Metagame np: Stage 6 - The Boys Are Back

[Disjunction]

I kind of just assumed someone had already suggested Magneton for suspect? Agree completely with Finchinator on all of his points. Magneton has an extremely polarizing effect on the metagame, almost forcing balance and stall to run Lanturn, Stunfisk, or Torterra on every team for a reliable switch in, while forcing offense to have a tool on every member to hit Magnets with. It's a suffocating, omnipresent threat in team builder that feels like it will never be answered 100% of the time.

Hell, even when you're preparing for the Specs version, you can still get destroyed by other variants. Balance and stall can prepare for it with bulky Ground-types and "intelligent switching", but what does that even mean once you're faced with an Eviolite Magnet Rise Magneton? Offense can deal with it by always having pressure on the slow Specs set, but it will become a huge threat when it turns out to be Choice Scarf. It has a set to punch holes in every team archetype which sets itself apart from other powerful wall breakers in the tier.

All of this aside, it wouldn't be nearly as close to a problem as it is now if it didn't have Volt Switch. The ability to force that much damage on your opponent while being able to switch out into the best match up possible for you is insane. It was one of the things that set Heliolisk over the edge and I think the same goes for Magneton. Specially defensive Electric- and Grass-type walls, such as Rotom and Gourgeist, would be able to help, but the momentum Volt Switch provides is another very big positive going for Magneton. There will never be a dedicated counter to it because there is not a single Pokemon in the tier that can last through out the duration of a match that blocks Volt Switch, can switch into Magneton's coverage, and will be able to shrug off the damage it takes switching in (unless you count resttalk Lanturn which Finch already addressed.)

It's suspecting season and I think Magneton is an obvious choice for us to put up for suspect.

 

[mertyville]

Actually I am wondering why anyone would bother using Sturdy Magneton. With SR around, you are being forced to keep making the field free if you are really going to abuse his ability. It is way to situational to consider it while it has 2 other great abilities that actually see more effectiveness and are more custimizable with most of its sets be it sweeper, offensive supporter, revenge killer or just a wallbreaker.

 

[Ares]

Hello custap + sturdy is amazing.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-234724810

 

[Moxie Lord]

My views on the moves to NU shall be below

Fletchinder:This beast is gonna be a huge gladiator in the NU tier especially due to its Acrobatics no item set which can contend with some really good mons in the tier mainly physical mons due to them not liking being burned and also fighting types like Sawk and Hariyama and grass types like Lilligant. Now the problems about Fletchinder are mainly rock types such as Kabutops mainly due to water type advantage over Fletchinder.

Pinsir:Eh Pinsir is decent its gonna add a few things to the tier but thats about it so i havent really got much to say about this one.

Magneton:Now this thing is gonna deal with the flying types of the tier such as Mantine, Xatu, Scyther and Vivillon. But also at the same time its gonna trap the steel types of the tier such as other Magnetons, Ferroseeds, Mawiles and Klinklangs.

Kabutops:This thing is a hard hitter and mainly deals with Fletchinder except from when its burned but the Lum Berry set can deal with the burn and easily eliminate Fletchinder. Magmortar has some problems with this mon but has Thunderbolt to deal with this beast.

 

[Kiyo]

Actually I am wondering why anyone would bother using Sturdy Magneton. With SR around, you are being forced to keep making the field free if you are really going to abuse his ability. It is way to situational to consider it while it has 2 other great abilities that actually see more effectiveness and are more custimizable with most of its sets be it sweeper, offensive supporter, revenge killer or just a wallbreaker.

they said this about sawk too, right Omfuga?

 

[Steakburgers]

I've been looking at metang lately, and I took a look at its moves and whatnot, cause it was late, and I was in the mood to try something new for mag
Earthquake kills mag, obviously, mag hates anything that looks like the ground but it also has grass knot. ground/water water/electric pretty much everything of that nature is pretty common right now, and it 2hko's quagsire
I was just looking to possibly to get some discussion up for metang, cause it did great before as the lone computer fusion thing in the face of dragalge, so now maybe it can save us from magneton

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Well this article basically sums up Metang well enough: http://www.smogon.com/dex/bw/pokemon/metang/

But really. It's a miracle that it's still ranked since it even got worse after BW with Knock Off and everything. Now that is a mon that should probably drop.

 

[Karane]

Well this article basically sums up Metang well enough: http://www.smogon.com/dex/bw/pokemon/metang/

But really. It's a miracle that it's still ranked since it even got worse after BW with Knock Off and everything. Now that is a mon that should probably drop.

Although viability rankings mean shit to me, I don't agree how you and other people think it should go unranked. The knock off buff did hurt its overall capability, it still holds a great niche in checking flying types, pschic types, normal types enjoys many other factors of being a steel type. Its stealth rocking ability is great because of its typing I can afford to use like Dual Dance Rhydon rather than other rocker like Carracosta which clashes a lot of weaknesses. At the current state of the meta, it checks 3 S rank mons (Tauros, Mesprit, Archeops), Sneasel doesn't appreciate Bullet Punch and Magneton can get by Earthquake if it tries to trap it. Other solidly used mons like Jynx, Kangaskhan, Klingklang and Mega Audino among others get checked by this beast. So its fine where it is buddy.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I'd much rather use defensive Mawile, who checks mostly the same threats and then some without being so weak to the omnipresent Knock Off (and it can actually use Knock Off itself). Metang loses to almost every other SR user like Torterra, Rhydon and Carracosta, Mawile can at least cripple them with Toxic. And it can avoid being trapped by Magneton with Baton Pass as well. Although this isn't the place to discuss rankings, just pointing out that there's very little reason to actually use Metang atm.

 

[Finchinator]

I'd much rather use defensive Mawile, who checks mostly the same threats and then some without being so weak to the omnipresent Knock Off (and it can actually use Knock Off itself). Metang loses to almost every other SR user like Torterra, Rhydon and Carracosta, Mawile can at least cripple them with Toxic. And it can avoid being trapped by Magneton with Baton Pass as well. Although this isn't the place to discuss rankings, just pointing out that there's very little reason to actually use Metang atm.

Metang can actually tank special attacks decently well, has better bulk on both sides with eviolite (intimidate can help vs 1 thing for Mawile on the physical side, but otherwise not so much), can run Toxic like Mawile (I don't know why you use this as a point when both have access to it!), and can run EQ to hit Magneton if need be. I can see why people would use Mawile over Metang due to things like Sneasel being quite common, but your logic isn't why people would use Mawile over Metang and you're disregarding a lot of Metang's merits. I'm not saying that Metang is a great pokemon, as it isn't, but at least give it fair credit.

 

[testsubordinate]

Does anyone else think Fletchinder is a little... dumb? I've never seen a Pokemon in NU be so capable of outright stealing games from people for literally no reason. It literally just throws up a Swords Dance and boom, that's a wrap. I don't think easy winning like that is healthy for NU (or really any format, but this is where I am right now).

 

[Teddeh]

If you think fletch is broken, then perhaps you should make an investment called a flying resist into your team.

 

[Kiyo]

damn i agree with teddeh for once. nah real talk tho, fletch is no where near broken.

if you're having trouble with it you probably have iplaytennislolitis, a condition where you consistently sack your only answer to a threat on the opposing team or continually leave win conditions in to die.

 

[testsubordinate]

So if you absolutely have to run a Flying resist on every team, lest you be swept by Fletchinder, then doesn't that kind of make a statement on Fletchinder's position in the meta? I also feel like it's worth mentioning that I didn't actually call it broken.

 

[Ares]

Its a threat that you have to prepare for in the meta. Its just something you should do if you make a good team. A lot of things in the A / S ranks can sweep you if you dont carry something for it.

If anything, in this meta it should be ridiculously easy to prepare for fletch in this Magneton meta. Not only does Magneton beat fletch besides the rare overheat set, the majority of Magenton stops beat fletch like Lanturn and Stunfisk.

If you need more stops to fletch PM user: iplaytennislol on PS for more info!

 

[boltsandbombers]

And to be fair, it's not hard at all to fit checks to Fletchinder on a team, as Electric / Rock / Steel types are all relatively common and easy to put on a team and they all serve purposes apart from checking Fletchinder (and other Flying types for that matter). Off the top of my head, there's Magneton, Rhydon, Lanturn, Probopass, Aurorus, Stunfisk, and tons of others.

It's really good for sure, but certainly not broken - like Mont said, just another important threat to prepare for. Can't say teambuilding is easy with all of these threats you need to be prepare for, but it is what it is.

 

[Evan.]

So if you absolutely have to run a Flying resist on every team, lest you be swept by Fletchinder, then doesn't that kind of make a statement on Fletchinder's position in the meta? I also feel like it's worth mentioning that I didn't actually call it broken.

This is really flawed logic as many have already pointed out, but also if you dont carry a flying resist, i'd be more concerned about something like Archeops running through your team because it has immediate power and coverage moves that hit most flying resists pretty hard as well.

 

[Finchinator]

So if you absolutely have to run a Flying resist on every team, lest you be swept by Fletchinder, then doesn't that kind of make a statement on Fletchinder's position in the meta? I also feel like it's worth mentioning that I didn't actually call it broken.

If you don't run a fighting resist, Sawk is going to give you problems.
If you don't run a water resist, Samurott is going to give you problems.
If you don't run a flying resist, Fletch is going to give you problems.
Etc.

How does this make it more problematic than other things? It's just trading off being quite powerful like the above threats for having priority, I suppose. Fletch is fine as it is.

 

[testsubordinate]

Sincere thanks to everybody for each and every serious/non-sassy response to this topic. Although I want to make it clear that I am no longer trying to push my original point that Fletchinder is unsavory in NU, I do still want to address one last thing:

If you don't run a fighting resist, Sawk is going to give you problems.
If you don't run a water resist, Samurott is going to give you problems.
If you don't run a flying resist, Fletch is going to give you problems.
Etc.

How does this make it more problematic than other things? It's just trading off being quite powerful like the above threats for having priority, I suppose. Fletch is fine as it is.

The difference I was trying to spell out with Fletchinder is that it's the only viable Pokemon I can think of in the tier that has a priority STAB move with 110 base power. And this unique trait is also coupled with access to Swords Dance and Roost. I won't re-analyze the entire bird here since you guys all know what it does, but this is what I was trying to say in articulating why this thing is unique.

While Sawk and Samurott are also strong, I think this particular combination of traits is what makes Fletchinder so uniquely inescapable to me, and is what led me to originally ask if I was alone in thinking that it's really not the best fit here. But again, now that I know all of you don't feel the same way, I want to make it clear that I am not trying to convince anybody anymore. Thanks again.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

If you don't run a fighting resist, Sawk is going to give you problems.
If you don't run a water resist, Samurott is going to give you problems.
If you don't run a flying resist, Fletch is going to give you problems.
Etc.

How does this make it more problematic than other things? It's just trading off being quite powerful like the above threats for having priority, I suppose. Fletch is fine as it is.

Sawk and Samurott can be revenge killed by anything faster or priority, Fletchinder can't. That's what puts Fletchinder in a whole different league as your only way out against a +2 Acrobatics is a defensive resource like a Flying resist or a physical wall.

Normally this would be a convincing enough argument for a ban but it's like Talonflame in OU. It forces every team to carry a solid answer or die, but the thing is there's plenty of those answers to choose from to put on a team. Yes it's overcentralizing and it makes every team look similar, but that's just how it is. Fletchinder doesn't break the meta because everybody carries a resist. It's not like Typhlosion where you had very limited options or were forced to go out of your way and use a subpar mon to counter it.

 

[Teddeh]

Sawk and Samurott can be revenge killed by anything faster or priority, Fletchinder can't. That's what puts Fletchinder in a whole different league as your only way out against a +2 Acrobatics is a defensive resource like a Flying resist or a physical wall.

Normally this would be a convincing enough argument for a ban but it's like Talonflame in OU. It forces every team to carry a solid answer or die, but the thing is there's plenty of those answers to choose from to put on a team. Yes it's overcentralizing and it makes every team look similar, but that's just how it is. Fletchinder doesn't break the meta because everybody carries a resist. It's not like Typhlosion where you had very limited options or were forced to go out of your way and use a subpar mon to counter it.

You're also suggesting that fletch will always have a chance to setup, without considering its 4x weakness to rocks and its frailty as a pokemon since it can't run eviolite. It also allows a tonne of offensive pressure for the team using fletch since it carries mono-flying coverage with will-o, roost, sd, it means that anything remotely offensive and resists flying, it will allow unnecessary pressure for the team using fletch which is why it is limited to a sweeper.
Rotter + sawk are wall breakers but the same principle occurs when needing resists for teams, hence why they are easier to revenge kill but harder to switch into.

Moral of the story is fletch isn't broken for several reasons, it's a cleaner not a wall breaker, stop saying it's broken

 

[testsubordinate]

You're also suggesting that fletch will always have a chance to setup, without considering its 4x weakness to rocks and its frailty as a pokemon since it can't run eviolite. It also allows a tonne of offensive pressure for the team using fletch since it carries mono-flying coverage with will-o, roost, sd, it means that anything remotely offensive and resists flying, it will allow unnecessary pressure for the team using fletch which is why it is limited to a sweeper.
Rotter + sawk are wall breakers but the same principle occurs when needing resists for teams, hence why they are easier to revenge kill but harder to switch into.

Moral of the story is fletch isn't broken for several reasons, it's a cleaner not a wall breaker, stop saying it's broken

He literally said the exact opposite of Fletchinder being broken.

 

[Raseri]

Magneton suspect is happening, all of the details are here

 

[About 7 Kidz]

Lol I love how Probopass is always the anti-meta.. Ferroseed got big we just bring in Probo to HP Fire trap it.. Now with Magneton we just Earth Power. The based lord. Also Fletch isnt that bad run a Lanturn.

 

[Luck O' the Irish]

Lol I love how Probopass is always the anti-meta.. Ferroseed got big we just bring in Probo to HP Fire trap it.. Now with Magneton we just Earth Power. The based lord. Also Fletch isnt that bad run a Lanturn.

The problem with probopass is that magneton can volt switch on it easily, not to mention that there are plenty of magnets running hp ground which at worst 2HKOs trapper probo depending on the magnets set. Since magnets is always gonna outspeed it the only way you're really trapping magneton is by bringing it in on a choice-locked hp grass or a scarf flash cannon/tbolt (you can't really come in on analytic specs) or revenging it after it has made a kill with one of the aforementioned moves.