np: SV UU Stage 2 - Atomic Karate

[pomfpomfpluff]

The Drops

Ok so I wanted to atleast play the tier a bit before forming my own opinion on each of the drops we got at the start of February since at first it seemed pretty easy to just go "Iron Hands is broken because it never dies and 2hkos everything" without actually doing some testing beforehand. Therefore I made two alts so that I could mess around a bit while getting a decent point of view of how the drops have affected the overall metagame, I used these accounts to form the opinions stated underneath after ~50 games played with all alts combined.

But first some background info. One of these accounts was dedicated to a stall, which also happens to be the account I got most of my games from and the other was dedicated solely to sun since I saw one Sun user through the course of my Stall session and said player ended up disconnecting during team preview. Curiously enough I've only seen like 1 Pawmot throughout my entire play session but I don't think many would argue that Pawmot is the biggest issue with the tier right now so I'll just focus on the two drops people are talking about and talk a bit about Pawmot at the end.

Iron Hands



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Alright so to start things off let's go into the mon that everyone seems to have on their radar at the moment, Iron Hands. When I first started playing the tier after the drops occured I never really found this mon to be overly problematic and that's saying something given that I was using a stall team that was super weak to it. After this little excursion however I honestly just don't wanna touch the tier with another stall team until this stupid mon gets banned because it legitemately forces any defensive team to run at minimum one hard counter to it, that's how opressive it is against defense specifically.

But of course dumpstering defence isn't grounds for a mon being broken, after all we have Armarouge in the tier which has multiple different sets that can dumpster multiple different defensive teams and that mon is just solid right now. What does Iron Hands do to distinguish itself in this regard? Well the main difference between Iron Hands and other standard breakers who excel at breaking fat is that this mon is borderline unkillable thanks to it's insane defensive defensive stats + decent typing coupled with having multiple Tera options in order to lure would be revenge killers and checks. People have already gone guns blazing with calcs already so I'm not gonna bore you with a wall of calcs but TLDR if it's not a Specs or Banded Stab Super Effective move coming off of a good attacking stat it's not gonna Ohko this mon. Case and point:

252 SpA Choice Specs Sandy Shocks Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Iron Hands: 422-498 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Rip

So TLDR It's borderline unkillable, threatens 90% of the viable mons in the tier, can easily sweep and/or break after a single Swords Dance boost and has set variety in order to lure the few checks it does have and dumpster them immediately. Quick Ban this mon please <3.

Torkoal



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Next up is Torkoal and Sun in general as a playstyle which I wholeheartedly believe is a playstyle that's both not broken and also healthy for the metagame since it gives us a lot more HO variety in the tier since Screens and Webs have fallen off (especially the former RIP Orthworm) and Psychic Terrain is more on the cheesier side. In general Sun isn't exactly problematic when it comes to the abusers commonly found on Sun teams since most are either already strong pokemon in the tier like Sandy Shocks and Armarouge who just so happen to benefit offensively from Sun being up or are mons that don't function even remotely outside of Sun such as the Chlorophyll abuser(s but the rest kinda suck). The tier is full of things that Sun naturally struggles against, mainly both Tyranitar and Hippowdon being staple mons on many different teamstyles and opposing Proto mons getting free boosts from you.

However there is one giant elephant in the room when it comes to this regard and that's Slither Wing, which I think is the only even remotely unhealthy part of Sun simply because of how it completely dismantles all of it's pre existing counterplay with a Proto Boost. Your opponent has a mon that CB CC can't 2hko under normal circumstances? Proto Boost. Pads can't OHKO Talonflame with Wild Charge under normal circumstances? No problem. Wanna Tech for a potential hard counter like Palossand? Flare Blitz 2hkos. Sun gives Slither Wing a bunch of unexpected counterplay to pre-existing checks. Despite this I still don't find it broken since there're still large opportunity costs that come with these benefits, mainly set/moveslot additions and the fact that Sun has to be up 24/7. I can definitely understand why someone would find Sun to be problematic because of this but I personally think that Sun is fine at the moment.

Pawmot



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Kinda weird how Iron Hands coverage + Revival Blessing + Speed isn't grounds for immediately becoming a top 5 usage mon but I guess ladder works in mysterious ways. In general I find this mon to be moreso annoying than broken and I blame the beta period for this since it showed just how fun the metagame was when Pawmot wasn't there effortlessly breaking fat cores with two moves and freely reviving it's teammates. By itself I don't think that Pawmot is broken to the point where a Quick Ban is warranted but I could definitely see it or Revival Blessing getting suspect tested in the future (most likely after the two main issues within the tier get resolved).


Anyway that's all for this post. This playtesting really made me not wanna play stall in SV UU anymore because of how hands makes me wanna jump off of a cliff but atleast Sun is fun to mess around with. Overall I think that the council has got the metagame in a nice spot at the moment outside of two specific mons that they're probably looking into at the moment, so hopefully it goes from a 9/10 to a 10/10 soon.

 

[Twilight]

I just want to provide a different opinion on Hands because personally, I think Hands could potentially stay in this tier and be a welcomed edition. I think there are some good arguments as to why it needs to be banned, a few having been posted already. However, I think some of them seem to be so fixated on the ability to OHKO it. Why are you so desperate to OHKO it from full? There have been so many calcs posted about how some of these Pokemon fail to OHKO from full, but what's to assume it is always at full anyways? Between hazards and your defensive checks, wouldn't it be safe to assume calcs like this are enough -

252 SpA Choice Specs Sandy Shocks Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Iron Hands: 422-498 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

If you really want ways to OHKO it I'll list a few further in the post too. It's been made perfectly clear it has insane bulk and if allowed to set up and not have a good enough means to defensively hinder it then yeah it makes sense to struggle against it. Below I've listed all the defensive checks I can think of/or have tried. This is mainly focusing on SD Hands. If it is AV then frankly most of those soft-checks will beat it 1vs1.

Defensively -

Natural Checks:

Click Me

Starting with these guys. I have personally been using a lot of Hippowdon while laddering and it has handled Iron Hands pretty well. It doesn't outright win against every variant of SD but it can beat or severely weaken most. Without Ice Punch, you don't dent it hard enough from experience. Without Punching Glove Sand + Helmet + EQ is too much chip. If you do have Punching you can still chunk with EQ. If they Sub then you can Whirlwind. Tera is the main scary bit, but your own defensive Tera can make that matchup doable too.

Same deal as Hippowdon but you deny Drain recovery altogether. Ice Punch hurts just as same as Hippowdon but you're not coming out of that trade with nothing. You at least chip it into range of hopefully other stuff you're running. Same deal as Hippo, a defensive Tera could also turn this around completely. If they Tera then that becomes trickier than the Hippo matchup.

Soft-Checks:

Click Me

Quagsire obviously has Unaware and unless the set has Sub you simply put it on a timer. If it does have Substitute then yeah it sucks.

Naturally, you can stomach hits and hit hard back. This only changes if they Tera.

BU + Wisp + Intim is pretty decent at hindering Hands. I was using a bulkier spread with Body Press. Lack of longevity is the issue.

You resist the STABs so without Ice Punch you can beat it with the right moves. If it is then you can chip and weaken with Strength Sap.

Bulkish Ground-type that can take on Hands decently. Hits hard and a defensive Tera can make the matchup easier e.g. Ghost.

Encore is annoying as fuck for SD Hands.

Defensive Tera:

Click Me

Tera Fairy + Intim + Roost is pretty good into Hands. Heavily chip it at the minimum if you don't win the 1vs1

Same thing Tera Fairy can swing this matchup. Psychic does enough with Helmet chip. If it isn't Punching glove you potentially live two +2 Thunder Punch. If it is then you can at least play around with Regen if necessary.

On the whole topic of Defensive Tera in general there aren't enough people mentioning it. Defensive Tera is not bad and it can let you handle threats like Hands way more. I listed quite a few mons here that if they did change their typing would be able to at least trade or even win. (Assuming the opponent doesn't Tera too). Preemptively Tera if you are in a matchup that allows it too.

I find that in most cases where Hands was annoying for me is when it would Tera into another type. This can suck a lot because you're ability to wear it down with your defensive check might be hard or for some impossible. It is worth bringing up that this could also lead to another one of your offensive threats revenging it better though. If they Tera-Fairy then you are susceptible to Specs Gengar as Sludge OHKOs. If you Tera-Flying then stuff like Pawmot can revenge you etc.

Offensively -

"OHKO":

Click Me

Ada Banded Psycho Cut drops.

Toxtricity resists both STABs and Tera-Normal Boomburst blows it back with Specs. Goes through the Substitute sets.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Tera Normal Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Iron Hands: 447-526 (99.5 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO Copied

You can +2 and KO with Play Rough thanks to Disguise.

(Band and/or Tera)
Banded can more or less OHKO if you are Tera Flying

(Specs)
This also just OHKOs if you have rocks or minor chip

Same thing

Obscure -

These all needs Specs to OHKO it but like I wouldn't recommend it lol. Gard and Indeedee want Scarf at best and Espeon is just mediocre.

Now there are some other offensive mons that can revenge if it is weakened enough but that all varies depending on how low Hands is. E.g. Specs Noivern, Specs Jugulis, Tera Fight Banded Lycan-D, Graf can encore if you manage to get that opportunity.

I have exclusively been using HO or BO on ladder so I can't comment on Stall and how that matchup goes but I think there are a lot of options worth exploring before jumping on the Hands is broken train. You have cool options like Destiny Bond or Trick that I never mentioned above. I haven't gone out of my way to strenuously hard counter Hands and have been doing just fine, comfortably climbing back up to 1600s so I don't think it is constricting on the builder. The community obviously has enough support against it so a vote is perfectly acceptable. I would personally prefer it went through a suspect at least but if it's quick banned then hopefully we look at it again. As for my opinion on the other new stuff, Sun seems fine and nothing crazy from experience. Pawmot is very good and people should use it more because I haven't seen a single other person run it yet. Banded hits like a truck and has a great Speed tier. Scarf is a solid revenge killer and Revival Blessing is a good flex option. Tera Electric lets you spam Double Shock.

I shall end this post with a move and Tera I have liked on Tsareena.

Tsareena @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Queenly Majesty
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power Whip
- U-turn
- Play Rough
- Rapid Spin

After a spin you naturally outspeed Jugulis, Mence, and Noivern. This can let you land a lot of surprise KOs or severely chip them if not. Tera Fairy naturally being good into them. Tera Fairy + Play Rough is also great at punishing Slither Wing and Iron Hands.

Some calcs below. Keep in mind that if Noivern and Salamence did come in on Tsareena as you Spin you would drop them with that damage. That is all, see you again with another post next month maybe :o

Calcs

44 Atk Tera Fairy Tsareena Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Jugulis: 270-318 (82 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Copied

44 Atk Tera Fairy Tsareena Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 284-336 (91.3 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO Copied

44 Atk Tera Fairy Tsareena Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 284-336 (85.8 - 101.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO Copied

-1 44 Atk Tera Fairy Tsareena Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 188-224 (56.7 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Copied

44 Atk Tera Fairy Tsareena Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Haxorus: 254-302 (86.6 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO Copied

44 Atk Tera Fairy Tsareena Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slither Wing: 288-338 (92.6 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO Copied

44 Atk Tera Fairy Tsareena Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 222-264 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO Copied

 

[Moyashi]

I find that in most cases where Hands was annoying for me is when it would Tera into another type. This can suck a lot because you're ability to wear it down with your defensive check might be hard or for some impossible. It is worth bringing up that this could also lead to another one of your offensive threats revenging it better though. If they Tera-Fairy then you are susceptible to Specs Gengar as Sludge OHKOs. If you Tera-Flying then stuff like Pawmot can revenge you etc.

Personally I find this to be the biggest issue with Hands and why it's so troublesome. The fact is, depending on on what tera it chooses, you may end up having a different mon that can revenge it post tera, but that's a maybe. Hands having such staggering bulk means that if it's healthy enough, it may just survive and claim another KO.

The other issue is tera in conjunction with set versatility. I don't think AV Hands is problematic, and in fact I wish the rest of Hands wasn't because AV would be an amazing way to soft check a bunch of stuff and help building. But Hands has many variants of SD sets with varying tera types and moveset possibilities, not to mention item variety. Choice Band sets also are very dangerous.

Band Hands goes ham

200+ Atk Choice Band Iron Hands Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 211-250 (50.2 - 59.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

200+ Atk Choice Band Tera Steel Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 186-220 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

200+ Atk Choice Band Tera Steel Iron Hands Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

200+ Atk Choice Band Tera Steel Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 351-414 (89 - 105%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

200+ Atk Choice Band Tera Steel Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Brambleghast: 368-434 (146.6 - 172.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

200+ Atk Choice Band Tera Steel Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 236-278 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I feel Band can be one click from claiming a KO against supposed checks this way and is very much under appreciated. Scream Tail is able to handle it still, until it pulls out tera steel Heavy Slam, a combo which also has nice reach against a lot of the metagame.

I like Hands a lot, it's a very splashable and consistent Pokemon with some really nice qualities for UU teams that would make building easier, but at the same time I sympathise with those who feel it's too bulky and strong, and imo, too versatile for the tier right now.

 

[Squombus]

scovillian is decent in sun tbh bc it threathens a LOT of things out and can set up on em
a little worried about iron hands bc there r no COMPLETE counters to it
pawmot is a wannabe iron hands with revival blessing
torkoal: PROTOSYNTHESIS GO BRRRR
espathra: it was too strong, if you let it set even 1 or 2 calm minds, it sweeps easy
orthworm: cyclizar got banned so uhhh yeahhhh
pelipper just increases rain domination

 

[Loginator]

scovillian is decent in sun tbh bc it threathens a LOT of things out and can set up on em
a little worried about iron hands bc there r no COMPLETE counters to it
pawmot is a wannabe iron hands with revival blessing
torkoal: PROTOSYNTHESIS GO BRRRR
espathra: it was too strong, if you let it set even 1 or 2 calm minds, it sweeps easy
orthworm: cyclizar got banned so uhhh yeahhhh
pelipper just increases rain domination

Orthworm, Espartha and Pelipper are no longer in the tier.