np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head

[Ekanselttar]

Moltres isn't in that league by a longshot. Before we start claiming the conditions under which it can ruin a team, we need to consider the amount of effort those conditions require. Maintaining multiple layers of entry hazards as well as spinning them out requires a lot of support and a lot of effort, which is reason enough to believe that it shouldn't even be considered for BL.

I'm a tad late for most of the Moltres talk, but QFT. This was the basis of my voting paragraph: It's true that it can threaten most of UU with the right support, but you're devoting half a team (spiker, spinner, rocker, spinblocker [or spiker, donphan, and spinblocker {No, Froslass only does one of those tasks}]) to supporting the burning turkey, and a lot of other mons can threaten pretty well if you're that devoted to them.

Another flaw in the moltres + support argument is that spikes/rocks are either common battle conditions, or they aren't. If they are, you can assume that Moltres loses half its health every time it switches in and has effective defenses of 10/90/85 unless it Roosts. If they aren't, then, well, Moltres doesn't threaten everything.

Still a very nice bulky-ish special attacker. And that's it, because, really, even a LO Air Slash can't overpower Chansey.

 

[shrang]

Jumpluff is by far the most annoying pokemon ever. Subseeding is such a pain because you can't break it's subs with u-turn I honestly have no idea how it is NU when it was BL in advance

I quite agree. Jumpluff is one of the most overlooked Pokemon ever. Until people realise it's the best SubSeeder that can Sleep Powder and Encore (Victreebel is the other one), meaning she is in no way outclassed by Sceptile or even Shaymin-S if you just want to look at Speed alone. It was OU in GSC too =P

 

[Heysup]

(spiker, spinner, rocker, spinblocker [or spiker, donphan, and spinblocker {No, Froslass only does one of those tasks}])
Another flaw in the moltres + support argument is that spikes/rocks are either common battle conditions, or they aren't.

So you need to devote Froslass and Donphan? That's not saying much, too be honest. What makes the "combo" broken is that this support is common battle conditions solely because of Froslass. Froslass is, whether we like it or not, factually able to set up on a huge amount of Pokemon while also being able to switch into Donphan and beat it while also reliably stopping other spinners, at least to the point that they are too weak to Spin anymore. It does this to some degree at least. This is why Froslass is the broken aspect of the combination, not Moltres. Moltres, without these conditions (Froslass), does not meet any characteristic.

 

[ZandgaiaX]

Why lose to them? Hariyama can take Fake Out + Return, even Life Orbed; and KO back.

And Jumpluff still beats Hariyama with Fake Out, as it can Encore you and get a free Sleep Powder/ U-turn on another mon.

The fake out is for letting flame/toxic orb take place (I use those ye), then Hariyama can beat jumpluff. Not sooner, (Note, I use CC/Payback/Facade/Fakeout)

 

[Stellar]

The point that Bluewind was trying to make (at least I think...) is that after Hariyama uses Fake Out, Jumpluff can Encore the next turn forcing Hariyama to use Fake Out again (which will fail because it isn't being used on the first turn it is on the field).

 

[PK Gaming]

I quite agree. Jumpluff is one of the most overlooked Pokemon ever. Until people realise it's the best SubSeeder that can Sleep Powder and Encore (Victreebel is the other one), meaning she is in no way outclassed by Sceptile or even Shaymin-S if you just want to look at Speed alone. It was OU in GSC too =P

I say let things be. The fact that is NU is a good thing as not many people use them. If Jumpluff was top 10, UU would be be hell on earth.

 

[End Fashion]

Too bad Froslass speed ties and usually f***s it >:(

Pretty much my sole reason for being so resentful about Froslass still being in UU.

 

[Delko]

Problem is that Jumpluff is completely walled by Grass type pokemon whereas the likes Sceptile can still use Hidden Power (fire/ ice) or X-scizzor.

 

[Heysup]

Problem is that Jumpluff is completely walled by Grass type pokemon whereas the likes Sceptile can still use Hidden Power (fire/ ice) or X-scizzor.

Would you not trade SpA for Sleep Powder on a SubSeeder? I certainly would.

However the reason I would use Sceptile is for the combination of higher SpA, Speed, and mainly its neutrality to Stealth Rock.

 

[Bluewind]

The point that Bluewind was trying to make (at least I think...) is that after Hariyama uses Fake Out, Jumpluff can Encore the next turn forcing Hariyama to use Fake Out again (which will fail because it isn't being used on the first turn it is on the field).

Pretty much that =)

 

[Delko]

The downside of Sleep Powder however is Sleep Clause. After a pokemon has been put to sleep a Grass type can come in to wall Jumpluff not to mention the fact that Taunt completely stops Jumpluff. That's why I always have an attack move on Subseeders. In my UU team I lead with Jumpluff because she makes a great anti lead because my opponent cannot get his SR/ Spikes down or his Dual Screen up. But I taught it U-turn over Substitute so that it can still put pokemon to sleep/ Encore, Leech Seed it but also have one move that could do at least some damage (don't expect it to OHKO something like Uxie but it has it's advanages). It's a bonus that U-turn is Bug typed and so SE against Grass. And to be honest I haven't thought once to replace U-turn with Substitute.

 

[Stagnant]

Any knowledgeable player would not keep Hariyama in after Fake Out against ANY Encore user (exception of outspeeding them).

 

[Delko]

Hariyama could Fake Out to activate Flame/ Toxic Orb and Bullet Punch on the predicted Encore.

 

[Stellar]

The fake out is for letting flame/toxic orb take place (I use those ye), then Hariyama can beat jumpluff. Not sooner, (Note, I use CC/Payback/Facade/Fakeout)

As you can tell by his post, his set does not have Bullet Punch and he claims that after Fake Out, Hariyama can beat Jumpluff. That would suggest that he is not going to switch out.

We were speaking in response to ZandgaiaX and not towards that matchup as a whole.

 

[Bluewind]

I find facade rather odd tbh... you can't beat DBond Froslass (even though by now they just switch out anyways...), it makes you much more succetiple to other sash leads, like Sharpedo and such; and means you lose to leads like Cloyster, as they'll go boom on your face, whereas Bullet Punch would give you the chance of finishing Cloyster after CC damage.

 

[Stagnant]

Hariyama and Jumpluff are both terrible leads regardless. I don't understand why Hariyama got an analysis. I've personally only used him once or twice in the lead position and have seen a handful of others use him. If he doesn't beat the lead (happens everytime) he loses and if he switches out, he becomes dead weight.

He should stick to the SubPunch set IMO.

 

[Delko]

Jumpluff actually makes a quite effective lead. The leads that are used in Stall teams (Uxie, Omastar, Cloyster, ...) are all put to sleep so they are unable to get Stealth Rock or (Toxic) Spikes up. These entry hazzards are a great deal on stall teams. Dual Screen Pokemon do not get their screens up so Hyper Offensive teams will get more vurnerable. I'm posting my UU team soon which has a Jumpluff lead and is quite succesfull.

Hariyama makes a decent lead as well. With Fake Out and Toxic/ Flame Orb it is protected from other status and he can actually do some decent damage to the majority of UU leads who are mostly just pokemon that set up SR.

 

[Bluewind]

Hariyama and Jumpluff are both terrible leads regardless. I don't understand why Hariyama got an analysis. I've personally only used him once or twice in the lead position and have seen a handful of others use him. If he doesn't beat the lead (happens everytime) he loses and if he switches out, he becomes dead weight.

He should stick to the SubPunch set IMO.

If you can't use Hariyama properly, don't flame it; and if other people are using and sticking to it, I believe it's because they are actually having success with it.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Jumpluff actually makes a quite effective lead. The leads that are used in Stall teams (Uxie, Omastar, Cloyster, ...) are all put to sleep so they are unable to get Stealth Rock or (Toxic) Spikes up.

Against Cloyster, you're either carrying a Sash and praying that you don't miss, or you get OHKO'd by Ice Shard. Even in the best case scenario you have 1 HP left.

As for Hariyama, it can function very well as a lead, but only because it also has extensive use outside of the lead position, unlike many anti-leads that serve their lead purpose then are pretty much throwaway after the first few turns. As an anti-lead, Hariyama does adequately, particularly against Froslass, but has a few problems with others like Uxie and Alakazam. As far as anti-leads in that mold go, the best I have ever used in UU is Spiritomb, who dominates almost every other lead (including Hariyama) whilst serving a significant purpose in the later stages of the match as well.

 

[Heysup]

I simply cannot imagine using any lead except for a Choice Scarf Sleep user at this point, Venusaur being my main choice.

I mean, without it, you let Rain set up, you let Froslass set up one layer at least, you let bulky Pokemon set up, etc. I really cannot imagine using a lead such as Hariyama or even Spiritomb and get lol'd at by Rain Dance and Froslass users (Sash leads don't really care about either; they get a layer and switch out while you're not setting up any hazards to stop them from coming back in later).

If you want to stop set up, you basically need to use something like Scarf Venusaur. This is why I hate the Froslass metagame....and while Rain isn't "that" big of a problem, it makes it even more restrictive.

 

[Delko]

Against Cloyster, you're either carrying a Sash and praying that you don't miss, or you get OHKO'd by Ice Shard. Even in the best case scenario you have 1 HP left.

Standard lead Cloyster (no Atk EV's) does 62.1% - 74.6% damage to 252 HP Jumpluff. This means that a Focus Sash isn't needed. Leftovers is much more appreciated especially when Jumpluff needs to switch in on Stealth Rock every time. Besides I have been using a Jumpluff lead for about 2 months now and Ice Shard Cloyster isn't really common.

EDIT: Only when Cloyster has an Adamant nature and 252 Atk EV's it has a chance of OHKO'ing Jumpluff (88.1% - 105.1%).

EDIT 2: Jumpluff speed ties with Froslass (if she is Timid and has 252 Spe EV's) so you can put her to sleep 50% of the times.

EDIT 3: When Cloyster has an Adamant nature and 252 Atk EV's and is holding a Life Orb then it's a sure OHKO (115.3% - 135.6%) but that is a very rare sight.

 

[Heysup]

Standard lead Cloyster (no Atk EV's) does 62.1% - 74.6% damage to 252 HP Jumpluff. This means that a Focus Sash isn't needed. Leftovers is much more appreciated especially when Jumpluff needs to switch in on Stealth Rock every time. Besides I have been using a Jumpluff lead for about 2 months now and Ice Shard Cloyster isn't really common.

EDIT: Only when Cloyster has an Adamant nature and 252 Atk EV's it has a chance of OHKO'ing Jumpluff (88.1% - 105.1%).

You forgot Life Orb.

And it's actually 37.5% to Sleep Froslass when factoring in misses. Are you seriously going to risk that?

 

[Stagnant]

If you can't use Hariyama properly, don't flame it; and if other people are using and sticking to it, I believe it's because they are actually having success with it.

First off, how could one misuse a Hariyama lead? You fake out, then your next attack is straight forward. As Heysup said, Pokemon that setup... still get to setup, Ambipom still gets off 2 hits on you, Electrode still gets to Rain Dance, or Uxie will still get up SR and U-Turn out. People are using it because they like the idea of a non-standard lead. In all honesty, there are much better leads to be used.

As I see it, Lead Hariyama is like BellyDrum Hariyama, it looks good on paper but doesn't surmount crap.

 

[Delko]

And it's actually 37.5% to Sleep Froslass when factoring in misses. Are you seriously going to risk that?

Well normally I don't, I just go to CB Drapion and hit Froslass hard with Pursuit. Froslass is a spiker, but quite often she is also the main (if not the only) spin blocker so with Froslass out of the way her Spikes can be spun away later.

 

[Heysup]

First off, how could one misuse a Hariyama lead? You fake out, then your next attack is straight forward. As Heysup said, Pokemon that setup... still get to setup, Ambipom still gets off 2 hits on you, Electrode still gets to Rain Dance, or Uxie will still get up SR and U-Turn out. People are using it because they like the idea of a non-standard lead. In all honesty, there are much better leads to be used.

As I see it, Lead Hariyama is like BellyDrum Hariyama, it looks good on paper but doesn't surmount crap.

Well in my opinion Hariyama should never ever be used as a "lead", and the term "lead Hariyama" is misleading. Hariyama is good at filling it's unique niche on a team. However, the fact that it functions "decently" in the lead position means that you don't need to sacrifice another member of your team to be a dedicated lead. This is why Hariyama is a legitimate lead, not because it's "great", because it isn't, but because it's "ok" and it allows you to have a better core than something like Scarf Venusaur would.