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np: UU - Here It Goes Again

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Has anyone noticed that it's much easier to break the offensive characteristic than the DC? No wonder Stall is dominant, with all the hardest-hitting sweepers being banned.

This. If you keep banning hard-hitting Pokemon just because they can hit hard, then no shit stall is going to become more powerful.

But although I think a lack of common sense among some members is partially to blame, I think this is somewhat unfair as I believe the main culprit is the fact that the current definitions of the characteristics assume that offense and defense are purely analogous, which is false. IMO the offensive characteristic is a little too lenient whilst the defensive characteristic is noticeably harsh. The two may have been close to analogous back in ADV, but there can be no doubt that D/P is a different kettle of fish altogether, and Surgo's timeless post about no longer being able to counter everything sums it up quite nicely.

It's difficult because the definitions have to be somewhat vague to allow for a necessary degree of flexibility and subjectivity, but there can be no doubt in my mind that they are a little misleading and outdated in their current form, and I say that with no disrespect intended at those who came up with them. It just required putting the idea thoroughly through its paces to identify the problem.

That said, I have never personally had any problems with stall in UU, although I cannot vouch at all for the last month or so since the suspect removal. Most of my success in this regard has been with Fire and Fighting Pokemon; Blaziken, Toxicroak and Houndoom have been especially effective for me in the past, but also stuff like Feraligatr and Honchkrow (didn't agree with the nomination, but can't argue with it) have been very effective. The doubling up on counters technique works just as well in UU as OU in my experience. I think part of the problem is also the idea that being anti-metagame is somehow a taboo, yet it has been almost my entire philosophy, and has given me plenty of success when I've been able to play consistently.
 
Shaymin really didn't break stall all that well. First of all, nearly all stall teams carried Chansey, which stops Shaymin cold. Then they always had two or three back-up counters, like Altaria, Crobat, or Roserade.

Why doesn't everyone just run a Blaziken if they're so concerned about stall? Just ditch Vacuum Wave and give it Stone Edge (and get another Absol check), and now you can suddenly put a huge amount of pressure on stall. If you can bring down even one or two Pokemon, a well-built offensive team should have no problems bringing down stall.

Likewise, Pursuit or Explosion work well to weaken a key Pokemon on a stall team which opens it up for a sweep from your Pokemon.
 
Duggy would be something id be really glad to see in UU. It's not like stall teams will get completely demolished like some people are saying though. Shed shells do exist you know(not suggesting you equip every pokemon with it just suggesting the possibility). Also you make it seem as though dugtrio is some sort of beast. It has what base 80 attack? that isnt enough to KO a lot of the pokes in UU stall teams. Hell the only thing i can see it threatening is...what weakened pokes and chansey?

I'm pretty sure CB Duggy would be able to take out Roserade who also seems to be on all stall teams. Anyway, yeah, the main advantage I can see is killing Chansey, which even if that's the only thing it can take down, is still an enormous achievement.

Why doesn't everyone just run a Blaziken if they're so concerned about stall? Just ditch Vacuum Wave and give it Stone Edge (and get another Absol check), and now you can suddenly put a huge amount of pressure on stall. If you can bring down even one or two Pokemon, a well-built offensive team should have no problems bringing down stall.

Blaziken isn't some kind of auto-win against stall......that, and I really, really do not want to be forced to either run Blaziken on every team or run stall myself in order to be competitive. That's just annoying.
 
Dugtrio would be great in UU. It would be broken especially when defensive Steel-types are very common in UU. People would run Adamant Dugtrios with Choice Band just to destroy Stall Teams.
 
Registeel lacks Chansey's reliable recovery and can't wall fire types.

Umbreon's biggest disadvantage is the inability to stop Yanmega.

Clefable's defenses are just plain worse. 95 Hp / 90 SpD does not at all match up against 250 Hp / 105 SpD.
All very true but these are just the disadvantages. They all have advantages to go with them, such as Umbreon being able to beat Missy, or Clefable/Registeel, uhh, well, being able to do a number of things (unlike Chansey and Umbreon)

I also believe aromatherapy shaymin or sub seed shaymin were used by a number of stall teams, I don't think removing him is exactly a glorious victory for many stall teams
 
I don't understand why everyone thinks stall can only run just a few select pokes. There's actually a good ammount of variety in stall pokes you can run. Hypno anyone? It stops Blaziken too. Noctowl is good as well. It can stop Missy and Roserade. Psycho shifting burn is awesome.

I really want someone to give me this list of 8-10 pokemon that stall is restricted too.
 
Hypno is not that reliable, I wouldn't count on it. Assuming you come in on Super Power followed by Fire Blast you would have a hard time surviving.

252 SpA Fire Blast vs 252 HP / 200 SpD Hypno - 45.19% - 53.21%
72 Atk vs 252 HP / 50 Def Hypno - 34.49% - 40.91%
w/ SR I'm pretty sure its a good chance Hypno won't be surviving. This is the first stall breaker EV spread if people opt (like me) for the 240 / 252 one, Hypno will die in heartbeat assuming SR is down. If you want to be unique, Slowking is a better Blaziken counter and is perhaps the best after Altaria
 
All very true but these are just the disadvantages. They all have advantages to go with them, such as Umbreon being able to beat Missy, or Clefable/Registeel, uhh, well, being able to do a number of things (unlike Chansey and Umbreon)

I also believe aromatherapy shaymin or sub seed shaymin were used by a number of stall teams, I don't think removing him is exactly a glorious victory for many stall teams

Umbreon beating Missy is much less important than Chansey beating Yanmega, since Altaria can take care of Missy anyway, whereas there are no better answers against Yanmega.

Clefable gets most of the same support options that Chansey does, the main advantage I can see there is that it can actually use special attacks if it wants, and isn't ruined by T-spikes. Those both seem pretty weak compared to Chansey having much better actual defenses.

I don't see what Registeel can do that Chansey can't, besides explode, which I'm gonna venture to say is an unappealing option for a stall team. Indeed Chansey seems the more versatile one out of those two, it can use Aromatherapy and Wish.
 
god guys stop bitching about stall. it's not broken. i think a bigger problem is that better people play stall, therefore your average uu player can't break it. really, so many things are so so effective vs stall. subseeders, mixed attackers, encorers, taunters, u turners, lures, and more. hell, on my current team my most potent sweeper is a lomega. i have no mixed attackers. no taunts. no spinner. yet i fare well against stall.

i'm having lots of success with clefable. clefable is just so good, and so versatile. i personally run encore / stoss / t wave / softboiled with a specially defensive ev spread to give me another yanmega check (we talk about yanmega later). registeel + slowbro + clefable is so awesome. add in something that can take an emergency fighting attack or something to beat blaziken or lomoltres and you're good to go. i often end up with 4 of the opponents pokemon paralyzed by this core, and they are unable to break it while i subseed them to death with torterra. speaking of torterra, please use him. subseed, rock polish, whatever, he is so good. he easily beats spiritomb, slowbro, and most bulky pokemon that can break his massive subs. his stabs have 100 and 120 base power, the latter is boosted to 270 after overgrow.

and yanmega. yanmega is so ridiculous. if you aren't using yanmega, and you don't run stall, you are an absolute fool. seriously, i have been down 3-1 and 4-1, but the opponent's yanmega checks are so worn down that i'm free to sweep them. now here's a combo for you to use. hitmontop or hitmonlee + yanmega. i prefer hitmonlee for the extra speed and power, but that's me. think about what can beat yanmega one on one. clefable, registeel, absol, chansey. what do those have in common? a fighting weak, and an easily exploitable one at that. now what can beat hitmonlee? slowbro, claydol, hitmontop, and the like. oh wow it looks like yanmega can sweep all of those with no problem at all! imo yanmega should be a suspect.

uu atm is very very interesting. fun to play. it's hard to make a team that fares well against all types of teams. i've seen a few attempts at heavy offense, all met a swift doom by my defensive core. i hope crobat goes, honch might have to go because he's just that damn powerful, and shaymin can stay or go, it doesnt matter. next round, i predict yanmega and chansey get nominated. yanmega because he is plain overpowered, and chansey because if you cant beat stall, then instead of craft your team to fare better against it, you will completely eliminate. go team of 6 special sweepers. chansey will stay in uu.
 
man bad ass stop stealing my teams jerk

I've been using Medicham / Yanmega / Torterra as an offensive core for a while, and it's been pretty much fantastic. Yanmega rips teams open like a beast, and what it doesn't kill gets cleaned up by Medicham and Torterra.
 
Umbreon beating Missy is much less important than Chansey beating Yanmega, since Altaria can take care of Missy anyway, whereas there are no better answers against Yanmega.

Clefable gets most of the same support options that Chansey does, the main advantage I can see there is that it can actually use special attacks if it wants, and isn't ruined by T-spikes. Those both seem pretty weak compared to Chansey having much better actual defenses.

I don't see what Registeel can do that Chansey can't, besides explode, which I'm gonna venture to say is an unappealing option for a stall team. Indeed Chansey seems the more versatile one out of those two, it can use Aromatherapy and Wish.
Yes Yanmega countering is better, largely due to the fact that there is a case to be made for Yanmega belonging in BL that is much stronger than the one for Missy.

Clefable can wish, and also encore, trick, attack specially or physically. Although understandably trick may not be the most desirable move on a stall team, but Encore is a big deal.

I'm not saying that Chansey is not really good bro, but she's not the only special wall in the whole tier...
 
What's a good EV spread for Subroost Moltres in UU? I'm testing it on my new team. I'm currently using a completely arbitrary 252 HP/ 56 Def/ 200 Spdef Calm nature, to take Yanmega and Mismagius assaults a bit better if Registeel is too weak.

Absol with Pursuit is awesome. Very few people expect it on Absol, and as a result their Chansey got KOed.

I'm really frustrated because I have a very unreliable internet connection, it's playing havok with my rating. I believe I'm barely 1600 at the moment. Gah....
 
On my superstar stall team, I used Umbreon as my main special wall. The big benefit of this is that Umbreon takes junk damage from Pursuit, meaning that it can always switch out of opposing pursuiters for free, unlike Chansey.
 
Altaria.

My stall team (and this was back when the suspects were allowed) was Crobat / Umbreon / Steelix / Scarf Roserade / Hariyama / Altaria. Altaria was my all-purpose check, as it basically beat out everything that caused severe wallbreaking troubles, such as Yanmega, Blaziken, etc.
 
OMG Why is honchkrow uu!??

Smogon why? <_< Same goes for uxie, mesprit, shaymin, crobat, suicune, blaizikin, typhlosion etc etc we know which ones I'm talking about! Smogon my endure flailing leafeon can kill scarftrans and what do you do!? Dump him into Nu like a rotten tomato onto the compost heap... :'(

Not forgetting poor old articuno... :'( So sad.
 
Absol with Pursuit is awesome. Very few people expect it on Absol, and as a result their Chansey got KOed

This. I have always packed Life orb w/ Pursuit to nab me a Chansey, this is very good accomplishment because those special sweepers have an easier time hurting things without worrying about Chansey.
 
OMG Why is honchkrow uu!??

Smogon why? <_< Same goes for uxie, mesprit, shaymin, crobat, suicune, blaizikin, typhlosion etc etc we know which ones I'm talking about! Smogon my endure flailing leafeon can kill scarftrans and what do you do!? Dump him into Nu like a rotten tomato onto the compost heap... :'(

Not forgetting poor old articuno... :'( So sad.

honchkrow is currently limbo (not uu or bl, being tested as a suspect.)

Shaymin and Crobat are also both limbo ... and Suicune is OU and has been OU since DP.

Don't blame anyone for Pokemon dropping to NU, it's not how we feel that decides nu tiering, its the usage of the pokemon. usually the strength and the usage do have a correlation but yeah, its only usage that decides it.

for more information on the uu suspect test, you should probably read the entire threads as well as search for the other uu suspect threads. everything can be explained there and its a good read as well, especially if you are bored.
 
OMG Why is honchkrow uu!??

Smogon why? <_< Same goes for uxie, mesprit, shaymin, crobat, suicune, blaizikin, typhlosion etc etc we know which ones I'm talking about! Smogon my endure flailing leafeon can kill scarftrans and what do you do!? Dump him into Nu like a rotten tomato onto the compost heap... :'(

Not forgetting poor old articuno... :'( So sad.

If we do it your way, we'll have about 100 OUs, which is a little bit ridiculous, don't you think?

It may seem weird how the tiering is done, so I suggest looking around the forum to find out more about the tiering process. When you understand it better, it shouldn't seem so strange.
 
You do know balance involves using a couple stall breakers right? That's the idea of balanced. A little bit of offense, a little bit of defense.

Some good balance pokemon are Roserade, Life Orb Milotic and Mismagius. And yes, if you run a team like this adding something like Absol or Blaziken can really go a long way for a balanced team.
 
jabba, you're totally right. i lost my cool for a second :x. lots of things can break stall, i was just being an idiot with that post. SD Absol is amazing versus any type of team, as is mismagius.

has anyone tried SD kabutops out of the rain? the thing is an absolute monster. stone edge and waterfall pretty much destroys all the walls, and aqua jet is amazing vs offense. i suggest you try it if you're having stall problems, as it ohkoed every member of stall with an SD (except registeel. it even ohkoes scarfrotom with +2 aqua jet if sr is down!)
 
jesus balance is fucking impossible to do. i have a good balance team, it does so well vs every type of team, except fucking stall. i played noob stall with stuff like wigglytuff as the main special wall, and i still didnt win. i played offense and got raped by everything not named stall. i guess you really do need a blaziken or absol on your team. and what sucks is i can't do stall myself. i guess adding in a sd kabutops / absol or blaziken wont hurt the team that much...

That was me. And I don't see what's so noob about Wigglytuff, it managed to beat you didn't it?

Calm your balls.
 
*cough* all you guys who complain stall is broken as hell or overcentralizing the metagame.. should just vote Roserade as a suspect. It is a standard spiker/cleric for stall teams. Also a real good option on any offensive teams

edit: to poster above.. LO Shaymin was the reason why it was nominated as a suspect. SubSeed was easy to counter.. just use your own shaymin.
 
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