Metagame NP: USUM Stage 7: Dark Center of the Universe (Guzzlord Banned)

Megazard

The turtle moves
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Top Team Rater Alumnus
PU Leader
184478
The PU Council has decided to suspect test Guzzlord. Although we've recently experienced a large change to the metagame with the removal of Mesprit, we also think it's time to evaluate Guzzlord's presence in the tier and see if people still find it too large of an issue. Guzzlord is one of the strongest Pokemon left in PU, with titanic bulk and a sizeable moveset capable of chipping most any switch-in over time or simply OHKOing a large portion of the tier with its respectable offenses. Guzzlord is simply difficult to check, it can 1v1 most of the tier and few Pokemon exist that can reliably pivot into Guzzlord more than once, especially with Knock Off's ability to cripple item-reliant switchins like Assault Vest users. On the flipside though, Guzzlord is slow and has lots of weaknesses. Unlike Alolan Exeggutor it can't ever become a sweeping threat, and there are plenty of options to check it offensively. Many teams will only really need to switch into a hit from Guzzlord once, especially if they use entry hazards to pressure it. It can be argued that Guzzlord is analogous to Drampa or Rampardos, slow wallbreakers which are nearly impossible to wall but very much balanced by their poor speed and mediocre typing albeit with nowhere near the same bulk as Guzzlord. Nevertheless, Guzzlord has a massive presence in the tier and necessitates a good amount of adaptations such as Specially Defensive Gurdurr, Drain Punch Eelektross, or previous usage of Twinkle Tackle Mesprit. Over the next two weeks we'll determine if Guzzlord still has a place in the metagame.

There will be no suspect ladder. Instead we will use the normal PU ladder which will remain open for the duration of the test. A message will pop up at the beginning of ladder games to indicate that the suspect is going on. Anyone who wishes to participate in this suspect test will use a newly-made alt with a suspect-specific tag to indicate that you are trying to achieve reqs. The requirements for this suspect test are the following:
  • All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! PU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "GST (nickname)" For example, I might register the alt GST Megazard to ladder with.
  • Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokemon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
  • To qualify for voting, your alt must play 35 games with a minimum GXE of 80.
The suspect test will last for 14 days, ending on Friday July 19th at 10PM EST. Good luck qualifying!
 
184487
While I know the new meta really just began, I also know that I personally believe the meta changes are irrelevant to my thoughts on Guzzlord, as its strengths and weaknesses are not affected by the changes. So to start off, here is a bullet list of pro-ban and no-ban arguments for newer players to have a general idea of the basics of this suspect.

Pro-ban
  • Guzzlord has very limited switchins, often netting a ko for every one to two times it comes in.
  • Guzzlord has a plethora of resistances which allow it to switch in very easily throughout the match
  • It has a multitude of sets which make it impossible to initially know which set it is running, making it a lethal guessing game.
  • Even typical switchins like AV hitmonchan do not get to switch in too many times, especially if the Guzzlord is running Knock Off
No-ban
  • Guzzlord also has a multitude of weaknesses, allowing it to be threatened out fairly easily.
  • Its speed stat is very low, allowing even really slow pokemon to offensively check it.
  • Guzzlord does not get to switch in multiple times in a match if you have entry hazards on the Guzzlord's side of the field.
  • Guzzlord is the same idea as Drampa and Rampardos, having no switch-ins but not being broken.
Now onto my take on all this.

I will personally be voting ban on Guzzlord. What makes this pokemon broke in my opinion is that every time this pokemon switches in, there is overwhelming pressure on your side of the field, and there is a high likelihood that something will either die or be crippled. Yes, Choice Specs is difficult to switch into and yes, dragonium z is the same way. But what makes this too much in my opinion is also having a viable Choice Band set, coverage moves in Heavy Slam and Sludge Bomb, and its stellar typing and HP. You are playing a guessing game the first time it switches in, and even if you do happen to have a counter for both its special set and physical set, if you guess the wrong one on the first time its out you could end up in a drastic disadvantage. Later I will try to compile a list of counters to each set, and it will really show where this pokemon can be out of hand due to its lack of overlaps between counters for each set. It is already a big deal if you are requiring two different counters for one pokemon in teambuilding as well as tech like Drain Punch Eelektross and Dazzling Gleam Jellicent, but it is a huge deal that these counters are different for each set and that this pokemon can get into the game at least three times relatively safely if played right.

Yes, I know it is slow and has weaknesses to be threatened out pretty easily, however does that really matter if you switch in once or twice and have gotten a KO and severely crippled something else? Forcing it out offensively is not the equivalent of an even trade when the opponent's guzzlord has already done its damage. Yes, I know that Guzzlord is very susceptible to entry hazards. However, my opinion is that if you are running a competent Guzzlord team you will have a very consistent hazard control core on your team. If not, I personally think you are running a bad Guzzlord team. A good player with a good hazard control core will do well enough in the game to still have Guzzlord get at least three opportunities to put in work. And yes, I have heard the arguments of it being the same idea as Drampa and Rampardos. However, I think where this argument goes wrong is the fact that neither Rampardos or Drampa also have the combination of stellar typing to get free switches as well as diverse sets to make a guessing game first switch-in. Drampa is very one-dimensional with its only truly difficult to counter set being its Choice Specs set, while, Guzzlord has Specs, Dragonium Z, and Band.

tldr; I will be voting ban on guzzlord due to its plethora of resistances, sets, and lack of reliable switchins. The cons are all workable enough for a Guzzlord user to thrive without sacrificing anything in teambuilding.
 
I feel like the timing of this Suspect is a bit weird but I guess I can give my thoughts here.

So Guzzlord. This thing has Fat bulk, Has very Few switchins, Has Multiple sets that make it nearly impossible to counter, Slow, Never sweeps.

Alright so let’s address these points

It’s Bulk- This thing is OHKOd by almost nothing outside of a Z move or boost.

Has no switchins- This Mon technically has no switchins to every set. Not even bronzor 0_0 shocker. But it is revenge killer Fairly easily tbh with a solid prediction.
Versatility- You can slap any choice move outside or Scarf on here and you have yourself a breaking threat. You can put an AV on it to make it extremely bulky. But a decent prediction and this this thing is venge killed fairly easily.
Speed- This basic set on this is designed to speed creep base 50 speed Pokémon so anything above Base 50 is outspeeding this. It’s a pretty slow mon
Inability to sweep- Guzzlord is a Breaker that picks up a kill or 2 for you and dies allowing a setup sweeper to sweep.

Final Conclusion

While Guzzlord is indeed a fantastic breaker it’s speed drags it down a bit and it is revenge killed easily. I am still on the fence on this Pokémon but right now I am leaning NO BAN
 

Specs

Leader of the cute user dibs fan club
is a Pre-Contributor
Just gonna go over my early thoughts on the suspect and what I think the result should be.

I'll start with the bulk Guzzlord has, which allows it to 1v1 offensive checks that it should in theory lose to. Primeape, Froslass, Stoutland (It's a roll heavily in Guzz's favor to live Superpower), Cryogonal, Scarf Aurorus, ect. I really don't like this aspect because we just don't have the defensive counter play for Guzz, so a lot of times you have to resort to offensive pressure. This has been a big problem in the tier, not being able to defensively check something and offensively checking not being a reliable option either. A counter point could be that you could just position yourself well to not allow Guzzlord in in the first place, however as we all know things can just not turn out the way you want. With how prevalent fat Volt-turn users are like Eelektross it isn't hard to just force a switch & Volt turn out into Guzzlord to pick up a KO. Or the fact that your whole game shouldn't be "Don't allow Guzzlord in ever." Not saying that every time you face Guzzlord you're that scared or weak to it but with how barren our defensive counter play is I don't think it would be a stretch to say that a lot of games you just can't allow it in. Point being I don't think the argument that you can just position well always pans out as cut and dry as it's made out to be.

The move pool and coverage is also something I think is pretty crazy. The dual stab of Dragon & Dark alone is really threatening in a tier where we have about 2 viable fairy types, making them very spammable on their own. As well as the overall coverage of Dark (Dark Pulse, Knock Off) Dragon (Draco Meteor, Outrage, Dragon Claw) Fighting (Drain Punch, Hammer Arm) Fire (Fire Blast) Poison (Sludge Bomb/Wave) & Steel (Heavy Slam) just make it an insane breaker. The 2 fairy types mentioned earlier being Clefairy & Silvally-Fairy don't switch into Sludge Bomb/Wave, Heavy Slam, or in Clefairy's case also risk getting Knocked which cripples it for the rest of the game. You can obviously only have 4 moves so you're not gonna see it have all of those coverage options on one set, however it's very risky to scout out Guzzlord's set as you cant afford to mess up once. Most of the time you just don't know what the set is by just looking at the team. Special Z, AV, Specs, Band, Physical Z, and to a lesser extent sub toxic & rest-talk are all possibilities and as mentioned before you cant mess around with scouting with how little defensive counter play we have. Overall I just think that the movepool is a bit too much for the tier to handle, and limits a lot of the adaptation we can make. Unless we want to continue to just try our best to offensively pressure it.

I was planning on writing more but I don't really have that much else to say. I don't think Guzzlord is insanely broken or anything of the sort, but I guess just some other points would be that it has taken advantage of a lot of meta trends/shifts like AV Hitmonchan being a lot worse and us getting back Ferroseed which pushes the spikes meta even more allowing Guzzlord to just break easier. It's also a relatively safe switch in for Guzz.

To sum it all up I think Guzzlord has bits and pieces of unhealthiness & brokenness, I'm on the ban side as of now but if my view or opinion changes during the suspect I might make another post replying to my own lol. Hope to see more discussion in here as I think there is a lot to unpack.
 
Last edited:
I haven't met the requirements yet so I won't be voting, but just wanted to lay out my views on Guzzlord. In the last 5 matches I played, I've encountered it on about four occasions, and only once have I lost *to* Guzzlord per se , in a game where I failed to read the correct set (possibly max attack and speed). On others, I have found it outmaneuvered by a Swords Dance Scyther and Superpower Aggron, among others. For a detailed analysis-
Pros:
•Massive coverage in Poison Jab/Sludge Wave/Bomb, Fire Blast, Heavy Slam and good STAB moves in Draco Meteor,Outrage,Dark Pulse and Knock Off
•Ability to run multiple sets that can offensively take out most of its counters
•HUGE HP. This is a tank that can survive at least one Super effective STAB move at full HP.
•In Beast Boost, an ability that lets it get going and score OHKOes after just one Knockout.
Cons:
•Very poor base speed of 50
•Large number of type weaknesses-Dragon, Ice,Bug,Fairy(4x),Fighting and vulnerable to entry hazards.
•Can never really be used as a sweeper due to lack of speed
As of now, I'm on the fence, but I believe that with the right set, Guzzlord can prove to be a premier offensive threat. It is, however , not without it's share of counters, including a +2 Scyther, Articuno (if Guzzlord does not carry Heavy Slam) and coverage moves from strong offensive Pokemon.


I forgot to add that when correctly predicted , Guzzlord can be revenge killed quite easily as well.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I would still like to share my reasoning for my current stance on whether guzzlord should be banned or not, since I can't seem to make up my mind on whether I want it banned or not. This is coming from someone who mainly plays stall, so I have seen my fair share of what a guzzlord can/can't do to bulkier teams.

Pros:

*It has a decently wide movepool on the physical spectrum, you get to choose a dark and dragon type move and then you can just go wild, it gets earthquake, stone edge, hammer arm and heavy slam/gyro ball for coverage, it also gets weaker versions of the stone edge and hammer arm that punish you less for using them.

*Very few switchins, most mons can't take two attacks from it after rocks, and the few that do usually don't have a very good recovery moves. It always 3hkos max defense, eviolite tangela after rocks without adamant nature and it always 3hkos regirock with an adamant nature. The special walls can do better, but still have to heal up directly afterwards unless they resist.

*It has alot of hp, we're talking third highest in the game, which leads to it not getting ko'd by many neutral or non stab super effective moves (unless they are fairy moves that is).

*Fantastic ability in beast boost, while it can't really use it to sweep, it can use it to break open slower teams.

*it works very well under webs, now that most mons are slow, it's main flaw gets kind of removed.

Cons:

*Invites in U-turners for a free U-turn, potentially giving the opponent alot of momentum and since scyther is a huge pain without stealth rocks, it can come back to bite you.

*Terrible type defensively, fairy(x4), bug, dragon, fighting and ice weaknesses.

*Can be worn down incredibly easily in drawn out battles, unless it breaks you early, it just dies.

*The special sets are very predictable, it's almost always specs (There are much better z mons out there)and it only has 5 viable special moves, ignoring weaker moves of the same type in fire blast, sludge wave, draco, dark pulse and hidden power.

*It's really slow, that 50 base speed let's it get revenge killed super easily.

I am currently for banning guzzlord, but I think I'm just being bias since 1 less breaker means 1 less thing to have to worry about when building a team.

Sorry for bad formatting, this is my first post :/.
 

Skipkan

pathetic excuse for a human being
is a Tiering Contributor
You have to post that in the alt identification thread, Shmoo MSnt : https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-pu-stage-7-guzzlord-suspect-test-alt-identification-thread.3652405/page-2

Anyway, here is a very short, low-quality post about my irrelevant thoughts:

I want just to point out that the bulk means it has ability to trade itself for something in almost every game (except vs stall ofc). It can come in and force a situation when its opponent can heavily damage it (basically = get rid of it bc its speed) at the cost of a valuable mon, like Primeape or Stout or sth. Often that valuable mon is too valuable, so opponent has to switch it out and take Guzz's attack. While every wallbreaker can force switches vs defensive mons + a few stronger ones, Guzz can force switches vs almost everything, while its healthy - which is the main thing that sets it apart from other wallbreakers, in my opinion. The meta also shifted a bit and there is nothing that would really force Guzzlords to run the not-banworthy AV set, so specs/Z-move sets do not really have drawbacks. Also its extremely splashable and I do not really like what does teambuilding with Guzzlord in the tier seem to turn into, so i will vote to ban.
 

Megazard

The turtle moves
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Top Team Rater Alumnus
PU Leader
It’s Bulk- This thing is OHKOd by almost nothing outside of a Z move or boost.
While Guzzlord is indeed a fantastic breaker it’s speed drags it down a bit and it is revenge killed easily. I am still on the fence on this Pokémon but right now I am leaning NO BAN
The contrast between these 2 statements is actually a good indicator of why I'm leaning ban at the moment. At first you say it's got great bulk and can't be OHKOd by much, but then you talk about it being revenge killed easily, and I don't find those entirely contradictory. The reason for that is that the metagame is trending hard towards the things that can take on Guzz, which are few and abusable. And honestly, I don't like what a Guzzlord-centric metagame looks like. It looks like a tier revolving around this one ridiculously good Pokemon which you can't switch into safely, the handful of things that can OHKO it, the handful of things that pivot into certain attacks, a few setup sweepers and scarfers, and hazards. Pretty much everything I use at this point makes me strongly consider Guzzlord well above any other Pokemon. I want to run Specs Simisear, time to format the rest of the team around Guzzlord. I can fit an Eelektross here, now I have some better pivoting vs special Guzzlord. I'm going to run Spikes support, better format the team so I can use them to pressure Guzzlord. Beyond Guzzlord just being stupid to switch into, I don't think having the PU tier revolve around this one threat is ideal.
 
I will be giving my reason for why I will be voting Ban on this suspect. After playing a bit more on the pu ladder, I have gotten a better understanding on what guzzlord can do against the meta and what it forces teams to do to beat it.

There are a few ways to deal with Guzzlord, the first and simplest way is obviously a fairy type move, the problem with this is that, the best fairy type in the tier, Clefairy, doesn't switch in on the physical variant and also doesn't OHKO with moonblast. Other pokemon with fairy type moves that do deal alot of damage, usually can't switch in, the exception to this is Silvally-fairy, which gets worn down pretty easily.

The safest option to beating a Guzzlord is by wearing it down with residual damage, like status and entry hazards, this is the safest way but it can be worked around. If the opponent has an Alolan-Sandslash, a mon I've started seing alot on the ladder recently paired with Guzzlord, certain counters can ever fold entirely. There are still counters to this strategy, mainly a specially defensive mon combined with a phyically defensive mon, both with knock off to beat all variants of Guzzlord, while knocking off the potential choice item and the alolan sandslashes leftovers, to easily wear it down later. My favourite two mons to do this with are Tangela and Audino, since both get regenerator, they can both safely pivot in on Guzzlord depending on the set, and slowly chip the combo down. This still gets beaten by physically offensive, mixed Guzzlord, since it just fireblasts/flamethrowers the tangela and outrages/knocks the Audino.

The best option, in my opinion, to beating a Guzzlord is just to revenge kill it, relying on one of it's three biggest flaws, it's terrible matchup against volt turn, it's terrible speed and it's horrible defensive typing. This is still not a safe way to beat it however, as stealth rocks can slowly chip down or even entirely beat the two pokemon and if the Guzzlord user has a bulky rocky helmet mon, the u-turner could also easily get chipped down.

I think that forcing a team to prepare this much for a Guzzlord kind of proves how centralising it really is, especially since most counters require two or more mons to even pull off, and a Guzzlord team is usually built around beating those checks. It is versatile enough that you never know what's coming, so it can catch you off guard with a different set than you expected, which can often lead to a fainted pokemon, if not prepared for accordingly.

Here are some calcs to see how much of a beating it can take.

252 Atk Choice Band Scyther U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 506-596 (77.8 - 91.6%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 518-610 (79.6 - 93.8%)
252+ SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Guzzlord: 518-612 (79.6 - 94.1%)
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 560-662 (86.1 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Froslass Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Guzzlord: 528-624 (81.2 - 96%)

Here are some calcs of what it can do to some bulkier pokemon.

252 Atk Choice Band Guzzlord Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 109-129 (32.6 - 38.6%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 226-267 (55.1 - 65.1%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Guzzlord Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Guzzlord Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 93-109 (31.8 - 37.3%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Cryogonal: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%)

Overall, guzzlord is a menacing force, which few flaws are easily removed with smart play and good teambuilding, which is why I will be voting Ban on this suspect test.
 
Last edited:
wassup fellads, im gonna make a quick post here to explain my opinions on the guzzinator and some key aspects to consider when voting. As the team with the best SM PUPL record (25-7), we managed to solidly grasp the meta pre-mesprit rising on the dedennes and so when it left, guzz immediately presented itself as an even more broken element than when it started.

The first key issue is how hard it is to revenge kill, we made full use of this in PUPL when a specs froslass did 45 on some weak shit in order to try and revenge kill guzz. In addition to this, its phys def especially when invested is frightening, meaning all the common fighters could never ohko it straight out the box. Given the tier has little to no fairies, with the fairies we do have being unable to switch into guzz and being over-loaded with its role (silv-fairy will want to defog regardless of whether guzz exists or not), its without fail gonna take down a mon with it at the very least. If the team is bulkier and thus getting more breaking opportunities, this effect multiplies and as a result the mon has so little reason NOT to use it. It feels like its always beneficial on every team.

Second key issue is physical vs special. A lot of people in the PU room has refuted that physical existed, but towards the end of PUPL, it was clear zmove guzz (whether phys or special) was getting used a whole lot more to aid breaking. Physical is particularly captivating atm, with knock being a great support move and zoutrage also being great for breaking straight up. special zdraco is not unfamiliar with the tier given drampa can do that, however there is tangible reason to never use drampa given that guzz is so much bulkier and so much harder to revenge kill as well as faster than therefore more efficient-i should add, this feels like the scarf pass vs scarf ape debate when they were in the tier, scarf ape seemed better on paper but once passimian began to get used, it was undoubtedbly superior and was as a result banned due to how hard it was to rk successfully. This mind game makes it inconsistent to play vs, imagine ur guzz check is av eel or av chan like it is on a bunch of teams and u get zoutrage'd, very not good considering PUs mixed def tanks dont exist. guzz has more room than ever to run zmoves as well given its not needed for defensive reasons anymore, and we saw this beginning to leak into PUPL.

last key issue with it is the meta holistically atm. Mesprit leaving, the main utility mon, the main fighting resist, the all-encompassing support mon, the tier has been left with a huge defensive void that is difficult to plug. It was the tiers main fast SRer, and what happens when u dont have that mandatory sr support in a fast medium, slow breakers will tend to thrive. Enter Guzzlord, with the another sr/spiker which it can incinerate called Ferroseed joining the tier and being a great mon to use in every other mu in this tier, guzzlord has more opportunities than ever to break. Add to this that resists to guzz dont actually exist, just checks which fail to rk it reasonably, and then its difficult to see this mon not get multiple breaks a game vs majority of teams, regardless of if they prepped for guzz or not. Best idea is to run spdef regirock and / or eel, make sure u dont over commit vs it and make sure all mons on ur team have a way of making sure they do damage vs it. Any other method of teambuilding basically means u get smoked.

In conclusion, bippy summed it up best in one of the recent untier talks where we talked about guzz. It stopped feeling like av hariyama when lilli was in the tier, and began to feel more like flame orb hariyama. Ideally we'd keep the balanced elements to it, but now it has so much freedom to inflict its misery on the tier, theres very little reason to use the balanced sets over the extremely efficient zmove sets which as we said are basically impossible to revenge kill reliably. its undeniably a strain on teambuilding and given that it plays even better in practice than it does on paper, there is literally 0 reason to keep it in the tier ESPECIALLY given our current scenario with the main boi leaving. BAN
 
Last edited:

Megazard

The turtle moves
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Top Team Rater Alumnus
PU Leader
This super low level of forum discussion has been par for the course ever since Discord got huge, and I'm partially to blame for that because all of my meta thoughts get dumped on a podcast rather than posted here. Still, I'm going to try to inject some life into a thread other than the VR by posting about some fun stuff I've used recently. I still don't build a lot and just generally hate building (free Mesprit) so I don't have a ton of new amazing things that are guaranteed to shake up the meta, but these are all worth looking into right now.
190294

Muk @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Poison Jab
- Fire Punch
- Protect / Brick Break

Muk as a general concept is really more important than the set, although this is what I was messing with (I've seen some SubPunch and special sets recently too, and AV definitely might just be better than this although I liked Toxic for Mudsdale). The reasoning here is as basic as Victreebel is annoying, what might take the pressure off, and there's very little other than Muk that really catches the eye on that front. Frankly it doesn't check much else, but it's still pretty alright because you can be decently annoying offensively and at least 1v1 a good amount of the tier even if you won't outright beat it.
190295

Sandslash-Alola @ Leftovers
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 248 HP / 212 SpD / 48 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off / Toxic / Whatever
- Protect
- Icicle Crash

Sandslash-Alola @ Lum Berry
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Earthquake / Rapid Spin / Stealth Rock
- Icicle Crash

SpDef Protect Alolaslash is a lot of fun, particularly with Scarf Primeape and Dodrio on the rise. On the other hand, SD Lum Knock is a great way to abuse Jellicent and Froslass. If you want to run Spin it becomes a lot more reliable at getting hazards off, but the lack of coverage can be annoying and I personally preferred it as more of a mid speed wallbreaker and check to random stuff. This is again less about the specific sets and more about the concept of Protect, Lum, and Knock. Slash in general just has a lot of depths I feel that people could start exploring, Knock at least is just really underrated.
190296

Criminally underrated, breaks everything, Scarf is fine, Sub is fine, Z move is probably ok, Pursuit is still annoying but not enough to not warrant using this. Oh and if you pair it with something like Omastar or SD Combusken, I wouldn't worry too much about Pursuit from CB Stout/Scarf Dod/the extremely rare Skunktank. That a few really strong setup sweepers can abuse every trapper if it ends up Pursuiting really ups how nice this mon is, although I was running it without that kind of setup sweeper and it's still just good.

So this is what I've been messing with recently, if this interested you maybe try posting your own stuff since this thread isn't just about suspects, it can just be overall meta thoughts and fun pokes and whatever. Obviously all of this could have gone in creative/underrated sets, but to me this post is less about the sets and more about what's improved since the Guzz/Mes loss. That being said, resuspects are absolutely something council is going to start looking at so I'd welcome thoughts on those too.
 
So yeah honestly I forgot this was a place where I can post things but yeah now that you reminded me, here is a "brief guide/analysis" on Fighting Spam right now, as I truly believe it is one of the best archetypes right now and I am a huge fan of it. ALSO just wanna say I really like the ideas above my post so yeah, nice my dude.
note: this post is geared towards newer players wanting to get into more specific team archetypes in PU, and this one specifically is about Fighting Spam. If this is well-received I will make more in the future of different archetypes.

Fighting Spam

190327
190324
190326
190323
190331
190350

Intro
Fighting Spam is in a fantastic place right now, though I think it always has been even when Mesprit was in the tier. If you don't know, Fighting Spam is basically the idea of using a core of two Fighting Types with the intent of breaking down the Fighting Type answers with one of the mons in the core in order for the other to sweep/clean lategame. This is largely successful due to the fact that the Fighting Types in this tier are very viable, and also often require a range of answers, meaning that when you are vs teams which only have one Fighting Type answer, or even two, these Fighting Spam cores can thrive.

Two Components of the Core
So the basic idea of Fighting Spam of course requires the dual-fighter core of two Fighting Type mons, and this also leaves two different roles in this core. They are...
1. The Breaker- The breaker is what the name implies, it is the part of the core which wears down the Fighting Type answers on the opposing team in order for the other role, the cleaner/sweeper, to finish out the game easier. The breaker will have some sort of way to get around its traditional checks and counters, whether it is coverage options or brute force. There are two main breakers used Fighting Spam, and two less-common ones which are still viable. Any one of them can work on a team depending on the build and the needs of the individual team being looked at.
2. The Sweeper/Cleaner- The sweeper or cleaner's objective is to use the offensive pressure exerted by the breaker to finish out the game with a win for the user. I say sweeper/cleaner because some of these options are classified as sweepers because they use a set-up move to become threatening and win the game, and one of the available options uses speed and raw damage output to clean up weakened teams rather than using a set-up move.

The Breaker- Options

190332

Hitmonchan
Hitmonchan @ Expert Belt / Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat / Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
- Mach Punch

Hitmonchan is one of the best breakers in Fighting Spam because of three major traits. The first is its coverage options+Iron Fist, because with this combination you have a powerful coverage option which blows away a huge percentage of traditional Fighting Type answers used on teams. Examples would be Oricorio-Sensu+Pom Pom, Golurk, and Victreebel being covered by Ice Punch, and Jellicent being covered by Thunder Punch. The second trait is its powerful priority move, Mach Punch. Mach Punch is amazing secondary speed control when it is boosted by Iron Fist+a boosting item such as Life Orb or Choice Band. This just really gives Hitmonchan some added utility as a breaker, which is always a nice benefit for any mon. The third is the fact that for whatever reason when people see Hitmonchan they still expect to see Rapid Spin+Assault Vest or Rapid Spin+Aguav Berry+Toxic. I am one who believes these are not the best sets right now and that this option is much better when using Hitmonchan, but as long as this idea that Hitmonchan doesn't have the extra moveslot for Ice Punch persists, that is how long Hitmonchan has an added surprise factor. Hitmonchan is often having things like Victreebel and Golurk switch in despite Hitmonchan having Ice Punch because people assume you don't run Ice Punch. This makes life so much easier for you during the match. Even if you are against an intelligent opponent and they don't give you a free Victreebel kill, Hitmonchan is still an insane offensive threat right now which only has a couple solid answers, being Musharna, Tangela, and Sableye. Sableye can tank two of any attack and cripple you with WoW. Musharna has reliable recovery and is not 2HKO'd by any of Hitmonchan's moves, and Tangela has the same traits as long as it is holding onto its eviolite. If you run Hitmonchan, make sure you consider these three threats when in the builder, as your team will lose if you don't find ways around Tangela, Musharna, and Sableye.

190335

Primeape @ Expert Belt / Choice Band / Fightinium Z
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Encore / Gunk Shot / Seed Bomb
Primeape is the other major breaker option in my opinion because of its coverage options combined with its potential to give you huge momentum swings. With Primeape, you still get to spam powerful CC's like Hitmonchan, and you also get great coverage options to deal with similar threats Hitmonchan deals with. There are a couple differences and one of them is that Hitmonchan has the perk of speed control with its priority move, while Primeape trades that in for the ability to gain momentum with U-turn and even Encore. This tradeoff is worth it for some teams, and not worth it for others, and largely depends on the build of the team for which is more valuable. However, another thing to consider too is that Primeape loses to different things. Primeape still for the most part loses to Tangela since even if you U-turn every time it switches in, you only do a maximum of 31% and Tangela will heal 33% every time it switches. Even with Choice Band Gunk Shot, you do 50% at most and with regenerator+the low PP+the miss chance, it is not a reliable way to take out Tangela. However, U-turn really does solve the Musharna issue if you play well, and depending on the coverage move used you still won't lose to Golurk and Jellicent. Finally, one interesting thing to note is this:
0 SpA Expert Belt Primeape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 202-238 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While I have never looked into this, on paper it looks like an interesting coverage option in the fourth slot if you want to take out Tangela, just realize you will need some prior damage on it to kill it with Close Combat+Overheat. Overall, Primeape is a solid choice if you want momentum+flexibility in what to break with your breaker. It also is the largely better choice on spikestack teams since it has Defiant+U-turn.

190337
190338

These are the two niche options available that still perform very well on Fighting Spam teams, but are definitely not as commonly used. Throh is used if you want to use a Choice Band Breaker like Hitmonchan or Primeape, but also don't have something to absorb status moves like Will-o-Wisp and Toxic. It also utilizes Knock Off on its set, meaning that you beat Tangela when played well. However, it is much slower than Hitmonchan and Primeape, and also does not have much added utility as a breaker besides having a little more bulk. Due to this, it sees less use, though it still is an available option for some teams.

Crabominable is an interesting case where you trade all utility for IMMENSE breaking potential. Crabominable is the definition of a breaker, capable of 2HKOing the entire tier, it literally has zero relevant switchins that I can think of. Crabominable also has the unique ability to beat Sableye, which is something none of the other options are capable of doing. The tradeoff is that it is extremely slow, and requires a large amount of prediction to be successful. Crabominable is a fantastic option if you feel like you are capable of making the power plays needed for it to outdo the other options, but oftentimes the utility of Hitmonchan and Primeape are just too much to pass up.

The Sweepers/Cleaners- Options

190340

Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up

It is no surprise that Gurdurr is one of the best available sweepers for this slot. It can run multiple EV spreads successfully, it has reliable priority aka speed control, it has knock off, a powerful set-up move in Bulk Up, the ability to absorb status, and a nice recovery option for longevity. One of its biggest weaknesses (there are not many) is that it does have a fair share of answers to it which need to be eliminated in order to sweep. Thankfully its job is to finish out the game when these threats are eliminated by the breaker, so really there isn't much here to say as far as weaknesses goes. It even knocks off the eviolite from Tangela so you can use breakers like Hitmonchan and Primeape easily in the core without having to worry about Tangela as much. Fantastic option, just make sure you have more speed control on your team than just Mach Punch.

190347

Primeape @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
- Gunk Shot / Earthquake / Seed Bomb


This is the cleaner side of this role, as it does not use a set-up move to finish the game. It instead uses its large speed and attack to finish, and it also has the added utility of grabbing momentum with U-turn, and having flexibility on what to hit in its last moveslot. The decision of this vs Gurdurr is largely team-dependent. Generally, Gurdurr is more useful when you need a blanket check to physical attackers, or a means of absorbing status. Primeape is more useful when you really need speed control too for role compression, or even if you just think the momentum with U-turn is a huge deal, because momentum is so important in PU. It also is typically a nicer option for hazard-stacking teams since it has Defiant+U-turn.

190348
190349

These options are still valid and usable, but they face a lot of competition from Gurdurr+Primeape. Throh is the option over Gurdurr when you are willing to trade the speed control and status absorption in order to beat the Unaware users (Pyukumuku and Quagsire) with Mold Breaker. It also 1v1's Gurdurr due to having access to Storm Throw, and that is a pretty relevant perk. If these are not issues though, I personally think Gurdurr is the better option to fulfill this role.

Combusken is even more niche in my opinion, because while it is a GREAT pokemon in PU, I don't see it fitting Fighting Spam very well. The main draw to using Combusken in these cores is that it does not have to use Thunder Punch at all when using a breaker that beats Jellicent, and it also has the ability to use Fightinium Z over Firium Z on Fighting Spam teams since the things Firium Z hits are typically things that are beaten by one of the breakers above, such as Oricorio-Pom Pom or a chipped Musharna. However, the fact that Combusken already has methods to beat traditional fighting answers the breakers are used to take out really questions the reasons to use it over things which benefit the support of the breaker more like Gurdurr and Primeape. Overall I think this is certainly an option to explore, but not the easiest choice or best choice on paper.

Core Example

190353
190352

Primeape @ Choice Band
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Seed Bomb

Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up


This in my opinion is one of the most common examples of a Fighting Spam core right now, as it uses the two most relevant Fighting Types in the tier currently. Gurdurr is the sweeper and loses to a large amount of Fighting answers in the tier, but also has the utility of Knock Off. With Knock Off available to cripple Tangela, Primeape can run Seed Bomb to surprise KO Golurk and Jellicent later in the game hopefully. This core covers every relevant Fighting answer except Sableye and probably some other random thing I am forgetting. The fact that this core has the added utility of speed control (Mach Punch), momentum potential (U-turn), and status absorption (Guts) is huge. This means the core adds many cool roles to the team compressed into two slots, and you have four other slots on the team to cover your weaknesses and the problem of Sableye.

Conclusion
Fighting Spam is fantastic, and it would be lovely to see more usage of such a cute archetype, as well as to maybe see some more exploration on the usage of Crabominable and Throh in this archetype. If you ever want help in building teams fitting in this category hit me up and I will gladly help you out. I may add an extra section later on useful teammates in the other four slots but for now this is all you get because my fingers hurt. This was really enjoyable to create and I hope you find use out of it, and if it does get good feedback I may create more mini-guides on underrated archetypes of PU in the future. Thanks for getting to this point of the post, if you did you are a real trooper and ily :heart:






 
Last edited:
So yeah honestly I forgot this was a place where I can post things but yeah now that you reminded me, here is a "brief guide/analysis" on Fighting Spam right now, as I truly believe it is one of the best archetypes right now and I am a huge fan of it. ALSO just wanna say I really like the ideas above my post so yeah, nice my dude.
note: this post is geared towards newer players wanting to get into more specific team archetypes in PU, and this one specifically is about Fighting Spam. If this is well-received I will make more in the future of different archetypes.

Fighting Spam

View attachment 190327View attachment 190324View attachment 190326View attachment 190323View attachment 190331View attachment 190350
Intro
Fighting Spam is in a fantastic place right now, though I think it always has been even when Mesprit was in the tier. If you don't know, Fighting Spam is basically the idea of using a core of two Fighting Types with the intent of breaking down the Fighting Type answers with one of the mons in the core in order for the other to sweep/clean lategame. This is largely successful due to the fact that the Fighting Types in this tier are very viable, and also often require a range of answers, meaning that when you are vs teams which only have one Fighting Type answer, or even two, these Fighting Spam cores can thrive.

Two Components of the Core
So the basic idea of Fighting Spam of course requires the dual-fighter core of two Fighting Type mons, and this also leaves two different roles in this core. They are...
1. The Breaker- The breaker is what the name implies, it is the part of the core which wears down the Fighting Type answers on the opposing team in order for the other role, the cleaner/sweeper, to finish out the game easier. The breaker will have some sort of way to get around its traditional checks and counters, whether it is coverage options or brute force. There are two main breakers used Fighting Spam, and two less-common ones which are still viable. Any one of them can work on a team depending on the build and the needs of the individual team being looked at.
2. The Sweeper/Cleaner- The sweeper or cleaner's objective is to use the offensive pressure exerted by the breaker to finish out the game with a win for the user. I say sweeper/cleaner because some of these options are classified as sweepers because they use a set-up move to become threatening and win the game, and one of the available options uses speed and raw damage output to clean up weakened teams rather than using a set-up move.

The Breaker- Options

View attachment 190332
Hitmonchan
Hitmonchan @ Expert Belt / Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat / Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
- Mach Punch

Hitmonchan is one of the best breakers in Fighting Spam because of three major traits. The first is its coverage options+Iron Fist, because with this combination you have a powerful coverage option which blows away a huge percentage of traditional Fighting Type answers used on teams. Examples would be Oricorio-Sensu+Pom Pom, Golurk, and Victreebel being covered by Ice Punch, and Jellicent being covered by Thunder Punch. The second trait is its powerful priority move, Mach Punch. Mach Punch is amazing secondary speed control when it is boosted by Iron Fist+a boosting item such as Life Orb or Choice Band. This just really gives Hitmonchan some added utility as a breaker, which is always a nice benefit for any mon. The third is the fact that for whatever reason when people see Hitmonchan they still expect to see Rapid Spin+Assault Vest or Rapid Spin+Aguav Berry+Toxic. I am one who believes these are not the best sets right now and that this option is much better when using Hitmonchan, but as long as this idea that Hitmonchan doesn't have the extra moveslot for Ice Punch persists, that is how long Hitmonchan has an added surprise factor. Hitmonchan is often having things like Victreebel and Golurk switch in despite Hitmonchan having Ice Punch because people assume you don't run Ice Punch. This makes life so much easier for you during the match. Even if you are against an intelligent opponent and they don't give you a free Victreebel kill, Hitmonchan is still an insane offensive threat right now which only has a couple solid answers, being Musharna, Tangela, and Sableye. Sableye can tank two of any attack and cripple you with WoW. Musharna has reliable recovery and is not 2HKO'd by any of Hitmonchan's moves, and Tangela has the same traits as long as it is holding onto its eviolite. If you run Hitmonchan, make sure you consider these three threats when in the builder, as your team will lose if you don't find ways around Tangela, Musharna, and Sableye.

View attachment 190335
Primeape @ Expert Belt / Choice Band / Fightinium Z
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Encore / Gunk Shot / Seed Bomb
Primeape is the other major breaker option in my opinion because of its coverage options combined with its potential to give you huge momentum swings. With Primeape, you still get to spam powerful CC's like Hitmonchan, and you also get great coverage options to deal with similar threats Hitmonchan deals with. There are a couple differences and one of them is that Hitmonchan has the perk of speed control with its priority move, while Primeape trades that in for the ability to gain momentum with U-turn and even Encore. This tradeoff is worth it for some teams, and not worth it for others, and largely depends on the build of the team for which is more valuable. However, another thing to consider too is that Primeape loses to different things. Primeape still for the most part loses to Tangela since even if you U-turn every time it switches in, you only do a maximum of 31% and Tangela will heal 33% every time it switches. Even with Choice Band Gunk Shot, you do 50% at most and with regenerator+the low PP+the miss chance, it is not a reliable way to take out Tangela. However, U-turn really does solve the Musharna issue if you play well, and depending on the coverage move used you still won't lose to Golurk and Jellicent. Finally, one interesting thing to note is this:
0 SpA Expert Belt Primeape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 202-238 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While I have never looked into this, on paper it looks like an interesting coverage option in the fourth slot if you want to take out Tangela, just realize you will need some prior damage on it to kill it with Close Combat+Overheat. Overall, Primeape is a solid choice if you want momentum+flexibility in what to break with your breaker. It also is the largely better choice on spikestack teams since it has Defiant+U-turn.

View attachment 190337View attachment 190338
These are the two niche options available that still perform very well on Fighting Spam teams, but are definitely not as commonly used. Throh is used if you want to use a Choice Band Breaker like Hitmonchan or Primeape, but also don't have something to absorb status moves like Will-o-Wisp and Toxic. It also utilizes Knock Off on its set, meaning that you beat Tangela when played well. However, it is much slower than Hitmonchan and Primeape, and also does not have much added utility as a breaker besides having a little more bulk. Due to this, it sees less use, though it still is an available option for some teams.

Crabominable is an interesting case where you trade all utility for IMMENSE breaking potential. Crabominable is the definition of a breaker, capable of 2HKOing the entire tier, it literally has zero relevant switchins that I can think of. Crabominable also has the unique ability to beat Sableye, which is something none of the other options are capable of doing. The tradeoff is that it is extremely slow, and requires a large amount of prediction to be successful. Crabominable is a fantastic option if you feel like you are capable of making the power plays needed for it to outdo the other options, but oftentimes the utility of Hitmonchan and Primeape are just too much to pass up.

The Sweepers/Cleaners- Options

View attachment 190340
Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up

It is no surprise that Gurdurr is one of the best available sweepers for this slot. It can run multiple EV spreads successfully, it has reliable priority aka speed control, it has knock off, a powerful set-up move in Bulk Up, the ability to absorb status, and a nice recovery option for longevity. One of its biggest weaknesses (there are not many) is that it does have a fair share of answers to it which need to be eliminated in order to sweep. Thankfully its job is to finish out the game when these threats are eliminated by the breaker, so really there isn't much here to say as far as weaknesses goes. It even knocks off the eviolite from Tangela so you can use breakers like Hitmonchan and Primeape easily in the core without having to worry about Tangela as much. Fantastic option, just make sure you have more speed control on your team than just Mach Punch.

View attachment 190347
Primeape @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
- Gunk Shot / Earthquake / Seed Bomb


This is the cleaner side of this role, as it does not use a set-up move to finish the game. It instead uses its large speed and attack to finish, and it also has the added utility of grabbing momentum with U-turn, and having flexibility on what to hit in its last moveslot. The decision of this vs Gurdurr is largely team-dependent. Generally, Gurdurr is more useful when you need a blanket check to physical attackers, or a means of absorbing status. Primeape is more useful when you really need speed control too for role compression, or even if you just think the momentum with U-turn is a huge deal, because momentum is so important in PU. It also is typically a nicer option for hazard-stacking teams since it has Defiant+U-turn.

View attachment 190348View attachment 190349
These options are still valid and usable, but they face a lot of competition from Gurdurr+Primeape. Throh is the option over Gurdurr when you are willing to trade the speed control and status absorption in order to beat the Unaware users (Pyukumuku and Quagsire) with Mold Breaker. It also 1v1's Gurdurr due to having access to Storm Throw, and that is a pretty relevant perk. If these are not issues though, I personally think Gurdurr is the better option to fulfill this role.

Combusken is even more niche in my opinion, because while it is a GREAT pokemon in PU, I don't see it fitting Fighting Spam very well. The main draw to using Combusken in these cores is that it does not have to use Thunder Punch at all when using a breaker that beats Jellicent, and it also has the ability to use Fightinium Z over Firium Z on Fighting Spam teams since the things Firium Z hits are typically things that are beaten by one of the breakers above, such as Oricorio-Pom Pom or a chipped Musharna. However, the fact that Combusken already has methods to beat traditional fighting answers the breakers are used to take out really questions the reasons to use it over things which benefit the support of the breaker more like Gurdurr and Primeape. Overall I think this is certainly an option to explore, but not the easiest choice or best choice on paper.

Core Example

View attachment 190353View attachment 190352
Primeape @ Choice Band
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Seed Bomb

Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up


This in my opinion is one of the most common examples of a Fighting Spam core right now, as it uses the two most relevant Fighting Types in the tier currently. Gurdurr is the sweeper and loses to a large amount of Fighting answers in the tier, but also has the utility of Knock Off. With Knock Off available to cripple Tangela, Primeape can run Seed Bomb to surprise KO Golurk and Jellicent later in the game hopefully. This core covers every relevant Fighting answer except Sableye and probably some other random thing I am forgetting. The fact that this core has the added utility of speed control (Mach Punch), momentum potential (U-turn), and status absorption (Guts) is huge. This means the core adds many cool roles to the team compressed into two slots, and you have four other slots on the team to cover your weaknesses and the problem of Sableye.

Conclusion
Fighting Spam is fantastic, and it would be lovely to see more usage of such a cute archetype, as well as to maybe see some more exploration on the usage of Crabominable and Throh in this archetype. If you ever want help in building teams fitting in this category hit me up and I will gladly help you out. I may add an extra section later on useful teammates in the other four slots but for now this is all you get because my fingers hurt. This was really enjoyable to create and I hope you find use out of it, and if it does get good feedback I may create more mini-guides on underrated archetypes of PU in the future. Thanks for getting to this point of the post, if you did you are a real trooper and ily :heart:






Thanks a lot for this! I needed a good Fighting type to partner my Guts Eviolite Gurdurr. Iron Fist Hitmonchan has been a godsend. Just as a thought, guts gurdurr w/drain punch when poisoned can OHKO or 2HKO most of its answers after a bulk up, so being poisoned isn't necessarily a bad thing if it's carrying guts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gum

Specs

Leader of the cute user dibs fan club
is a Pre-Contributor
2:30 AM and wanted to make a post about some mons I've been using for the meta atm and have been enjoying!

https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/xyani/crabominable.gif
(AV)

With all the Eelektross, Victreebel, and Hail going around I've found Crab very useful as a glue and just general special meta check. Struggles at times with Gurdurr still being very common but you get some nice chip on it (29 - 34 with Ice Hammer, 22 - 26 with Drain Punch) and it's not that hard to fit a Gurdurr check on builds. Common partners I've been using is Silvally-Fairy who is handy for the fightings and Crabominable for sure appreciates the Parting Shot Silvally provides. Gastrodon is another mon I've paired up with Crab. Being able to pivot into the fightings in the meta, lure in Vic and Eel to get a fairly easy pivot into Crab, and just being a decent physical meta check. Sadly I dont have many replays but my most recent vid on yt shows off Crabominable pretty well if u wanna check that out (USUM PU Laddering part 16 if it isn't my most recent when you're reading this.)

https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/xyani/flareon.gif

Flareon @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 208 SpD / 52 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Lava Plume
- Wish
- Protect

Speed for Spdef Alola-Slash to not get Eq'd if ur low enough in range.


I've been trying to get out of my comfort zone recently of just using what is established as good and trying to come up with some cool and nice mons to combat the meta (friends TJ Urusius and tlenit1 have been helping with that so s/o to them.) Pretty fun mon to check Victreebel most notably. (Until people start using physical more lol, which they should) It's not even that bad outside of just checking Vic, you switch into Eel very safely as well as come in on Froslass, Ferroseed, Tangela, Silvally Fairy, Rotom Frost, Scarf Aurorus, Abomasnow, ect. Not a great mon at all but just a fun little wish support mon that doesn't lose you momentum as hard as Audino does, and comes in on some top threats! Just make sure you have some solid removal to support it.

As far as general meta talk goes I don't have a ton to say, the meta is pretty diverse which is very nice. Building has become less of a chore, feels very expansive with counter measures to top threats and underrated threats. Victreebel maybe feels a bit overwhelming but nothing that we can't handle atm. I think open has showed off the diversity fairly well, and I'm excited to see what kind of things we see in Snake coming up!
 
Hey guys, just felt like posting my thoughts on PU and how the teambuilding effort has been going on my side.

1. I have a lot more freedom teambuilding than ever before.

In past metas and during my two years of playing the tier, there has been up and down moments when it comes to teambuilding. Sometimes in past metas I would have lots of motivation and ideas to build and sometimes like the last meta with mesprit, I would dread even looking at my teambuilder because building would be a tedious and long process. But no worries, this meta right now is probably the highest high of this generation. I really do believe Mesprit leaving was a beneficial thing for the tier as a whole and there's been more innovation than ever before. I feel like I'm using mons I've never used before just because nothing really looks awful right now (obviously aside from actual unmons) but niche stuff like Simipour (which I'll discuss further down) and others which have brought me success. I'm generally happy playing this tier again.

2. Cool Pokemon you should try out.

Victreebel @ Grassium Z
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Poison Jab
- Sucker Punch

Like Specs said above, people should try to dabble into physical Victreebel. It may not have the high power STAB like the special set does but Leaf Blade + z crystal does good damage. SD is the star of this set, being an efficient wallbreaker due to the fact it can force switches from common pokemon in the tier like Regirock, Mudsdale and Tangela and proceed to set up. It has Sucker Punch to deal with faster threats like Dodrio and by running Jolly, you do not lose to Stoutland and beat it with Bloom Doom and also beat other base 70s that are problematic like Ludicolo.


Golurk @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Shadow Punch
- Ice Punch

Golurk isn't anything new but this mon is one of the best Primeape/AV chan checks around thanks to its Ghost/Ground typing. It's also a good rocker atm and has good matchups against other rockers like Metang, Aggron and Regirock. My only problem I have with Golurk is that its not particularly bulky like other rockers and has common weaknesses, which means you often find yourself using damage-reduction berries like Colbur so you don't lose to Skuntank 1v1, Yache so offensive alolaslash doesn't beat you or even Kasib Berry (which I've tried once) to try to handle Oricorio-Sensu.


Simipour @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast

I believe Nasty Plot Simipour does the plotting of evil the best out of all the Simis right now. Simisear is nice and all but I've often found it harder to sweep with it because it's a fire type, meaning its rock weak and is weak to our most common rockers Regi and Muds. Simipour is the opposite, not weak to rock, and is a water type, meaning it often forces out those rockers and proceeds to Nasty Plot up and kill something. You are probably wondering, wheres Grass Knot but unfortunately, there's no space for it. I choose to hit Ferroseed instead of Lanturn or Jellicent. It's up to preference to be honest with you but if you have partners to deal with Waters then im running Focus Blast.

3. Here's my most successful team as of now.
Victreebel @ Grassium Z
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Poison Jab
- Sucker Punch

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Giga Drain

Regirock @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Drain Punch
- Toxic

Silvally-Fairy @ Fairy Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 48 HP / 208 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Defog
- Parting Shot
- Multi-Attack
- Flamethrower

Eelektross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Volt Switch
- Knock Off
- Giga Drain
- Flamethrower

Aurorus @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Rock]

I opened my teambuilder a couple of days ago and I wanted to use Victreebel, one of our most scariest wallbreakers in the tier right now. At first, I went straight for the special set because it's the most threatening. Then I thought about our other resident grass-type Ludicolo, which is also threatening in its own right and that's when Grass Spam began. I realised I didn't want my grass types to attack on the same side of the spectrum or they'd get walled by the same stuff so I opted for SD Victreebel, which breaks through special walls like Eelektross and Hitmonchan while Ludicolo broke down stuff like Gurdurr and Tangela easier. After that, the rest of the team came together. Regi as the rocker due to the fact Water and grass types were handled by the grass core, Fairyvally as the fighting check and pivot so I can get the grass spam going alongside Eelektross, which is one of the best pivots in the meta and adds some special bulk to the team then a scarf Aurorus because I wanted a hard hitting revenge killer.

Thanks for reading guys, it's honestly great to see so much activity as of late and I'm excited to see where the meta is going to end up. I for one am having lots of fun and a lot of other people are as well, which is awesome. Hit me up on Showdown if you like the team!
 
So, the other day I decided to make a team featuring Calm Mind Musharna, as it's a Pokemon I haven't used since the Alpha stage and I like bulky sweepers. So far it's been way better than I thought it would be: I've played 30 matches with it so far, and I've only lost 3 times, making for a 90% win rate.
musharna peak.png




Importable and description
 

glock in my toyota

formerly ~Volbeatdown~
Leafeon Shiny sprite from Black & White

Leafeon @ Bluk Berry
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Natural Gift

Wanted to re-use something that I had a lot of fun with in Gen 6 PU, which was Natural Gift Leafeon. Natural Gift Fire lets Leafeon lure and break through a lot of the checks to the two most common sets, like SD Z-Double-Edge, and Z-Celebrate. It is slightly unfortunate that Watmel Berry is still unreleased in Gen 7, but Bluk Berry does a good job replacing it, only suffering in a drop from 100BP to 90BP. Most teams dont carry more than one solid check to this thing, so it can oftentimes strong-arm its way through a majority of builds on its own, using Natural Gift to break through the likes of Ferroseed and Defensive A-Slash. It also serves as a fantastic partner to Banded Stoutland, as it greatly benefits not only from Leafeon's ability to bust through these 2 prominent defensive Steel-Types, but also from Leafeon's natural ability to take advantage of common Stoutland checks/counters, like Mudsdale, Regirock, and Defensive Carracosta. Bonus points to Leafeon for also being a really cool asset against opposing Sun teams!

I've been having a ton of fun with this little core, and think that Natural Gift Leafeon is definitely something worth playing around with. One of the coolest lures I've used so far in Gen 7.
 

yogi

some kind of monster
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
ok so thought i'd make a post since this thread is kinda dead. rn i'm not the biggest fan of the meta. i've heard ppl say that building feels freer since mesprits departure but i couldn't disagree more. eel and victreebel, along with other major meta threats, make building feel as restrictive as ever.

:sm/eelektross:
this pokemon is by far the biggest contributor to meta shifts. if you looked up free momentum in the dictionary it'd just be a picture of this pokemon. able to abuse pretty much everything in the meta one way or another, eelektross is probably the best pokemon in pu. do i think it's a problem, well yes. i'd go far enough to say it warps a large portion of the meta around it, with pokemon running specific sets or evs to tackle it. i've watched a load of games where it's eel vs eel leads (especially in snake) just so they can either not lose momentum or cripple/chip the other eel without it fucking with the rest of their team. essentially having no true counterplay eel really can be put on absolutely every team bar stall with no downsides to using it ever, similar to mesprit really.

:sm/victreebel:
holy hell this thing is everywhere. i hate seeing and playing versus this pokemon. similar to eel but of course to a lesser extent, this pokemon can be put on a load of different teams with very little downsides to doing so. several viable sets ranging from helmet to physcial and special z, victreebel has cemented itself as probably the best a+ rank pokemon in the meta right now. being able to blow through most checks with stuff like z power whip and strength sap making it one of the best fighting-type checks in the meta, it's hard to not see how incredible this pokemon is. it's also another large contributing factor to building restrictions, and absolutely helps put a spotlight on how diverse and strong our offensive threats are in the meta.

will post a bit more tomorrow on the overall meta but just wanted to share my thoughts on those two to start
 
1568343436999.png

I just wanted to continue the discussion on Eelektross, because I personally think it is kinda unhealthy right now how powerful this mon has gotten. I am not saying that we should definitely suspect it or ban it or anything, however I do think there is lot's of reason to ask ourselves that question and have a discussion about it, because Eelektross has become dominant and meta-defining.

If there was one word you give to Eelektross, it is momentum. What role does momentum play in the metagame? Short answer is that it plays a HUGE role. Momentum means having control of the match, being the one in the driver's seat. It means making the opponent play defensively and making the plays that you want to make and execute the game plan you want to execute. Momentum is the equivalent of having an advantageous matchup with the pokemon on the field in a given moment, and using that advantage to make a play that will cripple the opposition. Momentum is something that is usually earned and rewarding in a match.

When Eelektross is successfully brought into the match, there is very little stopping it from granting a huge momentum swing in the user's favor. With Volt Switch and access to beautiful coverage in Giga Drain+Flamethrower, there are literally zero viable mons which are immune to volt switch and threaten Eelektross out. What this means is that there is no counterplay to stopping the momentum Eelektross generates once it is in the game safely, apart from well-played doubles which risk your Mudsdale or Lanturn getting it's item knocked off or Giga Drained. It has gotten to such a gross level of free momentum that people counter Eelektross by trying to run their own Eelektross and abuse it better. People even lower the speed IV's below 31 to try to underspeed opposing Eelektross and outpivot it.

Free momentum with no counterplay is not TERRIBLE for the meta (though definitely controversial), as long as it is hard to get yourself in a position to do so. However, Eelektross is actually bulky enough to where you can almost always lead with Eelektross and get free momentum right at the start of the game, with little to no drawback. The exception to this is bringing a powerful physical breaker such as Aggron or Stoutland, or a select few special breakers like Drampa, but if your team cannot fit this you are honestly out of luck. This is when you resort to leading with your own Eel and hoping your IV's underspeed the opposing Eel's IV's. We have seen multiple Eel vs Eel matchups in the beginning of snake games already because everyone uses Eelektross for the most part, and if you don't lead with it you are at a disadvantage. Eelektross also can switch into things like Mudsdale relatively free and get more free momentum, and this is really easy when the opposing Mudsdale is setting up stealth rocks. This is also just one of many things you switch into for free, with other things being Oricorios, Swanna, and Lanturn. So what i am trying to get across to you is this: Eelektross gives free momentum with no counterplay and it is very easy to get yourself into the position to gain this momentum multiple times in the match.

The only other way to deal with Eelektross besides to just try your best to outplay it and use your own Eelektross is by creating a team that massively pressures Eelektross to a point where it does not come in for free. This is very restrictive though because this automatically removes Oricorio-Pom Pom or Sensu from the question, Mudsdale, even stuff like Regirock and Metang honestly. It is very limited as to what you can build while trying to keep Eelektross 100% pressured, often forcing teams with Mudsale or Regirock anyways and just running that Eelektross of your own.

It has reached a point where almost every team could benefit from Eelektross and is almost at a disadvantage by not using it. Yes, you can have a strong breaker like Stoutland and you can even just have a really offensive team to pressure it, but at the end of the day if you are running balance with a strong breaker there will still be plenty of opportunities for Eelektross to get free momentum from the other 5 mons on the team. While it doesn't have recovery and can get weakened fairly quickly, by the time it is dead it has probably entered the game at least 3 times, meaning free moments of free momentum to do something big in the game. The meta is momentum-centric and eel-centric, and while I don't necessarily think that it means we need to ban eel I do think it is something to discuss and think about. Is Eelektross becoming too much? I am really curious to see other opinions on this.

Discussion Questions i'm interested in

1. How do you personally counter Eelektross in the builder, and what counterplay do you expect to have in games vs it?

2. Cores such as Muds/Vic/Eel are becoming very very popular. What do you think is the cause of this, and what is Eel's role in it?

3. What is your thoughts on the common Eel vs Eel lead and do you think this reflects the dominance of Eel, or something else?

4. Do you think Eelektross is unhealthy?

---

of course this is all just my own thoughts/opinions and i am sure there are many who disagree as this is a controversial PU topic rn I would say. I am not saying we should suspect Eelektross, but I do think having discussion on this is reasonable and if that is something people reach a conclusion on, cool. I just want to see more thoughts/opinions on it because it is the elephant in the room rn.

 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top