Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 9: Violet Hill (Terapagos & Kyurem-Black banned)

Actuarily · Dec 10, 2023

Was a long and dark December
From the rooftops I remember
There was snow
White snow

The second downloadable content of Scarlet & Violet, the Indigo Disk, is about to be released! It is projected to be released on December 14th, and we believe Showdown will updated that day. With the DLC comes new Pokémon and new movesets for existing Pokémon, which will surely change up the Doubles OU metagame. While we can’t be 100% certain of what’s to come, here’s what we expect based off what we’ve heard thus far.

We’re expecting that the below Pokémon will be returning to SV DOU:

Bulbasaur

Ivysaur

Venusaur

Squirtle

Wartortle

Blastoise

Oddish

Gloom

Vileplume

Doduo

Dodrio

Seel

Dewgong

Exeggcute

Exeggutor

Hitmonlee

Hitmonchan :Hitmonchan:

Rhyhorn

Rhydon

Magmar

Lapras

Chikorita

Bayleef

Meganium

Totodile

Croconaw

Feraligatr :Feraligatr:

Bellossom

Skarmory

Smeargle

Tyrogue

Hitmontop

Magby

Raikou

Entei

Suicune

Lugia

Ho-Oh

Treecko

Grovyle

Sceptile

Torchic

Combusken

Blaziken

Mudkip

Marshtomp

Swampert

Trapinch

Vibrava

Flygon

Beldum

Metang

Metagross

Latias

Latios

Cranidos

Rampardos

Shieldon

Bastiodon

Rhyperior

Magmortar

Snivy

Servine

Serperior

Tepig

Pignite

Emboar

Blitzle

Zebstrika

Cottonee

Whimsicott :Whimsicott:

Minccino

Cinccino

Solosis

Duosion

Reuniclus

Joltik

Galvantula :Galvantula:

Golett

Golurk

Cobalion

Terrakion

Virizion

Reshiram

Zekrom

Kyurem

Espurr

Meowstic

Inkay

Malamar

Litten

Torracat

Incineroar :Incineroar:

Popplio

Brionne

Primarina

Pikipek

Trumbeak

Toucannon

Cosmog

Cosmoem

Solgaleo

Lunala

Necrozma

Milcery

Alcremie

Duraludon

Then we expect the following new Pokémon to be joining the metagame.

Archaludon
Raging Bolt
Iron Crown
Terapagos (Normal form)
Terapagos (Terastal form)

As always, when there’s a new batch of Pokémon entering the metagame, this will require rapid tiering. So the DOU Council will follow Smogon Tiering Policy and have all new Pokemon to SV (excluding cover legends) start as Doubles OU eligible. However, Pokémon that were previously banned in SV DOU will start out as banned. The cover legendaries that we expect to be released in this DLC, and thus start as banned in DOU are as follows:
Lugia :Lugia:

Ho-Oh

Reshiram

Zekrom

Kyurem-White :kyurem-white:

Solgaleo

Lunala

Necrozma Dusk Mane :Necrozma Dusk Mane:

Necrozma Dawn Wings :Necrozma Dawn Wings:

That being said, as of right now we also think that Terapagos in both it's forms will also be a cover legend. But until we know for sure what their base stats are, we cannot be sure how to treat them. So due to there not being (to our knowledge as so far) any returning pokemon that were banned in the latest generation they were available, and because we don't know for certain the stats of the new pokemon, the first quickban slate held by the council will occur as soon as we know for sure what pokemon are becoming available and what their stats are. This likely means that slate will take place on December the 14th or just before it.

Following that, there will be 3 quickban vote slates to try to quickly react to metagame changes and remove any overpowered Pokemon from the metagame.

The first will occur on December the 17th, and any Pokemon that were included on the pre-release slate will be voted on.*
The second will occur on December the 24th, and new Pokémon in the DLC will be eligible to be included. Pokémon included on the pre-release slate will also be included.
The last will occur on December the 31st. In this slate, all Pokémon included on the previous slate will be voted on.

After these slates, suspect tests will be the preferred method to determine tiering. On these quickban slates, Pokemon must receive a 2/3 supermajority vote in order to change tiers, either moving from Dubers to DOU or banning from DOU to DUbers.

* If there are any new elements that the council feels must be dealt with immediately for the health of the metagame, they can be included on the slate on the 17th.

This thread will be where all announcements regarding tiering decisions will be posted. This is also the thread that should be used for discussion of the post-DLC SV DOU metagame. The council would love to hear your input regarding how the new Pokemon will affect the metagame. We're looking forward to this new metagame and the discussion that follows!

Grandmas Cookin · Dec 10, 2023

no fishing in my dlc 2

Kenpwnchi · Dec 10, 2023

With DLC 2 coming, what's the popular opinion on Flutter Mane still being a part of the meta? I haven't heard many complaints about it since the last suspect test.

Actuarily · Dec 13, 2023

The pre-release of the DLC qb slate has been completed. To our knowledge, other than cover legends, no pokemon coming in the Indigo Disk that have preciously been banned in the most recent generation they were legal. So the council just voted on Pokemon that were currently banned in SV DOU. The votes and reasonings are below.

:Magearna:

Magearna

Actuarily: Dubers. Its ability is just too strong, and I don’t see any new mons that would balance it.

GenOne: DUbers for sure. Its ability Soul-Heart snowballs way too fast in any Doubles format it has ever touched, and I don’t see this changing with the new DLC.

JRL: Dubers. Ability + types so broken

Nido-Rus: Dubers. Nothing changes with this mon, broken ability

SMB: Dubers, its ability it too much for dou

Qsns: Dubers, silly goose Pokemon with a ridiculous ability

Yoda2798: DUbers. Not much has changed to stop its incredible snowball potential with Soul Heart.

Urshifu

Actuarily: Dubers but I am on the fence about it. But ultimately Fighting + Dark is great offensive stab and Tera would just let it fire off multiple wicked blows.

GenOne: DUbers. Too many compounding factors lead to it being overpowering in DOU, such as its nearly unresisted Dark / Fighting STAB, ability to bypass Protect, and access to a strong guaranteed crit attack. It gets pushed even further over the edge with Tailwind support and Tera.

JRL: Dubers. Breaks protects preventing pivoting breaking balanced

Nido-Rus: Dubers. Historically always been a problematic mon in DOU. I want to try and test this down eventually but I don’t think the start of what is probably the final new meta is the time for it, needs a focused individual look on how it impacts the meta.

SMB: Dubers until the funny mechanic is banned

Qsns: Dubers. It hits through Protect, has stupid TW partners like whimsi and torn, and we’re not getting Tapu Fini (I do not think this would stop it anyway)

Yoda2798: DUbers. Was before in a format even with Tapu Fini, the best Fairy at the moment (Flutter Mane) doesn't even resist Dark, and is quite vulnerable to Sucker Punch, a big advantage it has on top of its excellent STAB coverage.

Tatsugiri

Actuarily: Dubers as it’s still extremely uncompetitive, but if there’s a few more viable haze users maybe I could reconsider.

GenOne: DUbers. The new DLC doesn’t introduce any significant changes that would alter how uncompetitive an omniboosted Dondozo has been in previous iterations of SV DOU. If anything it just introduces stronger partners to add to a Tatsuguri + Dondozo squad.

JRL: Dubers. Centralize the build, forcing you to carry haze if you don't want to lose against this combo

Nido-Rus: Dubers. Nothing changed, still as uncompetitive as ever in how its mechanics work.

SMB: Dou, it should be tested in current dou, using it might have more downsides than what people expect. There are way more checks and gameplans than when it was banned and a good gameplan against it might mean playing 4v6 for the tatsugiri player.

Qsns: Dubers, uncompetitive/matchup fishy at its core

Yoda2798: DOU. Has only been legal pre-home, the additions since then are plenty enough to warrant another look, and the stronger partners argument doesn't hold up. Much weaker in VGC now compared to the start of the generation, as a comparison. There's also a lot of strong boosters currently that teams are able to handle, and much more damage mitigation in the form of Intimidate and Will-o-Wisp going around.

Annihilape

Actuarily: Dubers, Tera just makes it too strong and hard to counter. Arguably the fairies that we know are coming are more boons to Annihilape than counters (whimsicott with potentially beat up, Comfey, etc.)

GenOne: DUbers. Rage Fist has too high of a damage ceiling for a Pokemon like Annihilape which also benefits from unresisted STAB coverage, good overall stats, and good longevity thanks to Drain Punch. (Pairing it with Beat Up Whimsicott is also a wild thought LOL.)

JRL: Dubers. Rage Fist along with good companions who help it with beating, make this pokemon unstoppable

Nido-Rus: Dubers. Also something that may deserve more specific attention down the line, but tera and all these amazing support options make it far too easy to get ape setup going. Even gets follow me/encore ogerpon now, as well as ninetales-a as a potential screens option.

SMB: Dubers until the funny mechanic is banned

Qsns: Dubers. Even in higher power formats, it centralizes every match it’s in around itself every time and has such a wide variety of powerful support options (with new ones coming like Whimsicott xD) that it’s too difficult to account for in the builder.

Yoda2798: DUbers. With Tera is maybe the strongest setup Pokémon to ever exist in DOU, being able to pick and change weaknesses while investing heavily in special bulk and boosting physically, then having a nuke in Rage Fist and recovery in Drain Punch, with multiple strong abilities as well. Was Unbanned before and functioned the same, better support options help it even more while new offensive options don't work as well in the opposite direction.

Shadow Tag

Actuarily: Dubers. Fake out exacerbates shadow tag and the best answer to that is also the biggest benefactor (Flutter Mane).

GenOne: DUbers. Nothing being introduced in the new DLC will provide new answers to Shadow Tag and, if anything, we’ll be getting new would-be beneficiaries.

JRL: Dubers. Preventing something as basic in Pokémon as changes just by being on the field, makes this ability toxic

Nido-Rus: Dubers. Nothing new that we know about regarding its mechanics and how it plays in doubles.

SMB: Dou, it wasn’t banworthy in previous gens and it hasn’t been tested in this gen for me to say the opposite

Qsns: Dubers. STag is a broken ability that creates too many pins.

Yoda2798: DUbers. Obviously not actually broken in itself when it's Gothitelle that's actually the problem, but with Fake Out can just consistently force advantageous board positions when the opponent can't move or switch. Having good Ghost-types does help, but Gothitelle still does its thing against everything else, and Covert Cloak isn't really significant enough to change things either.

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike

Actuarily: Dubers. On the fence about this one, but Torn + Urshifu is still an excellent combo, and Tera poison or water can make this quickly eliminate multiple mons.

GenOne: DUbers. It isn’t quite as unmanageable as Urshifu-Single-Strike due to worse typing but is otherwise problematic for all the same reasons. And as others said, it can be pushed over the edge with Tera, dynamic Tailwind support, and rain while also having a favorable matchup into some new DLC threats like Inceneroar and Kyuerm.

JRL: Dubers. Rain + strikes + tera water break any team in addition to avoiding pivoting, breaking protection

Nido-Rus: Dubers, VGC has been a great way to gain perspective on how something like this might look in a very similar doubles meta. Does not look good. Of course there are pretty significant differences, but the same core factors that led to banning it in DOU are what make it so problematic in VGC, and I wouldn’t want to see a repeat of that.

SMB: Dubers until the funny mechanic is banned

Qsns: Dubers, has still has Rain Tera and Torn. Also gets to farm Incineroar for free attacking opportunities now and everything else we know returning sucks into it. IMO would be better than Single Strike and don’t see the meta doing anything but devolving into Torn Ursh with the info we have now.

Yoda2798: DOU. I wasn't 100% on voting to quick ban at the time, and voted to unban at the start of the previous slate (along with other council members). Since it was voted banned we’ve had Grassy Glide returned which while weakened still helps, but more importantly Ogerpon, with Wellspring being especially notable as an immunity to its Water STABs. Deserves more of a look than it has been given.

Basculegion

Actuarily: Dubers. Theres a few interesting checks coming, but with it being suspected twice I really think it would have to clearly not be banworthy.

GenOne: DUbers. The damage ceiling Basculegion is capable of reaching with Last Respects is simply too high to be fair, even if we get a few checks with the new DLC.

JRL: Dubers. Last respect in the late game makes him wipe out entire teams, plus he cannot be stopped with fake out and his power after 3 deaths makes him unstoppable

Nido-Rus: Dubers. The power level it reaches with 2 or 3 KOd mons, or even 1 in some cases, is still unreasonable for the drawbacks it has.

SMB: Dou, I don’t think it was banworthy before and nothing new seems to push it to that edge

Qsns: Dubers, we’ve had multiple suspects for the mon and its damage ceiling is too high.

Yoda2798: DUbers. Last DLC added what should have been able to keep it in check and that wasn't enough, don't see things changing now. Incineroar is interesting as a check, but at the same time it would also make an excellent partner in helping it get to click Last Respects more times, like Ogerpon ended up doing.

Darkrai

Actuarily: Dubers. Darkrai is very broken and to my knowledge there isnt any stuff coming that could make it balanced.

GenOne: DUbers, because Dark Void is silly and has no place in a competitive environment. Just banning Dark Void instead of Darkrai works too though if we’re allowed to do that.

JRL: dark void if it is ban, darkray itself I don't think so

Nido-Rus: Dubers. Can we just ban dark void instead?

SMB: Dubers, we have enough funny stuff in dou with the funny mechanic

Qsns: Would prefer to ban Dark Void since we have permission from Tiering Admins to do so i think? Think we should vote on that. Otherwise yeah fast Dark Void is uncompetitive.

Yoda2798: DUbers. Great Speed tier and Dark Void lead to Darkrai being too strong. Banning Dark Void is just silly and blatantly trying to ban part of the Pokémon instead of the Pokémon itself.

As a result, there are no changes. Feel free to discuss this vote or any thoughts on the upcoming metagame below!

ryo yamada2001 · Dec 16, 2023

First post-DLC room tournament replays
Round 1
eragon11145 vs nahte
Rayenith vs AIRedzone
Smudge vs Queen of Bean
laptops vs LuBiStar
qsns vs YoBuddy
lemurro vs andy1510
Iceberg77 vs Toxinalpaca
Schister vs jello

Round 2
Smudge vs Rayenith
eragon11145 vs Schister
qsns vs Lemurro
laptops vs Iceberg77

Semis
eragon vs Smudge
qsns vs laptops

Finals
qsns vs eragon

Notable teams and archetypes:
:roaring-moon:

-- Standard goodstuffs
qsns brought a standard metagame composition including two bulky pivots in Rillaboom and Incineroar to create opportunities for Flutter Mane to attack more freely and for Kyurem-B and Gholdengo to set up Dragon Dance and Nasty Plot, respectively. Roaring Moon was a very common pick in this tournament, with a favorable typing profile against Psyspam, and being an additional Knock Off user against Clear Amulet setup oriented team compositions

:kyurem-black:

-- Hardcore setup
Tier leader Smudge bringing some NatDex flavor into SV DOU with Coaching Pawmot + Clear Amulet Dragon Dance Kyurem-B & new addition Gouging Fire; a composition oriented around generating lots of boosts quickly as it defiantly sets up against most common attackers. If one Dragon Dancer perishes simply call upon the other! Prone to struggling against Knock Off Incineroar, who could pivot around both Kyurem-B and Gouging Fire quite easily

:terapagos:

-- Iron Defense Body Press
eragon brought a different kind of setup oriented team composition with Iron Defense Body Press + Amnesia Registeel, a defensive behemoth whose Clear Body and favorable typing profile is very good against common archetypes. Suicune functioned as an additional setup disruptor, with its Tera Poison and Roar removing common foes. Unfortunately it struggled in the finals against qsns' Nasty Plot Gholdengo, as Registeel couldn't hit it and Suicune couldn't Roar it off the field

:gouging-fire:

-- Gouging Fire Sun
laptops brought a new flavor of manual Sun, looking to support three powerful Photosynthesis users in Gouging Fire, Walking Wake, and Flutter Mane respectively, held together by bulky pivots in Rillaboom and Iron Hands. It's another team composition that doesn't love Knock Off Incineroar for its ability to disrupt precious Sun turns, removing Gouging Fire's Clear Amulet, and weakening its core pivots with Intimidate

Usage stats

First Post-DLC roomtour

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Flutter Mane       |   22 |  73.33% |  63.64% |
| 2    | Rillaboom          |   15 |  50.00% |  60.00% |
| 3    | Kyurem-Black       |   12 |  40.00% |  66.67% |
| 3    | Tornadus           |   12 |  40.00% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Roaring Moon       |    8 |  26.67% |  75.00% |
| 5    | Incineroar         |    8 |  26.67% |  75.00% |
| 5    | Terapagos          |    8 |  26.67% |  62.50% |
| 5    | Gouging Fire       |    8 |  26.67% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Iron Hands         |    8 |  26.67% |  37.50% |
| 10   | Sinistcha          |    6 |  20.00% |  66.67% |
| 10   | Chi-Yu             |    6 |  20.00% |  16.67% |
| 12   | Volcanion          |    5 |  16.67% |  60.00% |
| 12   | Landorus-Therian   |    5 |  16.67% |  40.00% |
| 14   | Gholdengo          |    4 |  13.33% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Iron Crown         |    4 |  13.33% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Glimmora           |    4 |  13.33% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Pawmot             |    3 |  10.00% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Walking Wake       |    3 |  10.00% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Suicune            |    3 |  10.00% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Registeel          |    3 |  10.00% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Indeedee-F         |    3 |  10.00% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Whimsicott         |    3 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Chien-Pao          |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Sneasler           |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Regidrago          |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Iron Bundle        |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Ribombee           |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Kleavor            |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Deoxys-Attack      |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Regieleki          |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Basculegion-F      |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Metagross          |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Keldeo             |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Lilligant-Hisui    |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Torkoal            |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Diancie            |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Empoleon           |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Kingambit          |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Wigglytuff         |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Articuno-Galar     |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Hatterene          |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Vikavolt           |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Serperior          |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Archaludon         |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Kingdra            |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Pelipper           |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Ogerpon-Wellspring |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |

ryo yamada2001 · Dec 16, 2023

Tour 2 - congratulations to Rayenith for winning!
Round 1
Arcticblast vs kodiak3b
Rayenith vs Iceberg77
Lemurro vs Queen of Bean
Test Bots vs Nido-Rus
GBarmada vs YoBuddy
LuBiStar vs Schister
xqiht vs Jello

Round 2
Arcticblast vs fangame10
Rayenith vs Lemurro
GBarmada vs Test Bots
xqiht vs LuBiStar

Semis
Rayenith vs Arcticblast -- despite getting a second wind from Pawmot's Revival Blessing, Deoxys-A's Expanding Force in Psychic Terrain was not enough to knock out Raye's Flutter Mane or get past Indeedee-F
xqiht vs GBarmada -- xqiht brings qsns' goodstuffs team from above post, has to pivot expeditiously around GBarmada's hyper setup squad centered around Belly Drum Iron Hands, supported by Life Dew Clefairy, Lunar Blessing Cresselia, and Rage Powder Sinistcha

Finals
Rayenith vs xqiht -- a mirror between two different spices of Calm Mind Terapagos

Tour 2 usage stats

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Incineroar         |   12 |  46.15% |  58.33% |
| 1    | Flutter Mane       |   12 |  46.15% |  58.33% |
| 1    | Kyurem-Black       |   12 |  46.15% |  58.33% |
| 4    | Sinistcha          |   10 |  38.46% |  80.00% |
| 5    | Rillaboom          |    9 |  34.62% |  22.22% |
| 6    | Terapagos          |    8 |  30.77% |  75.00% |
| 6    | Iron Hands         |    8 |  30.77% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Indeedee-F         |    7 |  26.92% |  85.71% |
| 9    | Whimsicott         |    6 |  23.08% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Iron Boulder       |    6 |  23.08% |  33.33% |
| 11   | Iron Crown         |    4 |  15.38% | 100.00% |
| 11   | Deoxys-Attack      |    4 |  15.38% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Tornadus           |    4 |  15.38% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Raging Bolt        |    4 |  15.38% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Kingambit          |    4 |  15.38% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Chi-Yu             |    4 |  15.38% |  25.00% |
| 17   | Clefairy           |    3 |  11.54% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Cresselia          |    3 |  11.54% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Hydrapple          |    3 |  11.54% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Pawmot             |    3 |  11.54% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Ogerpon-Wellspring |    3 |  11.54% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Landorus-Therian   |    3 |  11.54% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Gholdengo          |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Arcanine-Hisui     |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Terrakion          |    2 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Gouging Fire       |    2 |   7.69% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Sneasler           |    2 |   7.69% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Roaring Moon       |    1 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Chien-Pao          |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Porygon2           |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Regieleki          |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Basculegion-F      |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Comfey             |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Mew                |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Landorus           |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Grimmsnarl         |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Skeledirge         |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Keldeo             |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Ninetales-Alola    |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Ursaluna           |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Sinistcha-Masterpiece |    1 |   3.85% |   0.00% |

Cumulative usage stats

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Flutter Mane       |   34 |  60.71% |  61.76% |
| 2    | Kyurem-Black       |   24 |  42.86% |  62.50% |
| 2    | Rillaboom          |   24 |  42.86% |  45.83% |
| 4    | Incineroar         |   20 |  35.71% |  65.00% |
| 5    | Sinistcha          |   16 |  28.57% |  75.00% |
| 5    | Terapagos          |   16 |  28.57% |  68.75% |
| 5    | Tornadus           |   16 |  28.57% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Iron Hands         |   16 |  28.57% |  43.75% |
| 9    | Indeedee-F         |   10 |  17.86% |  70.00% |
| 9    | Gouging Fire       |   10 |  17.86% |  40.00% |
| 9    | Chi-Yu             |   10 |  17.86% |  20.00% |
| 12   | Roaring Moon       |    9 |  16.07% |  77.78% |
| 12   | Whimsicott         |    9 |  16.07% |  33.33% |
| 14   | Iron Crown         |    8 |  14.29% |  75.00% |
| 14   | Landorus-Therian   |    8 |  14.29% |  25.00% |
| 16   | Gholdengo          |    6 |  10.71% |  83.33% |
| 16   | Pawmot             |    6 |  10.71% |  66.67% |
| 16   | Iron Boulder       |    6 |  10.71% |  33.33% |
| 19   | Volcanion          |    5 |   8.93% |  60.00% |
| 19   | Deoxys-Attack      |    5 |   8.93% |  40.00% |
| 19   | Kingambit          |    5 |   8.93% |  40.00% |
| 22   | Raging Bolt        |    4 |   7.14% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Glimmora           |    4 |   7.14% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Sneasler           |    4 |   7.14% |  25.00% |
| 22   | Ogerpon-Wellspring |    4 |   7.14% |  25.00% |
| 26   | Clefairy           |    3 |   5.36% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Cresselia          |    3 |   5.36% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Hydrapple          |    3 |   5.36% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Walking Wake       |    3 |   5.36% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Suicune            |    3 |   5.36% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Registeel          |    3 |   5.36% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Chien-Pao          |    3 |   5.36% |  33.33% |
| 33   | Arcanine-Hisui     |    2 |   3.57% |  50.00% |
| 33   | Terrakion          |    2 |   3.57% |  50.00% |
| 33   | Regieleki          |    2 |   3.57% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Basculegion-F      |    2 |   3.57% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Keldeo             |    2 |   3.57% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Porygon2           |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Comfey             |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Mew                |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Landorus           |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Grimmsnarl         |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Skeledirge         |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Ninetales-Alola    |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Ursaluna           |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Sinistcha-Masterpiece |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Regidrago          |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Iron Bundle        |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Ribombee           |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Kleavor            |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Metagross          |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Lilligant-Hisui    |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Torkoal            |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Diancie            |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Empoleon           |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Wigglytuff         |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Articuno-Galar     |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Hatterene          |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Vikavolt           |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Serperior          |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Archaludon         |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Kingdra            |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Pelipper           |    1 |   1.79% |   0.00% |

First observations:
- :flutter-mane:

Flutter Mane is still the best Pokemon in the tier. The addition of Incineroar arguably has made it even better, giving it more attacking opportunities and weakening the few physical attackers that might think of dealing with it. Flutter Mane responds well to every archetype, including Psypam (see: Rayenith's 116 HP / 0 SpD Flutter Mane living a Life Orb Deoxys-A's Expanding Force in Psychic Terrain); despite new drops I think this Pokemon should be one of the first on the quickban slate

- :kyurem-black:

Setup teams are a very popular archetype as it gets two new releases who synergize very well with each other. Kyurem-B benefits from Incineroar's skill set to generate easy Dragon Dance opportunities, while ignoring opposing Incineroar's Intimidate with Clear Amulet until it gets knocked off. A more fringe Dragon Dance option is Gouging Fire, whose new Fire-type Stomping Tantrum move lets it be a fearsome sweeper if given enough space. New Coaching Pokemon such as Pawmot and Sneasler help accelerate these teammates' setup, while Sinistcha's Hospitality gives these Pokemon some extra juice in a pivot-heavy metagame. Calm Mind Terapagos is also promising, although we're still figuring out how exactly its Tera mechanics function (also Tera Shift is bugged right now)

- :roaring-moon:

roaring moon look good

Schister · Dec 16, 2023

A Quick Guide to Coaching Mons in Scarlet and Violet Doubles OverUsed:

Hey all, DLC is here and coaching has returned to place a scourge upon this earth so I wanted to outline some of the best mons that have the move to expedite coaching development in this metagame because this move is broken and though I think it should be banned with haste, I know a lot of other people may not recognize its power or realize the mons capable of abusing it. So for the sake of Metagame development here's some of the best coaching mons that came with the DLC.

Sneasler

This is easily one of the best coaches in the tier, filling a very similar niche to Zeraora in SS and natdex as a coacher. Sneasler has an good attack stat with excellent STAB Options in Close Combat, Gunk Shot and Dire Claw, the latter of which can really steal momentum in games out of nowhere, which augments its incredible access to fake out and blistering speed tier with Unburden. Sneasler's speed tier with unburden is so excellent that it can afford to run a good amount of bulk invest while still being able to outspeed everything and offer a solid amount of pressure via Dire claw. While Unburden may be one-time deal and requires activation, Sneasler has a wonderful partner in Rillaboom, whose terrain and pivoting makes it a natural choice to pair with sneasler. Grassy seed will augment Sneasler's bulk to enable it with its decent defensive typing and is a generally good supporting mon for Bulky setup teams anyways. Sneasler has a few other options for activating unburden, such as normal gem + fake out, White herb with close combat, psychic seed and focus sash, but none of these options are quite as consistent as Grassy seed. That being said, Sneasler compresses many desirable qualities into a single pokemon with coaching; its natural synergy with Rillaboom, access to fake out, and good offensive presence means sneasler can offer plenty of value on its own while being able to augment your win conditions very well.

Iron Valiant :Iron valiant:

While lacking in access to fake out that sneasler has, Iron valiant can act as a more independent coacher by not being as tied to Rillaboom to bolster its speed tier. Valiant has access to a number of powerful supporting moves including: encore, wide guard, taunt, icy wind, knock off, thunder wave, disable, destiny bond and helping hand. This all makes Valiant's supportive options extremely customizable while it boasts a great attack stat to pair with STAB close combat or Spirit Break for mitigating special threats. However, Valiant's defenses can leave much to be desired, and it's speed tier while great with booster energy means that it cannot run focus sash making iron valiant a ride or die kind of coacher. Still, many of Valiant's unique tools are unmatched even by mew, and its combination of speed and great offensive power compared to other coachers means it probably has something to offer for a few team styles

Mew

One of the premier coachers of SS and Natdex, mew finds itself returning with a few new tools in its arsenal but missing one large one. The loss of fake out means that mew has to find the right compression to justify itself as a coacher, especially compared to the two mons listed above. This shouldn't be too difficult for the pink blob though, as its tailroom access and innumerable support options with acceptable bulk means that mew can compress critical speed support with some tools of its own, such as pollen puff to heal its partner, a move most other coaching mons lack access to. Mew is also one of two coaching mons with Snarl around in the absence of Zeraora and one of the few not weak to Fairy types.

Lilligant-Hisui :Lilligant-hisui:

One of sun's premier support pokemon gained some new toys with the DLC, being Coaching, Upper Hand and Triple Axel. As one of the fastest mons around under sun, Lilligant-Hisui can afford to hold a focus sash and buy itself a few opportunities to coach some truly terrifying sun threats such as Gouging Flame or Roaring moon, whose protosynthesis access will allow them to outrun much of the competition. Lilligant's speed tier combined with Sleep powder, Powerful STAB Close Combat and Solar Blade, and ability to stop fake out with Upper Hand thanks to its blistering speed granting it priority over almost all fake out users aside from the aforementioned Sneasler should make it the premier choice for coaching on sun teams. Lilligant's tools don't end there though, as it also has access to the excellent pollen puff, encore for disruption, and Helping hand/After You to enable especially strong or fast hits.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Less Viable Coaching Options

:Cobalion:

Cobalion

Cobalion may not seem like a great option, given its poor Special bulk, but it gained a useful new tool this generation that may change how it's played: Body Press. Cobalion's access to STAB base 129 defense Body press means it can afford to invest soley into its defensive stats while still being able to do a respectable amount of damage if need be, and its steel typing makes it rather easy to bring in. In fact Cobalion's steel typing makes it part of a very exclusive club of coaches that can't get hit super effectively by Flutter Mane, and if invested well enough it does have the bulk to eat Moonblast. Cobalion also has a few additional supporting moves such as rocks and Taunt or Volt Switch to generate some momentum, though you may just be better off running a Iron Head to bonk Flutter Manes that threaten it or its partner with a bad time. The other swords of Justice share this compression, but Terrakion and Keldeo probably have better things to do, and Virizion is probably just worse Hilligant even outside of sun.

Kommo-o

Although probably better suited to being a win condition, Kommo's good bulk and interesting typing could make it a fairly easy to position coacher. Returning access to breaking swipe gives it a unique niche over other coaches, being able to mitigate damage on opposing threats while having no shortage of coverage options and solid attack stats. Kommo-o can bring coverage for mons your win condition may not like seeing, though all this said, its middling speed and damning 4x fairy weakness means its probably better left on the bench than its contemporaries, just like the next mon on this list.

Scrafty

If you needed to compress fake out, intimidate, and coaching into one slot, then you're in luck because this guy exists! He even gained Encore this generation! Scrafty is even one of two coaching mons that has snarl! Unfortunately it has a damning 4x weakness to fairy, making it difficult to position, has a poor offensive presence compared to other coaches, and is slow as balls. Still, decent invested bulk and insane compression combined with being the only coacher that doesn't get locked into fake out or protect by Whimsicott (it still gets nuked though, lol) means this guy might be able to do something

EDIT

Iron Leaves :Iron leaves:

Had this guy in my notes but forgot to mention it here. Iron leaves has an actual base stat total and a good enough special defense stat to stand in front of Flutter Mane and psyspam and do its thing, something most other mons here can't claim. It also compresses Ally Switch and helping hand, and has a Strong 130 attack stat to strike foes with, as well as access to booster energy, making it the bulkiest Coaching mon that can outspeed Flutter mane. its ability to eat special hits well and mindgame with ally switch for its partner while being quite fast definitely warrants a spot here.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These mons probably suck but they could be funny:

:cinderace:

Cinderace

The only coaching mon in the whole game that resists fairy. Adamant can also OHKO flutter mane up to a reasonable amount of bulk:
252+ Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 116 HP / 88 Def Tera Fairy Flutter Mane: 280-330 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also offers fast pivoting and court change utility if you're into that sort of thing, but otherwise its sole niche is to have a somewhat positive matchup into flutter (still gets 2hit by shadow ball)

Mienshao

More Fake out + Coaching, now featuring Inner Focus for fake out immunity. Has decent speed and a good attack stat to work with with some interesting utility options like wide guard helping hand and u-turn too but is still very frail and hard to justify using over faster coaches with better bulk. (this one's for you, EternalSnowman)

Riolu

Prankster Coaching. Has an extremely limited movepool but can fill out slots with Feint to break protection, helping hand and weather setting in sunny day/rain dance or even screech/quick guard. Obviously it's a riolu with a hard time filling moves but prankster is prankster.

Pawmot

The Poor Man's zeraora. Fake out and revival blessing access with double shock means it might do something for 2 turns. Terrible defenses and poor speed compared to other coaching options makes this one hard to justify though.

Hitmontop

Even worse scrafty. (But I love him)

:hariyama:

Hariyama

Coaching + fake out and is fat, also has access to upper hand and a good attack stat.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Closing:

Hopefully this post is helpful in aiding some players in finding coaching mons. I will add that after staring at the coaching list forever, there is a very common weakness to flutter mane among most of the users, leaving the best options as mons that can out run it and bonk it such as sneasler and Lilligant or a few bulkier users that offer interesting compression and utilities. With Whimsicott in the tier able to disrupt and blast many of these pokemon and Flutter mane as strong as ever I believe there should be plenty of tools to shut down coaching available as the metagame progresses, though time will tell. I think Sneasler is by far the best coaching mon since it matches the best into these fairy types thanks to dire claw or gunk shot and it's surprisingly respectable bulk with grassy seed and some proper eving, though I can see arguments for all 4 of the mons I put at the top of this list. All that said, Ban Kyurem Black lol

Flying Beagle · Dec 17, 2023

I have tried to click aurora veil on the same turn as terastallizing my Terapagos three times today, and in all of those games I still won because Terapagos is that broken. Please ban Terapagos. Even someone as stupid as me can win with it and that is unacceptable.
https://pokepast.es/7b21efc2d2f04a01

Actuarily · Dec 17, 2023

The first quickban slate post DLC2 release has been completed. Thanks to everyone for posting their thoughts on this thread. Based on feedback, the council decided to include three new additions on this slate, Terapagos, Kyurem-Black, and Deoxys-Attack.

JRL abstained from voting on this slate. Voting is as follows:

Terapagos: Currently DOU

Actuarily: Dubers, while it does require a Tera to really get going, it’s very easy to set up calm minds due to its great bulk and just fire off extremely strong spread attacks in Tera star storm. Checks like toxic/haze/phazing/taunt can stop it from setting up, but even then it can still click the powerful spread multiple times and do a ton of damage.

GenOne: DUbers. A number of compounding factors make it too strong for DOU, most notably being its sheer bulk and ability to deal big damage while completely ignoring the type chart. It reminds me of Zygarde Complete in that regard, and also Terapagos’s initial ability Tera Shell makes it even harder to take down. The one drawback to this mon is that it is dependent on Tera to be useful, but the tradeoff is worth it.

Nido-Rus: Dubers. This thing has just way too much bulk for how hard it hits and how effortless clicking the unresisted spread attack is. Can set up very easily and even without setup it deals pretty chunky damage. Since there are no resists, defensive counterplay occurs primarily through halting/removing its setup. It's hard to both manage doing that while also keeping something alive that can actually kill this thing with its insane bulk.

SMB: DOU, this slate is meant to be for pokemon that require immediate action and I don’t think that’s the case for Terapagos. We’ll see if it can stay in dou after one more week of meta development.

Qsns: Dubers. This is mildly worse than Zygarde complete. Tera Shell is an absurd ability to have beforehand, as it allows you to just beat otherwise checks like Iron Hands before you Tera. Committing your tera to this is a lot to demand but it makes up for it in spades. There are passive checks but as Act mentions, you can punish them (unlike Zyg-c) by just blowing them up with Tera Starstorm. Obscene movepool that lets it adapt around otherwise counters (I have seen Toxic and Stored Power for the mirror), good enough speed to pick its choice of speed control, and infinity stats.

Yoda2798: DUbers. Insane Pokemon with its absurd stats and unique abilities and Tera Starform, oh ,and the whole effectively getting to ignore typing thing as well. Other than Terapagos’ Speed only being okay, its one weakness is literally just wanting Tera for it, and while that’s usually a big commitment, spending Tera for a literally DUbers level Pokemon is well worth the price of admission. It’s not even bad if you do end up using Tera on something else, but with Tera is where this really fires on all cylinders and just completely unmatched by anything else. Obviously Terapagos’ high bulk leans naturally into setup, but it doesn’t even have to go for that to dish out large amounts of damage. This is exactly the type of Pokemon this slate was intended for.

Deoxys-Attack: Currently DOU

Actuarily: DOU. So far this hasn’t seemed overbearing. Obviously in the right circumstances it can sweep, but it really wants both LO and focus sash. Plenty of AV mons can tank hits and ko it back. There’s also plenty of viable counter play for e-force, and while it can hit darks with fighting moves, a well timed-Tera can shut down teams that rely on this to sweep. Alongside that, stuff like speed control, weather, focus sash mons, or boosted speed flutter/roaring moon can absolutely shut this down.

GenOne: DOU. I’ll continue to watch it with interest but haven’t seen enough evidence that it warrants a quickban. Expanding Force on Deo-A is insanely strong and is a bit unhealthy for teambuilding because of the strong necessity to include Dark-types and Psychic resists on every team. However, those are very plentiful and common in SV DOU. Furthermore, Deo-A’s reliance on Indeedee is a notable teambuilding limitation, meanwhile Rillaboom’s omnipresence in the metagame as well as dynamic speed control can make it tricky for Deo-A to find and maintain a good position where it can spam boosted Expanding Forces freely.

Nido-Rus: DOU, annoying but doesn't need immediate action. As usual it's the ultra HO glass cannon mon

SMB: DOU, this slate is meant to be for pokemon that require immediate action and I don’t think that’s the case for Deoxys. We’ll see if it can stay in dou after one more week of meta development.

Qsns: DOU. I’ve honestly been unimpressed with a lot of the Deoxys-A teams I’ve seen, as they’re being held back a lot by Indeedee and the omnipresence of both Rillaboom and Incineroar, as well as Terapagos deleting terrain and then deleting Deo. Could absolutely change my mind given more metagame development/banning Terapagos. It is probably unhealthy for the metagame but not a slate 1 QB.

Yoda2798: DOU. HO type stuff is always overhyped at the start of a new meta, and Deoxys-Attack was once even suspect tested in SM, which is wild after seeing where it ended up. Since then we have Rillaboom in place of the Tapus (slightly positive for it since fewer teams have a counteracting terrain, but it does get Grassy Glide), dynamic turn order with Prankster Tailwind (big negative), Booster Energy Speed exists (slight negative), there’s generally a bit more priority (slight negative), more good Dark-types (slight negative) and Terastalization exists (more negative than positive for it). Expanding Force is a big boon, but requires Indeedee-F to use it which is not that great anyways but also pales in comparison as a partner compared to Tapu Lele in my eyes. Unlike something a bit bulkier like Flutter Mane, Deoxys is hyper reliant on moving first and picking up KOs before it can be hit, and I’d say there’s more ways than ever to neutralise that; the addition of Expanding Force alone isn’t pushing this from okay to quickban worthy.

Kyurem-Black: Currently DOU

Actuarily: Dubers. I’m on the fence about this one, as there is a lot of stuff that pressures this as it comes in, especially hazards, and it really needs to get off a DD so you have time to chip it & bring in checks. Incin can knock it and then just pivot around it. It’s also quite a Tera hog. That being said though, there’s just sooo much stuff nowadays to support a set up sweeper, between number of fake out mons, follow me/other redirection, sinistcha, clear amulet, tera’ing out of a bad typing, coaching, etc. that can ruin just about every potential check that something with this amount of stats and perfect offensive coverage is just too much.

GenOne: DOU. I’m watching it with interest but haven’t yet seen enough evidence that it warrants a quickban. It feels very similar to how it performed in SS DOU, although it definitely benefits from Tera and Clear Amulet. But it still takes time to set up, can be easily chipped by hazards, and can be given a hard time by a number of common threats like Iron Hands, Flutter Mane and Incineroar (who can still click Knock Off before proceeding to spam Parting Shot and Intimidate). But as others have said, Kyurem might have a high ceiling of potential as people start building better teams around it.

Nido-Rus: DOU for now, I think this guy + coaching is very strong and scary but this might also be a matter of just not having set teambuilding archetype fundamentals yet.

SMB: DOU, this slate is meant to be for pokemon that require immediate action and I don’t think that’s the case for Kyurem. We’ll see if it can stay in dou after one more week of meta development.

Qsns: DOU, in the same boat as nido. Will probably be focused on this entirely for next slate but right now the teams are far from optimized and it is really easy to just knock clam with Incineroar and parting shot out or hit it in the face with Flutter Mane. The potential is terrifying but I have not seen it realized yet.

Yoda2798: DOU. Kyurem-Black has always been a bit of a sleeping giant (if you can even say that) with its gargantuan stats, and this generation provides it new tools to strengthen it in the likes of Clear Amulet and Terastalization. I do see the point about Knock Off for Amulet, but with your own Incineroar able to switch and prevent it with Fake Out, you can get enough space to boost to +3 and knock out Incineroar with Fusion Bolt before it connects (at least the ones going around right now without investing in Defence, but I can see Tera Electric picking up which guarantees even with max bulk). As Actuarily said there’s an abundance of great support tools at the moment; the biggest thing holding back Dragon Dance before was that you could Intimidate cycle it, regardless of any Fake Out/redirection in the partner slot, but now you can’t ignore that other slot and slow it down just by switching in, making it very easy for Kyurem-Black to run away with the game. However, this is the very first slate and therefore has a very high bar, so while I can totally see it being banned it can at least live another day, for now.

Magearna: Currently Dubers

Actuarily: Dubers. The ability still is too much for DOU, and it has excellent typing and Tera opportunities.

GenOne: Still DUbers. Ability makes it snowball way too fast in doubles formats.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, no change from last slate

SMB: Dubers, nothing has changed for it

Qsns: dubers it is still a magearna

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Urshifu: Currently Dubers

Actuarily: DOU. Fighting/Dark is not a great defensive typing right now, and there are a number of pokemon that can take single strike on. Most team styles are going to have pokemon that are good into this already (HO with whims/Torn, balance with flutter/Iron Hands), and strong neutral special attacks can just take it out. I think it’s ability to hit through protects & crit may have a place currently in the set-up heavy metagame without being overbearing.

GenOne: Still DUbers. Strong, breaks Protect, crits stuff, and hard to switch anything into.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, coaching would make this a lot more annoying

SMB: Dubers, the funny mechanic keeps making it too much for dou

Qsns: dubers. coaching urshifu woo

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Tatsugiri: Currently Dubers

Actuarily: Dubers, still super uncompetitive and very little to deal with it reliably.

GenOne: Still DUbers. +2 omniboosting Dondozo is really hard to take down. Tatsugiri…exists? after but sometimes can drop a draco on its way out.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, no change from last slate

SMB: Dou, needs a retest with the new additions, it’s very likely not good enough to be in Dubers. I’ve already talked about the commitment and downsides of using these 2 pokemon vs a team that has a gameplan against them.

Qsns: dubers. im reading a lot of the arguments in doucord and they still revolve around having very specific and warping counterplay for this interaction.

Yoda2798: DOU. See previous reasoning.

Annihilape: Currently Dubers

Actuarily: Dubers, it still is arguably the best set up mon and we already have plenty good to choose from.

GenOne: Still DUbers. Rage Fist has an insane damage ceiling and Annililape is hard to take down with its Bulk Up + Drain Punch set.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, coaching would make this even more frustrating

SMB: Dubers, the funny mechanic keeps making it too much for dou

Qsns: dubers monkey nothing changed from last slate

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Shadow Tag: Currently Dubers

Actuarily: Dubers, shadow tag with fake out is just too good, especially with all the big offensive threats we have.

GenOne: Still DUbers. Preventing something as fundamental as switching in a modern DOU format is way too strong paired with Gothitelle / Gothorita which have good utility and bulk too.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, no change from last slate

SMB: Dou, same reasons than in the first slate :shrug:

Qsns: dubers no change from last slate

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: Currently Dubers

Actuarily: Dubers. In the current metagame, it’s better than the single strike version, because of how well it pairs with something like Tornadus, and how rain can just power up its surging strikes to unbelievable levels.

GenOne: Still DUbers. Does what the other Urshifu does but has Water typing instead.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, more Dubers than before because this guy would definitely abuse coaching

SMB: Dubers, the funny mechanic keeps making it too much for dou

Qsns: dubers holy hell this would be beyond unbearable

Yoda2798: DOU. See previous reasoning.

Basculegion: Currently Dubers

Actuarily: Dubers, the checks added this DLC are Terapagos, which is being banned, and Raging Bolt, which has shown promise, but I am not sure if it’s going to impact the metagame enough to free this.

GenOne: Still DUbers. Last Respects has an insane damage ceiling combined with Adaptability and a good Attack stat.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, no change from last slate

SMB: Dou, to me it wasn’t banworthy before and some of the new additions, literally all the ones that are included in this slate and a couple more that are not included, check it.

Qsns: dubers no change from last slate

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Darkrai: Currently Dubers

Actuarily: Dubers, just too uncompetitive with turning the game into hoping Dark Voids miss or you get good sleep rng, and dark typing just lets it ignore prankster taunt.

GenOne: Still DUbers. Fast Dark Voids are broken and also double as chip damage.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, no change from last slate

SMB: Dubers, Dark void is almost as funny as tera

Qsns: dubers no change from last slate

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

The only change is that Terapagos is now banned from DOU! Tagging Kris to implement, thanks!

Feel free to discuss this vote or any thoughts on the metagame below!

Fritz420 · Dec 22, 2023

I wanted to share my general thoughts on both Deo-A and Kyurem-Black, two pokemon that are hot topics of discussion due to how powerful they can be. While I respect each individual pokemon's power I am uncertain if I would consider them ban worthy.

Deoxys-Attack
:Deoxys-Attack:

Deo-A is the defining force behind psyspam currently. A lot of arguments advocating for its ban highlight the absurd power behind combinations of psychic terrain, helping hand, tera, expanding force; or how teams are required to run multiple answers to psyspam. While those are good points I think Deo-A is not without its flaws. It has considerably low bulk and can die to just about anything. The common way people circumvent this is by running focus sash. However Stealth Rocks are incredibly good right now because they also match up well into Kyurem-Black. This can often lead to Deo-A playing without an item and if it chooses to run something else it runs the risk of dying to a stray attack. When it comes to building it feels like a necessity to have some counterplay to psyspam not because it is too strong but rather because it will be used. Comparing it to dpp dou, it's like building with rain in mind. It is an archetype that can sweep unprepared teams but having just a little counterplay makes that matchup a lot harder for the psyspam user. Going off of counterplay, if terrain is swapped Deo-A misses out on kills, and that opens it up to dying immediately. If it is up against something that resists a psychic move it has to click something else. Because Deo-A relies on getting quick kills if it is wasting time clicking its worst moves it again opens itself up to dying.

Kyurem-Black

Kyurem-Black is arguably the stronger of the two pokemon. It has really good offensive stats coupled with decent bulk. With clear amulet it can set up relatively free, and with ice and electric coverage it can practically hit everything neutrally. It even has the benefit of gaining a defense boost in snow. Its biggest drawbacks are the fact that it requires set up to be truly threatening as it doesn't have an incredible speed stat. The most common way to combat Kyurem-Black is to Intimidate it, but it can't happen until it has had clear amulet knocked off. If it has already gotten some amount of set up, it makes knocking off with Incineroar harder as it can take more than half the turn it's clicking Knock Off. Kyurem-Black doesn't appreciate rocks, and with gimmora being as good as it is kyurem will often have to fight against some combination of rocks and tspikes which really hurts set up. It also feels like it is forced to click Tera in a lot of matchups in order to set up, so while it isn't a complete Tera commitment it can often end up being one.

In conclusion, I personally would like to see both of these pokemon remain for the Doubles Invitational. Seeing how they perform with some of Smogon's finest could help sway public opinion, and then any following suspect tests could happen based on the general consensus. I apologize if any part of this post sounds naive, I am relatively knew. Feel free to discuss this with me in the discord if you want!

Actuarily · Dec 25, 2023

The second council slate post DLC2 has been conducted! Thanks to everyone who posted on this thread. As nothing else has been raised as a potential new element to vote on, there were no new elements included on this slate.

:Deoxys-Attack:

Deoxys-Attack: Currently DOU

Actuarily: DOU. While it has an advantage over other E-force sweepers in that it can still have power outside of E-terrain, the terrible bulk means that any speed control, scarf mon, or priority user out of terrain ko’s this. It requires either unprepared opposing teambuilding or good positioning in order to really sweep.

GenOne: DOU. Its non-existent bulk is a huge liability, even if its high offensive potential can be tempting. Deoxys-A’s momentum can easily be disrupted by opposing speed control, opposing mons with Booster Energy or Choice Scarf, priority attacks when enabled by Rillaboom, and even just bulky Dark-types and Assault Vest users. Deoxys-A also faces competition from other Expanding Force users like Iron Crown who have significantly better bulk while still offering reasonably strong offenses (a Life Orb-boosted Iron Crown is only slightly weaker than a Focus Sash Deoxys-A, for example).

JRL: DOU. It does massive damage with expamding force in psyquc terrain, but outside of that I think its power level is held back quite a bit. I also think there are better expanding users in the format since they have more bulk than deoxys or can simply have speed control moves. I think its niche will become less and less used as the metagame progresses.

Nido-Rus: DOU. The epitome of glass cannon, its lack of bulk means it needs to be picking up ohkos reliably as well as outspeeding its targets. Prankster tailwind, booster energy mons, rillaboom, and incineroar all being very common hurts this a lot. Still very usable and very scary with momentum, but there are too many ways to disrupt its momentum right now.

SMB: DOU. Good thing we had another week of meta development to see more teams and games with it. It either has to pick between taking more than one hit and not getting ohkos or getting ohkos and not taking more than one hit, sometimes it doesn’t even get these ohkos and needs to expend more resources like tera. Dynamic speed control often leaves it in a weird position, same with a rillaboom on the back. This is the meta with more priority attacks I've ever witnessed so it needs a lot of things to happen to really put work (terrain, speed control, getting 50-50s…). For now its place is DOU, we’ll see how it develops in the future.

Qsns: DOU. Genuinely more scared of the other Expanding Force users such as Iron Crown and still Armarouge due to their defensive profile, though the calcs this can put out is insane.

Yoda2798: DOU. As explained in my previous reasoning Deoxys-Attack is super reliant on outspeeding and picking up KOs, for which there are numerous good ways for teams to circumvent its Speed and take advantage of its frailty. Just like in the past, Deoxys seems a lot stronger on paper, looking at its calcs, but in practice as long as a team doesn’t neglect it in the builder, or position badly around it (e.g. throwing away all speed control before it goes down) then it’s much more manageable in practice.

Kyurem-Black: Currently DOU

Actuarily: Dubers. There’s just too much support for set up sweepers, so one with this much bulk, attack, and offensive coverage is just slightly too much for the metagame.

GenOne: DUbers. I’m on the fence as I would’ve liked to have seen more Kyurem-Black usage so far in the SV DOU DLC2 Kickoff Tour to base my opinions on, but from what I have seen in others’ games and my own, Kyurem-Black is insanely hard to stop once it gets some momentum going. We all know at this point what buffs Kyurem-Black got this generation: Clear Amulet to circumvent Intimidate, Tera to get better defensive typing, and a Defense buff when snow is active. But Kyurem-Black’s own buffs aside, I’ve also come to realize how many good supports are available for it this generation too, such as screens setters, Coaching users, redirectors and healers. All of these compounding factors lead to Kyurem-Black being a bit too strong for the meta, in my opinion. And at the end of the day, this is after all 700 BST Pokemon and it seems to me like it finally got enough buffs to compensate for the reasons we used to allow it in previous generations of DOU.

JRL: Dubers. incredible bulk, ability to set up with DD, but what makes kyurem worth banning is the clear amulet + tera. The simplest way to stop his offensive was to pivot the intimidation well, something that cannot be done now and if we also add that when we can do super effective damage the tera can save him from dying, it makes him unbalanced and conditions the build. Additionally, he has voltbeam for offensive coverage, which means that he barely has a counter in the tier defensively.

Nido-Rus: Dubers. I wanted to wait a bit to see if counterplay got better and/or easier, and while there certainly is counterplay, just too much needs to be invested in stopping this as opposed to how easy it is to set it up and make progress with it. I would want to see a retest down to DOU later in the future, but right now I think it’s just too good for DOU.

SMB: Dubers. Good thing we had another week of meta development to see more teams and games with it. The new additions in clear amulet and tera makes expending too many resources to any team in order to deal with it. Honestly I think that with just clear amulet it would be an excellent pokemon but probably not banworthy. Being able to pick its checks after tera, make it immune to burns, etc… is what pushes it to ubers. Another one!

Qsns: DUbers. Stats are too high and a tiny bit of support goes extremely long - Veil, Coaching, and the plethora of strong redirection we have can all cause this to win on the spot. Clam prevents Incineroar or Booster Flutter from stopping this immediately and at +1 it can just click attacks and 2hko the vast majority of the metagame.

Yoda2798: DOU. While I do think Kyurem-Black is probably too strong and should end up banned, not every ban needs to be a quickban, and I still think it’s a far cry from something like Terapagos. Like the only tour that’s been played with it is Kickoff, and even there I really don’t think Kyurem’s dominated in the way a Pokemon needs to be for it to be worthy of a quickban. In many games from there, Kyurem either doesn’t get a proper chance to set up, or does get a Dragon Dance off but just ends up trading. Now obviously the potential highs are still there, especially with the likes of Coaching support, and as I talked about in my previous vote, but from the games that have happened thus far in practice, I don’t believe there’s enough evidence to warrant a quickban, especially with there not being much else on the agenda besides Flutter Mane.

Terapagos: Currently Dubers.

Actuarily: Dubers, the bulk + great move in Tera star storm is too much, even if it is a Tera hog.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasoning as previous slate.

JRL: Dubers. This pokemon is insane, too much for DOU

Nido-Rus: Dubers, no change from last slate

SMB: Dubers, the correct thing was banning it on this slate instead of the previous one but it’s another pokemon that tera sends to ubers

Qsns: Dubers, same vote as last time.

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Magearna: Currently Dubers.

Actuarily: Dubers. The ability still is too much for DOU when combined with its excellent typing and solid bulk.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasoning as previous slate.

JRL: Dubers. Same explanation as my last post about this pokemon

Nido-Rus: Dubers, no change from last slate.

SMB: Dubers

Qsns: Dubers, magearna

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Urshifu-Single-Strike: Currently Dubers

Actuarily: DOU, I really think it’s worse off than Rapid-Strike as it doesn’t have a perfect pairing like rapid-strike does with Tornadus, and there’s enough fairies or fast attackers than can ohko this to be worth a look.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasoning as previous slate.

JRL: Dubers

Nido-Rus: Dubers, no change from last slate.

SMB: Dubers

Qsns: DUbers, no change.

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Tatsugiri: Currently Dubers

Actuarily: Dubers, although rn running anti-set up measures is very common, most of those don’t even work on Tatsugiri + Dozo (taunt/encore), and the ones that do like haze/clear smog are either rare or can be mitigated by Tera’s.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasoning as previous slate.

JRL: Dubers

Nido-Rus: Dubers, no change from last slate.

SMB: DOU

Qsns: Dubers, still uncompetitive

Yoda2798: DOU. See previous reasoning.

Annihilape: Currently Dubers

Actuarily: Dubers, it’s set up abilities when combined with Tera and all of the set up support currently available makes this too strong.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasoning as previous slate.

JRL: Dubers. No change

Nido-Rus: Dubers, no change from last slate.

SMB: Dubers

Qsns: Dubers, no change

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Shadow Tag: Currently Dubers

Actuarily: Dubers, shadow tag with fake out is too good.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasoning as previous slate.

JRL: Dubers. No change

Nido-Rus: Dubers, no change from last slate.

SMB: DOU

Qsns: Dubers, still too powerful

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: Currently Dubers

Actuarily: Dubers, this paired with Torn is still too much, and is much better suited for the metagame than single strike.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasoning as previous slate.

JRL: Dubers

Nido-Rus: Dubers, no change from last slate.

SMB: Dubers

Qsns: Dubers. Citing DOU for tatsugiri based on VGC results and then voting DOU for this is odd.

Yoda2798: DOU. See previous reasoning.

Basculegion: Currently Dubers.

Actuarily: Dubers, there hasn’t been much added this DLC which would change things other than Raging Bolt, which is doesn’t seem like enough.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasoning as previous slate.

JRL: Dubers

Nido-Rus: Dubers, no change from last slate.

SMB: DOU

Qsns: Dubers, same

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Darkrai: Currently Dubers

Actuarily: Dubers as fast dark voids are uncompetitive.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasoning as previous slate.

JRL: Dubers

Nido-Rus: Dubers, no change from last slate.

SMB: Dubers

Qsns: DUbers, its void

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

As a result, Kyurem-Black is banned from DOU! Tagging Kris to implement this change, thanks!!

Feel free to discuss this vote or any thoughts on the metagame below!

Mizuhime · Dec 29, 2023

Before I get into it, this post is purely just to spark discussion regarding the traditional norm held on Smogon and why I personally feel that it doesn't work as well for doubles tiering as it does for singles. So while reading this post, please keep that in mind for any points you would like to discuss in this thread with me and anyone who else who comments on it.

Traditionally on Smogon the word 'broken' is thrown around a lot and often used haphazardly. I've taken it upon myself to ask a few of the more accoladed players within doubles on what their definition is and came up with the following:

Broken is something that lacks sufficient counterplay (due to simply being too strong or having checks that are too bad into other metagame options)
That amplifies restrictions on teams in the builder (i.e must have x number of counters for this Pokemon or lose to it)
Overcentralizing to an unhealthy degree
Greatly increases the amount of RNG that may be included in the deciding factor of a battle
Warps gameplay or teambuilding around its presence / constrains the teambuilder in such a way to the extent that nearly every legal Pokemon is affected by it / Lacking the ability to sufficiently check things and creates a "matchup fishing" meta.

As you can see from the above, there are many definitions as to what makes a Pokemon 'Broken' in the traditional sense, and simply put we all aren't ever going to agree on a true definition of the word which is why we have suspect tests. Fine and dandy the suspect system is good and allows people to have their opinion. However, that's not why i'm making this post today. While reading over those varying definitions given by some of the top players in the tier, i'm sure we all generated some Pokemon in our head that fit the definition(s). Throughout the duration of SV we've had Pokemon that could fit nearly every single category listed above from Tatsugiri and Dozo lacking basic counter play, to Basculegion being extremely overcentalizing and warping team building around its mere presence in the tier, to Darkrai causing issues with Dark Void and RNG, to Magerna just being too damn strong they all fit into a definition of broken that differs from each other, even if only slightly. One thing all of those Pokemon have in common though, they're all offensive oriented Pokemon at the end of the day.

Typically, and historically, doubles has only viewed offensive offenders as being broken by the definitions with the extremely rare case of Jirachi being the LONE exception to that. Supportive and defensive options have typically found themselves being labelled as 'uncompetitive' rather than broken. Which brings me to the question i'm here to ask, why?

Time and time again throughout doubles a defensive pivot is introduced to the meta and instantly becomes a tier one Pokemon that warps the meta around it, forcing teams to bring dedicated counters to it while simultaneously nerfing anything that can't properly damage it, making it harder to innovate in the meta and branch out from using the top 20 Pokemon but these Pokemon are never defined as 'broken' because they don't simply click delete buttons like some of the other more notorious Pokemon. Despite that, these Pokemon will see drastic usage rates (around 35%+) while doing most of the bullet points listed above including heavily straining team building, warping the meta around them, and shutting down a majority of Pokemon with little effort, and one could argue that they even become over centralizing to unhealthy degree.

In Black and White, as well as X&Y it's Thundurus-I and Landorus-T, In Sun and Moon it's Incineroar, Landorus-T and Tapu-Fini, in Sword and Shield it's Incineroar, Tapu-Fini, and Rillaboom, and in Scarlet Violet our main culprit Incineroar is back and already has established itself as the only other Tier 1 Pokemon outside of the ever debated Pokemon Flutter Mane.

The other thing that these Pokemon are all guilty of doing without directly doing so is simply just enabling more offensive threats by simply existing. The following is a replay from admittedly day 1 of the post dlc tier, but shows how a good player can use Incin at such a high level of play it creates free attacking opportunities for heavy hitters such as the already questionable Flutter Mane and a Nasty Plot Gholdendo just by some simple positioning thanks to Intimidate and the ability to pivot against pretty much any Pokemon it wants to while also threatening Fake Out and damage via Knock Off or Flare Blitz.

qsns vs Lemurro

Now don't get me wrong, I am not sitting here calling Incineroar a 'broken' Pokemon necessarily, like I said we all have different definition of what that truly is. However, I do think Incineroar indirectly aligns with enough of what some of the top players would describe as "broken" to warrant being looked at under a closer lens eventually. I believe a lot of the Pokemon that act in ways like Incin, and have throughout the duration of doubles as a tier have always flown under the radar and the norm of what is considered 'broken' in the traditional sense while being some of the most dominating forces in the meta. Essentially my question is Why do these style of Pokemon never end up being tested despite always being within the top 5 Pokemon of a tier?

Actuarily · Jan 3, 2024

The final council qb slate of DLC2 has been concluded! We apologize in the delay in getting this out, it maybe wasn’t the best idea to have it scheduled on a holiday.

JRL abstained, and there were no tiering changes as a result, votes below:

:Deoxys-Attack:

Deoxys-Attack: Currently DOU

Actuarily: DOU. Has been used pretty minimally in recent rounds of kickoff or invitationals which I think is pretty evident it’s not broken. Teams are back to being prepared for psyspam, and it’s frailty makes it really reliant on getting off e-forces on Psy terrain. Non-terrain has seen some use, but that means it doesn’t have spread moves so it’s often forced into a trade at best.

GenOne: DOU. As I said before Deoxys-A’s inability to take a hit is a huge liability that often outweighs its high speed and offensive potential. Since these quickban slates started I haven’t really been impressed with Deoxys-A and think that in many cases it is outclassed by slower and weaker, but otherwise more reliable, Expanding Force users like Iron Crown and Necrozma. There’s also the option to run Deoxys-A without Psychic Terrain which is more reminiscent of how it was used in older gens, but yeah at the end of the day Deoxys-A is just a fragile glass cannon with a novelty factor that wears off quickly.

Nido-Rus: DOU, same reasoning as last slate. In current meta it just doesn't have enough power with sash but not running sash is too significant of a dropoff in staying capacity.

SMB: DOU, same reasoning as last slate. Kyub departure didn’t change anything for deoxys.

Qsns: DOU. My opinion on this in Psychic Terrain keeps dropping, I don’t think the archetype is strong with such a frail Pokemon as its main attacker over other options like Crown and Necrozma, and stacking these gets really tricky. Better on Chien-Pao teams than I thought but that’s far from broken.

Yoda2798: DOU. As time passes it becomes increasingly clear Deoxys-Attack is not broken, as expected. The few Deoxys being seen in Invitationals so far aren’t even being used with Psychic Terrain, meaning it isn’t benefitting from its biggest buff of Expanding Force and is just hurt by the other changes I mentioned previously like the existence of Booster Energy Speed users, dynamic turn order Prankster Tailwind, and a prominent amount of priority including but not limited to Grassy Glide Rillaboom.

Kyurem-Black: Currently DUbers

Actuarily: Dubers. There’s just too much support for set up sweepers, so one with this much bulk, attack, and offensive coverage is just slightly too much for the metagame. While the rise of some pokemon like Archaludon might give another potential check, fitting a steel type hasn’t really been the issue as much as being able to get around all the support that is easy to slot next to Kyu-B.

GenOne: DUbers. As mentioned on the previous slate, Clear Amulet and Tera circumvent many of Kyurem-B’s would-be counterplay options and there’s an abundance of really good support partners that can make it so Kyurem-B never dies as it sets up and sweeps.

Nido-Rus: DUbers, same reasoning as last slate. I want to test for getting this back down at some point but it's too significantly game turny with its base stats, all the available options to boost its stats, and its ability to now maintain those stats with clam.

SMB: Dubers, same reasoning as last slate, the funny mechanic pushes it to dubers.

Qsns: Dubers, has too many stats + Teras and circumvents a ton of its counterplay. Mows through anything slower than HO after a Dragon Dance, which is pretty easy to get going.

Yoda2798: DOU. Kyurem-Black deserved more time, see previous reasoning, it wasn’t dominating in practice in the tour games leading up to its ban.

Currently DUbers

Actuarily: Dubers, the bulk + great move in Tera star storm is too much, even if it is a Tera hog.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasons as the previous slates.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, same as last slates

SMB: Dubers

Qsns: Dubers, see previous

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Magearna: Currently DUbers

Actuarily: Dubers. The ability still is too much for DOU when combined with its excellent typing and solid bulk.

Genone: DUbers. Same reasons as the previous slates.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, same as before

SMB: Dubers

Qsns: Dubers, magearna

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Urshifu: Currently DUbers

Actuarily: Dubers, while what I voted before of [I really think it’s worse off than Rapid-Strike as it doesn’t have a perfect pairing like rapid-strike does with Tornadus, and there’s enough fairies or fast attackers than can ohko this to be worth a look.] still makes sense, I don’t think voting something down at the last slate is a good idea unless we’re almost certain it wouldn’t be problematic, because otherwise we’d likely have to immediately suspect.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasons as the previous slates.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, same as previous slates

SMB: Dubers

Qsns: Dubers, not particularly healthy for the format and whacks every non-Diancie TR setter for Torn offenses.

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Tatsugiri: Currently DUbers

Actuarily: Dubers, although rn running anti-set up measures is very common, most of those don’t even work on Tatsugiri + Dozo (taunt/encore), and the ones that do like haze/clear smog are either rare or can be mitigated by Tera’s.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasons as the previous slates.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, same as last slates

SMB: DOU

Qsns: Dubers, see previous

Yoda2798: DOU. See previous reasoning.

Annihilape: Currently DUbers

Actuarily: Dubers, it’s set up abilities when combined with Tera and all of the set up support currently available makes this too strong.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasons as the previous slates.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, same as previous slates

SMB: Dubers

Qsns: Dubers, see previous

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Shadow Tag: Currently DUbers

Actuarily: Dubers, shadow tag with fake out is too good.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasons as the previous slates.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, same as before

SMB: DOU

Qsns: Dubers, see previous

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: Currently DUbers

Actuarily: Dubers, this paired with Torn is still too much, and is much better suited for the metagame than single strike as it can have rain boosted Surging Strikes.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasoning as previous slate.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, same as before

SMB: Dubers

Qsns: Dubers, I love Torn offense weeee

Yoda2798: DOU. See previous reasoning.

Basculegion: Currently DUbers

Actuarily: Dubers, there hasn’t been much added this DLC which would change things other than Raging Bolt, which doesn’t seem like enough.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasons as the previous slates.

Nido-Rus: Dubers, same as before

SMB: DOU

Qsns: Dubers, Great Neck is only ok and Incineroar is far easier to chip down this gen thanks to a power level increase + STAB teras on things like Flutter for a Last Respects win.

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

Darkrai: Currently DUbers

Actuarily: Dubers as fast dark voids are uncompetitive.

GenOne: DUbers. Same reasons as the previous slates.

Nido-Rus: Dubers but dark void should be banned instead as a common sense uncompetitive ban rather than a ‘darkrai is broken’ ban

SMB: Dubers

Qsns: Dubers, dark void momento

Yoda2798: DUbers. See previous reasoning.

From this point on, we are looking for suspect tests to be our main method of tiering. So feel free to discuss below any pokemon you feel should be suspected, or any reactions to this round of votes!

ryo yamada2001 · Jan 7, 2024

INTRO
Doubles Ladder Tournament, or DLT for short, is one of the tier's most enduring yet polarizing tournaments: it is often praised for granting opportunities to newer players in a more familiar habitat than the daunting Smogon circuit, but that is commonly to the ire of tournament grinders who find themselves frustrated with the live endurance aspects of facing a variety of skill levels and gimmicks over a long span of games. As a tournament it was often forgettable; they just kinda happened. But this year we got a DLT room, which publicly broadcasts every high Elo DLT game and let people update leaderboards in real time. It grants spectators a high level of involvement, makes every game just a bit more special, shapes narratives, and creates a live-action excitement like never before. What I'd previously seen as a largely non-essential tournament became one of the most exciting weekends of spectating Pokemon in recent memory.

EARLY CYCLE 1
Ladder points are slowly, gradually, incrementally built by grinding dozens of games, with fresh accounts wading through the trenches of the 1600s to mid 1800s at best for the first few days. But as players rose and fell and rose and fell again, there emerged one clear winner. SHIMA (dlticihbst) was clear of even the most fervent ladder chasers, as he grinded away in the dying embers of NA time and in the early hours of EU. It looked like SHIMA was set for guaranteed qualification, as he posted an unprecedented qualifying high score of 1989 -- a feat nobody in DLT history had even come close to. Even accounting for decay, there was no way SHIMA would lose his top spot, let alone the tournament's first seed.

ICARUS
The story of Icarus is as such that in his hubris he flew too close to the sun, his wings melted, and he drowned into the sea he fell in.

See, SHIMA's performance wasn't just unprecedented for DLT, but also rare on the ladder in general. At over 150 games playing at a 90%+ GXE, tantalizingly close to 2000, he set a score that even some of the most dedicated ladder heroes of our generation were yet to achieve. And so he queued up.

First a loss to Iamaproplaya incurred -30: down to 1959. It should've been a sign of stopping, but three subsequent losses happened, accounting for a drop of 51 points, all the way down to 1908. At this point SHIMA had squandered the cycle's first seed and was on thin ice: the top 6 could shuffle with any win or loss. In an attempt to secure his qualifying position SHIMA kept queuing. And kept queueing. At 3pm EST he was untouchable. By 4pm he was out of the top 4. By 9pm he was no longer in the top 10. He had dropped all the way to 1729: it was a drop of 260 points.

In a sense it is a testament to SHIMA's gameness, risking it all for an even greater achievement. But it also proves how those who climb highest also have the furthest to fall. Rather than risking their already precarious positions, qualifying prospects often went onto alts to protect themselves and snipe others: ratpacker weaponized a variety of alts, whereas eragon tried his best to (but found himself stuck in the dubious trenches of the 1500s). It is also a testament to the mental aspect of DLT and possibly the newfound pressure of the room: laddering is much about managing tilt, various strategies, reading immediate ladder trends, and managing the mentality and pressure of live leaderboards and spectators who now turned every single game into a story unto its own. SHIMA certainly was not the only one to climb high but have it grasp out of reach: each of DaAwesomeDude1, Sunrose, eternal ocean, bagel, and tyo occupied, or were close to occupying, a qualifying spot for the first cycle, only to suffer untimely losses at the precipice. Godspeed you warriors.

THE ELEVENTH HOUR
After SHIMA's fall and other ladderers incapable of catching up there emerged a clear top 5: fangame10, KyleCole, eragon, ratpacker, and MADARAAAA were separated by only marginal differences. Like throughout all of the week, a single win or loss meant an entirely different playoffs picture, and we all got the opportunity to follow it live.

With the Europe-oriented deadline for Cycle 1, KyleCole went to bed 'early' and eragon followed after, with the respective Europeans already asleep and possibly waking at any moment in their mornings. fangame instead sat tight, hoping his 1912 would be enough to pull through without risking another game, but was worried about potential decay as it had hit eragon and MADARAAAA earlier. eragon woke up at 2:30am his time to evaluate the situation once more. ratpacker sat tight as he woke up, hoping the 5th rated MADARAAAA wouldn't leapfrog him right before the deadline: a cause for nervosity as he did end up logging on. KyleCole remained asnooze, and at 4am EST the decay hit his account. -3. Down to 1905.

With just 45 minutes remaining and MADARAAAA in-game against Sunrose, the situation was as follows:

MADARAAA ends up winning and climbs to 2nd, which drops ratpacker down to 5th. ratpacker is online and has to queue, but disaster strikes:

Thankfully, just 10 minutes later the server went back up again without a problem. ratpacker queues into a game and faces a difficult matchup against entrocefalo, forcing eragon's hand as a ratpacker win would push him out of the qualifying spots. It ended up being the right choice: ratpacker managed to win, and if eragon were to have queued any later he was well at risk of getting sniped by a ratpacker alt or missing the deadline. Thankfully for eragon, he ends up winning.

With just 20 minutes remaining all qualifying slots were shuffled and subsequently secured, pushing KyleCole out by only the thinnest of margins and decay: the difference between MADARAAAA or Kyle qualifying was a mere .235 Elo. It proved the tightest and most exciting cycle in DLT history, as all 4 qualifiers are in the top 5 highest qualifying scores in DLT history. It was a huge victory for the DLT room letting us spectate and document all of this in real-time. Thank you to everyone who participated this cycle for giving us some of the most exciting Pokemon in recent memory and good luck to all heroes who are to try and climb again. Remember to take breaks when you start to feel tilt setting on and don't bring Terracott y'all.

CYCLE 1 LADDER TRENDS
// or KLIFO
I asked bagel, who recently had his KLIFO + Glimmora team inducted in the Sample Teams thread, why this is such a powerful archetype in post-DLC2 DOU, and why he opted into Whimsicott over other options:

Several players chose other options for the 6th slot, such as eragon who opted into the more traditional and VGC-oriented Latias, which is exceptional at beating FWG-cores and proves a valuable Landorus check to navigate the mirror a bit more easily. xqiht preferred Amoonguss, likely for its additional defensive stability on the ladder and, similarly to Latias, being able to heal up teammates to eke out advantages.

SHIMAS TEAM

TERRACOTT
Covert Cloak Terrakion paired with a highly unpredictable Tera type has made it an excellent matchup fisher used to smash low ladder and offer an additional mode of victory on teams with strong bases. It's hard to point towards any one team in particular as it has fit on a variety of approaches, and it would arguably be a bit unfair as a lot of it comes down to the element of surprise. I've seen at least 5 different Tera types on Terrakion alone.

For more concrete examples, check out Top 128 Portland team sheets:
Rene Fuentes (6-3) with the 4 usual suspects making as solid a basis as they come
THATSAplusONE (6-3) with Scarf Ruination Chi-Yu, Iron Bundle, and a Trick Room mode if necessary

fangame10 Snow Screens
[redacted for until after kickoff finals vs jello]

MADARAAAA VGC Priority Spam
MADARAAAA opted into a VGC priority spam type team which is an archetype that is finding success at the Portland regional, with Alex Underhill and Collin Heier going 13-2 and 12-3 with this team respectively, albeit with Rillaboom over Raging Bolt. Raging Bolt is finding success in VGC as a notable Tornadus/Urshifu check, and as such MADARAAAA opted into a more stable option for the ladder. I consulted VGC expert zee on why this archetype has risen to prominence:

Thank you zee and thank you bagel!

xqiht · Jan 20, 2024

SUS Basculegion and Deoxys-A!!!!

Hello everyone!Here is xqiht.After experiencing about two months of DLC2 ladder, I would like to discuss one (or two) question: should Bascu really be banned? Should deoA receive ban?

Basculegion Here

In the previous home and dlc1 environments, Bascu, due to the powerful COMBA of Adaptability and Last Effects, combined with Choice Scarf. It makes it easy for him to become an excellent and successful post cleaner. In the past environment, people believed that using Pao to check it belonged to broker checking, and I completely agree. However, other factors such as "having to join Kingambit/Dragaput/Indeedee in the team to win Bascu" are a negative phenomenon. I believe that this phenomenon arises from the incompleteness and imbalance of the environment. After the opening of DLC2, there have been more and more constraints on BASCU in the environment. Not only Raging Bolt, but also Incin, DeoxysA from 438spe, and his paired Indeedee, among others. If your team doesn't have any of the Bascu checks mentioned above, don't worry. If you use Bascu as a post game scavenger, many times your opponents will be forced to play five against six. And he chose to queue up early on Bascu, instead giving you the opportunity to kill it.

As for the Bascu of other items, I personally believe that Scarf's Bascu is more controversial and skeptical, so I only wrote this one. If you would like to discuss Bascu for other items, please leave your opinionAs for the Bascu of other items, I personally believe that Scarf's Bascu is more controversial and skeptical, so I only wrote this one. If you would like to discuss Bascu for other items, please leave your opinion
The above is just my personal opinion, and I believe that neither free Bascu nor qb Bascu is appropriate. I think it requires more sus and discussion

Deoxys-Attack Here

DeoxysA has gained attention due to dlc2 winning the Expanding Force. I believe anyone who has encountered or used it can understand its power: powerful stab moves, extremely high spe and spa. There is also a fitting move that can combat evil factions, and when combined with Indeedee, it is not afraid of priority moves... Its advantages are unclear, but its disadvantages - that is, its poor hp def spd - can be saved with just one focus save. There are many replays about deoxysA, and by observing and comparing them, it can be seen that many teams (including samples) have almost no fighting power under the Psychic Terrain+Expanding Force. After putting in a lot of effort to kill Indeedee and Deo, you still can't win - Deo and other teammates. The basic way to effectively check deo is through litias and cresselia. Ghostengo may be considered half. This results in very few checks for deoxysA, and in many cases, you need two or more Pokemon to work together to defeat deo+indeedee. I think this is somewhat similar to Bascu. The difference is that Bascu is a broker check broker, while deo is two pokemon to kill. I don't think this is a good phenomenon

Similar to Bascu, I think sus and discussion are what DeoA needs more.

My English is not very good, I like to express myself correctly

qsns · Jan 23, 2024

Posting my responses to the survey for transparency owo

How much do you enjoy playing SV DOU right now?: 5!! I really enjoy the tier. There are a few small things but each game ends up being quite interesting and skillful, IMO.

How stable or balanced do you think SV DOU is right now? i,e., how often does the better player win?: 4! This is pretty good. I think there are slightly too many threats in the metagame to reasonably handle in the builder with enough confidence (a bajillion trick room variants, psyspam, chiyu flutter stuff, pao stuff, etc.) but in a relatively even matchup, the better player wins.

How do you feel about Flutter Mane?: Flutter Mane might be broken and I think it should be suspect tested. It's Flutter and my opinions have not changed much from the last metagame - if anything, it's harder to check with a wider variety of threats you need to cover. I am appreciating Flutter keeping a bunch of garbage like IDBP more honest but that's a big personal bias and it's probably still broken.

How do you feel about Deoxys-Attack?: Deoxys-A is broken and should be suspect tested. I think Psyspam is an extremely strong archetype and Deo-A pushes it over the edge. There's a lot of concessions you have to make in the builder without it, while Indeedee + Deo-A kinda just runs over the entire tier with basic helping hand support + a way to not lose to Tornadus. There are niche answers to the archetype that are Kind Of splashable? (Farig, AV Snarl Incin/a bunch of other mons) but they can often be overwhelmed with a few strong resisted hits anyway.

How do you feel about Incineroar?: Incineroar is not broken and should not be suspect tested. I think there's a lot of good points brought up in Mizu's post above but as the metagame's developed, I am trying to use Incineroar less and less because I think it's kinda bad. It's definitely warping but I would not consider it Tier 1, which I think a support mon has to hold to be considered for a suspect.

How do you feel about Whimsicott/Beat up?: Banning Whimsicott would be a pretty horrible mistake for actual metagame options and diversity.

To quote BKC, "as a result of bureaucracy and a slavish devotion to ruleset symmetry and other nonsense that forgoes the player experience for some sort of appreciation that the rules look pretty or something like that then [Whimsicott] has been banned entirely from [SV DOU] despite not really meriting this at all." This method of tiering is killing our options for actually tiering well and this collateral is pretty significant. I think Maushold can perform a similar role as a Beat Up user as we saw in the Annihilape metagame and I do not want to play the cat and mouse (haha) game of this when we can just ban a move that's already been banned before lol

That being said, this strategy is cringe and should probably not be in the tier with Archaludon also being a recipient of the boosts and punishing the most common FM user, Ogerpon-W. It requires pretty specific counterplay and can get goobed by a million different item/tera options.

How do you feel about Terastillization?: Terastillization is not broken and should not be suspect tested. Tera is a completely balanced and interesting mechanic and I think this would be a waste of time.

How do you feel about Kyurem-Black?: Kyurem-Black is broken and should not be suspect tested. Too many stats and the tier is struggling with too many threats, let's not bring another setup guy back.

How do you feel about Basculegion?: Same, except we've suspected this twice. We saw something like 7? Kingambits used in the week of SCL we had this freed. Too metagame warping.

How do you feel about Tatsugiri?: Tatsugiri is broken and should not be suspect tested. This got 2nd at a recent regional and VGC has the immense downsides of 1. open teamsheet, allowing you to prep your counterplay much more before the game begins 2. Urshifus, which genuinely pose a massive problem for the giant unkillable tank and 3. having to lock into the team for the entire tournament. Dondozo is extremely uncompetitive and much stronger as a matchup fish you can bring to one game in a best of three. Would be a mistake to free this for the integrity of the tier.

tl;dr i think the tier is generally good, suspect flutter and deo-a and go from there. envisioning a pretty good tier if we ban one or both of those and it's still pretty good if we don't.

tyo · Jan 25, 2024

like qsns, i also want to post my thoughts

How much do you enjoy playing SV DOU right now?: i can ladder for hours without getting bored so imo its a really fun format

How stable or balanced do you think SV DOU is right now? i,e., how often does the better player win?: 4 only because Deo A is too strong, otherwise I do think the better player wins more often than not though

How do you feel about Flutter Mane?: I've heard the term 'glue mon' before in regards to mons like incineroar and I think Flutter Mane is exactly that for this format. Flutter Mane is undoubtedly really strong but there's also a lot of things that beat it. Without Flutter Mane, stuff like Archaludon/Raging Bolt/Gouging Fire/etc becomes really strong and hard to cover in the builder. It's not broken imo and should not be suspect tested.

How do you feel about Deoxys-Attack?: It's broken and definitely should be suspect tested. It's essentially Flutter Mane on steroids in terms of the role of getting quick KOs/chipping stuff early or using it as a late game sweeper. Feels like using 75% power last respects every time it's on the field with terrain. Not to mention, it also gets fighting coverage to mess with dark types. Of course, there's ways to play around it but psyspam currently feels way too oppressive in the teambuilder.

How do you feel about Incineroar?: glue mon, should not be suspect tested. Personally, I think it's definitely tier 1 and probably the best mon in the format after Flutter Mane. I've been laddering with Incineroar Amoonguss balance over the past two days and I feel like that core gives me so much room to outplay my opponents. Also a big reason why I think the format is balanced (better player usually wins)

How do you feel about Whimsicott/Beat up?: if you lose to this, your team sucks. not broken do not suspect test

How do you feel about Terastillization?: it's completely fine

How do you feel about Kyurem-Black?: this guy is too strong, never bring him back in sv

How do you feel about Basculegion?: It really should be last respects that should be banned but since that's not the case, Basculegion should be stay banned. That move is way too strong and messes with team building

How do you feel about Tatsugiri?: agree with everything qsns said on this

tldr: ban deo-a and the format becomes S-tier. use incin amoonguss if you think you can outplay your opponent and you'll probably win

Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 9: Violet Hill (Terapagos & Kyurem-Black banned)

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