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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head

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I remember Hariyama doing good the first match, but that's because I was simply not expecting a "poor" type-coverage set without Ice Punch / Stone Edge. However it was quite easy to recover from, all I remember happening is that I sent out Raikou and it was 4-4 and you dc'd.

The second match I simply Leaf Storm and switched out to Azumaril and KOed your switch in, and eventually Scyther came out and.....you dc'd.

It is a good Anti-Venusaur lead, but you can really ask anyone who uses a Scarf Venusaur lead (read: probably only me) that Hariyama is really not a big deal to lose against. I carry Scyther (who is a flawless switch in now that I know you run Fake Out, CC, Payback, and Bullet Punch) on one of my teams, and Moltres on the other. Not a big deal at all really. I'm not even doing this to "prepare" for Hariyama.

1) True, but suprise factor can be anything in certain game (I take a slight note to my energyball lead jirachi)
2)Simply? Vena still took Fake out damage. And a good player would use payback. To make sure Vena can only switch in 1 more time when it switched out.
3)True, it's an excellent Anti-Venusaur/Jumpluff(When used well) even Persian (Lol) and ambipom to an extent.
4)You're not the only one, I've seen 2 more players today on ladder with scarfvena (Copycats)
5)Scyther ain't a good switch, next time I battle you. I know you'll use scyther >.<
6)Scyther ain't a good switch: Yes it can come after a kill (Revenge killer), or maybe a closecombat. But it'll obtain still quite big damage for 4x resist:
Leadhariyama with flameorb active (252 att Evs) closecombat vs Standard Sweeper Scyther (3xS) (Min/Min): 28.1% - 33.1%
Then:
Leadhariyama with flameorb active (252 att Evs) bulletpunch vs Standard Sweeper Scyther (Min/Min): 25.3% - 29.9%
then AA or a SD. Either way, if Leadvena used Leafstorm. Hariyama will die (Even if Scyther uses SD or something). But Scyther is left with around 40%.
But Scyther can also QA, resulting in Hariyama's KO. Still scyther lost around 26% of it's health.
 
P.S. You are Ex Point on Shoddy right?
Yep, thats me.

Heysup, don't you run a +Spe Nature on your Scarf Venusaur? If so, how is that working out? What are the advantages aside from outrunning Electrode in the lead?
 
And all users of Hariyama aren't robots either. If I believe that Froslass is going to switch out i'm gonna choose another move (most likely Close Combat cause it can hit pretty much anything hard). If it wasn't effective I wouldn't have made it my one and only lead on my Paramore team. And I find it a bit funny that Hariyama can handle your Venusaur lead quite easily. ^^

Thanks. Anyways, I'm not gonna add anything else to this Hariyama vendetta because it seems nobody will even attempt to read, and having climbed the ladder with him as lead and never looking back means I'm pretty sure of how much of a great lead he is (yeah, quote me for this, I don't care); so I digress. Finally, I ask someone to actually start a discussion that isn't related to saying other pokés suck because they do.

Some of us find the clash of egos entertaining tbh. :)

That. Want some popcorn?
 
Because I don't feel like quoting:

In my experience, scarf Venusaurs are fairly common. I've actually been screwed over once or twice when I saw a Venusaur and expected it to be scarfed when it wasn't. I've even seen a specs saur, which was an interesting experience.
 
also, anybody noted how rare HO is in UU?

Ok it ain't exactly common anywhere (Except maybe LC or NU) but I just noted after I actually fought a HO team.
 
Yeah, I remember seeing very offensive teams a lot. I guess they don't work all that well anymore or something.

Also, it's getting pretty obvious what's happening to this thread now because everyone's waiting for the bans. A whole bunch of posts talking about nothing and getting deleted/infracted... Oh, well. I guess I have teams to test before the ladder reset.
 
Because I don't feel like quoting:

In my experience, scarf Venusaurs are fairly common. I've actually been screwed over once or twice when I saw a Venusaur and expected it to be scarfed when it wasn't. I've even seen a specs saur, which was an interesting experience.

I've been running a specs Vena lately. If you can get overgrow activated Leaf Storm is putting a huge dent in something even if it resists it
 
Right now, I'm focusing on preparations for Rain Dance teams. After having encountered a guy using all physical rain sweepers, which left me absolutely no chance to beat him with my balance team, I decided to experiment some with Quagsire and Tangrowth. The only problem is getting past special sweepers on other teams, but tossing in Chansey makes one too many walls, and makes the team more stall focused. Stall isn't my thing, but if that's what I have to do to get past rain, I'll at least try it.
 
No, I am saying that I'd rather avoid both situations entirely. Never once did I say that Jumpluff was preferrable to lead Scarf Venusaur.

You said that they are equal success rates, which is really the wrong way to look at it.
Yep, thats me.

Heysup, don't you run a +Spe Nature on your Scarf Venusaur? If so, how is that working out? What are the advantages aside from outrunning Electrode in the lead?

Do you need another advantage?

There are some though, like outrunning +2 Gorebyss, Omastar, Rhyperior, Aggron, and Torterra. It's useful.
 
It is a bit of a risk, but not really. If you carry Dugtrio as your answer to Scarf Sleep, I will be able to run free with Raikou after I Pursuit trap your Dugtrio with Swellow (for example). For my Raikou team in particular, that's not a bad trade. However switching Dugtrio in on Venusaur is pretty risky in general...it is a grass-type.

Although use of CB Dugtrio may have risen recently with the departure of Honchkrow, I personally still think it is a bad idea. Life Orb + Substitute + 3 attacks is the far superior build IMO, and any offensive team is going to feel the pain if that thing manages to set up on Scarf Venu's Sleep Powder. I don't know of a single offensive Pokemon that can handle Dugtrio behind a Sub carrying Earthquake + Rock Slide / Stone Edge + Sucker Punch without taking at least a heavy beating, and with the scarfer already dispatched. Perhaps a Swellow with prediction using U-turn and Quick Attack, but even that is a mindgame at best.

And generally super-effective rarely applies as significant for a Pokemon as frail as Duggie. It really needs to avoid any kind of heavy hit at all costs.

And I don't believe I ever used a Lum Berry Mesprit...

Well maybe not Lum Berry, but I remember you mentioning the Mesprit + Dugtrio combo as a way of dispatching lead Froslass. The same setup can be used to capitalize on Scarf sleepers with a simple item change.

This isn't to say Scarf Sleep isn't risky, but is there a better/alternative way to beat Froslass, Rain, and Dual Screen leads? I don't believe so.

A difficult question to answer, given that I don't even believe Scarf sleep is a good way of beating those. But in general I see that as the wrong way of approaching the problem. A well-built team should be well prepared to take on any of these strategies at least adequately as they come. Being so paranoid and even reliant on preventing the setup altogether is very dangerous IMO, especially with a strategy that has less than 50% chance of working, as I have already shown. I prefer to just keep smacking them hard so that whatever they do they can't come back and do it again. As an example, a simple lead Spiritomb + offensive anti-rain Pokemon (Toxicroak, Kabutops, Qwilfish etc) deals with those three mentioned problems by themselves almost completely, and I have had next to no problem with any of them using this and similar simple combos.

I personally think that those kind of setups are more dangerous when unexpected in the lategame anyway, where you may not have your best counters left. No anti-lead is stopping those.

Attacking a 1 HP Froslass, again, comes down to prediction. I'd personally switch to Venusaur again, because either way Froslass is going to either Destiny Bond or get another layer of Spikes if it wakes up. If it doesn't I can just Sludge Bomb it to death, otherwise I can sleep it again. However it is 100% prediction otherwise. If Froslass doesn't get Spikes down, it doesn't do its job anyway. Froslass should always get Spikes up against a non-centralized lead. Venusaur seems to be the only exception to this, even if it isn't foolproof.

So after already getting a lucky break with the first sleep duration, you think the best course of action is to try and do the same again? That is called pushing your luck, and at that point we are talking about success rates as low as 10-15%, much lower than the chances of getting a kill with an OHKO move, or hitting a Pokemon with +6 Evasion.

Please give me an example of an offensive team that can take 2-3 Air Slash / Fire Blast / Hidden Power Grasses from Moltres? Nothing can! There are honestly like 3 "semi-offensive" Pokemon in the top 50 who can switch in and beat Moltres safely, Azumarill, Life Orb Milotic, and HP Rock Houndoom.

Well there's DD Altaria, who can take a resisted hit and set up. Or Ninetales, who can set up after Fire Blast or kill with HP Rock. Or pivot Regirock (the best one, though I almost always prefer Registeel myself). Anyway, you're right, there aren't many guaranteed switch-ins to Moltres on offensive teams, but then again they rarely need to have one, as they are all about playing to resistances. Coming in on a predicted resisted attack than threatening immediately usually suffices in difficult situations. It isn't the same as a stall team which relies on guaranteed counters to function properly at all times.

Also, I agree that Scarf Venusaur is best off with +Spe as a lead. But that also highlights the fact that it doesn't hold a candle to the great Roserade as far as scarf goes, lead or not. In addition to not having some great 'sure thing' support options against obvious wall switch-ins, Venusaur also lacks the power to really hurt and is forced to run +Spe on top to outrun every non-scarfer.
 
Well there's DD Altaria, who can take a resisted hit and set up. Or Ninetales, who can set up after Fire Blast or kill with HP Rock. Or pivot Regirock (the best one, though I almost always prefer Registeel myself). Anyway, you're right, there aren't many guaranteed switch-ins to Moltres on offensive teams, but then again they rarely need to have one, as they are all about playing to resistances. Coming in on a predicted resisted attack than threatening immediately usually suffices in difficult situations. It isn't the same as a stall team which relies on guaranteed counters to function properly at all times.

Also, I agree that Scarf Venusaur is best off with +Spe as a lead. But that also highlights the fact that it doesn't hold a candle to the great Roserade as far as scarf goes, lead or not. In addition to not having some great 'sure thing' support options against obvious wall switch-ins, Venusaur also lacks the power to really hurt and is forced to run +Spe on top to outrun every non-scarfer.

With SR, the airslash (with the resisted Fireblast) will KO.
 
Yeah, Altaria does not even qualify as a check to Moltres. A max defensive Altaria can still be 3-4HKO'd by Air Slash and the Fire Blast it switches into. (I originally did a bunch of calculations that showed that unless Altaria switches into Roost, it will always be 3HKO'd by Timid Moltres. Then I realized I forgot Leftovers recovery. -.-)
 
Edit: Forgot about Pressure. Anyway, let's talk about potential new UU pokes! Anyone want some Heracross? Eh? Eh?!
 
Oh god no! Just give it the quick boot. It and Hippowdon. If it doesn't get the quick boot, I will abuse it until it does get booted. Then I will be sad because I don't get any more easy wins.

What I do want to see is Tentacruel. There aren't enough reliable Toxic Spikers in UU anymore. And the only Toxic Spiker who can also spin is Cloyster, who sucks. Plus, Tentacruel easily beats Froslass seeing as she cannot touch him. Sure Venusaur can switch in to ruin your party, but only physical Venusaur wins because of Tentacruel's great Sp. Def.
 
With SR, the airslash (with the resisted Fireblast) will KO.

Except that Stealth Rock is never up in the situation me and Heysup have been discussing over the last couple of pages.

Plus, Tentacruel easily beats Froslass seeing as she cannot touch him.
She might not have an effective attack against Tentacruel, but she would still be able to stall it down to critical health whilst setting up a full stack, just like with Blastoise. Only differences being the Surfs are even weaker, and it is not as balanced defensively.
 
She might not have an effective attack against Tentacruel, but she would still be able to stall it down to critical health whilst setting up a full stack, just like with Blastoise. Only differences being the Surfs are even weaker, and it is not as balanced defensively.

Worse yet, Dugtrio can come in and revenge kill it. I don't think Tentacruel will be that big of a deal to be honest.
 
Tentacruel actually makes a fantastic counter to Venusaur's defensive or specially-based sets, since Liquid Ooze turns Leech Seed back on the big plant thing and Venusaur can't manage more than a neutral Energy Ball otherwise, which Tentacruel will easily shrug off. The offensive variants with Earthquake are obviously a problem though, especially since Venusaur will love switching in to absorb the Tspikes. Basically, I see Tentacruel's impact on the tier being that of Donphan's. Not broken, not shit, but reasonably good at an unfilled niche.
 
Look, it can Toxic Spike and Rapid Spin at the same time. I'd much rather have Tentacruel over Cloyster, the only other Pokemon who can do that (not counting Forretress). And like you guys said, it isn't anywhere near broken, so I would welcome it.
 
Tentacruel will immediately replace milotic in bulky water department.something i'm going to be sad to see :( but i dont believe toxic spikes will be used still because of all the poison types in the game. and with tentacruel having a high use, Tspikes would almost be a waist of moveslot lol

EDIT: I agree with you flareblitz, not broken, not shit, but good at fullfilling a role. Especially since moltres is being the next suspect looking at being broken , i believe tentacruel will help balance this out
 
Tentacruel will immediately replace milotic in bulky water department.something i'm going to be sad to see :( but i dont believe toxic spikes will be used still because of all the poison types in the game. and with tentacruel having a high use, Tspikes would almost be a waist of moveslot lol

EDIT: I agree with you flareblitz, not broken, not shit, but good at fullfilling a role. Especially since moltres is being the next suspect looking at being broken , i believe tentacruel will help balance this out

Woah there buddy slow down. There's no that would happen. You've still got to figure that Milotic has better defensive stats, and can run that Restalk defensive set like a champ. Both pokemon are versatile and Tentacruel would be a welcome addition in our new (and improved) UU.

Tentacruel can be another soldier in taking down Moltres!

Blaziken: Welcome to UU, you'll need these. (hands Tentacruel an army hat plus rifle)
Tentacruel: What... why?
Absol: INCOMING FIRE BLAST! GET DOWN!
Blaziken: Gogogo!
 
Woah there buddy slow down. There's no that would happen. You've still got to figure that Milotic has better defensive stats, and can run that Restalk defensive set like a champ. Both pokemon are versatile and Tentacruel would be a welcome addition in our new (and improved) UU.

Tentacruel can be another soldier in taking down Moltres!

Blaziken: Welcome to UU, you'll need these. (hands Tentacruel an army hat plus rifle)
Tentacruel: What... why?
Absol: INCOMING FIRE BLAST! GET DOWN!
Blaziken: Gogogo!




you have made my day
 
Tentacruel actually makes a fantastic counter to Venusaur's defensive or specially-based sets, since Liquid Ooze turns Leech Seed back on the big plant thing and Venusaur can't manage more than a neutral Energy Ball otherwise, which Tentacruel will easily shrug off. The offensive variants with Earthquake are obviously a problem though, especially since Venusaur will love switching in to absorb the Tspikes. Basically, I see Tentacruel's impact on the tier being that of Donphan's. Not broken, not shit, but reasonably good at an unfilled niche.

I have to question that comparison of Donphan and Tentacruel. Donphan's role is definitely not unfilled. There is Sandslash, Torkoal, Kabutops, etc. that can all Rapid Spin and set up Stealth Rock. Donphan is just the "Best" at it. Donphan also made a great check to Pokemon like Aggron (with its new HS), Rhyperior, and Raikou. Tentacruel can beat..uhh...Moltres I guess? Rain too (lol minus Kabutops....).

And Bad Ass I don't think it's fair to bitch at Jabba/Reach for Roserade. This is a known downside for using usage based tiering, but that's what we are doing and there is really nothing either of them can do about it. This would have to be a policy review thing, I can't really see reach or Jabba being able to get away with "Yea fuck smogon tiering lets do our own thing" even if they wanted to.
 
If jabba/jump/reach/anyone who was involved in that can give me some good arguement as to why roserade was banned, then i'll listen and if i agree then i'll shut up. But for now it's bullshit.
Excuse me if I come across as patronizing here, but this question honestly merits it...the reasoning for excluding OU Pokemon from UU is that this is not OU. If OU Pokemon were allowed in UU, you would have to contend with Salamence, Gyarados, Lucario....in other words, it would be Standard. It isn't like there are a given pool of Pokemon that are permanently UU and that Pokemon can be banned by rising too high in usage. The whole UU tier is defined by the fact that the Pokemon in it are not used enough in Standard to be OU. There is literally no way of playing UU that will or even could include allowing OU Pokemon in it. That would be inherently a contradiction.
 
Two things:

Suppose a Pokemon is in the UU tier and gets a hype surge in OU, why can't there be a system where "If Pokemon X would move from UU to OU, it would remain in UU for X amount of time. If X amount of time is passed, that Pokemon is removed from the tier." I'm pretty sure Umbreon made such a move and it was rather annoying. The same could be done for potential UU Pokemon.

Retesting BL Pokemon. After so much time has passed and different Pokemon entering and leaving the tier, shouldn't there be retesting of previous BL. Have players give a blind vote on each BL Pokemon and then test the ones that pass. Notable Pokemon being, well I guess just Crobat. I believe that we were a bit 'immature' yet at that voting stage.
 
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