np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head

[FlareBlitz]

Okay, here are the Raikou checks people can use on Offense: Dugtrio (spikes fuck it against SubCM and it's not like those are common with whorelass running around right...oh), Sceptile (physical or subseed, checks it decently if it doesn't have HP Ice), Swellow (obviously can't switch in, Sub versions lol at it) and...that's it. So yeah, Raikou has three checks on offensive teams, two of which don't really fit into Bulky Offense, (i.e. my preferred style of play), and all of which lose to specific Raikou sets (but not the same one). Offense should not have to run Registeel, Chansey, Steelix, etc. just to not get swept by Raikou, and the three checks that Offense does have access to get screwed over by specific Raikou sets anyway. Of course, stall has few problems with Raikou, but then, Offense had few problems with Gallade...and we still banned it because it broke a certain style of play (instead of the entire metagame).

 

[shrang]

Raikou (at least in my opinion) has the same sort of threat level as Gyarados does in OU. A big threat yes, but easily countered. Hell, with so many Raikou running HP Ice, I can even stick Rhyperior in front of and rape Raikou. If you're running HP Grass, Venusaur can stop it easily (Assuming Sub/CM). LO + 3 Attacks isn't anywhere near as annoying, stuff like Rotom can stop it, Drapion can take a +1 Thunderbolt and EQ it, blah blah blah. Chansey, Registeel and Steelix pretty much harder counter Raikou, the only one that could beat Chansey and Registeel would be a Cro-set, in which Dugtrio would just switch in and laugh at you.

 

[Bad Ass]

I'd rather use the set that can live for more than ten turns and is harder to hit with status.

And it does matter if it's the standard. If there is a set that used more often than any other set, it should definately be looked at. Like I just said, Life Orb Raikou has more power and better coverage, but can be hit by status and is more prone to revenge killing because of Life Orb recoil.

please stop. life orb raikou often doesn't need ten turns to sweep you. it doesn't matter what the standard is, since if it's broken but it's not the standard...oh wow not broken obviously! life orb raikou single handedly beats a large portion of offensive teams, since most 'checks' (read: venusaur, rhyperior, sceptile, dugtrio) are ohkoed, bar dugtrio. there's a slew of pokemon that sub cm raikou can't kill in one or two hits that life orb can. postscript what exactly statuses raikou? don't say chansey or registeel since sub cm isn't staying in on either of those.

 

[PK Gaming]

Guys, the Life Orb set is not Raikou's standard set. The on-site analysis is geared towards OU. The SubCM set is the standard for UU.



I was talking about Lefties, Timid, TBolt, CM, Sub, HP Ice/Grass/Water.



@PK Gaming

First of all, it seems as if you are implying that the Raikou in question has CM, Sub, TBolt, HP Grass, HP Ice, and Extrasensory. I would very much like to see this Raikou with six moves. I'm talking about the SubCM set, the most used Raikou set, so Extrasensory and Life Orb are out of the question. You also say "killed by HP Grass" and "killed by HP Ice," clearly ignoring the fact that I said certain Pokemon can counter depending on the Hidden Power type which is not that difficult to figure out. You say that only Scarf Hitmonlee wins, yet Band Hitmonlee can survive a +1 Thunderbolt and OHKO. You also say Dugtrio can only revenge kill it. This is not true. The moment you see Raikou, switch to Dugtrio, and assuming no entry hazards, you will always win as long as you run the minor Sp. Def investment that Dugtrio doesn't even need in the other stats. I also forgot to mention that if you have a Swellow that has already activated its orb, it OHKO's with Facade.

I can also do this:





And I can do this:

Now see here there's no need for that. (I think you just shattered my pride 0_0)

Anywho, I think Raikou's most destructive set is: Calm Mind, Thunder Bolt, Subsitute, and Hidden power grass.

Yeah my bad on the 5 moveslot thing but this set can literally tear teams apart.

@ Shrang, you state that Raikou is comparable to Gyarados but I disagree. Raikou forces me to drastically make alterations to my team in order to succeed (much like Moltres...) and it's overcentralizing the metagame in my opinion. (again, I don't enjoy running Registeel, Chansey and the like [like Flare blitz has mentioned])

I like a healthy metagame, and Raikou is like a canker sore.

 

[Bluewind]

Raikou (at least in my opinion) has the same sort of threat level as Gyarados does in OU. A big threat yes, but easily countered. Hell, with so many Raikou running HP Ice, I can even stick Rhyperior in front of and rape Raikou. If you're running HP Grass, Venusaur can stop it easily (Assuming Sub/CM). LO + 3 Attacks isn't anywhere near as annoying, stuff like Rotom can stop it, Drapion can take a +1 Thunderbolt and EQ it, blah blah blah. Chansey, Registeel and Steelix pretty much harder counter Raikou, the only one that could beat Chansey and Registeel would be a Cro-set, in which Dugtrio would just switch in and laugh at you.

Have you EVER used LO Raikou to say these things? Rotom stops it?? Rotom is fodder... The most bulky Steelix takes around 70% from +1 HP Water IIRC (I'm talking about 252 HP/252 SpDef and Careful nature, guys); Registeel takes around 50% from a +1 Thunderbolt, meaning it cannot switch in forever, specially when spikes are around. Venusaur cries, Rhyperior cries. Gastrodon? Quagsire? If they were actually common I'd be concerned. Dugtrio dies if it switches into HP Water and can't risk switching into other sets if one layer of spikes is up.

 

[PK Gaming]

It's also a guessing game when you deal with Raikou. Often times, it can cost at least one pokemon in finding out what set it runs.

 

[Bluewind]

It's also a guessing game when you deal with Raikou. Often times, it can cost at least one pokemon in finding out what set it runs.

Exactly. What bothers me the most is: Ok, I run a team in which Venusaur is my Raikou counter, but if it turns out said Raikou has something like HP Ice, my dear Venusaur will go under odd mutations and become a beautiful Mudpuppy a.k.a Quagsire, such a common bulky water that can't even take a hit from Moltres.

 

[dbcb]

Raikou (at least in my opinion) has the same sort of threat level as Gyarados does in OU. A big threat yes, but easily countered. Hell, with so many Raikou running HP Ice, I can even stick Rhyperior in front of and rape Raikou. If you're running HP Grass, Venusaur can stop it easily (Assuming Sub/CM). LO + 3 Attacks isn't anywhere near as annoying, stuff like Rotom can stop it, Drapion can take a +1 Thunderbolt and EQ it, blah blah blah. Chansey, Registeel and Steelix pretty much harder counter Raikou, the only one that could beat Chansey and Registeel would be a Cro-set, in which Dugtrio would just switch in and laugh at you.

rotom can stop lo 3 attack raikou? tbolt does 47.5% - 56.2% to the standard statusing rotom without a boost. so its revenge killing (revenge statusing?) only.

drapion survives +1 tbolt (if no spikes or anything)... but if raikou decides to tbolt on the switch instead of setting up, it does 46.5% - 55.2% to standard drapion.

 

[franky]

As an avid LO raikou user myself (CM / Hp Water / Thunderbolt / Extrasensory), I can tell you now that my opponents struggle to beat it. The reason why you can't compare Gyarados to Raikou is that Raikou's speed is insanely high, and it can set up on a good portion of the metagame, especially the bulky waters. After a single CM boost, its "checks" are disposed of with the appropriate move. Steelix has a high chance of fainting from HP Water, and having no recovery will not help it. Rhyperior and Donphan faint from a boosted HP Water. Special Defensive Venusaur is 2HKO'd at best, and can only "stop it" through Sleep Powder. However, with Sleep Clause in effect, it will have to resort to Earthquake, which deals 40~ from experience. So if we narrow down the list, its true counters only consist of Dugtrio / Chansey / Torterra. (Though I think I missed some). These are just a list of bulky Pokemon Raikou destroys, imagine playing against offense (where I get most of my wins). This is just the CM + LO set - the only Raikou set I ran religiously. I'm sure the other sets have potential as well. Raikou is BL.

 

[Bluewind]

As an avid LO raikou user myself (CM / Hp Water / Thunderbolt / Extrasensory), I can tell you now that my opponents struggle to beat it. The reason why you can't compare Gyarados to Raikou is that Raikou's speed is insanely high, and it can set up on a good portion of the metagame, especially the bulky waters. After a single CM boost, its "checks" are disposed of with the appropriate move. Steelix has a high chance of fainting from HP Water, and having no recovery will not help it. Rhyperior and Donphan faint from a boosted HP Water. Special Defensive Venusaur is 2HKO'd at best, and can only "stop it" through Sleep Powder. However, with Sleep Clause in effect, it will have to resort to Earthquake, which deals 40~ from experience. So if we narrow down the list, its true counters only consist of Dugtrio / Chansey / Torterra. (Though I think I missed some). These are just a list of bulky Pokemon Raikou destroys, imagine playing against offense (where I get most of my wins). This is just the CM + LO set - the only Raikou set I ran religiously. I'm sure the other sets have potential as well. Raikou is BL.

Thank you for explaining, Demi.

 

[GMLW]

Jesus, this post took me a long time to make. :P

I just had a few battles with Life Orb Raikou. The thing sucks. Torterra makes it eat shit. Sceptile makes it eat shit. Venusaur isn't OHKO'd and then makes it eat shit. Priority makes it eat shit. Chansey makes it eat shit. Claydol makes it eat shit after prior damage, which isn't hard with Life Orb + entry hazards. This thing dies so insanely fast it isn't even funny.

please stop. life orb raikou often doesn't need ten turns to sweep you.

Yeah, cause I'm gonna just sit there and stat-up or heal or team support for ten turns while Raikou tears me to shreds. I don't think so. Life Orb Raikou gets a maximum of ten turns to sweep you. Now let's take into account entry hazards and other damage. Now it gets two to three turns. If I can get something in that has priority but isn't OHKO'd, I win.

postscript what exactly statuses raikou? don't say chansey or registeel since sub cm isn't staying in on either of those.

Wait, we're talking about the SubCM set? Oh, I thought we were talking about the Life Orb set. In that case, I wrote a whole fucking essay on why Raikou isn't broken.

Gastrodon? Quagsire? If they were actually common I'd be concerned.

| Raikou     |  Move         | Substitute       |    47.8 |

| Raikou     | Item         | Life Orb         |    22.2  |
| Raikou     | Move         | Extrasensory     |     7.4  |

Raikou has a Life Orb set? If it was actually common I'd be concerned.

Okay, here are the Raikou checks people can use on Offense: Dugtrio (spikes fuck it against SubCM and it's not like those are common with whorelass running around right...oh), Sceptile (physical or subseed, checks it decently if it doesn't have HP Ice), Swellow (obviously can't switch in, Sub versions lol at it) and...that's it.

I see you mention the SubCM set. In that case, refer to the list of counters/checks I made on the previous page. And like you said, Swellow can't switch in. That means you had to sacrifice something. So... how exactly will it have a sub up? And don't say that Raikou outspeeds and OHKO's the sacrifice, Raikou isn't OHKOing without a boost.

As an avid LO raikou user myself (CM / Hp Water / Thunderbolt / Extrasensory), I can tell you now that my opponents struggle to beat it. The reason why you can't compare Gyarados to Raikou is that Raikou's speed is insanely high, and it can set up on a good portion of the metagame, especially the bulky waters. After a single CM boost, its "checks" are disposed of with the appropriate move. Steelix has a high chance of fainting from HP Water, and having no recovery will not help it. Rhyperior and Donphan faint from a boosted HP Water. Special Defensive Venusaur is 2HKO'd at best, and can only "stop it" through Sleep Powder. However, with Sleep Clause in effect, it will have to resort to Earthquake, which deals 40~ from experience. So if we narrow down the list, its true counters only consist of Dugtrio / Chansey / Torterra. (Though I think I missed some). These are just a list of bulky Pokemon Raikou destroys, imagine playing against offense (where I get most of my wins). This is just the CM + LO set - the only Raikou set I ran religiously. I'm sure the other sets have potential as well. Raikou is BL.

So wait, it runs HP Water and isn't countered by Quagsire or Gastrodon? And you missed Sceptile and Registeel and Swellow. And I like how you just assume that Sleep Clause is already in effect when they switch in Venusaur.

And I'm done arguing for now. If there is one thing I've learned from debating in UU, it's that if you're outnumbered in the beginning, you will always lose, because everyone is so goddamn adamant. And I'm always on the losing end. Always.

Let the flamewar begin!

 

[franky]

So wait, it runs HP Water and isn't countered by Quagsire or Gastrodon? And you missed Sceptile and Registeel and Swellow. And I like how you just assume that Sleep Clause is already in effect when they switch in Venusaur.

Lets be practical here, we are talking about common battle conditions, Quagsire and Gastradon are p. much non existent in the UU tier. I even took the liberty of removing Lanturn from my counters list because its so rare. Registeel is in the same boat as Steelix, lacks recovery for it to reliably counter Raikou. Though I'm not denying that Registeel can check it, but its by no means a counter. Takes 44% - 51.9% from +1 Thunderbolt. That is close to a 2HKO. I don't assume there is sleep clause is in effect, I said if Sleep Clause is in effect, then your Raikou "check" slowly diminishes.

I hardly call Swellow and Sceptile counters, they aren't switching into Raikou. This is called revenge killing. Anyone can revenge kill, Weavile can revenge Garchomp, etc.

 

[GMLW]

You listed its true counters. Regardless of usage, if it runs HP Water it is completely countered by Gastrodon and Quagsire.

And I don't mind Lanturn being taken off the list, I've realized that it's an awful Raikou check.

If you revenge kill a Pokemon, its dead. If one Pokemon can kill another, it counters it. Look at the on-site analyses for any Pokemon. Many of the Pokemon have revenge killers listed in their counters section.



Didn't I just say "Let the flamewar begin"? Where are the flames? Come on FlareBlitz, Bad Ass, and Bluewind, aren't you guys gonna flame me for acting sarcastically towards your posts?

 

[Bluewind]

So you say the fact it's not as common makes it not a threat? Check Cresselia's statistics and you'll see the set most people argued to be broken, the substitute set, has a little more than 20% usage, thus, according to your patterns, not being a threat at all. Also, let's talk about our mexican friend Ludicolo, and his "supposedly" shitty Swords Dance set (again, your patterns), which IIRC saw 20% usage, yet it underwent lots of discussion, being called from broken to much more effective than it's special counterpart by some. Now let's talk about Sceptile, one of your said counters. What's the move used by him that can arguably check Raikou better? Earthquake. Oooops, it's only used by 25.1% of the Sceptiles... Damn! Good luck trying to OHKO something that has base 100 SpDef and is under +1 status making use of Leaf Storm, with the risk of being hit by a strong Extrasensory/Hp Ice to the face. Finally, I want to remind you of something that has been discussed over time and is constantly repeated whenever a suspect appears: "The fact it can be revenge killed (hi Swellow!) does not mean it's not broken.

Oh, and regarding Raikou being "forced to eat shit" because of priority, Raikou's defenses are 90/75/100 (IIRC), being weak to none of them. This somehow reminds me of Yanmega, who had 86/86/52(?) defenses, and that everyone agreed that was quite efficient taking priority, maybe way too much.

Didn't I just say "Let the flamewar begin"? Where are the flames? Come on FlareBlitz, Bad Ass, and Bluewind, aren't you guys gonna flame me for acting sarcastically towards your posts?

Edit: Please stop that, don't start playing the martyr. If someone finds a way to counter your arguments, try to counter them back, instead of whining and saying all of us have personal vendettas against you.

 

[franky]

You listed its true counters. Regardless of usage, if it runs HP Water it is completely countered by Gastrodon and Quagsire.

And I don't mind Lanturn being taken off the list, I've realized that it's an awful Raikou check.

If you revenge kill a Pokemon, its dead. If one Pokemon can kill another, it counters it. Look at the on-site analyses for any Pokemon. Many of the Pokemon have revenge killers listed in their counters section.



Didn't I just say "Let the flamewar begin"? Where are the flames?

I listed the true counters reflected to the BL characteristics, which is "common battle conditions". I don't care if Quagsire or Gastradon checks them, they are so rare. Revenge killing isn't really an indicator to why something is broken. A lot of people outpaced/revenged Garchomp yet it is still deemed Uber. Okay fine, Raikou has people who revenges it, but its only two. A small pool of revenge killers. I still stand by what I say though, revenge killing is never a valid argument imo.

Edit: Taylor Swift beat me to it

 

[GMLW]

There are the flames. >:D

We started discussing the SD Ludicolo set pretty much right after those statistics were taken. I'm willing to bet that in the April statistics, it will have much more usage. However, we only started discussing this today, so I don't think it'll get common for a while.

The only Sceptile set that would use Leaf Storm against Raikou over Earthquake or another move is the Specs set. Specs Leaf Storm does 60-70% against +1 Raikou. It should die to that turn's Life Orb recoil when taking into account entry hazards and/or other damage and Life Orb recoil.


I listed two Pokemon who outspeed and revenge it. Priority gets rid of the speed factor and adds tons more Pokemon who can revenge kill it.

 

[Bluewind]

There are the flames. >:D

We started discussing the SD Ludicolo set pretty much right after those statistics were taken. I'm willing to bet that in the April statistics, it will have much more usage. However, we only started discussing this today, so I don't think it'll get common for a while.

The only Sceptile set that would use Leaf Storm against Raikou over Earthquake or another move is the Specs set. Specs Leaf Storm does 60-70% against +1 Raikou. It should die to that turn's Life Orb recoil when taking into account entry hazards and/or other damage and Life Orb recoil.

I'll edit this responding to j. franky.

Interesting how your counter, Sceptile, dies in the process. Imagine Milotic dying to severely weaken Feraligatr, Tangrowth dying to severely weaken Azumarill, Registeel dying to severely weaken Mismagius. Same situation. Also, I see no explanation to Cresselia's case.

Finally, as I said, stop playing the martyr. Read threads of other stages and you'll see that in most of them Heysup and Lemmiwinks took part in several discussions, in which each one of them had completely different opinions, but none of them claimed one was flaming the other.

Oh, and as you insist in the priority thing, remember Porygon Z? Yeah, the priority thing just didn't cut it (and it was actually weak to some of them).

 

[franky]

I listed two Pokemon who outspeed and revenge it. Priority gets rid of the speed factor and adds tons more Pokemon who can revenge kill it.

I've pretty much fleshed out your arguments down to "revenge" killing and priority, which are invalid to be honest. You proved my point, Raikou is BL.

 

[GMLW]

Interesting how your counter, Sceptile, dies in the process. Imagine Milotic dying to severely weaken Feraligatr, Tangrowth dying to severely weaken Azumarill, Registeel dying to severely weaken Mismagius. Same situation.

I have a team of 5 Pokemon left. You have a team of 5 Pokemon left. I wouldn't call that sweeping.

Also, I see no explanation to Cresselia's case.

The stats were taken in January. We all talked about the sub set a lot right after that. We started talking about the Raikou set today. The stats don't reflect something that got a surge in popularity right after they were taken. They do, however, reflect something that is getting a bit more recognition than before right before the next set of stats will be taken.

Oh, and as you insist in the priority thing, remember Porygon Z? Yeah, the priority thing just didn't cut it (and it was actually weak to some of them).

If you look at the votes, you'll see I voted it UU. Personally, I thought the priority thing did cut it.

I've pretty much fleshed out your arguments down to "revenge" killing and priority, which are invalid to be honest. You proved my point, Raikou is BL.

No, you've been talking about the revenge killing, so I've been responding to it. I can talk about walling it if you want me to.


Well, I've got to go. Have fun arguing when there is nobody on the other side to argue with.

 

[ZapdosBlitz]

A sleep absorber and then a switch to Altaria, Moltres ect. Really with Venusaur everywhere, a sleep absorber is practically required. I've even seriously considered using Noctowl to counter Venusaur.

Nah so that's the reason why there are 6 Noctowl on 8 of my battles?>_>
IMO the best counter to Venusaur (After someone take sleeps) are Altaria and Moltres or Arcanine because it's outspeed and kill with Flare Blitz

 

[Bluewind]

Great, you have a team of 5 other pokés, but if your best hope of countering something is sacrificing one pokémon to do so, I don't think that's a very good scenario, is it?

About the votings, it seems great part of the voters disagree with you; so much that it was voted BL with a supermajority. You can either believe 2/3 + 1 of the voters have personal vendettas against you or you can consider the possibility of your argument being flawed.

 

[Lil Niglet]

I have one question: If Raikou is so broken, why hasn't been voted BL yet? Just wondering.

 

[FlareBlitz]

@LoneWolf

If I were going to flame you, it would not be because I have something personal against you, it would be because you are pretending that your post, which addressed none of my points and actually proved a couple of them, is the height of brilliance and all our arguments are from nothing more substantial than theorymon. Note that Bluewind, Franky, and I have some of the most successful offensive teams on the ladder. Bluewind uses LOKou in his, as does Franky, and while I don't, I do have enough experience with it to know just how strong it is.

You will note that almost all the checks you mentioned (Claydol, Torterra, Registeel, Chansey) are found on stall, semi-stall or (at the most) balanced teams. No offensive team uses Torterra, Claydol, Registeel, or Chansey. Some use Torterra, but offensive Torterra spreads have immense trouble with any variation of Kou due to its meh SDEF. Offensive Vensaur takes 103.7% - 122.3% from +1 Extrasensory, while 252/0 Bold Venusaur takes 85.7% - 101.1%. Only Specially Defensive Venusaurs have any chance of countering Raikou, and even then, they can only do so via Sleep Powder (0 ATK Venu's EQ against 32/0 Raikou does 47.4% - 55.9%, which isn't anything approaching a kill); without Sleep Powder, Raikou handily 2hkos (and has a small chance of ohko if there's SR and 1 layer of spikes). Torterra loses to any raikou with HP Ice, Claydol loses to any Raikou with HP Grass/Ice/Water (72.8% - 85.8% while its return Earthquake does 62% - 73.6%, decent damage, but Raikou will still be able to kill it and probably smack something else really hard before going down).

Ultimately though, all of this is irrelevant; it's merely to show that even defensive Pokemon have a tough time with Raikou. Raikou is broken not because it's a stall wrecking machine, but because it is very very dangerous against any offensive team on the ladder. You will not that offensive Venusaur, for instance, has absolutely no chance of ever countering LOKou. The same applies for any other offensive Pokemon with below 115 SPE and without the ability to take one of Raikou's boosted attacks (i.e. all of them) There are tentative checks on offense, yes. But no counters. Revenge killers do not count; Swellow and Sceptile could kill Tinted Lens Yanmega too, but that didn't stop it from going to BL with a unanimous vote. Similarly, Chansey and RestTalk Registeel could check Yanmega just fine, but because they are only found on Stall, Yanmega was still considered broken due to it making an entire style of play competitively irrelevant, much like Raikou is doing. This was my original point, and replying to it with "but registeel/chansey/claydol/umbreon/specially defensive venusaur!" makes it look like you didn't pass 6th grade as far as reading comprehension goes. This is probably the source of the perceived "flaming", although honestly, I don't see where anyone ever personally insulted you.

@above

Because Cresselia overshadowed it and, incidentally, countered it pretty damn well due to its 120/130 special defense and access to its own Calm Mind and a healing move.

 

[Lil Niglet]

Is LOkou or Subkou broken? Or are both of them?

 

[Banedon]

Lets be practical here, we are talking about common battle conditions, Quagsire and Gastradon are p. much non existent in the UU tier. I even took the liberty of removing Lanturn from my counters list because its so rare. Registeel is in the same boat as Steelix, lacks recovery for it to reliably counter Raikou. Though I'm not denying that Registeel can check it, but its by no means a counter. Takes 44% - 51.9% from +1 Thunderbolt. That is close to a 2HKO. I don't assume there is sleep clause is in effect, I said if Sleep Clause is in effect, then your Raikou "check" slowly diminishes.

I hardly call Swellow and Sceptile counters, they aren't switching into Raikou. This is called revenge killing. Anyone can revenge kill, Weavile can revenge Garchomp, etc.

There's one problem with that. Swellow and Sceptile can switch in on the Calm Mind, which you're assuming Raikou has used (e.g. against Registeel, you used +1 LO Thunderbolt for calcs). And of course Dugtrio can switch in on the Thunderbolt and finish Raikou off.

Nonetheless I'll say I think Raikou is BL. Switching Swellow / Sceptile / Dugtrio into LO Raikou takes courage and prediction; they are all OHKO'ed by the correct move. Sure counters to it exist, there're just a bit too few of them, and when Raikou first comes in you don't know what HP Raikou is using.

PS: Torterra gets lolwtfOHKOclause by HP Ice. No guarantee that Raikou isn't running that ...