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whistle said:
re: rp steelix: shared weaknesses + slow without set up tbh is just asking for something fast and/or with decent offenses and/or especially rain dance / sun to just run you over. dunno why you would use steelix over rhyperior or aggron at all.
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As stated by Roflkip, RP Steelix is not a sweeper, merely a lure. No-one will be switching Moltres into Golem, since a Stone Edge is a likely possibility. They will, however, switch Moltres into Steelix - expecting more supportive moves such as Stealth Rock, or a measly Gyro Ball.

Here are some calcs to show the power:
Crunch vs Subcharge Rotom: 95.9% - 113.2% Guaranteed OHKO with SR
Stone Edge vs Subcharge Rotom: 59.9% - 70.7% Guaranteed 2HKO regardless
Rock Slide vs LO Moltres: 119.6% - 142.1% Guaranteed OHKO regardless
Rock Slide vs Staller Moltres: 91.9% - 108.6% Guaranteed OHKO with SR
Explosion vs Bulky Water Milotic: 123.9% - 145.8% Guaranteed OHKO regardless
Earthquake vs Offensive Milotic: 63.6% - 75.3% Guaranteed 2HKO regardless
Earthquake vs Subseed Venusaur: 48.4% - 57.1% Guaranteed 2HKO with SR
Earthquake vs Offensive Venusaur: 67.8% - 79.7% Guaranteed 2HKO regardless
Explosion vs Subseed Venusaur: 161% - 189.6% Lol

Defensive:
LO Venusaur Power Whip: 34.9% - 41.1%
LO Venusaur Earthquake: 38.4% - 45.9%
LO Scyther Brick Break: 35.6% - 42.5%
Subcharge Rotom HP Fighting: 60.3% - 71.2%
 
I've noticed that Spiritomb is getting more popular (again) and that they're all physical. This pisses me off as it's pretty much the only road block to a Zam sweep, but my Houndoom enjoys setting up on it.

So yeah, Restalk Moltres is kinda LOLworthy but not that bad. And instead of running Yawn on my Blastoise I'm running a lot of Special Attack ev's with Modest to 2HKO Mismagius and Rotom and after they're gone I'm guaranteed the spin, it's pretty sexy.

And I just got completely trolled by the SubPunch Lopunny set I wrote. It paralyzed like half my team and as soon as I went to Chansey to Aromatherapy it set up a Sub and it Focus Punched so I was forced to switch. ;_;
 
Alchemator said:
As stated by Roflkip, RP Steelix is not a sweeper, merely a lure. No-one will be switching Moltres into Golem, since a Stone Edge is a likely possibility. They will, however, switch Moltres into Steelix - expecting more supportive moves such as Stealth Rock, or a measly Gyro Ball.

Here are some calcs to show the power:
Crunch vs Subcharge Rotom: 95.9% - 113.2% Guaranteed OHKO with SR
Stone Edge vs Subcharge Rotom: 59.9% - 70.7% Guaranteed OHKO regardless
Rock Slide vs LO Moltres: 119.6% - 142.1% Guaranteed OHKO regardless
Rock Slide vs Staller Moltres: 91.9% - 108.6% Guaranteed OHKO with SR
Explosion vs Bulky Water Milotic: 123.9% - 145.8% Guaranteed OHKO regardless
Earthquake vs Offensive Milotic: 63.6% - 75.3% Guaranteed 2HKO regardless
Earthquake vs Subseed Venusaur: 48.4% - 57.1% Guaranteed 2HKO with SR
Earthquake vs Offensive Venusaur: 67.8% - 79.7% Guaranteed 2HKO regardless
Explosion vs Subseed Venusaur: 161% - 189.6% Lol

Defensive:
LO Venusaur Power Whip: 34.9% - 41.1%
LO Venusaur Earthquake: 38.4% - 45.9%
LO Scyther Brick Break: 35.6% - 42.5%
Subcharge Rotom HP Fighting: 60.3% - 71.2%
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so steelix basically does worse against every common response response to rock polish ground types when compared to rhyperior aggron or golem. if you like blowing your sweepers up golem can do that and still do more damage against common targets (such as ohko offensive venusaur after SR while steelix can only 2hko and it can leaf storm or sleep you in return). steelix is a lure... but only until they see rock polish. who is going to leave their 4x rock weak pokemon against a pokemon whose primary typing (ground) is commonly paired with rock attacks when used offensively? after moltres switches into rock polish, it switches out to donphan or torterra or claydol on the stone edge unless you are playing someone horrible; not only is your surprise gone, but you haven't killed anything AND you are left with an inferior sweeper on your hands.
 
Re: The whole polish thing.

If you're gonna use two polishers, just go with Torterra and Rhyperior. Both can take on different stuff (Torty on water to some extent and Perior on Flyers), one's limited list of counters is likely to be either defeated or severely hurt by the other (except for Weezing because he's a double dickhead), both have the Ground STABs, access to QuakeEdge and awesome abilities. Now I'll be using Ice Beam Milotic with EVs to outspeed Torterra.
 
Anachronism said:
Regarding Moltres, there needs to be a better fire/rock than fucking Magcargo... that typing destroys the standard set. I realized the other day that Fire/Rock beats the set, and then I looked at Magcargo's stats, and I was sad :(
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Magcargo is really quite good with the right support. I used it on a sandstorm team and it was pretty damn hard to kill - 50/120/80 defenses aren't bad when you consider sandstorm's SpD boost. There is nothing in the game that walls the standard Moltres and Arcanine sets so hard, and it can take on quite a few other things such as Ambipom, Scyther, Leafeon, Spiritomb, etc. My favourite thing about it is the fact that you can bring it into any resisted physical attack and have a 30% chance to completely cripple their attacker with Flame Body - bring it in on Ambipom's Fake Out and then it will inevitably use U-turn, so you get two 30% shots at ruining their pokemon. You can do this with things like Venusaur and Absol as well if you bring it in on the non-super effective attack, since you get your nice 30% chance to burn and wear them down with LO and sandstorm damage.

I ran a set of Lava Plume / Toxic / Recover / Hidden Power Rock, but you can easily use Stealth Rock in the last slot as well since Magcargo gets so many opportunities to come in and force a switch against the standard team. It also makes a great bulky water lure ala lead Arcanine, meaning you can get that Toxic on their Milotic / Slowbro / Slowking early on and then wear them down with SR / toxic / sandstorm damage until they can't wall the things they counter any more. Obviously Magcargo is an extreme niche Pokemon and requires good support in order to work at all (eg sandstorm and Hitmontop spin support) but if you give it this it does a very specific job extremely well.

On another note, I've found the effectiveness of Houndoom + Toxicroak to have taken a dip over the last day or so. So many people are using it now that it's become all-too-predictable: you can use Milotic's Ice Beam on Houndoom and hit incoming Toxicroak for a decent amount, and your Weezing's Sludge Bomb on Toxicroak and catch Houndoom coming in. It worked great while people didn't expect it quite so much though.

I've been enjoying quite a bit of success with a status spreading team that lets CB Rhyperior absolutely demolish everything. Thunder Wave Uxie and double powder Exeggutor can spread paralysis around a team incredibly easily, meaning Rhyperior can pull off a sweep more often than not. Also, don't listen to anybody else - CB Rhyperior's last slot should not have Aqua Tail / Rock Blast / Rock Wrecker or anything but Rock Slide. The slightly more reliable accuracy and more PP matters quite a bit when you want to pull off a sweep against paralyzed Moltres, Mismagius, Houndoom, etc.
 
whistle said:
so steelix basically does worse against every common response response to rock polish ground types when compared to rhyperior aggron or golem. if you like blowing your sweepers up golem can do that and still do more damage against common targets (such as ohko offensive venusaur after SR while steelix can only 2hko and it can leaf storm or sleep you in return). steelix is a lure... but only until they see rock polish. who is going to leave their 4x rock weak pokemon against a pokemon whose primary typing (ground) is commonly paired with rock attacks when used offensively? after moltres switches into rock polish, it switches out to donphan or torterra or claydol on the stone edge unless you are playing someone horrible; not only is your surprise gone, but you haven't killed anything AND you are left with an inferior sweeper on your hands.
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Mainly people don't realise the speed that Steelix hits, obviously the surprise factor goes away and it's an inferior Rhyperior etc but it still packs quite a punch.

Steelix also has better typing than Golem.
 
Pizzadude said:
And yes, the variety is pretty high this round, and there isnt a stereotypical team yet. And Toxicroak is really everywhere, and it has many viable sets, so it's pretty dangerous.
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Now that I think about it, a lot of the times in which I [played/lost] a Toxicroak swept me. Maybe I just need time to rethink how I play this metagame. In the meantime I have a few birthday presents to play that I haven't been able to for months for various reasons. I should also get around to finishing FF7... (so many distractions in that game) Also I just realized that the Krilowatt test is still ongoing.

Thund said:
Lol I ran RP Steelix on a SS team and I would always get a kick out of it when Moltres would switch in thinking 'lol still outsped' only to be OHKO'd.
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Ironically, when I ran into RP Steelix, my Moltres was Scarfed ^_^

I've just started noticing that there has been more NUs used then there were babies from thepost-WWII baby boom. Some are actually putting up a challenge or at least a unique fight. This is getting pretty cool.
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No, it's not cool :'( Seriously, though, it ironically gets rather boring when your reaction to every team ends up being: "OMG WTF IS THAT? WTF IT USED CURSE/CM!?!? OH THANK GOD FOR THAT CRIT!"

bring it in on Ambipom's Fake Out and then it will inevitably use U-turn
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Who'd do that if they knew Magcargo's ability? I doubt I would.
 
whistle said:
so steelix basically does worse against every common response response to rock polish ground types when compared to rhyperior aggron or golem. if you like blowing your sweepers up golem can do that and still do more damage against common targets (such as ohko offensive venusaur after SR while steelix can only 2hko and it can leaf storm or sleep you in return). steelix is a lure... but only until they see rock polish. who is going to leave their 4x rock weak pokemon against a pokemon whose primary typing (ground) is commonly paired with rock attacks when used offensively? after moltres switches into rock polish, it switches out to donphan or torterra or claydol on the stone edge unless you are playing someone horrible; not only is your surprise gone, but you haven't killed anything AND you are left with an inferior sweeper on your hands.
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Youre right, if that's what you're going for steelix is outclassed. You use rplix because of its typing which grants it two immunitites along with resistance to many common sweepers total sets. It is it's typing that gives it a special niche against other polishers. It can actually switch out (o.o) and get another basically free switch (wish support, anyone?) and have fun doing decemt damage to Milo/venu. When you're done playing the game, explode on the Venu/Milotic/other that is in on you and have fun with sweepers that can take advantage of it. I definitely would use perior/Terra most of the time, but rplix has a niche on some teams. (on iTouch, long post to write lol)
 
Did people forget about RP Magnet Rise Aggron?

IMO is still pretty viable when it comes to Rock Polishing because very few things can force him out. Water types mainly, but unlike Rhyperior Aggron doesn't give a damn about Bulky ground types.
(Ice Punch > Aqua Tail simply because hitting Torterra is very useful. You still 3HKO Rhyperior as it fails to 3HKO back with Stone Edge)

I haven't personally tried but running Passho Berry RP Aggron / RP Steelix to lure and weaken/KO opposing counters to RP Rhyperior is awesome.

Edit: Apparently bulky Milotic needs to invest a ton of speed just to outspeed CB Aggron. (About 86 speed EV's) yet I see that I'm being outsped still. Should I just run Adamant? Max speed Adamant Aggron still outspeeds most bulky waters (Blastoise and Milotic are exceptions) you hit the incoming switch in a lot harder.
 
Wow, the metagame must be really diverse...
I mean, RP Steelix. wat

Even RP Rampardos is better (Weezing? Meets EQ).
You could even put a huge damage on anything with a LO Head Smash coming off a 165 base attack (dealing a OHKO on Milotic with SR).

The only difference is that Rampardos has almost no opportunities to RP with that crap defense... (but hey, it outspeeds Milotic and friends. So just fire off a Head Smash and watch something die... yourself included).


If you're gonna use two polishers, just go with Torterra and Rhyperior. Both can take on different stuff (Torty on water to some extent and Perior on Flyers), one's limited list of counters is likely to be either defeated or severely hurt by the other (except for Weezing because he's a double dickhead)
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Don't forget Tangrowth, who takes a Megahorn from Rhyperior and walls Torterra to no end.
 
M BLADE said:
Don't forget Tangrowth, who takes a Megahorn from Rhyperior and walls Torterra to no end.
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i was trolling a few dayss ago with a Mixed Torterra set and it was funny!! I got the 2HKO on tangrowth and leafeon and the OHKO on Altaria after SR lol but the expression ppl gave me, they thought i was a noob hahaha...and Leaf Storm is kinda deadly as well, YES woodhammer does more but no recoil saved me sometimes when i needed to take out rhyperior, aggron, and milotic without losing a ton of HP lol it was really just too much fun running that set as everyone switched in their altaria, tangrowth and leafeon
 
Well, i'm finally using Rampardos (slapped it on one of my teams).

I must say: Sub SD Rampardos is quite nice.
Mold Breaker is perfect fot the occasion. QuakeEdge is only resisted by Torterra.

The advantages over Rhyperior (since i know someone will mention it) is superior speed and power (STAB on EQ is nice, but Mold Breaker more than compensates that). Being able to outspeed bulky waters and OHKO them with a SD Stone Edge is good.

It is a nightmare for stall teams to face too.
 
M BLADE said:
Well, i'm finally using Rampardos (slapped it on one of my teams).

I must say: Sub SD Rampardos is quite nice.
Mold Breaker is perfect fot the occasion. QuakeEdge is only resisted by Torterra.

The advantages over Rhyperior (since i know someone will mention it) is superior speed and power (STAB on EQ is nice, but Mold Breaker more than compensates that). Being able to outspeed bulky waters and OHKO them with a SD Stone Edge is good.

It is a nightmare for stall teams to face too.
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How does SubSD work? I haven't tried it out, but I'd think that Rampy really loves being behind the safety of a Sub, especially against the average team that has quite a few pokemon faster than it. With SD, you basically throw away the Sub in return for doubling his already massive attack. Sure, this lets it break through walls like a wrecking ball, but it also leaves it wide open for revenging, which shouldn't be that difficult with its pitiful defenses and rather slow speed. With that ridiculous attack, I think that it could hit hard enough without an SD boost to make short work of many walls.

Sub is always a great move, and on something like Rampardos that could cause switching out of fear of Scarf or just a powerful hit, it can buy a free hit on the switch. A Sub +3 attacks set may be somewhat viable, forcing switches and then smacking around whatever comes in:

Rampardos @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Adamant
252 Attack, Speed, 4 HP
-EQ
-Stone Edge/Head Smash
-Fire Punch
-Sub
 
Fire Punch is only for Torterra. It isn't worth it, since QuakeEdge coming from Rampardos hits everything "better" thanks to Mold Breaker.

To simplify:
Ramaprdos comes in on something slower/not strong enough, Sub on the switch. It the opponent is slower, SD. If not, attack.

Since Fire Punch is "useless" on Rampardos, i still recomend SD (or Rock Polish. or even Avalanche who will OHKO said Torterra, and hits some shit like Donphan and Claydol really hard).

With SD you put some pressure on stall teams, which is a nice plus.
 
Speaking of slow but powerful Pokemon, I made a paralysis team centered around a Sub + 3 attacks Marowak. Rock Slide the Flyers/Levitators, and Double Edge those Tangrowth/Leafeon/Weezing. Earthquake handles everything else. I've only played 1 match with it today though so I don't know how effective it is yet, needs more testing.
 
In a metagame where everybody knows what every pokemon on their team takes from every attack of Moltres, I've found it can really screw people up to pass it just a single Calm Mind (and sometimes a Salac boost) from Espeon. Moltres, with decent bulk and huge power, makes a great baton passing target. It's not the easiest thing in the world to pull off, but when you do it's a Belly Drum-like event. What else do you guys think would be an ideal recipient of Calm Mind in UU? Particularly, who can be passed to relatively easily and can do huge damage with a single Calm Mind. Also, what else is good for passing Calm Mind right now?

other recipients I thought of are Milotic, whose Life Orb set becomes monstrous with a Calm Mind and speed boost, and SubSeed Sceptile, who can use the increased special stats to beat Sludge Bomb Venusaur, and then SubSeed unopposed or sweep with +1 Overgrow Energy Ball and Hidden Power.
 
I'm seeing a huge SD Scyther weakness on many teams i faced today.
Rather easy to get a SD when paired with Yawn Blastoise, especially with Toxicroak everywhere (and it spins for Scyther too).
Not many are packing Rhyperior/Regirock nowadays, to it makes life easier for it.

About CM pass: Nidoking is one of the best recipients, since it doesn't mind anything Chansey might throw at it, and it has the huge movepool too.
Blaziken is also good with Vacuum Wave to hit faster pokes.
 
M BLADE said:
Fire Punch is only for Torterra. It isn't worth it, since QuakeEdge coming from Rampardos hits everything "better" thanks to Mold Breaker.

To simplify:
Ramaprdos comes in on something slower/not strong enough, Sub on the switch. It the opponent is slower, SD. If not, attack.

Since Fire Punch is "useless" on Rampardos, i still recomend SD (or Rock Polish. or even Avalanche who will OHKO said Torterra, and hits some shit like Donphan and Claydol really hard).

With SD you put some pressure on stall teams, which is a nice plus.
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I don't agree. Subbing then attacking twice does just as much damage as a +2 attack. (other than leftovers) I'd rather just stick with an extra coverage move if you're running LO or lefties or whatever.

However, I do agree with SD and a Salac Berry. Sub allows you to easily activate your salac and sweep with +1 spe and +2 attack. Alternatively you could run rock polish + liechi. Both sound fun!
 
a +2 poke helps you to put some pressure on the enemy like i mentioned. And with para support it becomes vital.


I use Sub SD with Leftovers and para support coming from Clefable, though Salac can work better without para support.
 
Sub truly is one of the best moves in this metagame for sure (Didn't play the other so can't say.) It is up there with encore and trick imo. And by throwing sub on something you get that extra hit with eased prediction which makes the game much easier when you don't have to guess.
 
Ok, these gimmicks are starting to get a tad bit crazy even for moi. ScarfLeafeon lead, like really? But one of the cool ones I've seen was a lvl 1 Kanga Endeavor lead. Scrappy makes it pretty awesome.
 
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