
:copperajah::qwilfish::goodra::grimmsnarl::tsareena::rotom:

some standard balance. pivot grimm is still goated with the sauce and has the same synergy with scarf rotom it did a couple months back. specs goodra is really cool especially with this grimm, though, because mons like qwil, conda, and orth are pretty free. helps too that specs draco meteor has very few switch-ins; blissey is just a momentum sink anyway so who cares if it comes in. qwil + rajah + tsar is the standard hazard core in this meta and covers a lot of stuff well.

https://pokepast.es/beb94a728614f942
:bruxish::rotom-mow::salazzle::copperajah::grimmsnarl::drifblim:

formulaic team. np mow is a cool set, with tera poison covering basically anything that would normally rkill you other than opposing scarf brux. it can probably be tera fairy with tera blast on this team asw. more pivot grimm, this time with lazzle as the primary beneficiary. together these two are quite good at screwing with setup mons. drifblim is poverty but has a weirdly good place in this meta.

https://pokepast.es/26c2703ef37a76ed
:heracross::grimmsnarl::sandaconda::tsareena::copperajah::rotom:

mostly just wanted to try out a couple sets, namely boots hera and 3 atks + tect rajah. i think the movepool changes for rajah really give it a LOT more versatility than people estimate. the only qualm is figuring out who you want for stealth rock because stealth rock conda feels... not amazing atm? just a lot of pokemon that can match up vs it quite well. blissey is probably the better partner but then i'd have to overhaul the team and... yea that is NOT happening.

https://pokepast.es/f7e973f4f4f8c20c
:sneasel::qwilfish::copperajah::tsareena::mismagius::goodra:

danny built something similar which is not surprising because this sort of build felt very intuitive. sneasel has knock off again. this makes sneasel very good. fill in the team with lots of standard pokemon. this is easy.

https://pokepast.es/c5e01214fe307725
:vulpix::hattrem::charizard::leafeon::goodra::sandaconda:

ignore the last slot. that was just a STREAM SPECIAL as i'll call it. auto sun is very viable, though. the pivot options are pretty lacking, but i think ebutton hatt + epack goodra work well. zard got weather ball back = big buff. leafeon got solar blade and knock off back = big buff. the last slot honestly can be anything that sweeps but scale shot sanda sounded funny with loaded dice. fight me on it.

https://pokepast.es/ad078564d0c99363
:floatzel::gligar::copperajah::grimmsnarl::rotom-mow::tauros-paldea-blaze:

cb floatzel is rly good now with flip turn. maybe it's still outclassed by bruxish but the natural speed is really huge, and i think it's cool getting to run triple water stab and never feeling like you miss out on something because well... your coverage sucks anyway :D this sort of offense imo makes gligar functional. still trying to figure out the moveset and evs, maybe acrobatics would be good on here because the team isnt great into opposing fighters (hence tera ghost on rajah, could be tera poison instead). tauros also could be a different tera (grass) but ive just been defaulting to tera fight because im lazy.

--

meta is fun rn, i'll be building a ton more because i've got free time to. play nu if you don't already. gl in scl those that got drafted bop.
 

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP & NU Leader
:sv/jolteon:

The NU council plans to conduct a vote on Jolteon this weekend, barring substantial pushback from the community. We'd like to hear from you all before we proceed, as Jolteon hasn't seen a TON of discussion recently; the most was a few people that were worried about the original unbanning.
 

Kiyo

the cowboy kid
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
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I don't think Jolteon should be banned. My current thoughts on teambuilding trends are that people are too reliant on using volt switch to chip their opponents fast threats and using passive walls. I think this teambuilding trend was part of the reason so much of the playerbase struggled to revenge kill Meloetta and Delphox before their bans. Jolteon is unique in that it has some very good matchups where it can chip opposing walls in the early game and reliably calm mind up in the late game due to its killer speed. It also fails to get chipped by opposing Jolteon. Electrode, and Rotom-Mow Volt Switch, which makes it difficult for teams that rely on this (otherwise reliable method of) chip for their more passive playstyles to make damage stick. Which brings me to my next point.

Physical Choice Scarf Pokemon are currently underused on balance archetypes and they are extremely effective at taking care of some of the tiers fast special attackers such as Jolteon and Salazzle. Anything with 71 base speed and a boosting nature holding a Choice Scarf will outpace Jolteon. A good chunk of the Pokemon with the Speed to outpace Jolteon also have the power to OHKO it from full. Some scarfers I have used in the past week or so that fit this description include: Bruxish, Tauros-Blaze, Heracross, Bombirdier, and Passimian. Most of these pokemon also have access to U-turn or Flip Turn which allows them to perform a similar role in chipping fast Pokemon or forcing them out and into walls like Volt Switchers do.

I think too many players stick special walls onto their teams such as Blissey and Qwilfish-H and say "that oughta hold" vs Salazzle, Jolteon and friends with no real game plan as to how they damage them. Blissey kills things slowly with stoss and neither like getting their items knocked by Salazzle with how easy hazards are to stack and maintain in this metagame. Qwilfish-H rarely carries a move to hit Salazzle super effectively and it still takes like 30 from flamethrower on the switch so you can only switch in once if you plan to stay in and attack or greed a spike. The key to using these Pokemon against threats like Salazzle and Jolteon is to limit the options the opponent feels comfortable clicking. I think you can reasonably assume your opponent will not sludge bomb a qwilfish-h with salazzle when options such as knock off, flamethrower, substitute and switching are on the table. These pokemon are best used as a pivot to another strong attacker (usually holding Choice Band or Choice Specs) that allow you to bust through the opposing teams defenses. By narrowing the options for what your opponent can click you can more reliably pivot to your offensive pokemon that can hit hard but may need help to come in safely.

I talked about this before the first big wave of bans, but one thing that I find extremely difficult about tiering in early metagames is that to effectively build offense and balance you need direction with your scarfers. That is you need to know which of the tiers fast attackers are most common so you can plan to have reliable ohkos against them or plans to chip them into range of priority/other fast attacks. I cannot stress this enough: this takes time to develop. I think before the metagame shifted to using Physical Scarfers to hit the much weaker Physical Defense stats of Meloetta and Delphox (77 and 72 respectively) we simply banned them. Teams with 3 walls and a volt switcher struggled to break them because Meloetta boasted a monstrous spdef stat of 128 and Delphox had base 100. It was simply a bad plan to try and chip these pokemon with Volt Switch from the get go, but players didn't have to adapt because we just banned them.

I don't think any of this makes pokemon like Salazzle or Jolteon overly restrictive. You can still build and play against these pokemon using volt switch chip or passive pokemon with hazards and good positioning to beat them. It's just an uphill climb. One of the tenets of our tiering philosophy is that you are going to have bad matchups. You cannot win them all and sometimes your team is going to suck because somebody brought a pokemon you didn't commonly face, or failed to consider as a threat, or you could be getting left in the dust for failing to catch up with the times and build a radically different style of team.
 
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