Metagame np: USM PU Stage 2: The Modern Things [Passimian is Banned]

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#26
I also did not get reqs (and have given up on trying to get them at this point) but wanted to say a little bit about my opinions on Passimian. The only reason I want to share mine and not just leave it to the others who have already posted is because most people are very on one side about this. Either you are very in favor of the ban or against it. I, on the other hand, am fairly on the fence and I'll explain why.

Anti-ban: My main thing on this side is that I absolutely LOVE using Passimian. I find it such a fun mon and even tried to hype it before USUM. It's just such an easy mon to use and as someone who typically uses Hyper Offense, I love the amount of work it can put in. And as people have already said, it has fairly solid checks and counters. I've had games where Passimian can't do anything but U-turn because it risks a check coming in and taking care of it. There are a few reasons that I think Passimian should stay but my main thing is really just that I like it. Which seems kind of like a selfish thing to say when talking about the tier as a whole but w/e.

Pro-ban: I just gotta say that I've seen way too many games where people run 3 Fighting checks and still get beat by Passimian. In particular, I remember a game where someone was running Palossand, Clefairy, and Spiritomb as their normal fighting checks. However, as most Passimian carry Gunk Shot, Clefairy isn't a check, and the other two were worn down and eventually beaten by a combination of U-turn and Passimian's teammates. Though it does have checks and counters, you would have to play near perfectly to constantly keep offensive pressure up so it doesn't get a chance to U-turn for momentum. Also as I said before, I enjoy playing HO but Passimian's bulk and power means that HO has an awful matchup against it as many things can't outright KO it without prior damage and it can just pick up a most of the time. People have said that Passimian doesn't invalidate any playstyles, but I believe it does fairly heavily invalidate HO.

Throughout the whole suspect I've been very on the fence about Passimian. Although, more and more recently I've noticed how well it can do no matter how hard you prepare for it. So for that reason, if I could vote, I'd ban it despite how much I like using it. The meta has been stale for a long while now and I would love to see some change in the teambuilding process.
 
#28
So I've been getting back into PU as practice for PUDL, and via some playing around I discovered some stuff


Call me crazy, but I legit think Silvally-Fighting is a super sleeper pick in this metagame. Picture it as a sort of hybrid between Gurdurr and Primeape, for it has the speed and pivoting of Primeape, while having the bulk to match Gurdurr. Parting Shot is such a dangerous move, for switching into conventional Fighting checks like Spiritomb could potentially give you a chance to bring out a sweeper/wallbreaker like Drampa and devastate stuff. It can even cram in Defog support, something no other Fighting type in PU can claim to have.

Silvally-Fighting @ Fighting Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Defog
- Parting Shot
- Crunch

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-713144323


Raticate-Alola needs to be used more, seriously. Bulky playstyles still thrive with Passimian being gone and Spiritomb and Altaria being common, and what would you know, Faticate just shreds them apart. After an SD, you'll be hard-pressed to find a switch-in to this mon. I know this is common knowledge by this point, but Faticate is super slept on rn, and will demolish any and all unprepared teams. Not even Hitmonchan checks it consistently, for Sucker Punch does a nice chunk of damage and it can't switch into Return. As a bonus, it forms a great core with Silvally-Fighting, for it hits mons Faticate struggles to break like Regirock as well as opening up set-up opportunities with Parting Shot, while Faticate in turn helps Silvally get past bulky Ghost types like Spiritomb.

Raticate-Alola @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Return
 
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#30

A Sticky Web/hazard setter that isn't just a suicide lead and can actually fit on more Bulky Offense teams rather than Hyper Offense (which struggles in current meta) especially having the bulk to come back in later and set up webs if they're removed? Sign me the h*ck up. I can see this working with stuff like Kingler, Absol, Alola-Rat, offensive Mesprit, or even more niche stuff like Toucannon as well as other strong mons that aren't always the fastest. Also this thing being here is good for Primeape's viability both as a Defog deterrent to pair with Shuckle and as a web deterrent for opposing Shuckle.

Altaria leaving means we also lost one of our best fighting checks, also making Primeape a lot better. Unfortunate to see this thing go but can't say I didn't expect it.
#FreeVileplume
 
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#31
Altaria leaving is definitely going to impact the metagame, as it was the best defensive defogger the tier had to offer. Not only was it a fantastic check to popular fire- types and special attackers but it could beat the majority of hazard setters 1v1. Most of all I think this will impact stall, as it was a defogger, cleric and status absorber in one. Having hazards on the field is often a wincon versus stall if a remover is eliminated.

That being said, I think Articuno is likely the most optional Altaria replacement on stall archetypes for its monstrous bulk, useful utility in freeze-dry and pressure stalling, and it was often paired with Alt on stall to minimize hazards. I still believe that a second hazard remover is useful, so possible experimentation with stuff like Oricorio-E and Silvally-Water on balance/stall would be intriguing as forms of hazard removal that serve as a check to fire and fighting types and have serviceable utility in Taunt/multiple coverage moves.

E: completely missed Silvally-Dragon, really nice defogging pivot that can apply offensive pressure with Draco Meteor.

Also power trick shuckle or bust :pimp:
 
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#32
Losing Altaria sucks massively, as it was by far the tier's best defensive defogger and an amazing defensive mon. I think the tier will suffer for it, but in the meantime, these few stick out as noticeably better as a consequence:


Altaria was one of the few special walls that could reliably stand up to Magmortar, but now only Clefairy can claim to counter this beast. Fightinium can tear up Clefairy-less balance teams, and other sets like Choice Specs and Taunt are definitely viable to muscle past Clefairy easier. Definitely watch out for this guy.

cant even tell its a gif
With the best defogger gone, spikestack obviously gets better, especially when said defogger hard-countered your best spiker. Ferroseed can now set spikes much more reliably since it doesn't need to worry about Alt coming in for free and defogging them away. Still struggles with other hazard removers like Swanna and Hitmonchan unfortunately, but at least they aren't as free a switch-in as Alt was.


Amazing how this monster gets better and better each shift. Kingler has risen as a notoriously hard-hitting Agility sweeper, but Altaria threatened to stop it in its tracks, as even Sp.Def variants could comfortably eat Knocks and stall it out. But now, little can stand in the way of this bloodthirsty crustacean. Hail to the King, baby.

Shuckle's also cool I guess, and it's convenient that it drops as soon as Alt goes, but I'm not sure how well webs will fare when Primeape is coming into its prime(ape). Still, that amazing bulk and ability to run Mental Herb gives it a significant niche over Smeargle as a setter, and things like Encore and Knock can make it annoying to try and take advantage of. Unsure of how it will fare, but I look forward to seeing if it will find success.
 
#33
Echoing Ceal's post above, my immediate thought when I saw Altaria was gone was "oh s***, we can't stop fight-Z Mortar any more". I hate that set so much, because it prevents things like Miltank from functioning as a check/counter unless you scout/have a secondary fighting special resist (lul), which comes with its own risks (eating fire blasts is never fun). So, with Altaria gone, what are our options?

Lanturn does a decent job, though the Mortars that carry EQ can still almost 2HKO with Z-Focus and EQ. I definitely think we will see a resurgence in AV-Lanturn use.

As mentioned above, Clefairy will continue to rise in prominence, since it is a one-stop-shop SR setter and Mortar counter. Outside of these two and maybe Carbink, though, I don't really see an obvious choice, and it will be interesting to see how the meta shifts to respond to this void. I'd like to throw a special little buddy's hat in the ring for one-stop Mortar counter before I leave, though:


With access to Flash Fire and its secondary Ghost Typing, Lampent can......nah. Never mind. But you have to admit it's kinda cute and may even find use as a niche mon in someone's wildly successful tournament team, yeah?

The more interesting thing I wanted to say was that, with Altaria gone, other defoggers will see more use. Specifically, I think Skuntank will come back into favor as the ever-splashable defogger and psychic/Mesprit answer. It's down in usage, though still holding a solid #2 - I expect its usage to rise by 5-10% this month as the meta adjusts.

Naturally, this makes things like Sub HP Ground Haunter more important/viable.

Wait, I'm the only one who instantly thought that? Huh.

Chan will see more use again as a spinner, though with Spiritomb in the tier he will probably never regain his past glory. Speaking of Spiritomb, if people start moving back to using Skuntank as a defogger, I think we will see Tomb's usage decrease dramatically, since it fulfills a similar offensive role in many teams but does not provide Defog support. All of those teams with Altaria-Spiritomb cores will be dead in the water and require significant work to return to viability.

Shuckle's an interesting one, and I'll mostly just echo what Sergio said - I think it's what PU Webs has needed to be a viable strategy. Prior to this, the only webs-setters were frail and mostly useless after setting webs (and were often sacrificed). Once those webs were cleared, the setting mon became dead weight and the team often fell apart quickly,, but now we have a mon that can set multiple times throughout the battle as they get spun/defogged away. This increases the need for solid hazard control, returning to my point about Skuntank's imminent resurgence.

Shell Smash Shuckle or bust.
 

Anty

I can still hear you say it
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
#34
It has become increasingly clear to the council that this metagame is in a very messy state right now which can be attributed to the vast amounts of powerful wallbreakers, most notably Magmortar, Archeops, Pyroar, Auroras and Kingler. Though I'm not saying they are all deserving a ban, they all play a part in what makes this tier unhealthy, ie too many stupid offensive threats which makes it almost impossible to count for everything (especcially defensively) as shown by our best and most common defensive mons being 'blanket check' mons (just see the VR for this). Despite having wallbreakers higher than those five on the VR, they are all picked for their specific reasons, Auroras being almost uncounterable without much need for predicting, Magmortar and Kingler being uncounterable with the former having more solid speed, switch in potential and completely unreliant on items, Pyroar for its speed along with power, and Archeops for speed and ability to get past switch ins. If you put all these mons in a nutshell and think about our defensive responses to these (even ignoring other breaks like swanna and sensu) its clear we lack the defensive capabilities to deal with said threats. As said before, Magmortar is uncounterable and has only gotten worse now sets like Taunt and Choice Specs are becoming dominant, meaning Clefairy is no counter, which gets even worse when you throw Auroras and Pyroar into the mix as they dont share much defensive counterplay. Miltank can at least check the Pyroar while countering Auroras, Hitmonchan/Lanturn maybe able to switch in to everything once, and type:null maybe able to help scout, but realistically the teambuilding strain these three alone put on the tier is insane. Kinger/Archeops can't be grouped together as much, but coming from the physical end Archeops causes a 50/50 with Taunt on its switch ins and has good consistent matchups with any style while absolutely decimating too passive defensive teams and too frail offensive teams, and Kingler still feels a bit new for the meta still as its usage is only increasing and we have really dealt with a physical breaker without any switch ins, has good enough speed and can even set up to sweep. Though they all have their own reasons to warrant further discussion, this post isn't necessarily to dwell on what specifically should be banned, more why theres a problem and what we could do in the future.

Firstly, tier shift is soon (likely in a week) which is why the council have been a bit sceptic to start anything, but regardless if that was a mistake in hindsight, communication should definitely be opened. Of the likely tier shift changes, drop potentials include Typhlosion and Clawitzer, both of which i'd highly want to quickban as they'd clearly only further contribute to the problem (ofc now isn't the time for discussion of those), and likely rises include Miltank, Palossand, and Type: Null, all which help check the troublesome breaker (any other drop/rise is realistically impossible). With this, I am trying to say that discussing the future of the tier makes complete sense at the moment, as the problems at hand will only get worse.

And though this maybe controversial, some of the council do wish to bring up the potential of even quickbanning to allow us to more quickly fix the tier. All 10 council members thinks there is an issue with the tier and many of the top players in exhibition etc echo these statements. Putting into practise, if we ban Magmortar (the mon most of the council have the biggest issue with), then realistically does the tier get that much better? Ok Pyroar get easier to handle as Regirock/Clefairy (and sorta hitmonchan) become so much more reliable as fire checks, but does this really free up teambuilding much? And if tier shifts don't even change anything (which is the best case scenario), do we need to play the meta (which continues to get worse the more you play it) more to reach a conclusion the tiering council is in firm belief in when we could be improving the metagame further. I can go on with this point further, as our current situation is different to the lead up to most suspects but this post isn't meant to dwell on the idea of quickbanning either, but it is only fair we bring it up in public if the council are discussing it regardless of how likely(/unlikely) it is going to happen as we as a council very much want transparency with the playerbase.

Overall, please do not try to read between the lines of this post as my point. Some sort of suspect is extremely likely to happen, and though exactly what will happen is left unclear I hope that this post has been informative of potential next steps with justifications.
 
#35
I'm fine with quickbanning as an option to help balance the tier. While I'm a huge fan of letting the public have a say in decisions that affect us all, I think the people insane enough to play this game every day, enough to the point where they have such an extensive understanding of the metagame, possess better judgement than us plebs and should be able to make quick bans should the need arise. While I am still of the opinion that this tier is better than most of the others Smogon is offering rn (guess I'm just a huge PU fanboy?), I do agree that the wide amount of nigh uncounterable wallbreakers populating the tier puts a major strain on teambuilding and playing.


Magmortar has no defensive counterplay, and recent techs such as Taunt and Specs have cemented this fact. While rocks weakness is a problem, Mag's bulk is not bad at all, giving it some use as a soft-check to Ice and Fire-types, and 83 speed is nowhere near slow in a tier where most mons struggle to break the 100 benchmark. This is the mon I'm most comfortable with banning; it simply has an option to beat every defensive mon in the tier, and, given its versatility, this makes it almost impossible to guess what set it's running at matchup, making every switch into this thing a gamble. And it's nowhere as easy to punish as the other mons on the chopping block, which makes me even more down for seeing this thing go.


On paper, Archeops's counterplay might seem as simple as "just keep rocks up", but in actuality this thing is a lot harder to deal with. Most of its switch-ins lack reliable recovery, meaning that they can easily be worn down by either repeated switch-ins into Arch or a well-timed lure, setting the stage for a possible Arch sweep late-game. Those with reliable recovery (Palossand and Gastrodon) get shut down by Taunt, meaning that if they switch out, they'll get 2hko'd by Acrobatics later on. Essentially, defensively covering Archeops is only a temporary solution, which wouldn't be a bad thing, if counterplay to this thing wasn't limited to just scarf users. Not even all scarf users, either: scarf Primeape, for example, has to rely on Stone Edge to kill a full health Archeops, which even then is a roll and has a chance to miss. While it might be unfair to assume that Arch will always be at full, access to Roost and the fact that hazard control is still in a good spot means it's not an unrealistic scenario. Archeops is fairly more manageable then most of the other mons mentioned, but the fact that its counterplay is just so limited and can sometimes even be unreliable at that makes me question its place in the tier. If anything, I think this is one of the mons that should be publicly suspected, since I feel opinions on this might be quite divided, and public input could prove very beneficial.


Aurorus is another pokemon who's influence on the teambuilder is just oppressive. Reliable switch-ins amount to just Miltank and Clefairy, since Ice/Ground coverage is sooooo good, and Hail damage can quickly rack up on mons with unreliable recovery (Type: Null) or no recovery at all (AV Mag). Luckily it's incredibly slow and has a horrid defensive typing, so it's a lot more easily pressured than the other mons on this list, but its solid special bulk and stray useful resistances can give it a few switch-in opportunities. Overall on the fence with this mon too, but I wouldn't be upset to see this thing go.


Pyroar I feel has been mostly overshadowed in the "broken fire-type" department by Magmortar, but I get the feeling this could become an issue too once people experiment with it more. On paper its more linear coverage makes it much easier to just throw Regirock or Lanturn into it than you would against Mag, but I feel like Pyroar has the utility to beat it, specifically in Z-sets. Z-Solarbeam completely wrecks Regi and Lanturn, making it a fantastic lure and not an unviable option considering Pyroar's 4th slot is generally just filler. Other sets like LO Taunt screw over Clefairy (I'm beginning to notice a trend with Taunt here) and the more conventional sets like Choice Specs are still very good options. And like Arch, its naturally high speed makes this a hard mon to offensively pressure outside of scarfers and Archeops itself. I would hold on with this mon until Magmortar goes to see how the tier adjusts, but I don't see the future being too bright for the King of the Jungle.


It's incredible how just one move turned this thing from a shitmon to being on the table in this discussion. Kingler's Liquidation is a complete nuke, backed up with solid coverage and the ability to either break the tier in half with SD or clean sweep with Agility, but I'm skeptical with this mon more than the others. The thing that separates Kingler from the other wallbreakers listed is that he's the only one to require set-up to be at his max effectiveness, a key difference that on paper makes him more manageable than other powerful wallbreakers that can come in and immediately just start clicking buttons. It's also worth mentioning that both sets have their trade-offs; Agility can't break things as well as it'd like, and SD is too slow to sweep. That being said, there's still room to bullshit with this pokemon (can't remember what tourney this was for, but I specifically remember seeing a game in which a Sub Double Dance Kingler 1v1'd a Pyukumuku and clean swept a stall team) so who knows what could happen. Overall though, it sports more natural weaknesses than its competition, which makes me hesitant to demand any sort of action be taken on the King Crab.

Once again, would like to express my enjoyment of this tier and my appreciation for its council members for helping to create an enjoyable experience with shitmons. I look forward to reading others' opinions and seeing what action is taking to prevent this tier from going to shit. :]
 

yogi

As the trees, they await, and clouds anticipate
is a Tutoris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
#36
I already voiced most of my thoughts in the PU Discord chat, but yes, the tier is in an awkward position, akin to the one NU was in not so long ago (and is in now in my opinion), where banning one thing will not fix the overlying problem. The tier is unable to deal with wallbreakers of this calibre, especially the special attacking ones. Not only do these aforementioned wallbreakers restrict building, but they actually put you in a position where you actively choose what you want to lose to; that isn't something that you should consider when building. Blanket checks have become commonplace on almost all balance teams worth their weight, as dedicated checks just don't cut it when it comes to the top tier wallbreakers; Regirock and Carracosta check Pyroar but then lose to Magmortar.

Even the blanket checks, like Clefairy, get absolutely countered by certain sets like both Taunt Pyroar and Magmortar, making even blanket checking them a difficultly. This leaves most teams able to just about blanket check them or offensively check them, but almost incapable of being able to rely on a defensive switch-in to these Pokemon.

I agree that quick-banning these Pokemon is almost certainly the best way to try and balance the tier, especially before the tier shifts. Suspect testing with this many threats in the tier is far too slow and drawn out, and would take several tests before the tier could even be balanced and less restrictive.

Recently I was laddering with a few balance and bulky offensive teams, and some matchups I had to accept it would be an extremely hard game or that I basically lost at preview because I couldn't handle one of these Pokemon. Something needs to be done and, as said before, I don't think a suspect test would be the way to deal with the issue at hand.

Not much else to talk about because Anty covered the rest really.
 
#37
I guess I'm making a post. Yay. Also using April Fools sprites cuz I'm not late at all with those.

First up, the mons we could be potentially losing. I won't dwell too much on these since there isn't much more to discuss about them that hasn't already been said on Discord, Showdown, or in a post.


Get Magmortar outta here. WIth that Fire Blast+Focus Blast coverage already hitting most of the tier for neutral, and it still has two slots open for moves like Taunt or coverage to deal with the things that the first two can't. It also has its high Special Attack, making it very hard to deal with on the defensive side, and even decent bulk and Speed making it all the harder to deal with offensively. And I haven't even mentioned its versatility. Definitely should be the first to go. Quickban this boy.


Similar to Magmortar, Archeops has that great coverage with Acrobatics and Earthquake, along with Roost, which makes it all the harder to wear down through things like Stealth Rock. And then that last slot that can supply it with some extra coverage in Stone Edge, Taunt to ease a matchup against things like Regirock, and U-turn to gain momentum. While it might not have the best bulk, its amazing Attack and Speed allow it to remain relatively difficult to deal with offensively. Although with with a Scarf mon or priority, this pressure can be eased a little. Despite this, I definately wouldn't be against banning this. Oh yeah, it also has a lead set, cuz why not.


Definitely the one I'm most iffy about out of the bunch. Pyroar has great STAB coverage between Fire Blast and Hyper Voice, Hidden Power Grass for those Regirocks and stuff, and the options between Taunt and Will-O-Wisp to cripple stuff or Flamethrower and Overheat for more accurate Fire STAB. It has some nice stats, with a good Special Attack and Speed, especially when combined with Specs, Life Orb, or Scarf. While it can be a pain to deal with offensively, I just find it the easiest to defensively check out of the bunch, especially when choice-locked, and especially choice-locked without the Special Attack boost. I'd wanna wait to see how it does in the meta after a couple of the others are banned before a suspect or quickban or whatever.


Blizzard everywhere. Ice is a great offensive typing currently, and like the others, Aurorus (or should I say Auroras) has things like Freeze-Dry and Earth Power to deal with what Blizzard can't. It's low Speed makes it pretty easy to revenge kill, assuming it isn't Scarf, and even then its typing makes it weak to things like Mach Punch. But thats revenge killing, since if Aurorus is able to come in on a slower opponents, something is getting bopped. I'm all for quickbanning this thing.


Dear god, Kingler has been underrated. But simultaneously, dear god that STAB Life Orb Sheer Force Liquidation. And again, alongside coverage with Superpower and Knock Off, which also provides some utility for those checks. It can be pretty easily worn down and revenge killed, assuming it doesn't manage to set up an Agility. Ah yes, Agility. Or just go Double Dance with Agility and Swords Dance. While it can break through things with ease with Liquidation, I find it to be an even bigger problem after it sets up (who woulda thought), as you need something like Scarf Pyroar to outspeed Kingler if it manages to set up an Agility. Otherwise, GG. I love ya Zeito, but get this Krabby outta here.

Overall, these mons largely limit teambuilding, and I'm fine with any, if not all, of them being banned. People have been showing their lists in order of how much they find each mon needs to go, so here's mine I guess: Magmortar>Aurorus>Archeops>Kingler>Pyroar.

Next up we've got all the potential stuff. All the speculative rises and drops. Yeah that stuff.


So, people have been talking about these two dropping. Typhlosion was broken in its short time in PU, and I don't expect much different if it drops again. Look at Magmortar. Now imagine an overall better one thanks to a better Speed and Eruption. Can we just quickban this thing before it drops? I'm not against Clawitzer being quickbanned, either. Despite being pretty slow, similar to Aurorus, its picking up a KO every time it comes in. This is with its combination of its high Special Attack, Mega Launcher, and that coverage. This includes moves like Sludge Wave and Aura Sphere to deal with the foes that can take a Water Pulse, or it can just U-turn on them. I wouldn't be against a suspect either, just for a chance to screw around with it, although I doubt it'll stay either way.


I've also heard that we might get these two back. And I'm all for at this point. Altaria would help against Pyroar and Kingler, and Magmortar to an extent, although I somewhat doubt it'll make them much less broken. Its biggest impact would probably be on Pyroar, who would be forced to choose between Hidden Power Grass and Ice, if it isn't running Taunt. Otherwise, it provides a nice Defogger that can serve as either a physical or special wall. Or use it for some Dragon Dance shenanigans. Qwilfish, oh Qwilfish. I simultaneously want and don't want you to drop. A nice physical check, and has some great utility too, with things like Taunt and Thunder Wave. Its hazards would also be helpful whittling down threats, making them easier to deal with, although I again don't think it'll matter too much in the long run. On the other hand, those hazards are just so annoying...


And now we get to the losses. And honestly, these are going to screw us over. Starting with the one we've been expecting for a while, Type: Null is a solid switchin for those Special Attackers in general, including Pyroar and Aurorus, although with its low usage currently in PU, its probably make the least impact. Miltank is also a great switchin for special attackers, and can also provide some nice utility like Stealth Rock. However, it leaving pretty much guarantees Aurorus being banned, and would likely place me on the "Ban Pyroar" end. Palossand serves as a great switchin for Archeops, as well as a couple other good mons, so it leaving, similar to Miltank, would pretty much guarantee Archeops leaving as well. Its also a great Stealth Rocker.

And finally, something I've found not too many people talking about surprisingly enough, how this could shape the meta. These are just a couple mons I feel would do a little better, or a little worse, in a meta without those furious five. I gonna try not to go into too much detail on these (and yes, I know I said that earlier).


These are just a couple mons that are generally outclassed right now, although the bans could lead to them getting some more love. Whenever people would ask about Fire mons like Rapidash, Ninetales, Heatmor, and Simisear, others would simply respond with "Why use it over Magmortar or Pyroar?" And they were right. Lets just hope RU doesn't steal Ninetales. Drifblim and Lapras are my comparisons to Archeops and Aurorus, although they sadly probably wouldn't be too relevant, as they'd still have some competition. Then there's Basculin, the awkward one in between Kingler and Floatzel. Welp, with no more Kingler, it could pick up a niche as a hard-hitting Water mon.

(the blue one)
With less special attackers to check, specially bulky mons like Clefairy and Assault Vest Hitmonchan could fall a little in relevance. Don't get me wrong, however, since they'll still be great choices with their utility, and there will still be things like Drampa running around to check. Simultaneously, certain physical walls like Weezing will get even better, with less special attackers to break through them. Gastrodon is pretty 50/50 right here, serving as a check for Archeops and Kingler, while losing to Aurorus, Pyroar, and Magmortar, depending on the set.


So here's just a couple other random mons I feel would do better. Wallbreakers in general, both physical and special like Stoutland and Abomasnow, would appreciate the less competition. Lilligant, and likewise Bellossom, would have an easier time setting up and sweeping with less checks in Magmortar and Pyroar. And finally, my boy Duosion would also have an easier time setting up and sweeping with less wallbreakers to KO it before it can set up enough Calm Minds or Acid Armor.

So yeah, these were just my short thoughts on all this stuff. And if you actually bothered to read this, you have way too much free time on your hands, but I still love you. Partially because I also have way too much free time. And if you just skipped to the end, uh, hi. Okay now I'm done.

Also did anyone else notice Anty's post was posted on April Fools day...
 
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Aaronboyer

Upside Down Puppers
is a Pre-Contributor
#38
I asked Akir to start a room poll for which Pokemon is most needing of a suspect test, and currently Archeops is pull a head of Magmortar by a near 3:2 margin, among other Pokemon like Aurorus and Kingler. After some time and consideration, I've come to the conclusion that Magmortar is the true Pokemon we need a suspect test for, and I'd like to use this post to explain why. Before I dive into any depth in this post, I want to state that my feelings about Archeops has definitely changed from when I made its VR nomination from S --> A+ a few weeks back. I've been using Archeops more in the last several weeks, and it's effectiveness has proven unto why it's deserving of its S Rank. I want to clear up any potential bias people may think I have of Archeops before I state my case on Magmortar.

With that out of the way, it's easy to see why Magmortar has become such a threatening Pokemon as of late. The loss of its biggest check, Altaria, has left no reason for it to be running Hidden Power Ice any longer, opening the door for Magmortar to run coverage for things like Gastrodon. There is no telling what moves or what item Magmortar is packing from team preview. Besides its powerful STAB Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, Earthquake, Hidden Power Grass, Taunt, and Focus Blast are all options for beating Magmortar's checks. Movesets can fluxuate to accomadate the team's weaknesses. Checks for one set are not checks for another, and therefore there is no straight counter, in part due to the lack of true Fire-type resists. Regirock, Munchlax, Type: Null, and Miltank have to force Magmortar to waste its All-Out Pummeling by double switching if they want any chance of winning the matchup. Clefairy and Carbink similarly get mowed down by Choice Specs sets, of which has been becoming increasingly more common. Magmortar has also been beginning to run Max Speed Timid, which reaches the ever present Base 80 benchmark of Pokemon such as Mesprit, Stoutland, and Shiftry. Archeops on the other hand, while also hard to switch into, has clearly defined switch-ins that are currently not discouraged of switching in by its mass coverage such as Ferroseed, Palossand, Regirock, Carracosta, Mesprit, Musharna. This is because PU currently has more Physically Defensive walls than Specially Defensive walls. Furthermore, every Choice Scarf user can revenge kill Archeops due to its inability to viably hold an item (besides Focus Sash, that isn't the set in question of suspecting), also limiting set customization. Archeops is also very susceptible to priority moves, and alongside Stealth Rock makes it easy to push Archeops into Defeatist range.

In conclusion, Magmortar is more threatening to the PU tier currently than Archeops, and the thought of potentially losing Miltank and Type: Null are further reasons why we should suspect test it. There has been talk of potentially quickbanning Magmortar as well, but I'm currently not leaning one way or the other on whether quickbanning or suspecting is the best option.
 

allstarapology

Let's hit the climax!
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#39
Of every Pokemon being discussed, I believe that Magmortar most deserves to have some sort of action taken against it.

Simply put, I'd like Magmortar to leave the tier. The recent departure of Altaria, which was at the very least one of its better defensive checks, was a godsend for it. Despite Taunt variants besting it, Magmortar no longer has to consider shafting something much more valuable for Hidden Power Ice, which means that it can much more comfortably run its other coverage moves without missing out on any major target. The majority of its defensive checks either get annihilated by All-Out Pummeling or are put to a complete stop by Taunt, and then there's its high Special Attack coupled with the impressive coverage in Fire Blast + Focus Blast + Thunderbolt. Aside from this, I feel like the major problem lies in its versatility. Choice Specs, Life Orb, Fightinium Z, Firium Z, Grassium Z, variants with Earthquake, even Hidden Power Steel variants; all possible and usable, which makes it damn near impossible to discern which variant it is from Team Preview alone. While many highlight the lacklustre Speed tier and bulk as faults (and I do acknowledge that they prevent it from shining 100% against more offensive builds), I believe that they aren't terrible considering its role as a wallbreaker and that it's enough to hamper more balanced, defensive builds. To summarize, pls ban.

I believe action should be taken against Kingler as well, and as with Aurorus and Pyroar should the potential departure of Miltank and Type: Null become a reality, though I am to this day mixed about Archeops. I hope this post sufficiently got my point of view across.
 

MrAldo

Bird Enthusiast
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#40
I think getting rid of the most powerful wallbreaker could be a good thing to start trying to achieve something close to a balanced tier. From the full of wallbreakers available I believe Magmortar and Archeops really stand out as a sore thumb in terms of sheer effectiveness cause the other effective wallbreakers like Aurorus and Pyroar at least has a priority weakness that is pretty common with the likes of Gurdurr and Hitmonchan being common.

I do believe that if you want to force a quickban in order to move forward asap the one (and only) candidate for this move is Magmortar. I believe adding more mons to this qban equation without considering how the meta would evolve can be something people would regret. Like you free up teambuilding a lot by removing Magmortar already, then maybe Archeops would be that bad since it is actually an offensive check to Pyroar and stuff.

And idk about polls as a solution cause this method can be really really biased, and provide awkward results if it isnt taken as seriously as the council is taking this. In the end, you gotta do the best for your tier so if you are feeling a quickban... just go for it. Not the most stellar precedent but nobody would care as long that is the right move (which I think it is, Magmortar is super duper dumb). Id probably quickban magmortar, wait from drops (quickban them or w/e) then let the meta stabilize and potentially suspect Archeops if my opinion is worth something.
 

Darkinium

the mighty nuaguunibi
is a Pre-Contributor
#41


Hello...



Goodbye...

(Note that Samurott will almost certainly not be joining PU, as it was previously banned to BL4.)

At the time of me posting this, these have not yet been implemented.

So enjoy the tier while you can.
 
#42
I know we should test mons and let people adapt and not the jump the gun and yadda yadda yadda, but can we seriously insta-ban Typhlosion? Like, right now? It literally is just a faster Magmortar with Eruption. And if we're considering quick-banning that, how will Typhlosion be any better? People were complaining about it being broken all the way back in Alpha, and since then, the meta has only gotten weaker and less power-creeped. And as discussed in this thread, we already have a massive problem with strong wallbreakers, which is only accentuated by losing two great walls.

tl;dr save the playerbase the trouble, cut the shit and just quickban Typhlosion
 
#43
How have we not lost type:null at this point? Either way we lost another set of defensive checks, Miltank handling Auroras and checking Pyroar while Pallosand was a decent Archeops check. The tier’s top wallbreakers (the furious 5) have become even more difficult to check.

And lol Typhlosion ain’t gonna last
 
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