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Announcement np: SV CAP Stage 6: Wave Of Mutilation (Cresceidon Nerf)

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:sv/cresceidon:


With CAPPL long behind us and the subsequent metagame survey wrapped up, we believe that now is a good time to move forward with tiering action and address some pain points in the metagame. To that end, the Metagame Council has voted to nerf Cresceidon.

Cresceidon has been, arguably, the most well-balanced CAP creation this gen; it landed in a great spot on release, and although it's certainly had some high peaks of viability, it's never proved too much to handle until now. It received an overall score of 2.1/5 on our first metagame survey a year ago, clearly indicating it was not nerfworthy, and just received a score of 3/5 on our recent survey, showing that the public now believes it to be an edge case. This was enough of a response for the Metagame Council to discuss Cresceidon amongst ourselves, ultimately landing on the decision nerf it.

But what changed between a year ago and now? Well, offense has continued to struggle to prove its consistency as a playstyle, something that can be attributed to a number of factors—priority users like Hemogoblin and Revenankh, phazers like Arghonaut and Ting-Lu, and so on—but Cresceidon ranking high among them. Cresceidon team structures have only gotten better with more experimentation, and by contrast, offensive teams have fewer and fewer resources at their disposal to deal with Cresceidon given the many other Pokemon they must also contend with. With a phenomenal defensive typing, access to fast Thunder Wave and Encore, and behind its protective shield of Multiscale, Cresceidon can essentially act as a one-time check to the vast majority of breakers and set-up sweepers in the metagame—and at peak performance, full para-fishing and Encore let it do this job repeatedly throughout a game by generating free recovery turns. Its foes must guess between Thunder Wave and Encore in Cresceidon's fourth moveslot, two options which mandate quite different responses both in the builder and in-game. Of course, Cresceidon can simply drop a STAB and run both of these moves as well, leaving opponents with a nigh on nonexistent list of safe choices. This is further compounded when taking into account the punishing secondary effects from both of its STABs—burns or SpA drops—as well as niche options like Taunt.

However, some of this logic can also be applied in the reverse. Cresceidon often can't afford to run both Thunder Wave and Encore, leaving it ill-equipped to handle every scenario, and even when running both it still faces pressure to make the correct play (for example, Encoring an Ogerpon-W into Swords Dance or Thunder Waving as it switches out, versus Encoring on a free switch or Thunder Waving and dying to Power Whip). It's hardly a perfect Pokemon, but it was deemed dominant enough by the Metagame Council warrant a downwards adjustment.

snake said:
1. The CAP Metagame Council identifies a broken/unhealthy threat. Input from the metagame discussion thread, Discord, high-level tournament replays, community surveys, etc. are ways the community can voice their concerns to the CAP Metagame council.

2. The CAP Metagame Council begins a thread. The OP, written by the CAP Metagame Council, summarizes why the Pokemon is broken. Metagame shifts, game mechanics changing, or OU bans can be potential points. Keep in mind that with the broken Pokemon in the metagame, we can continue to understand why it is broken.

3. In the thread, the community discusses the simplest solution(s) to making the CAP not broken. Some solutions may be changing its ability to one that's similar but not as good, reducing its speed tier, removing some of its bulk or attack, or removing a certain move or two from its movepool. The community will play a huge role in identifying what solutions are available, but CAP Metagame Council will have the final say on what nerf is implemented. Keep in mind that the nerf(s) that is(are) implemented MUST preserve the identity of the CAP (i.e. Necturna uses Sketch, Pajantom uses its powerful trapping move, etc.).
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Rules for posting in this thread:
  • Do not post one liners, nor uninformed posts.
  • Do not hold discussion on other potential nerfing processes.
  • Do not hold discussion on the nerfing system.
  • You are required to make respectful posts.
  • If you fail to follow these rules, your post will be deleted and you may be infracted.

We're aiming for this Nerfing Process to last for approximately 2 weeks.
 
I'm a bit confused why this is happening before a Gliscor Suspect considering the later scored nearly half a point higher in its qualified score on the latest survey.

Anyways I don't have a ton too say about Cresceidon other than I don't think it really needs that harsh of a nerf. Honestly just remove one of either Thunder Wave or Encore so it doesn't have that many options, and I guess remove Scald if you really hate it that much.
 
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Not much to personally add here, honestly; I just want to concur that if we feel this needs adjusting that the move is to remove either Thunder Wave or Encore. My intuition would tell me removing Encore would be a harder nerf since if something gets burned with Scald you can’t paralyze it, but I also could be wrong on that. At the end of the day, if we do need to remove something, I’m not particularly in favor of one over the other. I just think reducing the variance might be the adjustment needed and nothing more.
 
I'm a bit confused why this is happening before a Gliscor Suspect considering the later scored nearly half a point higher in its qualified score on the latest survey.

Fair question - nerfing a CAP has much fewer ramifications than suspecting an OU mon and potentially banning it from their tier, and there’s a much higher bar for the latter as a result. Gliscor indeed scored high on the survey, but a suspect would be a big decision that we didn’t feel comfortable jumping into right away. I’d say Gliscor was a bit worse at the end of CAPPL than it was at the beginning and it’s possible that those trends continue. There’s also the possibility that Gliscor would be easier to manage if offensive playstyles had a bit more breathing room as a result of Cresceidon’s nerf. Glisc is still very much on our radar, and I’d personally like to see it suspected if it remains at its current strength in a few months’ time. We just wanted to get the easier and simpler process out of the way first.

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I think we should just cut encore from Cresceidon. This is a nerfing process that feels way more clear-cut than usual. I think that access to both Encore and Thunder wave gives it too many options to suffocate faster beatdown playstyles. While TWave is probably the more problematic of the two options, I think Cresc would be a bit do-nothing without it. It would still have plenty of flexibility with its fourth moveslot should Encore be removed. It’s very close to being in a great spot, and a simple moveset nerf should get us there.
 
This is not much of a reply but I think its combination of Encore + Multiscale + Speed + Boots + Typing is an entirely beautiful and unique thing together that stands out in CAP. And after (rightfully) removing Encore from Kit, we don't really have a very viable fast Encore user like Cresc if we remove the move (Astrolotl has a lot of issues in today's meta).

My first take on a nerf would be to remove Scald, make Surf its primary water attack, and possibly lower its SpAtk so that Libra and more tankier/fat mons can switch into it better. (and in same vein, double-check that if Cresc wanted to run Modest as a result, that it would really lose out on a lot of important speed benchmarks).

EDIT: I'm also a fan of axing Thunder Wave! Shnowshner explains it well below.
 
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My interest in playing mons is unfortunately tied to a wide array of arbitrary factors like moon phase and ambient temperature so I don't have a lot of stake in how the nerf goes rn, but as the person most successfully gaslight into running PL and CL I do feel it's within my interest to chime in about my own observations on Cres, and what we can do to make the metagame better for those who are active.

I believe there are only four things we should be scrutinizing about Cresceidon's design. This isn't a flawless Pokemon, it's a fairly underwhelming damage dealer and occasional momentum sink to the point that people still run Prim in spite of how stacked our kit is. The issues mostly stem from the fact that trying to find a Pokemon that (A) safely switches into Cresceidon, and then (B) safely clicks a move into Cresceidon, is extremely difficult for a number of structures – mainly offense, but even slower builds can find themselves at a bit of a loss against the more demonic utility sets. Our best course of action from here is increasing the number of Pokemon that feel reasonably comfortable in front of Cres, namely, those which are more suited to faster offenses.

1. Thunder Wave
This is the big one and easily the most effective way to bump Cres down a notch or two. Maybe it's a bit beyond me to say this but it really feels that the longer you play and watch competitive mons, the more you come to understand that Thunder Wave (and Para in general) is often the best move one can make when it's affordable. Speed is such an important stat in how individual mons are meant to function, which then goes on to influence how whole teams synergize between members, so the fact that this shit gets paired with a cool 25% chance to do fuckall each turn with NO LIMIT really puts emphasis on keeping your team safe from Para as much as possible. Cresceidon is a fantastic user of Thunder Wave thanks to it's Speed and favorable matchup against most Grounds, and additionally finds itself in an environment low in splashable Electrics that would love to use a TWave Water as an entry point. This means the yellow magic button finds a lot of opportunities to get used during a match, and the more the opponent is paralyzed, the more Cresceidon and its teammates are able to push advantage. That 25% full para chance is especially nasty, as the Cres user will often decide that trading their own health for para is worth it, but because Cres outspeeds so much, there's a real chance that the opponent has their turn revoked by para, and Cres can go completely unpunished.

Now I want to preface all this with the fact that a fast, bulky Water, which is neutral to Ground and carries Thunder Wave, is an extremely strong and practical design for the kind of Pokemon we envisioned Cresceidon to be. Paralysis is very pro-concept for a fast wall: oh, something outspeeds you and removes your main advantage compared to other walls? Not anymore! It honestly comes across as so natural for Cresceidon's whole idea that I feel it'd be a shame to leave it behind. The blueprint I described above is not anywhere close to being overbearing on its own, Thunder Wave is only problematic because Cres has a lot of other, also problematic things it does, but this is still by far the most problematic thing Cres does in a vacuum, just by nature of Paralysis being Paralysis. We need to accept that axing TWave is the most straightforward path possible even if it feels integral to Cresceidon's design.

2. Encore
This is where things get real stupid. The number of Pokemon which can handle TWave Cres is rather modest, but definitely workable, and improves significantly when you factor in Tera or lures like Lum Berry. Encore presents a completely different form of danger but with ultimately similar purpose: do not let the opponent play the game. Cresceidon gets tons of opportunities to use Encore, given its Speed and great defenses.
You can stop setup users from getting anywhere, lock Pokemon into exploitable attacks, and bully bulky mons into wasting their limited Recovery on 16% HP or just sit there clicking Stealth Rock into the void. The mere threat of Encore generates situations where the opponent needs to respect the possibility, and the Cresceidon user is at a notable advantage here given that Cres, generally, does not die to any one attack and likely outpaces the switch-in, so it's more than happy to make the obvious play if it means the opponent now has to do something else.

Encore differs from Thunder Wave in being more prediction reliant, but having far greater immediacy in shutting down a threat and giving a teammate room to come in. If you're willing to drop a STAB, combining both moves onto a single set allows Cres to make some frankly disgusting plays. If you were to Recover with Arghonaut and Cresceidon comes in the logical conclusion is that it wants to Encore you, so the smart play is switching out, but now whatever you brought in better be safe against its STABs or Thunder Wave because you need to be prepped for all three cases. End result of this is that a lot of Cresceidon's safest answers are bulky mons with good recovery and status resistance, things like Snaelstrom, SpDef Gliscor, Garganacl (esp with Tera for the last two), and some tertiary switch-ins like Mollux, Glowking, Shox. It's not impossible to address, but the Pokemon listed definitely feel more at home on fatter structures which contributes to the dominance of bulky teams in CAP, and only those first three are truly safe from all of Cresceidon's immediate BS.

Something else worth mentioning: Encore largely prevents Substitute from being a good catch-all answer to Cresceidon. This mon has mediocre offenses with its primary Water move only scary because of the 30% Burn chance, and its other best button fails vs Substitute, so having a mon behind a Sub is extremely strong against Cres right up until it reveals Encore, and now we're back to square one. Without Encore, Substitute attackers are extremely good at frustrating Cresceidon's efforts.

Going forward I do not think we leave this process without one of Thunder Wave or Encore getting cut. When you only have the one it's annoying but good responses certainly exist; when you have to be prepared for the possibility of both, maybe even at the same time, approaching Cresceidon feels like you're constantly fighting on the backfoot, which is terrible for teams that lack the high sustainability needed.

3. Scald
A step below the previous two but not to the point where I feel it isn't worth mentioning. Given the tools at Cresceidon's disposal already, throwing in a STAB move that broadly pressures every physical attacker to get the hell out of dodge is just nasty. You know how much Caribolt would love to hard switch into Cresceidon? A strong physical attacker that you can't Thunder Wave and threatens Cres with both STABs meaning the response needs to either stomach both or guess correctly. Sadly you cannot take this risk because if it Scalds, you now face the very real possibility that Caribolt is ruined for the rest of the match beyond Healing Wish support. Even Pokemon that don't mind the halved physical damage aren't going to be happy that they are getting chipped every turn: bulky Gholdengo would be a surefire check to Cresceidon but the relationship gets significantly more shaky if it's Burned and now needs to spend more time healing, maybe you can utilize Covert Cloak to fully blank its options (also improves the Garg mu), but you're giving up other strong items like Boots, Lefties, or Balloon. It's just this extra layer of misery you need to weigh and I find it very unnecessary overall.

Removing Scald doesn't do enough on its own to make Cres more reasonable – again, I think either Thunder Wave or Encore have to go if we want to consider a nerf effective, but there's a strong case for taking Scald away as well.

4. The Speed Stat
This is a fairly understated aspect I find, however we do need to consider that the Pokemon which is infamous for bullying Offense does so primarily because it also outspeeds much of Offense. Now, part of Cresceidon's whole identity is that it's a wall with a high Speed stat. Our approach to this wasn't a wall that just so happens to outpace other Pokemon that don't invest in Speed, or are slow enough to not outpace us even with max investment. Instead we deliberately made a fully-fledged wall that tops off at 381 Speed, letting it blow past a number of already fast attackers. For refence, with the definition of "fast" getting more diluted each gen as power levels increase, I've always benchmarked a "fast" Pokemon as anything that can at least tie Wellspring's 350, given how dangerous she is as an offensive powerhouse. So yeah, Cresceidon's pretty damn fast, which leaves a rather short list of offensive Pokemon which can get the jump on it. There's 12 Pokemon which naturally outspeed Cres, of those only half are even good in CAP (those being Dragapult, Darkrai, Zamazenta, Stratagem, Deoxys-S, and Weavile), and of those remaining six, do any of them even want to face Cresceidon head-on? They certainly can with the right set or positioning or the funny Tera button but in a strict 1v1 it's definitely favoring Cresceidon. We are thankfully in the presence of other non-setup Speed options like Proto/Quark mons, various Priority attackers, maybe even a Scarfer here or there, so it's not completely unrealistic to have Cresceidon fighting uphill, but it's certainly much harder compared to literally every other wall in the game.

Maybe it's counter-intuitive to hit the brakes on a CAP designed to be fast, and I would agree that it feels somewhat disingenuous. At the same time I would also agree that we may have gone a good bit overboard with the Speed Stat, and personally as long as we're always outpacing the item-locked Woger I'd argue the concept is still being fulfilled, though I understand many others won't feel the same way.


What about Moonblast? Taunt? Abilities?
Yeah Moonblast is a dumb move and the SpA drop is annoying as hell, but it's significantly less of a long-term pain compared to status or losing all momentum from Encore. Both it and Scald were given because they work towards the "things a Fast wall does better than a slow one" as lowering your opponent's offenses before they even attack is great for walling. If we went full nuclear and stripped Cresceidon of any practical Status options Moonblast isn't going to be causing anything more than a mild headache.

Taunt has been mentioned as an option and some may feel it'll just replace Encore if we remove the latter, allowing Cres to continue harassing opponents just as it does now. While they are somewhat similar is dissuading setup or utility moves, their overall function couldn't be more different. Taunt requires you to pre-empt your opponent's options while Encore active abuses them. Taunt may prevent a SD user from boosting, but Encore prevents said SD user from using those boosts at all, while granting free entry for teammate all the while if desired. Taunt lacks that immediate pressure Encore presents in forcing numerous switches. This isn't to say Taunt doesn't have uses, it's still a strong move that appreciates users with great Speed, but the opportunities Taunt creates are far below the ones Encore regularly achieves.

Both Multiscale and Rough Skin are fine imo, Multiscale definitely makes this thing a nightmare to remove at times but that same property provides the metagame with an incredible pressure valve against SV's laundry list of scary offensive threats, and such a niche lets Cresceidon find a ton of value across various team structures. Being hard to KO isn't what makes Cres so oppressive, it's what it does while not being KO'd that people are displeased with. Rough Skin isn't as important to the design philosophy as Multiscale is but provides an avenue for Cres to have more immediate value against teams at the expense of significantly worse staying power, and that's a fair tradeoff in my eyes.



TL:DR the best route is going to be tackling either Thunder Wave or Encore, with considerations going to cutting Scald and some Speed as well. If I had to pick I'd prefer just killing Encore but I'm not super familiar with CAP atm so don't take that as gospel or anything, Thunder Wave still deserves getting axed simply as a bottom 5 game mechanic even if it plays into Cresceidon's concept much better.
 
1. Thunder Wave
This is the big one and easily the most effective way to bump Cres down a notch or two. Maybe it's a bit beyond me to say this but it really feels that the longer you play and watch competitive mons, the more you come to understand that Thunder Wave (and Para in general) is often the best move one can make when it's affordable.
I compelety agree, the amount of ways to paralyse mons in CAP espically is ridicolous, there are 7 mons that you run into in the meta which run paralysis causing mons which already feels like a lot with Cresc, Shox, Pult, Glowking, Gholdengo, Glare Rev recently, Zapdos and loads of other mons that are used somewhat with acsess to paralsyis like Nuzzle Hat, Cychlom, Rotom-W and Darkrai.

Getting the free turn to recover, is nearly always worth it for Cresc and for the team in general. Its a ridicolosy powerful move that effectively kills pokemon eg dragapult and chuggalong while crippling slower mons.

Removing thunder wave is a very easy nerf to do while still keeping the fast disrupting bulky mon with rough skin/multiscale, great typing and encore, recover, scald and moonblast.
 
I think removing Thunder Wave is a massive nerf since the standard switch-ins to Cresc (Mollux, Gking) now switch in for free. I think it is probably the best path given how toxic Para-spam is, but I think there should be a compensatory buff, eg. Psychic Noise / (Worry Seed, Gastro Acid) / Knock Off / Flip Turn to ensure Cresc can actually do something in such matchups. The latter 2 options are boring, but I think the first ones have genuine good applications and are cool.
 
The obsession in CAP with having an option to deal with every mon in the meta gets ridiculous at times, especially right now when there is a nerf process going on.

Mollux and Gking are common, but they certainly aren’t on every team, nor does their simple presence on an opposing team neutralize Cresc, nor would it if Cresc lost TWave. There are 5 other mons you can use to shore up Cresc’s weaknesses. Is it that outlandish to propose that whatever matchups are changed because of the nerf should just be accepted as poor matchups for Cresc?
 
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