my original thought on this was "whoohoo, a physical attacker that my opponent cannot religously hard to sandaconda on, they might actually have to think" but yeah there simply are not enough walls that avoid a 2hko (i think its just the 2 in blim and hound) and the typical fighting counterplay isn't there due to scrappy (the intim immunity is what pushes it over the edge for me) we have some solid 4x resists to the stabs that can potentially punish, but theres simply no downside to using flamigo and it nabs ohkos far too comfortably. i generally prefer metagames with nukes like this that punish defense teams. also burning ur tera to take down a pokemon that ur opponent is fine with trading for damage anyways feels bad so i dont rate that counterplay as highly as i do for other mons.
i think a lot of the "tera lets it get past counters" argument is kinda weak, but my best counterargument is that you can use it too lol (see: hariyama) np taking a turn to make this thing into an ohko machine is really important and some of the arguments in this thread seem to assume that fox gets +2 automatically. also noteable that you can check this with scarfers most of the time (i saw flame charge once, but idk u've gotta kinda let it win to give a flame charge and np turn..) I'll admit tera can make the checking with scarfers idea a little harder, but without running any calcs im pretty sure this thing is frail enough to drop to neutral attacks from most physical scarfers and with chip can be dropped by special ones too (esp if they unfavorably tera into ur scarf mon) also ur scarfer can tera too. i just think this is a lot more dynamic than the arguments in the thread present, and the counterplay is necessarily more dynamic as well.
gotta admit the psyshock calcs do way more than i'd like, i've only run specs myself so i can't comment a ton on the other sets. definitely easier to check and halt progress than the other strong clicker flamigo. i'd prefer to keep this in the tier and see how things progress, its speed tier is in a weird spot and theres a good chunk of strong physical attackers faster than it that can hit it for good neutral damage. choice sets also take hazard damage that sticks and can put u into revenge ko range if you pick the wrong move early. this mon feels borderline and is arguably over the line if you prefer a defensive playstyle, but i think its straightforward enough to play against (at least while specs is the most threatening set) and can be forced out by most of the common offense mons so its not like you don't get the opportunity to punch back. i'd also throw the u can tera too argument in here against those that think tera pushes it over the line.
bd sets are overrated imo, it misses out on a lot of ohkos even with tera steel bp and there are a fair number of faster pokemon that resist bp and can ohko in return, i.e. tauros-fire, delphox, salazzle, floatzel, (and anything faster that you want to tera to resist bp). assault vest is a solid tank and w/ tera you can check most special attackers with relative ease. theres a fair few drain punch targets in the tier, and i've found it comfortable to keep hariyama at high hp unless im trading it for one of the strong spattackers in the tier.
+2 252 SpA Delphox Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Tera Steel Hariyama: 236-282 (55 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Delphox Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Steel Hariyama: 180-212 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Tera Steel Hariyama Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Delphox: 180-212 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (unsure if fairy is most popular but i saw it mentioned once or twice in discussion)
252+ Atk Tera Steel Hariyama Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 288-340 (98.9 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Steel Hariyama Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 356-420 (122.3 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
i think yama does similar things into meloetta but its definitely able to punish you easier and also doesnt have to burn a turn boosting to be a threat the way fox does.
i don't rate the bulk up set very high and i've never been in a situation where i've hit it with uturns or something and its rage fist spirals out of control (even if it could stack high enough to do so its slow enough to be checked comfortably by non scarfers on offense, altho depending on boosts it might take more than one to get thru it i suppose)
i think this is probably fine, but would like more time to see how things progress. i generally don't mind offensive threats when they have 68/60/60 bulk as theyre pretty easy to check, but defense players must have nightmares about encore and sub toxic.
i think this is probably unhealthy, when it works its incredibly potent and feels demoralizing to play against since it arguably becomes a guessing game (sometimes u can sniff it out, but it definitely doesnt make my spidey sense tingle all the time). i think the points about it being a good mon w/o illusion really hit the nail on the head, and the mindgames make it awkward to develop gameplans into.
i think a lot of the "tera lets it get past counters" argument is kinda weak, but my best counterargument is that you can use it too lol (see: hariyama) np taking a turn to make this thing into an ohko machine is really important and some of the arguments in this thread seem to assume that fox gets +2 automatically. also noteable that you can check this with scarfers most of the time (i saw flame charge once, but idk u've gotta kinda let it win to give a flame charge and np turn..) I'll admit tera can make the checking with scarfers idea a little harder, but without running any calcs im pretty sure this thing is frail enough to drop to neutral attacks from most physical scarfers and with chip can be dropped by special ones too (esp if they unfavorably tera into ur scarf mon) also ur scarfer can tera too. i just think this is a lot more dynamic than the arguments in the thread present, and the counterplay is necessarily more dynamic as well.
gotta admit the psyshock calcs do way more than i'd like, i've only run specs myself so i can't comment a ton on the other sets. definitely easier to check and halt progress than the other strong clicker flamigo. i'd prefer to keep this in the tier and see how things progress, its speed tier is in a weird spot and theres a good chunk of strong physical attackers faster than it that can hit it for good neutral damage. choice sets also take hazard damage that sticks and can put u into revenge ko range if you pick the wrong move early. this mon feels borderline and is arguably over the line if you prefer a defensive playstyle, but i think its straightforward enough to play against (at least while specs is the most threatening set) and can be forced out by most of the common offense mons so its not like you don't get the opportunity to punch back. i'd also throw the u can tera too argument in here against those that think tera pushes it over the line.
bd sets are overrated imo, it misses out on a lot of ohkos even with tera steel bp and there are a fair number of faster pokemon that resist bp and can ohko in return, i.e. tauros-fire, delphox, salazzle, floatzel, (and anything faster that you want to tera to resist bp). assault vest is a solid tank and w/ tera you can check most special attackers with relative ease. theres a fair few drain punch targets in the tier, and i've found it comfortable to keep hariyama at high hp unless im trading it for one of the strong spattackers in the tier.
+2 252 SpA Delphox Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Tera Steel Hariyama: 236-282 (55 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Delphox Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Steel Hariyama: 180-212 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Tera Steel Hariyama Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Delphox: 180-212 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (unsure if fairy is most popular but i saw it mentioned once or twice in discussion)
252+ Atk Tera Steel Hariyama Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 288-340 (98.9 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Steel Hariyama Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 356-420 (122.3 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
i think yama does similar things into meloetta but its definitely able to punish you easier and also doesnt have to burn a turn boosting to be a threat the way fox does.
i don't rate the bulk up set very high and i've never been in a situation where i've hit it with uturns or something and its rage fist spirals out of control (even if it could stack high enough to do so its slow enough to be checked comfortably by non scarfers on offense, altho depending on boosts it might take more than one to get thru it i suppose)
i think this is probably fine, but would like more time to see how things progress. i generally don't mind offensive threats when they have 68/60/60 bulk as theyre pretty easy to check, but defense players must have nightmares about encore and sub toxic.
i think this is probably unhealthy, when it works its incredibly potent and feels demoralizing to play against since it arguably becomes a guessing game (sometimes u can sniff it out, but it definitely doesnt make my spidey sense tingle all the time). i think the points about it being a good mon w/o illusion really hit the nail on the head, and the mindgames make it awkward to develop gameplans into.