NP: UU - Silent Night

[Sir Azelf]

If anything is broken on Aggron (and I don't think there is), it's Rock Polish. It reaches a speed of 432, which is plenty to sweep UU, but Aggron's just too fragile Specially, and any Mach Punch in UU can ruin it. It needs far too much support to be broken on its own. But give it Screens, a reliable absorber of its weaknesses, and maybe a layer or two of Spikes, and it's gg.

Thats kinda my problem, you need to revenge kill it (which is hard enough in itself if its the RPer - 432 speed after a RP is even faster than alot of scarfers.) Also anything with Mach Punch takes ridiculous amounts of damage from anything on its set. Aggron really doesn't take as much support as you are making out and it gets plenty of free switch ins, more than you'd expect. I find Aggron easier to get into play than Rhyperior and of course you don't have to switch out of shit like Milotic which Rhyperior has problems with because you outspeed defensive versions and are 2hkoing it every time.

Aggron is versatile even though it may not seem it and the ridiculous power of Head Smash - those combined and you have a very dangerous combination.

If it Subs on the switch ? Weee you just lost your ground type counter and it gets a free Magnet Rise.

If its CB. "Good luck switching anything into it"

If its RP then as i said in my paragraph, then it can just use Head Smash on the switch then every single one of its ground type counter is in its coverage move range apart from Steelix, but even then Steelix despises Low Kicks/Aqua Tails. Then its basically free to sweep.

Its horribly difficult to deal with something like that. Even using resistances against the absurd power of Head Smash is often futile.

 

[shrang]

weezing comes in on venusaur, eats leaf storm, gets slept. later weezing eats sludge bomb. hitmonlee can now sweep.

registeel absorbs leaf storm, gets slept. later on mismagius comes in, nasty plots, and can 2hko without getting paralyzed or taking damage.

chansey comes in to take a sleep powder or leaf storm, but instead takes a power whip. manectric now sweeps.

opponent gets gutsy and has nothing to sweep, brings in milotic on n obvious sleep powder. venusauf leaf storms. houndoom sweeps.

you cannot know what venusaur will do without knowledge of the set. even if you do know it, it has two great attacking options and sleep, or boosting moves and good coverage and stab moves. you cant say that venusaur is predictable.

You could say this about a lot of Pokemon. Hell, CB Rhyperior can come into you weak attacks and Stone Edge 70% onto your Milotic. Now <Insert Fire type> or Feraligatr can sweep. Blowing holes and incapacitating Pokemon =/= Support Characteristic. Otherwise you can say every Pokemon fits this because your goal, at the end of day, is to kill every single one of your opponent's Pokemon. Hey look, I used <Insert random Pokemon here> to KO an opposing Pokemon. He fits the Support Characteristic!! Unless your Pokemon is able to selectively remove a certain target (e.g. Wobbuffet, Tyranitar), the Support Characteristic is very loosely associated with. Like RaikouLover said in the Salamence thread, people need to know the difference between a lure and the Support Characteristic.

 

[Bad Ass]

alakazam is not bl at all. his frailty holds him back a lot; you need to save him for the late game and lure out tomb or uxie or whatever and kill it (violates the with little support part of the OC). it also needs to come in after something is dead, preferably, to kill something; not a guarantee. sdef milotic doesnt suffer a 2hko from modest lo psychic. alakazam, while hard to bring into, is virtually impossible to bring in without making a sac yourself.

 

[SJCrew]

Is that a bad thing?

If it were, Lucario would already be an OU suspect by this point.

See, I was going to use Alakazam earlier until I realized it had zero defenses and couldn't switch in on anything. Then I had to avoid priority like the plague and make sure my opponent didn't have Spiritomb...get some Uturn on my team to help it switch in safely...it doesn't support shit either, so it's not getting by on that...

Yeah, I think Alakazam is fine in UU.

 

[FlameHeart]

I've been making use of CB Aggron lately, I have to say, it is quite a beast. It hits prety darn hard. He's also pretty bulky with dual screens and sandstorm support. However, I don't think it's really BL material though. Although who ever switches in is in pain, the one who comes in after tends to be a problem. I can't say much about RP as I havn't used one.

 

[Arcticblast]

I've been making use of CB Aggron lately, I have to say, it is quite a beast. It hits prety darn hard. He's also pretty bulky with dual screens and sandstorm support. However, I don't think it's really BL material though. Although who ever switches in is in pain, the one who comes in after tends to be a problem. I can't say much about RP as I havn't used one.

Any Rock-type is bulky under sandstorm support. However, Aggron IS a pain to take down, and often requires sacrificing something.

 

[Bluewind]

Aggron IS a pain to take down, and often requires sacrificing something.
Blaziken IS a pain to switch into, and often requires sacrificing something.
Mismagius IS a pain to counter, and often requires sacrificing something.
Alakazam IS a pain to counter, and often requires sacrificing something.

So on...

 

[GOTO2435]

Yeah, but both missy and alakazam are fully countered by spiritomb, ken can easily be played around and aggron is owned by priority, none of them are that hard to take down either

 

[SJCrew]

Aggron doesn't require a sacrifice. Even though it's weak to common attacking types, it's still a Steel type. And of course, we all know what that means: resistances. Aggron has no problem coming in on your pussy little Uxie or Ice Beam from something that can't kill it and spamming Head Smash.

Running Jolly may seem like a folly when you could just go for the attack power, but Head Smash is so damn strong, it doesn't even matter. Remember, move BP takes heavy priority over attack power, so Head Smash is still getting those OHKOs or 2HKOs it would have to begin with. If this guy ever becomes popular, I'm just gonna cut the crap and break out Steelix.

 

[Bluewind]

I really dislike these understatements. Alakazam and Missy lose to Spiritomb, fine, they cause problems to other 51 mons (Registeel isn't a solid counter to them, before someone brings it up; while Drapion and Skuntank hate switching into Focus Blast against the former and WoW sets against the latter). Blaziken can be "easily played around" just as much as your opponent can "predict around your easy play" (also, find me more than 1 or 2 mons that can counter SD Ken without depending on the moveset it's running). And no, Aggron isn't "owned by priority", it's weak to priority moves like Water and Fighting only (that I recall, I'm sleepy), and has mammoth physical defenses, which means 80% of the priority moves will barely scratch it (Azumarill's Aqua Jet doesn't come close of KOing).

Point is, even though the ladder is filled with people that don't have the slightest idea of what they are doing, let's stop assuming everything is easy to work around because people don't know how to use them.

Edit: Jolly is ran on Aggron in order outspeed Milotic, thus beating it if it switches in (as long as Head Smash hits and it isn't running Speed EVs); not because Aggron is a shit wrecker.

 

[PK Gaming]

... What?!? Wasn't Aggron considered bad to threads ago? A pokemon who changed because of one move, but was considered a failure by many and not up to par. No, I'm not making it up, you guys usually suggested that I (or others) use Rhyperior.

Why the sudden hype? Anywho, I was thinking of making an alternative to the subrise set by using Low Kick. Sure Focus Punch is always stronger, but sometimes you can get that key 2HKO on pokemon like Registeel and Rhyperior without resorting to using Subs. I think it needs more speed EV's too, because Rhyperiors are running a lot more speed than they use too.

 

[GOTO2435]

I carry a spiritomb in every one of my teams this round just to keep Missy at bay, i really don´t know how much damage it can so if you can´t counter it properly, same goes for zam, if Tomb is dead before they come in i usually lose one of my pokes and revenge them with a scarfer, Still you shouldn´t have a team without a spiritomb or one or two mons that can check Missy and Zam or you are actually begging to get raped by them. Milotic works as a very good all around counter to blaziken, as well as slowbro.

Aggron isn´t OHKO´d by all priority but here are some calcs of some stuff that can survive a switch in to CB Aggron and kill it:
Technitop takes 55.6% - 65.8% from head smash on the switch in while dealing 95.4% - 115.3% with LO mach punch in return.
NP Toxicroak takes 75.2% - 88.9% from head smash on the switch in while destroying Aggron in return (153.7% - 180.8%) with vacuum wave.
Standard bulky milo takes 69.5% - 81.9% from head smash while OHKOing with surf
Slowbro takes 55.8% - 66.2% and OHKO´s with surf too
Blastoise also survives the switch in and deals 96.1% - 113.9% with surf
Donphan takes 35.3% - 41.6% from head smash and OHKO´s with earthquake
Physical wall Steelix is barely scratched by head smash (11.3% - 13.2%) and deals 95.4% - 115.3%. If steelix comes in on a low kick because of a misprediction, it takes 53.7% - 63.3% not near a KO.

 

[SJCrew]

I know why Jolly is ran, and I also happen to know that Milotic has to run an absurd amount of Speed EVs to beat it. Nobody is going to skimp out on that much bulk just to beat one Pokemon, especially when it means you can get OHKOed on the switch-in by said Pokemon.

@ PK: That one dude's nomination brought it to my attention that Head Smash 2HKOs Hitmontop even after Intimidate. That's absolutely sick. Also, I've slowly learned over time the significance of having a strong signature attack as opposed to pure power. Medicham would absolutely love a strong STAB move that nothing is immune to and neutralizes most of its switch-ins.

And for the record, I don't recall ever saying Aggron was bad per se, though I do recall advocating Rhyperior as the premier wallbreaker in UU. Head Smash is fantastic, but I do love being immune to Twave and tearing up Registeel for even thinking it can come in and set up.

 

[Meru]

I wish Umbreon was back in UU. It's such a foolproof Missy counter that most began using TrickScarf Missy.

Now we all have to run the massive hetero that is Spiritomb on literally every team. -__-

 

[Sir Azelf]

Aggron isn´t OHKO´d by all priority but here are some calcs of some stuff that can survive a switch in to CB Aggron and kill it:
Technitop takes 55.6% - 65.8% from head smash on the switch in while dealing 95.4% - 115.3% with LO mach punch in return.
NP Toxicroak takes 75.2% - 88.9% from head smash on the switch in while destroying Aggron in return (153.7% - 180.8%) with vacuum wave.
Standard bulky milo takes 69.5% - 81.9% from head smash while OHKOing with surf
Slowbro takes 55.8% - 66.2% and OHKO´s with surf too
Blastoise also survives the switch in and deals 96.1% - 113.9% with surf
Donphan takes 35.3% - 41.6% from head smash and OHKO´s with earthquake
Physical wall Steelix is barely scratched by head smash (11.3% - 13.2%) and deals 95.4% - 115.3%. If steelix comes in on a low kick because of a misprediction, it takes 53.7% - 63.3% not near a KO.

Those are all 2hko'd which further proves my point - none of them can switch in at all and all of them are 2hko'd with ease and everything bar Toxicroak and Technitops priority is outsped. Even then id call something really shaky as a check taking that much damage switching in alone.

Donphan has problem with non choiced variants as Head Smash puts it in Aqua Tail range and Magnet Rise set poops all over it.

@Mero, i too miss Umbreon. It covered so much and really hurt stall when it went. Without Umbreon you have to dedicate more slots to Rotom and Missy counters and stall is already hard pressed enough for team slots as it is. Oh well, maybe noobs will stop using in in ou. :/

 

[jamashawalker]

... What?!? Wasn't Aggron considered bad to threads ago? A pokemon who changed because of one move, but was considered a failure by many and not up to par.

Many pokemon got a MAJOR upgrade because of just ONE move...
Scizor + Bullet Punch
Salamence+Outrage
Honchkrow+ Brave Bird

Not to say that those pokes were "bad", but getting one move changed the entire metagame...The fact that aggron can just spam head smash without any worry is a bit scary

 

[SJCrew]

Mismagius's downfall is usually her power. She really needs a free NP/CM setup on something before she truly becomes threatening, or something bulky will just keep breaking her subs or KO on the spot.

 

[shrang]

Many pokemon got a MAJOR upgrade because of just ONE move...
Scizor + Bullet Punch
Salamence+Outrage
Honchkrow+ Brave Bird

Not to say that those pokes were "bad", but getting one move changed the entire metagame...The fact that aggron can just spam head smash without any worry is a bit scary

Aggron got Head Smash way before that. I'm think PK is talking about just a few rounds ago, when Raikou was still present. Nothing has changed since then.

 

[Thund91]

Point is, even though the ladder is filled with people that don't have the slightest idea of what they are doing, let's stop assuming everything is easy to work around because people don't know how to use them.

100% agree.

If decisions were left to the majority of ladderers than Scizor would be in UU and Charizard would be Uber, just cause they're
"omg liek pwnzors."

EDIT:Again...mention of Spiritomb as the sole Zam counter. Someone name me another one please that isn't priority.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Chansey?

Spiritomb might be the only reliable 100% counter, but it's okay to sacrifice and force out because that's the only way Alakazam is coming in anyway.

 

[Thund91]

Chansey?

Spiritomb might be the only reliable 100% counter, but it's okay to sacrifice and force out because that's the only way Alakazam is coming in anyway.

So the Pokemon that's 2HKO'd/Tricked is a counter, awesome. Chansey can counter the dual screen set which is just gonna set up screens than gtfo. Great counter Chansey is.

I never sacrifice a Pokemon to send Zam in? Zam is easily able to abuse the fact that Venusaur is number one by partnering with Milotic and we all know how much Venusaur loves switching into Milotic. Also support moves are everywhere, and on top of that Zam has the fastest Encore in the game. SD, Sub, NP are everywhere and Alakazam can switch into all users of those and just fuck the switch in.

 

[Ice-eyes]

So you're going to Milotic, then double-switching? Smart, but if they're gutsy or if their Grass-type counter happens to be Sceptile...

Not to mention that defensive Milotic and Alakazam don't tend to mesh well into the same team.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Not to mention that defensive Milotic and Alakazam don't tend to mesh well into the same team.

Milotic doesn't mesh well with something? News to me :o

 

[shrang]

EDIT:Again...mention of Spiritomb as the sole Zam counter. Someone name me another one please that isn't priority.

Number of counters does not inversely correlate to whether a Pokemon is BL/Uber or not. Let's not forget Alakazam also has quite a number of checks. One great example to compare Alakazam to: Gengar. Gengar pretty much has no counters, but nowhere near Ubers. Reason?? It's pretty much the same as Alakazam, great Speed and power but crap all on bulk, except that it has immunities to switch in with.

 

[capefeather]

I'm reminded of CB Rhyperior's 3HKO on Hitmontop all the time :( (remembered the wrong thing lol)

Also, base power's typical importance over base Attack is simply because at larger numbers the differences between base Attack stats don't overcome multipliers that the lower stat might be enjoying. Not to mention Aggron already has very good base Attack. Its Head Smash is more powerful than Rampardos's Stone Edge...