Metagame np: SV Ubers Stage 0 - Your Wildest Dreams

[Fc]

​

The Ubers Council has decided to suspect test Moody!

Reasoning

Following the first SV Ubers community survey, which was primarily focused on Moody in the current metagame, it became clear that something had to be done regarding it. Moody, primarily carried by Scovillain's release, has become arguably the most controversial part of the metagame. With the chance to snowball on purely random odds for the right stat boosts it can be a nightmare to see on team preview, and even worse to play against as it stalls to try and gain the right boosts to set up a sweep. This isn't even considering Glalie, a Pokemon that is naturally outclassed by Scovillain but since it also has Moody, it has potential to do similar feats with the right boosts. Due to the uncertainty of its potency without Scovillain, and Moody being the root issue, Moody is the target of this suspect test and not Scovillain. The Moody users are very linear, with Scovillain only ever running Substitute, Protect, Leech Seed, and Flamethrower, but with access to terastallization it can flip certain less favourable matchups around, using mainly Tera Steel and Tera Fairy. Tera Steel removes all its natural weaknesses while being a solid defensive typing and helping against Iron Bundle, while Tera Fairy is one of the best types overall in a metagame ruled by Miraidon, Koraidon, and Chien-Pao.

Scovillain with a single +2 speed boost behind a Substitute is incredibly difficult to take down, as it outspeeds every unboosted Pokemon in the tier and can abuse choice locked Pokemon or Pokemon that rely on Protosynthesis / Quark Drive to be faster by stalling using Substitute and Protect to just gain more boosts. This creates a dynamic where it can come in on more defensive Pokemon, set up a Substitute, and fish for the boosts with slow Substitutes and Protects if it hasn't gotten the Speed boost, or use Leech Seed and wear down any Pokemon if it has gotten the boosts to be faster. If properly boosted, unless there is a Pokemon on the team and healthy enough to Haze, phaze, or ignore the stat boosts, Scovillain becomes near unbeatable, which can make it one of the most dangerous Pokemon, and it does so without much player interaction on either side.

Given new tools in the generation, Scovillain certainly isn't without counterplay, though, even if it were to get very lucky. Skeledirge completely ignores both stat boosts and Substitute with Unaware and Torch Song, only being mildly annoyed by Leech Seed before forcing out even a highly boosted Scovillain. Similarly, Toxapex and another bulky pivot with recovery like Skeledirge or Garganacl can stall out Scovillain, as Haze removes its ability to break with Flamethrower over extended periods of time. Whirlwind Ting-Lu is also very strong against Scovillain in faster games, especially since it sets entry hazards that are both very commonly stacked with other Pokemon like Great Tusk or Toxapex, and are also hard to remove thanks to Gholdengo and the many powerful threats like Miraidon that can take advantage of Defog.

Suspect Test Information

• The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice. For reference, there's a minimum games required table posted below.
• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be UBMY . For example, I might sign up with the ladder account UBMY Fc.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitation when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular Ubers ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• We will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a moderator. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will go on for just under two weeks, lasting until Friday, March 17th, 11:59 PM GMT -4, and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

Minimum Games Required Table

GXE	Minimum Games Required
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, more so than the average Ubers forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

Suspect Test Rules

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• No discussion on the suspect process;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the Ubers Council and the Ubers Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the Ubers Council, an Ubers Tier Leader (myself or Aberforth), or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

The test will run until Friday, March 17th, 11:59 PM GMT -4. In order to ban Moody, a 66.6% supermajority will be required. If you meet the requirements then post a screenshot in the voting requirements thread - but please take note of the criteria outlined there when you do in order to be eligible!

Current Ubers Council

Aberforth
Fc
Fogbound Lake
Manaphy
Minority
SiTuM
steelskitty
TJ

Tagging Kris and Marty to announce this on the Ubers ladder, thank you guys.

 

[Minority]

Posting as a member of the Ubers Council:

When deciding if Moody is something that should be in our tier we should first ask ourselves if it adds any meaningful decision-making to the game. Over a decade of tiering history has shown that the consensus on Moody is one of being dependent upon randomness for functionality (OHKO, Evasion, Swagger, Sleep) and of being a fringe game element that holds contentious matchups with linear gameplay (Baton Pass, Trapping, Sleep). With such a history one must ask if Moody in SV Ubers is that different from its other claused game elements. If Moody is different the question becomes one of cost-benefit; how much interesting choice does Moody bring to the game in teambuilding and gameplay in spite of its randomness. I personally don't see Moody substantially different from tactics such as Evasion or Swagger in the way they rely upon randomness to occasionally overrun sound builds and plays, or tactics such as Baton Pass which rely upon niche polarizing matchups and result in linear trivial gameplay.

I voted to quickban Moody and would vote to ban Moody in this suspect test.

 

[Nikebeamz]

Although I am still conflicted whether moody should be banned, I would like to note that on the one hand moody scovilian sees little use because its most effective when getting the +2 speed boost right away which is not likely to happen. Is that really a valid argument? Not really I suppose. I think a more valid argument is that scovilian can really struggle against the box legends.

Koraidon runs flame charge which will statistically enable it to outspeed scovilian. Miradon can use agility during protect spam but I think it might have a much harder time dealing with scovilian.

An issue if your counterplay to scovilian is a whirlwinder line ting-lu or hippo, you still have to worry about scovilian being the last mon alive. This happened to me in one of my suspect test matches but luckily for me my opponent was terra steel.

Personally, I dont have an issue with rng related mechanics like kings rock, but I know the precedent here nowadays is to ban strategies that use rng. So I would assume moody gets banned for that reason even if it might not be viable other than for a heavy matchup fish or a cheese strat in the current ubers metagame.

 

[AlexIGuessNotFound]

I thought there would be no action taken in Ubers until home was released but... Moody is uncompetitive no matter how you look at it.

 

[OreoSpeedruns]

About time this happened.

What I define as uncompetitive is an aspect of the game that aims to completely remove skill from the game into pure matchup dependence or just stupid luck, and Moody falls into the latter. Now, Moody isn’t necessarily broken of course, but just like other clauses like Evasion and Swagger Clause, all Moody does is replace the emphasis in games from skill with luck thrown in to purely luck, where the Moody Pokémon, in most cases Scovillain, is just PRAYING to get lucky with the Moody stat boosts, while the Pokémon staring down the Moody Pokémon is similarly praying that the Moody Pokémon doesn’t get lucky with the Moody stat boosts.

There’s a damn reason Moody has been reviled for as long as it has existed. I will most definitely be voting BAN on Moody, and would happily do it a million times over.

edit: just played against it in my reqs run-through. I hate it even more now. PLEASE BAN THIS ABILITY
the game: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubers-1817367566-jni1ptj9sii4a2zd33l82pfpbv6df5ipw

 

[Dreadfury]

I don't have a huge stake in SV Ubers, but I think Moody is just inherently uncompetitive at its core. It's not broken, or even remotely close to broken, but it's just an inherently unfun, dice-rolly, inconsistent, cheesy matchup fish ability that usually won't do what you want it to do but becomes unreasonable as soon as the Moody user (in this case, Scovillain) decides it wants to get a Speed boost.

But most importantly, I just think that Moody as a whole has absolutely no place in any official Smogon tier. It encourages degenerate playstyles to utilize it, and the counterplay to it is fine and dandy but isn't going to be seen on every team. It's unfun to play against, takes nearly no skill from the player utilizing it to potentially perform well with (since it's just completely random from start to finish), and just makes the tier worse by existing.

Given this, I just think Moody should be BANNED. I'm actually surprised it wasn't outright quickbanned since I'm pretty sure nobody would miss it if it just vanished overnight and not a single person would lose sleep over it, but the Council elected it be suspect tested instead and that's still a respectable decision at the end of the day. But if I were to get suspect reqs (unlikely, since if I do any suspect stuff I might prioritize OU's suspect test at present) I'd vote ban in a heartbeat.

There's a good reason why Moody is absolutely despised by the playerbase as a whole. It's stupid, it's dumb, and it's just uncompetitive inconsistent degenerate cheesy matchup-fishing bullshit that the tier would be objectively better without.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I don’t have much to add to the discussion, but it’s honestly surprising that we haven’t quickbanned Moody. In any metagame it’s been legal in (barring Anything Goes since that’s literally a basic sandbox meta), Moody has quickly shown itself to be uncompetitive. I strongly believe that an element of play that is inherently uncompetitive should be quickbanned unless it is inextricably a part of the game. We should look at past precedent, and see just how successful we were without Moody in any tiers.

 

[Taka]

I have a tendency to run Ting-Lu and Scarf Koraidon on a lot of my teams, so my teams are usually safe against Moody abusers. But I have a hard time envisioning Balance and Stall teams taking on Scovillain or Glalie in general. For one, Clodsire typically runs Water Absorb to not abused by Dracos from Mirai and Scarf Overheat from Chi-Yu, so its not really able to just stall out Scovillain that easily. Haze is not an awful option on it, but Clodsire is already strapped for slots, and Whirlwind Ting-Lu does not have the longevity to take on Scovillain forever. With the right set of buffs, Scovillain can generally take on whatever you bring to the table. Yes, there is counterplay, for sure. Yes, it isn't a very good Pokemon and is just fishing. That said, it does not bring anything of value to the tier (you really bouta bring moody offense to upl?) and just adds a layer of annoyance without providing any offensive/defensive utility.


Its inherently an uncompetitive strategy and doesn't benefit the relatively skill-based metagame that Ubers is trying to become.

Ban

(Also ban goth!!!)

 

[Siddakid]

In my opinion, the fact that Moody wasn’t suspected sooner just generally surprises me. I’m not exactly sure how long it’s been allowed in Ubers for (I came onto the competitive scene around the time the ORAS ladders were released) and I generally hated playing against any team that had even the slightest possibility of a Moody abuser there. In my mind, the simple fact that a random stat can be doubled is honestly absurd because of the lack of consistency. When I say consistency, what I’m getting at is that one game Moody could boost Evasion by 2 then the next time, it’s Attack or smth. It’s never consistent unlike other abilities like Speed Boost or Stamina.

My main reasons for wanting a ban on Moody is because it essentially is a lottery on what stats you get boosted and it should never be that way. If I’m playing someone using a mon with Moody, I don’t want to be praying to the lord that my opponent doesn’t get some bullshit ass stat boost because they got lucky with it. There’s a reason many of the top players absolutely hate it without a doubt. It’s uncompetitive and mons such as Glalie, who already have semi decent stats across the board (in my opinion though) decide when they get a SpA boost or a Speed boost which would take my Primal Groudon (ik this is SV, but allow my mention of previous Gen Ubers), which happens to one shot Glalie with Stone Edge or Fire Punch, from sinking it 10 times out of 10, to missing moves like Fire Punch which have perfect accuracy and getting rekt by Frost Breath for example. Overall, I firmly believe that Moody should be banned as a whole purely because of the fact that it encourages cheesy matchup bullshit that otherwise would not have existed

Edit: Happen to come across someone using Moody Scovillan while I was finishing my voting reqs and I hated every second of its presence in the battle. Pls ban this asap
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubers-1817436711

 

[Fc]

I've said this before in the metagame discussion thread, but I will be voting do not ban on Moody. When it comes to luck based strategies, the natural response is to want to just be rid of them because it takes away some player interaction, but personally I like to draw a line somewhere that there's reasonable counterplay to something luck based, or something luck based just being kinda bad. Obviously not a 1-1 comparison since it's much better in this gen but Moody was unbanned and never even looked at in SS, mainly because it's locked onto terrible Pokemon who couldn't thrive in the metagame. Scovillain is a step up definitely, but it's still a mon with middling stats and a bad typing that has a lot of roadblocks to success. Hazards are everywhere, the power level of the tier is so high, and offensive teams are as strong as ever, so setting up against anything that isn't super defensive can be quite difficult if it's even possible at all. If it can set up, a lot of defensive teams are prepared for it as well, with common picks like Toxapex, Skeledirge, and Unaware Pokemon + pivots like Clodsire + Alomomola all being fairly present on the fatter teams this tier has to offer.

I don't think it's unreasonable to outplay a Scovillain before it gets the immense boosts, and without evasion boosts I just don't see it being that oppressive. I do sympathize with the ban side, though, since there's obvious luck elements to Moody, but personally I just don't think it's at the point where it's something that needs to go. The release of Walking Wake making offensive sun teams even stronger wasn't kind to it, and I can't imagine future drops / metagames that increase the power even further will be either (minor theorymonning but the point is there, Scovillain just can't keep up sometimes and new Pokemon like Walking Wake almost exclusively hurt it). This gen is so highly powercrept with tera, insanely strong legendaries, and even on the defensive side a collection of the best Unaware users we've ever had, so I think Scovillain definitely is reasonable enough to stay in the metagame, at least for the forseeable future. My philosophy is to vote to minimize bans where possible, especially if the viability of a Pokemon would disappear because of it like either banning the Pokemon or its defining feature, just to try and preserve the tier in its most balanced state between low number of bans and a manageable power level. I know not everyone sees it like that and that's understandable, tiering philosophy gets messy a lot of the time, but that's my personal opinion on it.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I've said this before in the metagame discussion thread, but I will be voting do not ban on Moody. When it comes to luck based strategies, the natural response is to want to just be rid of them because it takes away some player interaction, but personally I like to draw a line somewhere that there's reasonable counterplay to something luck based, or something luck based just being kinda bad. Obviously not a 1-1 comparison since it's much better in this gen but Moody was unbanned and never even looked at in SS, mainly because it's locked onto terrible Pokemon who couldn't thrive in the metagame. Scovillain is a step up definitely, but it's still a mon with middling stats and a bad typing that has a lot of roadblocks to success. Hazards are everywhere, the power level of the tier is so high, and offensive teams are as strong as ever, so setting up against anything that isn't super defensive can be quite difficult if it's even possible at all. If it can set up, a lot of defensive teams are prepared for it as well, with common picks like Toxapex, Skeledirge, and Unaware Pokemon + pivots like Clodsire + Alomomola all being fairly present on the fatter teams this tier has to offer.

I don't think it's unreasonable to outplay a Scovillain before it gets the immense boosts, and without evasion boosts I just don't see it being that oppressive. I do sympathize with the ban side, though, since there's obvious luck elements to Moody, but personally I just don't think it's at the point where it's something that needs to go. The release of Walking Wake making offensive sun teams even stronger wasn't kind to it, and I can't imagine future drops / metagames that increase the power even further will be either (minor theorymonning but the point is there, Scovillain just can't keep up sometimes and new Pokemon like Walking Wake almost exclusively hurt it). This gen is so highly powercrept with tera, insanely strong legendaries, and even on the defensive side a collection of the best Unaware users we've ever had, so I think Scovillain definitely is reasonable enough to stay in the metagame, at least for the forseeable future. My philosophy is to vote to minimize bans where possible, especially if the viability of a Pokemon would disappear because of it like either banning the Pokemon or its defining feature, just to try and preserve the tier in its most balanced state between low number of bans and a manageable power level. I know not everyone sees it like that and that's understandable, tiering philosophy gets messy a lot of the time, but that's my personal opinion on it.

While I do respect your opinion on this matter, I’d like to bring up something that every pro-ban voter has discussed: uncompetitiveness. Sure, Moody may not be inherently broken, but it takes the element of skill out of the players’ hands and essentially makes it a gambling game. And while I do agree with the policy of “minimize bans”, something that is uncompetitive should be banned according to tiering policy. You do bring up outplaying Moody, but that is a moot point considering your counterplay is limited to Clodsire, Ting-Lu and Toxapex and soft checks that can’t stand up to Scovillain after it has boosted. Moody’s luck based nature basically eliminates all of these counters. Even in the background information section of the suspect testing vote, you stated “If properly boosted, unless there is a Pokemon on the team and healthy enough to Haze, phaze, or ignore the stat boosts, Scovillain becomes near unbeatable, which can make it one of the most dangerous Pokemon, and it does so without much player interaction on either side.” If that is the crux of the matter, I don’t see why Moody should be left available for any longer than this.

 

[Bohrier]

Moody is an inherently broken strategy. Ala Baton Pass, you either have the counter or ya don't. And here, the counters are basically limited to just clodsire and ting lu. Moody does not test your skill, but rather your luck. Moody can get a mon superboosted with little to no player interaction and unless there's a hazer/unaware user, you're dead meat. If that is the case, then I don't understand why moody should be allowed in the tier. It does not add anything to the tier that can be considered remotely healthy

 

[11 25 19]

currently on my 2nd attempt at 29/4, 79.3% gxe with (how do i tag users lol) mcgrrr's double trouble BO, which i find amazing to play and it seems to be working really well against the majority of the (lower) ladder. this is the first time i've been grinding for reqs, and i also just faced moody for the first time ever. the opponent's team was: tera fire ---- and something else i can't remember.
while i feel like it wasn't very oppressive to play against, i'll probably vote ban if i make reqs, since i find moody, as many previous posts describe, to be entirely uncompetitive and something that i would rather not ruin the games it shows up in.

 

[Royal1604]

Just a short post on my opinion since people already explained why or why not it should be banned:
I agree that moody is currently weaker than it was back in time, and it started in gen 8, especially because Moody users are just ridiculous. So yeah Fc you're right, moody is more outplayable nowadays than in SM for example.

My concern is more about how random this strat is. I personnaly think that a strategy based on pure luck and randomness should not be allowed in an official meta. I would have vote for a quickban of Moody, and i think a suspect test is unnecessary, considering that some moody users could come back with home and DLC's (hello smeargle).
I'll vote BAN (if i get the Reqs cause i'm washed)

 

[Guy with annoying name]

The thing about moody is not that it's unstoppable, and in fact there's several ways of dealing with it. Problem is though, said methods are never consistent. Here's why:

Moody can turn a Pokemon into something which outspeeds and OHKOs everything, something which can take even the strongest attacks in the game, or a combination of both. This is further boosted by protect + leech seed for scovillain, as it allows it to get as many boosts as possible, and gives it many opportunities to get rid of stat debuffs. Yes, its possible you get useless staff buffs and terrible stat decreases (e.g. attack boosts, which neither glaile or scovillain use, alongside decreased bulk or decreased speed), but the thing is, for that to happen, you have to get lucky, or in the case of the moody user, unlucky. This also makes it incredibly difficult to have a way of consistently defeating it. Yes, there's Clodsire, who can badly poison it and unaware means it doesn't have to deal with extra special attacks, but protect + substitute + leftovers + leech seed combined with recover being nerfed to only have 8 PP instead of 16 this gen means it can be a brutal struggle to outlast it, and Glaile hits with super effective ice beams. There's also Ting-Lu, who can take a hit and whirlwind away the moody user, but if if had to switch in, and Scovillain was to get a special attack boost, then it can hit with a strong flamethrower, and unlike Clodsire, it doesn't have access to recover, so it is susceptible to repeated damage. Same issue for Glaile: It can hit with a super effective ice beam, and if it was to have special attack boosted, then yeah Ting-Lu won't make it out without marks. Toxapex seems great due to toxic, but it has loads of difficulty dealing with substitute and the leftovers + leech seed from Scovillain and freeze dry from Glaile and cannot just PP stall due to recover being nerfed, and while Skeledirge can be great for Glaile, it won't get much done with Scovillain. Anything else, you just gotta prey to the RNG gods that they don't get lucky with stat boosts. If you want consistent counterplay to moody, you have to go very out of your way to do so, like for instance, unaware haze dondozo. Problem with going very out of your way to stop Moody though, is that if the opponent does not have moody, and trust me you're more likely not to deal with moody than you are to deal with it, then you're essentially playing with a smaller toolkit than them.

To basically summarize it, moody can only be dealt with through sheer dumb luck, and it takes any skill out of the equation, so for this reason I'll happily vote ban once voting time happens since I was able to get reqs and all.

 

[Quick top 500 tho]

Just here to drop my little 5¢ I know people say moody is uncompetitive or extremely rng reliant but at the end of the day I feel as though people sometimes don't want to learn how to adapt to whatever tough strategy they can't get pass. moody isn't exactly unbeatable and no you don't have to run clod or dozo all the time, I'm surprised people are sleeping on perish scream tail that thing stops almost all set up sweepers one way or another and you aren't at a disadvantage running it. I hail from ag where the most broken and uncompetitive stuff reign Supreme and I can tell you right now if stuff like moody was the end all be all it would be on almost every competitive team and winning tours left and right but it's not. cause nobody is going to risk not running actually viable teams for a cheese win here or there not to mention the match-up fish, honestly I know I'm in the minority but I would be voting No Ban for the sole purpose that out of my 39 games during my reqs I've lost to the mechanic maybe once.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Just here to drop my little 5¢ I know people say moody is uncompetitive or extremely rng reliant but at the end of the day I feel as though people sometimes don't want to learn how to adapt to whatever tough strategy they can't get pass. moody isn't exactly unbeatable and no you don't have to run clod or dozo all the time, I'm surprised people are sleeping on perish scream tail that thing stops almost all set up sweepers one way or another and you aren't at a disadvantage running it. I hail from ag where the most broken and uncompetitive stuff reign Supreme and I can tell you right now if stuff like moody was the end all be all it would be on almost every competitive team and winning tours left and right but it's not. cause nobody is going to risk not running actually viable teams for a cheese win here or there not to mention the match-up fish, honestly I know I'm in the minority but I would be voting No Ban for the sole purpose that out of my 39 games during my reqs I've lost to the mechanic maybe once.

One misconception I'd like to clear up is that Moody is not being looked at as “broken”; rather, it is being suspected as “uncompetitive”. To any others who would like to voice their opinion on Moody: as a debate student, a topic with this level of randomness cannot be quantified using empirical data due to the sheer amount of unreliability that there is. Sure, you may win 5/6 times and proclaim that the strategy is bad, but luck likely played into most of those 5 wins.

Anyways, time to break down your points and why they don't quite work to defend Moody.

I know people say moody is uncompetitive or extremely rng reliant but at the end of the day I feel as though people sometimes don't want to learn how to adapt to whatever tough strategy they can't get pass.

But in the end, what sort of adaptations can the playerbase make to simultaneously defend themselves against Moody cheese while staying stable against the high threat level of Ubers? Sure, Clodsire is B+ and Dondozo is B on the VR, but besides those two (and maybe Scream Tail, although Perish Song is unreliable on an already somewhat precarious 'mon), players are putting themselves at a disadvantage to answer this singular strategy.

I hail from ag where the most broken and uncompetitive stuff reign Supreme and I can tell you right now if stuff like moody was the end all be all it would be on almost every competitive team and winning tours left and right but it's not.

...okay? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at when you say "if stuff like Moody was the end all be all".

cause nobody is going to risk not running actually viable teams for a cheese win here or there not to mention the match-up fish

Again, just because people won't run Moody doesn't serve as a reason to not ban it. I'd say that this is actually a reason to ban it, since not many will be affected by this and we get rid of a completely luck-based strategy.

but I would be voting No Ban for the sole purpose that out of my 39 games during my reqs I've lost to the mechanic maybe once.

As I already stated in my opening, Moody is not being suspected since it is broken. It is being suspected due to its inherently uncompetitive nature. You losing to Moody even once was likely not in your control; your opponent probably got lucky with the boosts they got and managed to wear you down enough to where they could sweep.

 

[Lord Pxperto]

While I do respect your opinion on this matter, I’d like to bring up something that every pro-ban voter has discussed: uncompetitiveness. Sure, Moody may not be inherently broken, but it takes the element of skill out of the players’ hands and essentially makes it a gambling game. And while I do agree with the policy of “minimize bans”, something that is uncompetitive should be banned according to tiering policy. You do bring up outplaying Moody, but that is a moot point considering your counterplay is limited to Clodsire, Ting-Lu and Toxapex and soft checks that can’t stand up to Scovillain after it has boosted. Moody’s luck based nature basically eliminates all of these counters. Even in the background information section of the suspect testing vote, you stated “If properly boosted, unless there is a Pokemon on the team and healthy enough to Haze, phaze, or ignore the stat boosts, Scovillain becomes near unbeatable, which can make it one of the most dangerous Pokemon, and it does so without much player interaction on either side.” If that is the crux of the matter, I don’t see why Moody should be left available for any longer than this.

Wasnt the whole point of ubers banning uncompetitive things fot OU?

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Wasnt the whole point of ubers banning uncompetitive things fot OU?

The whole point of Ubers was to ban the broken things from OU.

 

[Lord Pxperto]

The whole point of Ubers was to ban the broken things from OU.

Well thats all, why banning moody then?

 

[Monai]

ban it ban it ban it ban it ban it ban it ban it van ti ban it

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

Just here to drop my little 5¢ I know people say moody is uncompetitive or extremely rng reliant but at the end of the day I feel as though people sometimes don't want to learn how to adapt to whatever tough strategy they can't get pass. moody isn't exactly unbeatable and no you don't have to run clod or dozo all the time, I'm surprised people are sleeping on perish scream tail that thing stops almost all set up sweepers one way or another and you aren't at a disadvantage running it. I hail from ag where the most broken and uncompetitive stuff reign Supreme and I can tell you right now if stuff like moody was the end all be all it would be on almost every competitive team and winning tours left and right but it's not. cause nobody is going to risk not running actually viable teams for a cheese win here or there not to mention the match-up fish, honestly I know I'm in the minority but I would be voting No Ban for the sole purpose that out of my 39 games during my reqs I've lost to the mechanic maybe once.

The problem here is not being broken, but rather, being uncompetitive. And long story short, I'd say Moody is uncompetitive in spades. It doesn't take any skill to spam Sub and Protect until you get boosted enough to sweep the entire opposing team. While it was nerfed in Sword and Shield by removing the chance to boost evasion (or accuracy, though evasion was what peeps took issue with), that also increases the chance Moody hits a key stat.

Well thats all, why banning moody then?

Because long story short, it's uncompetitive as fuck. It takes zero skill to spam sub and protect until you get enough boosts that you aren't threatened by anything. Scovillain in particular also has Leech Seed to make it even harder to kill.

 

[Lord Pxperto]

The problem here is not being broken, but rather, being uncompetitive. And long story short, I'd say Moody is uncompetitive in spades. It doesn't take any skill to spam Sub and Protect until you get boosted enough to sweep the entire opposing team. While it was nerfed in Sword and Shield by removing the chance to boost evasion (or accuracy, though evasion was what peeps took issue with), that also increases the chance Moody hits a key stat.


Because long story short, it's uncompetitive as fuck. It takes zero skill to spam sub and protect until you get enough boosts that you aren't threatened by anything. Scovillain in particular also has Leech Seed to make it even harder to kill.

well, then you are telling me that the goofy aah ability is as uncompetitive as mega raykuaza?

 

[Lord Pxperto]

like i see some checks, haze dondozo, skeledirge, any roar user, taunt users.

 

[11 25 19]

well, then you are telling me that the goofy aah ability is as uncompetitive as mega raykuaza?

i mean... yeah? obviously not in the same way, since mray was an absurdly broken mon and moody exclusively relies on luck, and is not as meta-warping… but uncompetitive is a broad umbrella term, which mray and moody both fall under, albeit for very different reasons.

Wasnt the whole point of ubers banning uncompetitive things fot OU?

emphasis on was. that argument became pretty much null once anything goes was introduced.

i feel like it's fair to introduce balancing changes to a tier when it has reached a certain popularity, which ubers obviously has, so i don't see any reason not to get rid of uncompetitive strategies, whether they are purely luck-based or just plain broken. there would still be ways to play ubers with moody in custom games if it is banned (and i don't think anything goes is too wildly different from ubers atm), but i don't see why it should stick around on the ladder and in tournament games if a majority of the player base agrees that it shouldn't be part of the tier.