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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head

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On the other hand, if players were worried about Dugtrio killing their walls, they'd run Shed Shell. It's an easy change, doesn't gimp movesets and the only thing you lose is Leftovers recovery. Since they don't, I'm inclined to conclude that they don't perceive Dugtrio as a threat, and so it's not BL.
I do not think the fact that people don't perceive something as a threat is a valid reason to ignore the possibility of something being a suspect. But this isn't really the main problem I find with your reasoning. Leftovers is so much more useful on defensive Pokemon that some players will forgo the use of Shed Shell. However, in the higher levels of competitive UU (which is mostly dominated by stall), I know for a fact that players use Shed Shell to prevent Dugtrio from taking out a part of their defensive core. Just because the "average" player found on the ladder doesn't recognize that Dugtrio is a large threat, doesn't mean that those who know their stuff, if you will, don't.

Keep in mind that I have not formed an opinion on Dugtrio's tiering status and am speaking objectively here.
 
Dugtrio for BL is ridiculous.

Venusaur does his job to well at being annoying as hell. I nominate him for Suspect status.
Raikou sweeps to easily when I don't put minimal effort at checking him. Suspect.
Uxie's ability to support it's team is absurd. Suspect.
Slowbro is too slow. Suspect.

Allow me to continue this list until I remove any and every Pokemon from the UU tier and then procede to do so in the NU tier.

Magikarp OHKOs everything in UU. Suspect.

Or if Dugtrio rapes your team use Shed Shell and setup on his ass.
 
Of course they should, even though it's less practical than running EQ and Iron Head and makes it easier setup bait for Mismagius or Raikou. Regardless of what Registeel runs, Magneton is going to kill it and there's nothing you can do about it.
First off, any Registeel with Iron Head (READ: All of them) will beat any sweeper Mismagius switch in, and with Seismic Toss a full health Registeel will beat SubCM Raikou and LOKou switching in. SO Registeel is definitely not set up bait for those two. Secondly, Registeel CAN beat Magneton. With Seismic Toss, it generally becomes a guessing game between Sub and TWaves from Registeel. If Magneton gets paralyzed (which is very possible when switching in) it will lose to Registeel with TWave. Even not getting paralyzed, Magneton has very low HP and takes a lot of damage from SToss.

lol, no they don't. It's not even an option on the standard set. The only place I see a Roar Steelix is on a Stall team, which is generally just to rack up damage from entry hazards.
| Steelix | Move | Roar | 64.1 |
Its his third most used move, on over half of Steelix. Granted these stats are from January, but there hasnt been any reason to stop using Roar (more really, with Cressy last period).

No shit? There's just far less risk for Magneton to switch right into Steelix or Registeel and make sure they die so that my sweepers won't have to face them. Once they're dead, just use that awesome base 120 Sp. Att to kill bulky Waters or just explode on something.
Magneton has to watch out for TWave and Earthquake, but predicting SR isnt too hard I guess. And Maggy has horrible SpD and and is slower than most bulky waters, and cant hit Lanturn or Quagsire.

Dugtrio can still kill more Pokemon if you don't go out there and suicide him like an idiot. If you send him out to kill Registeel prematurely, he will get hit by Iron Head and LO recoil, then revenged by something else, since there's no point in you'll let him die (not like you have a choice if there are any Spikes down), then Raikou or whatever shows up. Whoops, bad idea. Oh, and all Steelix run Gyro Ball, so there's no way I'm coming in on that thing until at least half its health is gone.
This I agree with, especially with a Sub up, Dugtrio can cause some damage to less bulky teams. It also revenges tons of things excellently.
 
Am I the only one that runs Lum Berry on Magneton for just that reason? It seems pretty obvious to me... It doesn't need the Lefties recovery that much and Lum Berry rids prediction.

EDIT: Dugtrio. He is a beast. For sure suspect, possibly BL. I never run anything but SubLO, and it is an absolute monster. Me and synre have been running hyper offense teams just to see if his statement about ho earlier was true, and we've both been quite successful. (him more than me) Dugtrio is just such a great catch-all poke. In my ho for example, if there's something posing an imminent threat to my team, let a poke die and take out lots of health, then just trap it and proceed to sweep.

EDIT2: Miltank lead. I think I run 252 Att / 176 Spe / 80 HP Jolly with Stealth Rock, Rock Slide, Focus Punch and Protect/Return. Try it and it won't disappoint.
 
In OU, Magnezone does pretty much the exact same thing as Dugtrio; removing steels so that dragons can sweep. Oftentimes, steels are a team's only check for these dragons besides revenge killers (much like Raikou). Once they have been removed, the dragon can make a clean sweep unless there are revenge killers. This is the same concept of the Duggy/Raikou combo, but Magnezone hasn't even been considered to be banned to ubers. Why?
 
Because unlike Magnezone, Dugtrio's ability encompasses more than Steels. Arena Trap lets it take out (essentially) all weakened Pokemon as well as Chansey (as an example). Magnezone is also relatively slow compared to a lot of OU and has easily exploitable weaknesses. While the exploitable weaknesses (and paltry defensive stats) still hold true for Dugtrio, its Speed allows it to perform its role much more effectively.

(Remember that I'm not advocating one side or the other in this debate, I'm just stating the facts as I see them.)
 
Not entirely true. Jolly CB Dugtrio deals 69.1% minimum (69.2% - 81.3%)
You can potentially OHKO with 3 layers of spikes. Why do people ignore this fact?
Magneton CANNOT set up on Registeel if it runs Seismic toss which in my opinion is something ALL Registeel should run.
Wow, why does that sound so underwhelming?? Choice Band?? 3 Layers of Spikes?? Super Effective?? Should be a OHKO right?? Oh sorry, it's not guarranteed.

Wait, WHAT?!

You get my point. The fact that Dugtrio cannot OHKO the Registeel means it has problems. If Dugtrio just switched into Iron Head, he'd be 2HKO'd.

Oh, and even if Registeel runs Seismic Toss, what's to stop him from just Thunderbolting you to death since you're going to be running EQ (Don't tell me is running EQ, because that's just begging for Mismagius to come in and stomp you).
 
modest thunderbolt... 23.9% - 28.3%... 5hko at best
seismic toss 3hkos easily after substitute without hazards even with hp evs invested

I'm assuming you're saying that it's running ST/IH, not ST/EQ (typo?)
 
The only response I can muster to your post shrang is that you are playing Dugtrio incorrectly. It has been outlined a few times in recent posts that you cannot just switch Dugtrio into play willy-nilly. If you want a good example of how Dugtrio should be played, find one of Franky's matches. Alternatively, you can take a look at SJCrew's post on the last page.

However, even when played incorrectly, taking ~70% of Registeel's HP and essentially always KOing Chansey (51.6% - 61% with Jolly LO Earthquake) that do not equip Shed Shell makes it significantly easier to sweep with Raikou (and possibly Mismagius), although this is debatable with the omnipresence of Venusaur in current UU. If Dugtrio is played correctly and survives its encounter with Registeel or Chansey, it can come back in later in the match and KO weakened Venusaur before attempting a Raikou sweep (59.1% - 69.8% with LO Earthquake). Keep in mind that people are highlighting its support capabilities rather than strictly its offensive presence.
 
Anyone here who honestly thinks Dugtrio should be suspect needs to get their heads off the bandwagon/gutter. Dugtrio is not only extremely frail (aka hi I die to nearly every priority move in the game) but also even it revenge kills something now something else has a free turn to set up or come in and destroy Duggy with priority in return. CB Dugtrio is the easiest to beat, but LO Duggy also can't take priority or stuff like Sceptile at all, and it has less power, and you're not going to smack much around with LO boosted 80 base attack. Physical walls just laugh at the LO set, especially Hariyama/Rotom/Weezing who can cripple it completely. Also anybody who attempts to run SubLO is saying "hi I belong in the lower tiers of the UU ladder with my gimmick Dugtrio set!" which in all honesty is what SubLO Dugtrio is. I mean sure it can block status and stuff, but still any attack you throw at Duggy in UU short of Electric attacks/ Caterpie's Bug Bite is going to break the Sub and as a result ruin your strategy. "But I'm faster" so what? priority again comes into play (and a UU team without priority these days is like a United States without the Constitution) as well as physical walls which just tank it all day.

"Dugtrio for support characteristic" lol what? Honestly its called a revenge killer for a reason. Are we going to make every single revenge killer in the game become suspect under support clause? what about Spcestile? What about Aqua Jet Azumarill? What about Choice Scarf? Will they all get tested too? THat's the direction you guys are heading in if you even consider Dugtrio for suspect, because outside of its primary role as revenge killer, it is awful. 80 base Attack proves it. "But Dugtrio has Arena Trap" Ohnoes Registeel can smack it with Iron Head and cripple it for the rest of the game, and besides it can OHKO Regi with a CB, which means "in comes Swellow/Moltres to set up and demolish your team!" Seriously...
 
I know you don't just switch in Dugtrio without careful consideration. I'm just highlighting "Why are you ignoring the fact that Dugtrio can potentially OHKO Registeel with a Choice Band and a base 100 STAB super effective attack after 3 layer of Spikes" is not something fun to read. It shows Duggy lack of power, not his strengths. Now, I'm aware that he's just there to support, but that's not the way to argue the case, is it??
 
llol now everyone is gonna start testing dugtrio+raikou/moltres...it's already been done, but i see a huge increase in this team combination right here
 
Anyone here who honestly thinks Dugtrio should be suspect needs to get their heads off the bandwagon/gutter. Dugtrio is not only extremely frail (aka hi I die to nearly every priority move in the game) but also even it revenge kills something now something else has a free turn to set up or come in and destroy Duggy with priority in return. CB Dugtrio is the easiest to beat, but LO Duggy also can't take priority or stuff like Sceptile at all, and it has less power, and you're not going to smack much around with LO boosted 80 base attack. Physical walls just laugh at the LO set, especially Hariyama/Rotom/Weezing who can cripple it completely. Also anybody who attempts to run SubLO is saying "hi I belong in the lower tiers of the UU ladder with my gimmick Dugtrio set!" which in all honesty is what SubLO Dugtrio is. I mean sure it can block status and stuff, but still any attack you throw at Duggy in UU short of Electric attacks/ Caterpie's Bug Bite is going to break the Sub and as a result ruin your strategy. "But I'm faster" so what? priority again comes into play (and a UU team without priority these days is like a United States without the Constitution) as well as physical walls which just tank it all day.

"Dugtrio for support characteristic" lol what? Honestly its called a revenge killer for a reason. Are we going to make every single revenge killer in the game become suspect under support clause? what about Spcestile? What about Aqua Jet Azumarill? What about Choice Scarf? Will they all get tested too? THat's the direction you guys are heading in if you even consider Dugtrio for suspect, because outside of its primary role as revenge killer, it is awful. 80 base Attack proves it.

Your first paragraph can simply be addressed by switching. In that case the only attack that Dugtrio will be taking heavy damage from is Pursuit. Obviously, Dugtrio isn't going to attempt to revenge kill Aqua Jet Azumarill. You also should not be attempting to "sweep" with Dugtrio. As you said, its purposes include revenge killing and weakening specific counters so that other Pokemon can sweep.

I'm calling shenanigans on your second paragraph. Those Pokemon all lack a very important characteristic endemic to Dugtrio, Arena Trap. Specstile has terrible coverage with the popularity of Venusaur. Azumarill must rely on Aqua Jet to revenge kill due to its low base Speed, and Choice Scarf users tend to attract set-up.

In short, your last sentence pretty much says it all. You shouldn't really be using Dugtrio outside the roles of revenge killer and Chansey / Registeel weakener. Outside of those two niches, Dugtrio is frankly terrible. However, it is because of its ability to fulfill those two niches extremely well that its tiering status is being questioned. A Pokemon does not need to fit perfectly into one of the "Uber" characteristics to be voted BL. They are merely guidelines.
 
llol now everyone is gonna start testing dugtrio+raikou/moltres...it's already been done, but i see a huge increase in this team combination right here

Waaaaay ahead of you.

It's the simplest strategy out there really. Swellow + Dugtrio + Raikou can actually beat "every" team because of the potential to remove counters easily with the most powerful one-dimensional sweepers in the wings.
 
New that you mention it Heysup, a team consisting of...

Kabutops-Swellow-Moltres-Raikou-Dugtrio-Filler (Defensive Pivot)

Seems like it would take out just about anything... barring rain.
 
In short, your last sentence pretty much says it all. You shouldn't really be using Dugtrio outside the roles of revenge killer and Chansey / Registeel weakener. Outside of those two niches, Dugtrio is frankly terrible. However, it is because of its ability to fulfill those two niches extremely well that its tiering status is being questioned. A Pokemon does not need to fit perfectly into one of the "Uber" characteristics to be voted BL. They are merely guidelines.
I really must wonder if this is enough though, unless we want to consider moving it up all the way to Uber. After all, couldn't some of this same logic apply to its use in OU? It's great at revenge killing stuff like Blissey, Heatran (assuming no Shuca Berry/it already being take care of, since we aren't assuming Shed Shell/Shuca Berry for Registeel or Chansey here), Electivire, Jirachi, and most Infernape (looking at the stats, most don't run Focus Sash or a priority move). Thus, under that same logic, if that's what's being proposed to make it BL, then would it not also be Uber for similar reasons? This makes me wonder.

In any case though, personally, I don't feel this is enough, as it's only particularly effective against particular Pokemon in UU (namely, Registeel and Chansey). There really isn't a wide spectrum of commonly used Pokemon it can blast through to support the team, unlike other Pokemon that were banned under the Support Clause, like Latias (well, potentially at least), which can open up holes on teams by destroying any number of Pokemon--it's mostly just those handful of Pokemon that Dugtrio really shines against, and I'm just not sure that's enough, especially since under that line of logic, as I mentioned, could have us going all the way to voting it Uber were it actually followed through all the way, which just doesn't sit well with me.

Plus, the fact is that there are things that Chansey and Registeel can do to defend themselves against Dugtrio, while not making themselves useless in other situations--namely, using Shed Shell (just as Steels like Skarmory sometimes use it to defend itself against Magenzone in OU, with no cries of Magnezone being broken due to the fact that it's pretty much the only reason Skarmory runs it at all, and, back to Dugtrio, being just another reason for Heatran to use Shuca Berry or a Scarf, where there again haven't been any cries for it being Uber). With that, Dugtrio loses its ability to trap them and thus becomes no different from any other revenge killer--a good one, but hardly a broken one, IMO. Shed Shell may not be their best option, true, but they can run it without becoming terrible Pokemon. And since similar situations aren't causing a ruckus in OU (see: the aforementioned Steel-trapping Magenzone "forcing" some of the OU steels to run Shed Shell, prominently Skarmory, a comparable Pokemon to Registeel, to stop it from revenge killing them without it being an issue (or, to put it slightly differently, there are no cries for banning Magenzone over the holes in teams it creates by beating potential defensive cores like Skarmory, and also stuff like Foretress)), I don't see why we would suddenly turn around and actually ban Dugtrio under this logic.

Dugtrio definitely is a good revenge killer, and it's great at what it does, yes. However, I just can't see the justification for banning it right now. There may in fact be good reason for banning it which may yet be discovered/posted, but looking over the discussion thus far, I'm not seeing a good enough reason at this point and time.
 
Thats an interesting thing to point out Naxte. I think what might make Dugtrio BL(which I personally don't think it is) but not uber is that
-Blissey the only special wall in OU Dugtrio is taking out (its not taking out Latias any time soon), while Dugtrio can take out most of the special walls in UU (Chansey, Registeel, Clefable)
-Chansey is less defensively bulky than Blissey (and Blissey can use Ice Beam)
Nonetheless, its an interesting concept.
 
Dugtrio has a shitload of problems in OU. First of all, OUs are more bulky and versatile in general, so getting rid of one Pokemon won't guarantee shit. There are still five other Pokemon on the team, each one just as strong as the last, who will simply kill it, Pursuit it, or set up on its ass before it causes any major damage.

So you killed my Blissey. Great. Here comes Mence, thanks for the free DD/Draco Meteor. Right behind him, I have Crocune waiting to run through your team. Thanks for playing.

Dugtrio's supporting ability plays a much bigger role in UU where not everything has over 100-something defenses and the ability to float. But I still think it's funny everyone's considering it suspect, since having only one flimsy counter to oppose Raikou or Moltres is more of testament on the sweeper's part than Dugtrio's ability to get rid of it.

Next, let's nominate Venusaur for BL since it puts stuff to sleep and lets my sweepers get a free setup turn.
 
I do not think the fact that people don't perceive something as a threat is a valid reason to ignore the possibility of something being a suspect. But this isn't really the main problem I find with your reasoning. Leftovers is so much more useful on defensive Pokemon that some players will forgo the use of Shed Shell. However, in the higher levels of competitive UU (which is mostly dominated by stall), I know for a fact that players use Shed Shell to prevent Dugtrio from taking out a part of their defensive core. Just because the "average" player found on the ladder doesn't recognize that Dugtrio is a large threat, doesn't mean that those who know their stuff, if you will, don't.

Keep in mind that I have not formed an opinion on Dugtrio's tiering status and am speaking objectively here.

I think you're missing the point.

The point is that a surefire counter to Dugtrio already exists: Shed Shell. To use it, you give up Leftovers recovery - a significant loss, but not as major as using a different Pokemon for example. So the only reason people run Leftovers instead of Shed Shell is they don't think Dugtrio is enough a threat to run Shed Shell.

It seems to me that Dugtrio gives the impression of being BL to panamaxis and franky because people don't perceive Dugtrio as enough of a threat to run Shed Shell. If at the top of the UU ladder players do perceive Dugtrio as enough of a threat to run Shed Shell, then too bad for Dugtrio. A Dugtrio that can't trap is very much weaker and doesn't deserve BL at all. Therefore at the top of the UU ladder Dugtrio isn't BL.

Do you see what I'm getting at? If at the bottom of the ladder opponents switch Sceptile into Moltres, enabling a Moltres sweep, does that make Moltres BL? If at the bottom of the ladder you can reliably use Dugtrio to enable a Raikou sweep, but you can't at the top, is Dugtrio BL? Even if players don't run Shed Shell at the top of the ladder, enabling the Raikou sweep, so what? The answer to the Raikou sweep is right around the corner, all players have to do is use it.

In short, I think Dugtrio being BL is more a case of people not adapting than Dugtrio actually being BL. As such, I don't think the arguments presented thus far are convincing.

PS: I think Naxte hit all the nails on the head.
 
People are acting as though Dugtrio means that Chansey and Registeel just instantly die. This is not the case.

LO Jolly Duggy does a depressing 43.2% - 50.9% to Chansey, meaning if it uses Wish or Toxic on the switch, it wins easily by stalling it out. Registeel takes 59.3% - 69.8%, which is marginally better...of course, Iron Head does 63.7% - 75% back, so it only "beats" Registeel at the cost of its own life. And you'd better hope it's not a Curse variant, because it ohkos you with Iron Head if it Curses on the switch while taking meh damage from Earthquake. This is all ignoring the fact that these things can just run Shed Shell if they really want to (like Skarm does).

Dugtrio is just not anywhere near BL material. To be perfectly honest, if you wanted to nom Duggy BL for its ability to trap Chansey/Registeel, you might as well nom Trapinch too (which actually has better defenses on the physical side...no, really) because it does exactly as well against both Chansey and Registeel.

Of course Duggy is much more useful in general, but this seems to be one of those "on principle" banning discussions, not a ban where the Pokemon is actually causing any sort of centralization or significant imbalance in the metagame.
 
Do you see what I'm getting at? If at the bottom of the ladder opponents switch Sceptile into Moltres, enabling a Moltres sweep, does that make Moltres BL? If at the bottom of the ladder you can reliably use Dugtrio to enable a Raikou sweep, but you can't at the top, is Dugtrio BL? Even if players don't run Shed Shell at the top of the ladder, enabling the Raikou sweep, so what? The answer to the Raikou sweep is right around the corner.

In short, I think Dugtrio being BL is more a case of people not adapting than Dugtrio actually being BL. As such, I don't think the arguments presented thus far are convincing.

I think this is absolutely correct. Once people actually recognise Dugtrio to be a threat, he won't be as dangerous. Anyway, Banedon, great argument there, you should apply this to Rain and Raikou as well.
 
The difference between Rain, Raikou and Dugtrio being that "adapting" to the first two is a lot harder than just swapping out an item on your walls...and Dugtrio sucking outside its specific niche and Raikou/Rain being fantastic in all sorts of situations.

It's like comparing Magnezone to Garchomp, it makes no more than superficial sense.
 
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