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np: UU - Six Deadly Suspects

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After talking with Caelum and Great Sage, we have come to the following agreement:

1) The required rating is 1550/45. Their is no upper tier.
2) A paragraph will have to be sent to us in order to see that you have been testing throughout the whole period and are voting according to the excepted definitions of BL.

caelum edit: before you guys freak out at the "low" 45 deviation I suggest looking at your records first. If you are aiming for a high rating, yeah it's hard to get 45 in a short amount of time. If you just play normally you should have no difficulty obtaining 45 if you just play consistently.
 
ouch, 45 deviation is going to be tough. As much as I hate it, I sort of miss Crobat, it kept shaymin in check and shaymin is probably the biggest threat in this new UU.

EDIT: after looking over my stats, 45 deviation doesn't seem as tough as I originally thought.
 
All the requirements are mentioned in the post. If it's not mentioned or hinted at, it's not a requirement.
 
Well, in a way, the discussion we had on the previous page also explains the abundance of stall in UU.

Basically, in DP, I think it's fair to say that an offensive Pokemon is generally better than a defensive Pokemon. This means that most of the OU Pokemon are offensive. This means, that the offensively orientated Pokemon left in UU aren't so amazingly powerful, because the top 30 or so sweepers are OU. However, since defensively orientated Pokemon generally fair worse in DP, there's less of them in OU (10, for example). This means that only the 10 best defensive Pokemon are banned from UU.

This means, that, now, in UU, the defensive Pokemon are generally stronger in comparison to the offensive Pokemon, because less of them made OU.

This was sort of hard to explain, but I hope someone sees what I mean. It's basically the same 'wave-like' effect that we're seeing in terms of the Dragon/Steels and Fire/Grasses. I would be willing to bet a lot that, if UU does end up defesively-based, NU will end up offensively-based.
 
Stall is annoyingly quite present in the metagame, Offensive teams not really having any chance at all. I honestly feel a banning all these suspects would not be a great idea. Gallade, Raikou, and Crobat deserve to stay in my opinion.
 
If I were to be able to vote right now, I would probably unban Crobat, and possibly, maybe, Raikou. Stall is really irritating, and apart from Clefable, there just isn't enough offensive power. Only Blaziken or Magmortar have the wall-breaking capacity to effectively beat stall.
 
I have to agree Stall Teams are really annoying right now. Only offensive tool is Mismagius which is probably the primary Stall Breaker. If anything we eliminated a vast amount of sweepers and not enough broken walls. I felt Clefable needed a mention for suspect. As of right now bringing back Gallade should do the trick.
 
Too be honest, I think its the "Fault" of the definitions that its this way. Almost all of the Pokemon that have been banned from a tier were always because they fit the offensive characteristic. Its much harder to nominate walls because they all have some sort of weakness. Spiritomb for example can be taken out, but its an incredibly annoying task, especially if you lose half your PP trying. Raikou helped with Spiritomb as well.

I didnt even bring up Walls like Spiritomb up during the nominations, but come to think of it, imagine a Stall team without Spiritomb?

How the metagame looks at the moment, i would have to i would like to vote Shaymin as a suspect, as it also helps Stall teams, taking out other offensive teams with its Bulky Offense.
 
HeYsUp said:
Too be honest, I think its the "Fault" of the definitions that its this way. Almost all of the Pokemon that have been banned from a tier were always because they fit the offensive characteristic. Its much harder to nominate walls because they all have some sort of weakness. Spiritomb for example can be taken out, but its an incredibly annoying task, especially if you lose half your PP trying. Raikou helped with Spiritomb as well.

I didnt even bring up Walls like Spiritomb up during the nominations, but come to think of it, imagine a Stall team without Spiritomb?

How the metagame looks at the moment, i would have to i would like to vote Shaymin as a suspect, as it also helps Stall teams, taking out other offensive teams with its Bulky Offense.
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I agree, Tomb has always been the annoyance of the metagame. Yet why bring back Raikou and friends if Spiritomb is the one causing the problem?

One thing is for sure - we cannot ban Tomb AND bring back Raikou and friends. Because otherwise we'll end up with a metagame like OU is right now... which I do not favor at all.

Now Shaymin, that could possibly be something that could be gotten rid of. Just make sure that repalcements like Venusaur, Meganium, and Tanengrowth can apply enough levarage not to make stall extinct. I (and I'm guessing most everyone) wants a metagame with as many playing styles possible, and making stall extinct will rid of that, as for the five or so styles of offense there are, there are quadruple the number of basic stall strategies.

As for banning some of those things, also make sure Blaziken and Magmortar are not "ripping through teams" with so much ease. It shouldn't be "easy" to sweep.

Also, I think maybe you're ignoring the plethora of stat-boosters that exist in UU. None of them are as perfect as the ones in OU, but some can do their job very well. Just take time to look at who lears the boosting moves, from Swords Dance, to Calm Mind.

And what are you talking about offensive teams not having any chance at all? Rain Dance? Baton Pass Toxi Gligar? Stat Boosters? Sunny Day? Sandstorm Slow-Sweeping? Trick Room? There is many options, I think though that you have to be clever to get around the walls. But that is my opinion.
 
I use to think Shaymin is the root of all evil but lately she has hardly effected my teams at all. In fact, my counter (yes counter) enjoys having the free turn ripping up what ever comes in next. I don't think that in any instance Shaymin should be elected for suspect.
 
You may be right.

So the problems people have with Shaymin are
-it's bulk - destroyed rather quckly by anything that hits it supereffective, really. You don't need too much power if you can survive a seed flare.
-leech seed - Usually only on stallers, and has problems as grasses often switch in on Shaymin, and those Grasses run HP Ice or Fire or Sludge Bomb. Also, Shaymin that run Leech Seed often run more defenses, and sometimes don't even have seed flare (mine does not) Admitidly though, Seed Flare does present a problem for those Grasses.
-Seed Flare - again, not always on the set, and if your resist has decent special defense and HP, you will be surviving. Specs are locked into a move and forced to switch. Life Orb is weakening itself so it can be killed.
-Rest - Taunt works to stop it, and it is usually run on the less bulky Shaymin (the more bulky ones run Leech Seed, and so won't be using Rest). The move also causes Shaymin to switch out, giving you a nice chance to get in and set up.

So yeah, what are your disagreements with Shaymin anyways. Normally, it's either powerful or bulky. I have yet to see one that is both. Although it's speed may be the thing causing the problem...
 
The main reason for Shaymin's apparent increase in potency is the removal of Crobat, Froslass, Raikou, Staraptor and to a lesser extent Abomasnow. No shit an already good Pokemon is going to get more potent when you remove the majority of its common checks.

Anyway, I'm still not getting this stall issue at all. The vast majority of players I face up at the top play a team with some element of offense, and any stall teams I generally find easy to deal with. In general they struggle to stand up to powerful wallbreakers backed up by screens.
 
Relictivity said:
You may be right.

So the problems people have with Shaymin are
-it's bulk - destroyed rather quckly by anything that hits it supereffective, really. You don't need too much power if you can survive a seed flare.
-leech seed - Usually only on stallers, and has problems as grasses often switch in on Shaymin, and those Grasses run HP Ice or Fire or Sludge Bomb. Also, Shaymin that run Leech Seed often run more defenses, and sometimes don't even have seed flare (mine does not) Admitidly though, Seed Flare does present a problem for those Grasses.
-Seed Flare - again, not always on the set, and if your resist has decent special defense and HP, you will be surviving. Specs are locked into a move and forced to switch. Life Orb is weakening itself so it can be killed.
-Rest - Taunt works to stop it, and it is usually run on the less bulky Shaymin (the more bulky ones run Leech Seed, and so won't be using Rest). The move also causes Shaymin to switch out, giving you a nice chance to get in and set up.

So yeah, what are your disagreements with Shaymin anyways. Normally, it's either powerful or bulky. I have yet to see one that is both. Although it's speed may be the thing causing the problem...
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Most of that is completely wrong, Shaymin can survive almost any unboosted Super Effective Attack. Shaymin is really fast too, so its not just surviving a Seed Flare, its surviving two. Earthpower renders the hard Hitting Fire Types useless as well.

Sub+Seed Shaymin usually carry Air Slash, which 2HKOs any grass type.

Taunting Shaymin is nearly pointless too, as anything with Taunt is easily 2HKOd, and/or is Slower than Shaymin.

100/100/100 Defenses ARE Bulky without any EVs, especially with natural Rest.
Metric said:
Stall isn't as prominent as you people seem to suggest, yes it is there, but I feel that there is actually a good balance within the types of teams that are now being seen.

Finally, "balanced" teams can consistantly be successful as opposed to before the bannings, when in order to be truly successful one needed to either be highly geared towards offence, or run a mean stall team.
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Well i disagree with this too, Stall is everywhere. Stall doesnt mean "uses Toxic Spikes" it means "defensively based to wear the opponent down slowly". Even before the bannings STall was a much more prominent Tactic than offense, it has almost always been the case in UU.
 
I dont really agree with everyone saying stall is everywhere, I think when people see two or three defensive pokemon on a team they automatically think "Stall" and not "balanced".
 
HeYsUp said:
Most of that is completely wrong, Shaymin can survive almost any unboosted Super Effective Attack. Shaymin is really fast too, so its not just surviving a Seed Flare, its surviving two. Earthpower renders the hard Hitting Fire Types useless as well.

Sub+Seed Shaymin usually carry Air Slash, which 2HKOs any grass type.

Taunting Shaymin is nearly pointless too, as anything with Taunt is easily 2HKOd, and/or is Slower than Shaymin.

100/100/100 Defenses ARE Bulky without any EVs, especially with natural Rest.


Well i disagree with this too, Stall is everywhere. Stall doesnt mean "uses Toxic Spikes" it means "defensively based to wear the opponent down slowly". Even before the bannings STall was a much more prominent Tactic than offense, it has almost always been the case in UU.
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Emr... actually, I mentioned most of this, the main problems with Shaymin are it's good defenses (though supereffective moves will eventually break it) and it's speed. If anything, I would say it's speed is what might break it, as it means we lose a whole list of things that can stop it. However, I would like to take a longer look at Shaymin before making up my mind on it. As you can see, I was of two minds with the previous posts. Just make sure Blaziken and Magmortar don't get TOO powerful. As of now, I have yet to use an offensive Shaymin... so I'll have to try that one out.

I have found for subseed though that Earth Power / HP Ice works better because of type coverage.

@Metric - I do agree, running mix teams is so much more effective now, it opens up so many more options :)

@HeYsUp - there are some offensive powers that have pretty decent offences. You might also try fooling the walls that try to switch in to you with status, debilitating them, and bringing your sweeper back in later on in the match.
 
Random Pizzaman said:
I dont really agree with everyone saying stall is everywhere, I think when people see two or three defensive pokemon on a team they automatically think "Stall" and not "balanced".
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Anything that relies on 3 "walls" is a stall team in my opinion. A team consisting of (for example) Chansey/ Registeel/ Slowbro (Standard) has to be considered stall oriented as there is an obvious lack of offense there. Also, the only poke that I listed that could qualify as "Bulky Sweeper" would be Slowbro. So it can't be considered a bulky offense like back in Old UU.

Next off, a little off topic but nNU will also be primarily stall. I admit that I've yet to take a look at usuage charts but some decent walls have been seeing less and less use. Some example would be Regice, Regirock, Weezing, and Tangrowth. However, in retrospect there are some great untouched offensive pokemon like Houndoom (especially Houndoom), Slaking (in NU hahaha), Ursarang, Pinsir, and Entei. Oh wow, NU is going to be superbly interesting.
 
Stall isn't nearly as omnipresent or impossible to break as this thread would have you believe. If you really have so many problems, simply run a Blaziken or Magmortar as stated before. But those aren't the only options. You can run Nidoking, who absorbs Toxic Spikes, is immune to Toxic, and can run a mixed set effectively. Shaymin + anything that beats Chansey works well against stall, especially after losing Crobat, who was starting to become a staple.

For spinning a Foresight Rapid Spin Hitmontop is basically a guaranteed spin and also provides some decent offense or defense depending on your build. Claydol is a wall with tons of useful resists and he can also do his share of spinning.

Clefable shuts down the main source of damage for stall, residual damage. Ambipom/Mismagius/Floatzel/Drapion etc. are all taunters faster than anything you'd want to taunt in a stall team.

Mismagius is hard for some stall teams to deal with, unless they pack a specific counter or are playing Sandstorm. That's because Chansey can't do anything to it and other special walls tend to use special attacks, which your Calm Minds can take care of. If you get p.hazed, save it for last and see how your opponent likes that (although it does have nice spikes/t.spikes immunity).

I consider myself a stall player, so I know that this style of team is certainly not broken. People think Spikes Roserades are cheap, well, compare it to, say, Skarmory. Roserade is basically a desperation Pokemon due to lack of viable Spikers. Slowbro is cheap? Run mixed sweepers to abuse Slowbro's speed. Clefable is cheap? Well its probably more annoying for them than for you. In fact, I myself have laddered 100% of my games on my future voting account with an offensive team, to abuse the real broken things, SHAYMIN.
 
Uh... I have some bulky sweepers you might consider

These all have stat-boosting moves that turn them into wall breakers, that are quite bulky.

Slowbro, Slowking, Pinsir, Relicanth, Regirock, Regice, Torterra, Omnastar, Moltres, Porygon-2, Gardevoir, Mesprit, Mismagius, Drifblim, Entei, Spiritomb, Ferligatr, Altaria, Hariyama, Hitmontop, Leafeon, Tanengrowth
 
I don't really see stall teams as too much of a problem. Not that I like walls spamming toxic constantly, but it's managable. I use a taunt lead, 2 wallbreakers, and 2 walls, and it's pretty easy to balance as long as you're covered all of your bases. I agree that mixed nidoking does a very good job of eliminating the toxic wall threats, anyways.

About the new requirements- my rating falls just barely above it... but my deviation is double that. :(
 
Jabba in the house about to drop his CRAZY VIEWS on this topic. First I'll address all the suspects and how the metagame is without them. Then I'll go over what I feel are the biggest threats in the new metagame.

Gallade - The loss of probably the best STAB Close Combat user was pretty big. The other fighters (Primeape, Hitmonlee) aren't really used that much. Don't know why. I figure Primeape would be pretty good right now with all the sleep running around. This has allowed teams to generally not have to worry about doubling or even tripling up on their fighting weakness. Nothing yet has proven to be as scary as this guy yet with one turn of set up, though I'm guessing something might pop up soon (I've seen teams having difficulty handling Quick Feet Ursaring maybe it's worth a shot!?). All in all i think the metagame is definitely a bit better with this guy out of the picture even if it allows my douche opponent to use Registeel, Clefable and Chansey all on the same team.

Abomasnow - I haven't seen any teams using Snover as a replacement, so I'm wondering how it would fare. While auto-weather is definitely the breaking point for Abomasnow I still think the 100% Blizzard off of pretty alright special attack is pretty fucking hard to deal with. Then on top of that it gives hard hitters like Glaceon the same opportunity. I definitely think a UU without Hail is a better UU.

Staraptor - This motherfucker being made suspect was definitely amazing. It was hard as fuck to make a team and cover for Staraptor. I never faced the Sub Life Orb set either which is probably a good thing I'd imagine. I haven't seen any normal types really step up and take Staraptor's place. You'd think Tauros would be a prime candidate but I don't think I've seen a single one yet. UU is definitely better with the scene bird.

Raikou - Eh. I thought at first that Raikou deserved to be suspect. But seeing the way the metagame has shaped up has made me rethink it. I will admit that the metagame seems a tad bit electric weak allowing even weird things like Manectric and Raichu to occasionally have their fun, but I don't really think Raikou would be too much of a burden on the metagame right now. I mean right from the get-go he had his counters and I'm personally under the belief that the only reason he was voted suspect were just preconceived notions based on Raikou's status in past generations.

Froslass - Froslass is one super annoying dick and the metagame is probably 100x better without it. But I don't think that makes Froslass bl. It's not "broken" by any sense of the word. Setting up maybe an average of 2 layers of spikes a game before dying is not what I'd consider bl under the support characteristic. I hope people see through the annoying factor and realize that what Froslass does, other pokemon can do too, but they're just not annoying when they do it.

Crobat - Crobat isn't even close to bl and him landing suspect is a tad ridiculous. Fast taunt + roost + weather may be pretty damn good, but it's not broken. Plenty of things can set up weather damn well. Uxie is probably a prime example. Yawn + sr + screens + weather + so many other things. If Crobat is suspect under the support characteristic then Uxie should be a guaranteed bl.

Honchkrow - Honchkrow is badass and as king I deem him best Pokemon in UU. Insomnia is pretty sweet, but the likelihood of Honchkrow having insomnia also makes Super Luck a nice choice. And trust me, Super Luck is an amazing ability especially when paired with night slash and I'm not going to lie it has saved my ass on a number of occasions. Fighting + Dark + Flying gives pretty sweet coverage and Honchkrow can really hit like a motherfucker. Recently I've seen a giant spike in Krow usage too with all shapes and sizes being used. Life Orb seems to be the most popular and in my opinion the best, but there have also been a lot of banded krow's showing their faces and I even saw a ScarfKrow which really gave my team a shitload of trouble. Krow is definitely awesome, but I just want to clarify it definitely IS NOT a suspect. The only Pokemon that may come close to that is: (oh and the mexican duck but that one comes later)

Shaymin - Life Orb and Subseed. Both sets are scary. I'm personally partial to the Subseed set because it's really pressed for counters while it sticks around forever while the life orb set can be easy to play around at times. I originally had the intention of nomming this thing for suspect the next time nominations came around, but I think I've changed my mind of late. Sure it may be the best Pokemon in UU (my fanboyism of Honchkrow excluded) but a tier always has to have a best Pokemon and I don't see this one being too much for the game to handle. Subseed really is a bitch though. Stall teams beware, it'll annoy the fuck out of you.

Spikers - Oh no Froslass is gone who do I get to spike from this terrible pool of spikers??? Stall teams have a formidable spiker in roserade I've noticed, though at times it can be extremely difficult to bring it in. For offensive teams I've used I've tried out omastar and smeargle. Omastar flat out blows, but Smeargle is even better than Froslass in my experiences with it. Running a set of Spore/Endeavor/Sr/Spikes you have so many options and so many ways to lead yourself off to a good start unless your opponent is an asshole and leads with taunt drapion. But usually at the very least you're pulling spore + sr which is pretty impressive. However a very good portion of the game doesn't run a lead that they're willing to sacrifice to sleep so you can pull spore + sr + 1 layer or if you want to cripple someone you can always pull that endeavor off. I definitely have love for the Smeargle, hasn't done me wrong yet.

Drapion - As mentioned above, Drapion can be a pretty impressive lead, being able to handle almost all setup leads with froslass and crobat out of the picture. It can also fill the role of Swords Dance sweeper pretty well or if you're a douchehead like one unnamed person on the ladder you can use scope lens and get 7 crits in a row which is pretty sweet if you're not the one being critted. I've always been a longtime fan of drapion in OU and gouki has made fun of my unfounded love for the weird scorpion, so it's only fitting that I also love it in UU. Personally I've resorted to running a max hp/max sp. def careful sd/3 attack set that's odd but kind of works. Or at least it keeps things like shaymin and roserade in check long enough for me to actually get in a position where i can outright kill them.

Roserade - Badass mon. However I just want to come out and say that Life Orb Roserade is fucking amazing and people need to try it out. I personally run a set of Sludge Bomb/Leaf Storm/Grass Knot/Rest, but if you're afraid of steel types there's nothing wrong with running hp fire > grass knot outside the obvious loss of 1 speed. Give it a shot it's pretty awesome.

Mismagius - Subcm mismagius is definitely completely underwhelming. I've been using it and quite frankly it rarely manages to pull a kill. However I can't drop it because I need the spinblocker, but if I didn't I would get rid of this fucker in a heart beat. Also I haven't had one of these pull more than a kill against me either, it really isn't that threatening.

Rhydon - LonelyNess has been ripping ass with this guy. I feel like a Rhydon stone edge is one of the scariest things in the metagame right now and I also feel that people are unprepared and aren't making sure they carry a rock resist. Though that doesn't really matter anyway since almost every rock resist in UU is going to be decimated by an EQ anyway. Yeah he's scary, but don't try him out since my team is rhydon weak.

Rain - As deadly as it was before the UU/BL merger if not deadlier with the ridiculous addition of that goddamn Ludicolo. Ludicolo is a pokemon I actually may consider nominating for suspect. Prior to the merger, Kabutops, Omastar and that weird fish thing whose name I forget dominated the Rain Dance market and a few people (including me) were calling for at least Kabutops to be moved to bl. Ludicolo in the current metagame blows all 3 of those out of the water (pun five!). Bitch is scary and I haven't come up with a reasonable way of dealing with it yet.

Spinners vs. Spin Blockers - I see a lot of people still trying to use Claydol as a spinner, which from what I've noticed so far is extremely extremely useless. In UU, there are almost zero spinners that can break the spin blockers. I say almost because some people have gotten crazy and started using foresight hitmontop just to get rid of spikes. I'd rather just make a team that deals well with spikes than waste a slot on such a shitty set, but hey to each his own.

Stall - There's a lot of talk recently by some people about stall being insane right now. It's not. It's far from insane. I'd say stall right now is "pretty good." Personally I think stall isn't even close to as good as it is in OU. The problem with UU stall is that it isn't a guaranteed win over Balanced teams. In OU, from my experiences at least, if your opponent was trying to break your stall with a balanced team, they would fail 9 times out of 10. However in UU, stall is easily broken by a balanced attack. It doesn't require a team of 6 life orbed mix sweepers to beat.

P.S. Clefable is a bitch
 
Well actually now that i think about it, its not the "stall teams" that are the annoying ones. Its the "Defensive Oriented" teams. The teams with Pokemon like Shaymin with bulky defenses, but powerful offense. Pokemon also like Spikes Roserade, who can hit hard and lay spikes.

The teams im talking about are usually carry something to whirlwind the spikes around, while also carrying strong Defensive Pokemon, but also having at least one Powerful sweeper. They ALL have spiritomb.

I think Blaziken is the best wall breaker, Nidoking can break "balanced" teams walls, because they are usually weak to Electric/Ground, but not a STall team, due to weak attacks, and Shaymin.

Shaymin pretty much stops everything in its tracks minus Roserade, Charizard and Moltres. I'd definately like to see it go.

Crobat i would not consider BL though, as his best atribute was to "counter" stall and Froslass.
 
hhjj, UU threads are not for theorymon. Please don't.

Feel free to sig this, as this phrase will never appear on Smogon again: I agree with JabbaTheGriffin completely. That was basically the post I was going to make in a few days when robotics resolved, but hey, Jabba already said everything I'm thinking perfectly...

Drapion is also still a beast defensively, and I highly reccomend it for any team that has trouble with Mismagius (I hear a lot of bitching about it). It hasn't let me down in OU _or_ UU.

I'm looking forward to getting some serious UU time in next week with some pure offense, mainly looking at Rhydon and Torterra as a pair. Could make nice redundant sweepers. Claydol can't beat either of them :D
 
Well what I meant was that Claydol, one of the safest switches into Earthquakers, gets hit SE by both of them.
 
Heysup, you say that all defensive oreinted teams have Tomb... what if he is the problem.

Shaymin, is borderline, really useful, but slightly too much bulk paired up with it's speed.

But why Crobat. Crobat made stall really, really, really hard to set up, and we don't want stallers all have to be carrying Ice/Electric/Rock/Psychic moves just to kill the flying bird while it is Taunting. Besides, there are plently of good Taunters out there right now.

@Chris is Me - Megahorn on Rhydon, right? No, I definatel would not feel safe switching in my Claydol with it's weaker defenses (not that weak really) with no recover move (the real bummer). Just make sure they're not choiced :).
 
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