Metagame np: USUM PU Stage 4.5- Spikes [Minior Quickban]

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You'd betray your king?
is a Pre-Contributor
Well, let's see here:

This thing is an absolute monster! Let's face it, you let this thing set up, it will destroy everything on the opposing team. There are maybe a handful of mons in the meta who can switch in safely and either stall it out or retaliate. Unaware users like Quagsire and Pyukumuku laugh at Minior's Shell Smashes and while Quag can fight back with Scald/Waterfall but Pyukumuku can't really do anything in return unless Minior is in its non-Meteor form since status won't work due to Shields Down. There are a few others that can switch in but only on the Shell Smash. These mons include Bulky Jellicent, Eelektross, and Regirock. Here's some calcs to show it:

+2 252+ Atk Minior Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent: 304-358 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Minior: 228-270 (87.3 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Bear in mind, Minior will go down if it came in on rocks since Scald does 87% minimum.

+2 252+ Atk Minior Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 198-233 (52.9 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Eelektross Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Minior: 326-386 (124.9 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Eelektross can EQ and can possibly prevent Minior from setting up if Eel comes in on a bad predicting EQ. 1 Volt Switch takes it out and a +2 Acrobatics just does over half on Eel.

+2 252+ Atk Minior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Regirock: 192-226 (52.7 - 62%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Regirock Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Minior: 242-288 (92.7 - 110.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

As with Eelektross, Regirock can wall Acrobatics just like Eel walls EQ. 1 Stone Edge will OHKO with or w/o rocks while Rock Slide has a good chance to OHKO w/o rocks or will with rocks.

Let's just give a warm round of applause to and welcome back this annoying slug. This thing may have hard time readjusting to this meta given how common Grass types are. It should nonetheless still find a place for itself here as a Toxic user that has access to Recover to stall out would-be sweepers. It does face some competition from Quagsire since it does the exact same thing but there are a few mons that it can stand up to like Specs Jellicent, Skuntank and Pom Pom. Scald and Earth Power do continue to help it for mons like Aggron but are completely walled by Eelektross which should see an increase in it's viability due to the fact that it can stand up to both of these drops.


is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributor
So I don't normally post opinions regarding the meta, but I decide to throw my thoughts into the ring. Haven't used Minior enough to enough to give a strong opinion about it, but unprepared teams can just fall over to Acrobatics + EQ so the subsequent rise of mons like Quagsire will definetly be noted as the meta goes through the adjustment period. As for everything else, I'll talk about the other drop Gastrodon and the loss of Togedemaru as well as a set that I feel benefitted from the shift.

Gastrodon-East @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Recover

I won't say the EV spread will be standard dependng on how the meta adapts as you'll probably either be running Max Defense or Special Defense, but the moveset more or less is essentially set. In any case, the HP and Defense investment lets Gastrodon take physical hits as best as possible from mons like Lycanroc and Kangaskhan, notably avoiding the OHKO from +2 Adamant Minior Acrobatics after Stealth Rock. The rest is thrown into Special Defense with a Sassy nature to check stuff like Jellicent (ya know until they start running Energy Ball). Ice Beam can be ran catch A-Exeggutor and Lilligant on the switch, but at the same time neither appreciates a Toxic either.

+2 252+ Atk Minior Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228 Def Gastrodon: 339-399 (79.5 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Gastrodon: 168-198 (39.4 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Ok, so I wasn't expecting this to rise to NU at all and while it sucks that tier essentially lost its most consistent scarfer, this can also be view as a blessing in disguise for other Pokemon to fill the role of fast scarfer on most teams an helps with teambuilding diversity. Dodrio, Primeape, Manectric, and Scyther can all be ran as solid Choice Scarfers in the current meta as it still accomplishes the role of revenge killer that can check something like +1 Lilligant if your team lacks something to deal with it.

The last thing I wanted to touch on in this post is a set I originally did as a means to see what other lower tier mons benefitted from the shift as well as see if there were any other potential breakers. While some mons can assume that description, one particular Pokemon came to mind and that was Golurk. More specifically, Banded Golurk.

Golurk @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Shadow Punch
- Ice Punch
- Stone Edge

I was actually gonna post this set pre-shift, but wanted to see if anything good came of it and while the loss of Weezing isn't too detrimental for the tier, Golurk is one Pokemon that is glad to see that thing gone. I'm not gonna go as far as saying that this set is the next best thing or anything crazy like that, but as stuff like Specs Jellicent and A-Exeggutor can accomplish in terms of breaking down slower, fatter teams, this can do the same thing as well. I know someone wanted this to drop in viability a while back with the argument of being outclassed by Mudsdale, but the added Speed and secondary Ghost typing lets Golurk act as a threatening breaker as Banded Shadow Punch can 2HKO Earthquake resists (or in this case immunities) in Mesprit and Eelektross, and Lilligant and A-Exeggutor can't directly switchin as Ice Punch deals with both while also dealing with the likes of Dodrio, Oricorio-E, and Scyther. The last move is mainly filler here as it was Zen Headbutt to 2HKO Weezing, but I put Stone Edge here to bop like Articuno. Thunder Punch can work here to accomplish the same thing or Drain Punch if you want to maintain some sort of longevity. The only thing that really comes in on this no problem is Defensive Tangela, but this set can easily be paired with something like Dodrio to handle that. Jolly Nature to outspeed stuff like Modest Aurorus, Modest Jellicent, and Jolly Aggron.

252 Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 190-225 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mesprit: 240-284 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 205-243 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 226-267 (64 - 75.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Mudsdale: 250-296 (61.8 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent: 318-374 (78.7 - 92.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Regirock: 228-270 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Formerly Many
is a Tiering Contributor
Either eggy or lilli has to go. Idc which, but dealing with both monstrosities at the same time is making teambuilding/playing a lot less fun. Lilli has been busted for ages, but we've adapted by running 3 lilli checks on every team (and even then it can still sweep). Yes, in a vacuum this mon's coverage is simply not good enough for the tier, but Sleep turns and Z-moves can throw the issue of coverage out of the window and makes most counterplay into obnoxious 50-50s. Eggy on the other hand only picked up steam more recently, and its Trick Room set just decimates offensive teams which it will nearly always setup on due to its full HP invested bulk. Few mons can stand up to the insane power and coverage it has, and unless you are running Ice Beam and Hurricane on every mon you will most likely get swept. You can run fatter teams too but those get smacked by Specs Eggy, who freely switches on some of our most splashable pokemon, like Regirock and Mudsdale. In conclusion, Z-moves break everything and are dumb.


I like trains.
is a Tiering Contributoris a former Tournament Circuit Champion
I would like to comment a bit on the current metagame, because I feel like many people have forgotten what PU looked like 1 year ago. The current meta is probably the healthiest I have played, and even if there are some controversies about exeggutor alola, this is nothing in comparison to the pyroar-kingler-ferroseed meta, which was just a toxic meta full of pseudo-creativity.

A Quick (this is a lie, but will be super effective against your brain and you will be more likely to read it) analysis of the meta (from my point of view ig). This should help newcomers and will eventually tackle the eggy issue (actually only tackles the eggy issue but it isnt obvious at the beginning)

1) Fighting types VS fighting checks/counters

PU is basically defined by the number of strong, viable fighting types which are the most meta defining threats. Even though people currently sleep on gurdurr/hitmonchan and forgot primeape existed while we had togedemaru, they are still incredibly dangerous mons which become unstoppable without a well-built team. Since I'm the one writing, I will therefore say things that might be not totally true but I think I do have enough experience to take it as granted. But primeape, gurdurr and hitmonchan's impact on teambuilding is real, as most players know it.

Rule 1:
Always have 2 fighting checks. One of them should be a hard check or a counter. Good cores:
-Mesprit+Froslass (offense)
-Mesprit+jellicent (offense/balance depending on the sets)
-Jellicent+roselia (balance) (roselia is an extremely unreliable fighting check)
-Mudsdale+Pompom (balance / BO )
-Sableye+ soft check/nothing (balance)
-Quagsire+any mesprit set (balance)
-Quagsire+altaria (stall)

Rule 2:
Fighting types also provide a lot of utility to every team, and you should try to figure out why you aren't using one of them if it's the case.
-Gurdurr: stoutland/aggron/kangaskhan/skuntank/primeape/kabutops/persian/sandslash/aurorus check (offense)
-Hitmonchan: probably the best AV user. Stops almost every special attacker: lilligant, exeguttor, omastar, aurorus, eelekross, lanturn, ludicolo, rotom-Frost. Besides, it checks sandslash, aggron, stoutland, kangakhan and kabutops.
-Primeape: Only sableye and jellicent can reliably deal with it, due to its coverage moves and uturn chipping away at would-be switchins
-Poliwrath: mainly a mon for balance. It hard stops kabutops, jellicent, aggron, and checks omastar very well with vaccum wave -and prevents a hydropump spam. Despite its low spatk stat, it has perfect coverage moves and utility, which means nothing except clefairy can reliably wall it.

Rule 3:
Skuntank is an amazing pokemon, and it's no surprise you will find it paired with fighting types, since they share great synergy (they beat rocktypes for skunk, skunk traps psychic/ghost mons). Therefore, a standard Pu core is: fighting type+skuntank.

For those who have played PU for a while, nothing new here. Though I think people tend to forget how meta defining fighting types are, especially when I see people saying gurdurr is meh, or that AV chan isnt a good mon, or thinking that slapping a scarf mesprit or specs jellicent in their team will deal with them.

2) Of Stealth rock setters and The eggy controversy

Eggy: "Don't run, don't run, I'm coming for you !!"

Eggy: "oh oh" "try to take two hits" " :) "

Eggy: "If you really are so desperate, I give up :( " "Joking, eat dat sludge bomb ! "

There are currently 4 good stealth rock setters: Mesprit, Regirock, Sandslash-Alola and Mudsdale. I genuinely think the problem with Exeguttor atm is how easily it takes advantage of them (except sandslash, which doesn't necessarily have stealth rock actually). Basically, there aren't so many switchin opportunities for exeguttor in PU: most pokemons can easily weaken it or just KO it. To name a few: stoutland, hitmonchan, pompom, sandslash, aurorus, skuntank, primeape, silvally-dragon/fairy, omastar, froslass, etc. But you can almost always send exeguttor on the opposing stealth rock setter for free and get a KO, since nothing can wall it (except audino/articuno teams but that's hard stall ngl). PU is an offensive tier especially since we lost palossand, miltank, togedemaru, weezing and ferroseed during tier shifts, so having pokemons that hit hard and can just be checked is no surprise. However, eggy (just like kingler actually) can come for free on the stealth rock setters and get a KO, which is huge, since 1) every team uses one of the aforementioned setters 2) it's not hard to predict when they will be sent in+they are often used as uturn/voltswitch absorbers.

Some scenarios will help understanding it. Player A will be using eggy:
1) Player B's team: regirock BO. Player B will be naturally in a bad position: every time he will want to send in regirock vs player A, he will know eggy will be switching in. So 1) if he wants to get rocks up he must sack something afterwards 2) he will have to be making doubleplays and thinking every time he wants to use regirock to pivot on a uturning mesprit/skuntank/stoutland etc.
PS: icepunch regi is a tech but not a real solution.

2) Player B's team: mudsdale balance. Things get even worse here. Typically good partners for mudsdale are roselia, jellicent, sandslash and anything able to take grass/water moves. But nothing able to take a draco (sandslash can but flamethrower kills).

So as you can see, Eggy takes fully advantage of how weak stealth rock setters are to it, especially since they are often forced to switchin to handle skuntank (which is everywhere), stoutland. Anyway, getting a free KO on the stealth rock turn is already worrying.

3) Mesprit's case: Mesprit is weak to neither grass nor dragon, but that doesn't matter. The standard mesprit set can't damage exeguttor and gets Ohko'd (or put at 2-3%) by a specs draco / Z draco. Running icebeam isn't ideal at all, since it doesn't have room for that.

As you can see, eggy is incredibly good at taking advantage of stealth rock setters to get free kills, which is annoying since everyone uses one of them don't we?

Now, why did I talk about fighting types earlier, and then suddenly moved on to talk about exeguttor? Not only to quickly explain the Pu tier, but because here comes the exeguttor/drampa comparison.

3) Exeguttor and Drampa: why two similar pokes actually aren't similar at all
Drampa: "I'm balanced, don't draw a comparison between this weird tree and me!"
You should have the answer now if you have read the 2 previous paragraphs.
-Exeguttor isn't weak to fighting (it actually checks gurdurr and poliwrath very well)
-Exeguttor can hit regirock and mudsdale super effectively. "Uh, but drampa's draco just Ko's them??" Right.
-Exeguttor takes nothing from mudsdales moves and doesn't really need to predict in other scenarios. For example, clefairy+regirock will be a pain for drampa, while exeguttor just clicks leafstorm specs and KO's whatever is sent in.

I totally assume my main arguments: eggy doesn't fear fighting types, threatens stealth rock setters a bit more than drampa but doesn't really need to predict since its second stab (leafstorm) destroys everything that would try to take a draco (clefairy/silvally fairy/aggron (lol)). Sandslash doesn't count, both dragons KO it with flamethrower. Drampa's secondary stab (hypervoice) is less strong than leafstorm and does... 0 to ghost types, which means predicting is key with drampa vs fat stuff including jellicent or clefairy for example.

AND last but not least:
-Eggy can be OTR (offensive trick room, i.e. sets trick room up and sweeps on its own). And this is HUGE. Because the power loss as compared to specs isn't relevant except vs clefairy and stall, especially with Z draco being as strong as specs draco. Secondly because it can annihilate offensive teams with minimal support. By annihilate, I mean taking down at least 2mons without much trouble for setting up. Don't forget your AV chan or eelektross!

4) Lilligant : is it broken?

Saying that lilligant is broken is an overstatement. Unhealthy due to its different set variations and sleep luck, maybe (even though I found it healthy so far). But broken? Most teams carry (or should carry) a skuntank/spdef sandslash/oricorio/scyther/90+speed scarfer. It's not like it is hard to fit them in teams, and you can easily have 2 or 3 lilligant checks in the same team without actually wanting to hard check it. Lilligant also suffers from 4MSS (4 moveslots syndrom): run sleep powder+hiddenpower ice and you can't really hit skuntank and articuno, while autolosing to sandslash; sleep+hp rock autolose to sandslash too, but has the benefit of beating cuno and scyther, even though u give eggy a free switchin; HP fire only hits sandslash, but is often needed bc, well, sandslash is everywhere. Lastly, Z hyperbeam+hiddenpower fix these flaws, but cannot setup on anything except bulky rocks and water. Lilli is also prone to being Priority revenge killed, missing sleep powder, not getting sleep turns, failing a prediction vs a scarfer, and to being easily toxiced by regirock, mudsdale and audino.

Probability of getting a sleep turn to setup safely (so includes probability of hitting sleep powder):
0.75 x 0.66 = 0.495=49.5%
Basically, using sleep powder+QD=flipping a coin. 50% chance it actually works. 50% chance you just QD on a pokemon that wakes up and attacks you.

So if I had to state my opinion:
I'm OK with an Eggy suspect; I'm against anything Lilligant related. If you want to ban both, first ban eggy and then we will see if lilligant doesn't actually become even more necessary to handle regirock/mudsdale/jellicent. And please, don't tell me lurantis/bellossom/roselia deserve to be better, because even if you ban half the tier they won't be better.

PS: I will re-read it later on (and edit if necessary), sorry if I forgot words or made stupid grammatical mistakes). I gtg now and dont want all my work to be deleted for some obscure reason. Thanks for reading!
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