np: UU Stage 1 - Changes

[Patrick1088]

Fletchinder is really a very usable Pokemon in this metagame, especially against the more offensive teams in this metagame. A lot of people use Mega Gallade, Mega Lopunny and Mega Sceptile, and Fletchinder does a great Job at revenge killing them. But it's really good outside of beating the new megas, simply by burning relevant Pokemon, like Empoleon and other things, and making them easier to wear down. It indeed needs some support, but I found it very very effective, often sweeping teams at +2 and more often getting important revenge kills, when the opponent cannot allow you to get to +2.

Fighting Spam= happy Fletch

The meta is so HO atm that having that priority Acrobatics is a huge boon. Unfortunately, some of the biggest issues for Fletch are the other S ranked mons Zygarde and Suicune. They dont care too much for weak acrobatics or even WoW thanks to Sub, Lum Berry, RestTalk.

 

[RyanKoopa]

I don't understand how having this tier centralized completely around 2 pokemon is in any way healthy for the metagame.

 

[KaiseraAeros]

I don't understand how having this tier centralized completely around 2 pokemon is in any way healthy for the metagame.

Say that to GSC Dudes than hue

But in all seriousness I would say its more 3 cause Zygarde's Presence is still As Huge as always

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Say that to GSC Dudes than hue

But in all seriousness I would say its more 3 cause Zygarde's Presence is still As Huge as always

That's kind of implying that GSC was anywhere near healthy lol

IINW its a consensus that if current tiering philosophies were applied to GSC, Snorlax would have been banned.

And yea fuck Galladite, been saying it since day 1 \o/ Stall has nothing to really handle Gallade after Mega Sableye left, the fact that we're resorting to stuff like Spiritomb speaks volumes about the issue (never mind that Spiritomb dies to Lopunny)

 

[Venduria]

That's kind of implying that GSC was anywhere near healthy lol

IINW its a consensus that if current tiering philosophies were applied to GSC, Snorlax would have been banned.

And yea fuck Galladite, been saying it since day 1 \o/ Stall has nothing to really handle Gallade after Mega Sableye left, the fact that we're resorting to stuff like Spiritomb speaks volumes about the issue (never mind that Spiritomb dies to Lopunny)

Granbull has been really pulling through for me as a M-Gallade counter, will pull up calcs in a little bit. M-Gallade is really good, but not impossible to deal with. Hell, Granbull has been a staple on stall for a good bit now too, although nowhere near as efficient as M-Sableye.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

The issue I have with Granbull is that it relies a lot on restalk, which does kind of suck. It's great, but again not on Sableye's level od great.


How does Granbull fare against Bulk Up? Not that I've seen it often since everyone and their mom runs SD, but its an idea.

Granbull has been really pulling through for me as a M-Gallade counter, will pull up calcs in a little bit. M-Gallade is really good, but not impossible to deal with. Hell, Granbull has been a staple on stall for a good bit now too, although nowhere near as efficient as M-Sableye.

 

[Schpoonman]

+1 252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 207-244 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (factoring in Intimidate, calculator is at +2)
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 120-144 (43.3 - 51.9%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO

Meanwhile, I suppose Granbull could paralyze you after eating the +1 Zen Headbutt.

 

[Venduria]

+1 252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 207-244 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (factoring in Intimidate, calculator is at +2)
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 120-144 (43.3 - 51.9%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO

Meanwhile, I suppose Granbull could paralyze you after eating the +1 Zen Headbutt.

Hold up, why is Gallade at +2 Def?

0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 236-282 (84.8 - 101.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I like running Rocky Helmet with Granbull, so for me, that's a guaranteed OHKO with my set. I have no idea if M-Gallade gets Poison Jab, as everyone and their mother runs Knock Off as their filler.

 

[SaberSeven]

Hold up, why is Gallade at +2 Def?

0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 236-282 (84.8 - 101.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I like running Rocky Helmet with Granbull, so for me, that's a guaranteed OHKO with my set. I have no idea if M-Gallade gets Poison Jab, as everyone and their mother runs Knock Off as their filler.

Gallade does get Poison Jab, but Knock Off is always the better filler move

 

[Schpoonman]

Someone asked about the Bulk Up set.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Wouldn't you run some HP on a bulk up set?

 

[Schpoonman]

This was a super quick-and-dirty analysis, before a real Bulk Up set could get calcs I think someone would have to crunch the numbers about what to live at +1, what to outspeed, etc.

 

[KaiseraAeros]

This was a super quick-and-dirty analysis, before a real Bulk Up set could get calcs I think someone would have to crunch the numbers about what to live at +1, what to outspeed, etc.

0/0 Bulk Ladder Survives a Support Bat BB which is a one of the major things you wanna live after a BU TBF

 

[Machi]

So I have been messing around with MLop at UU and OU, more OU lately, and I was starting to be rather frustrated at her tendency to be a liability against fat win conditions that can boost or heal in front of her with impunity, e.g. Sub Zygarde/Suicune/CM Florges/Cresselia/etc. Or even those annoying protect spammers that are aiming to trip you up as you HJK. This was troublesome especially when I no longer had my solid answer available, usually being killed off, and I am left with MLop and few others that would never be able to break through such bulk. Then it dawned on me to create a set tailored to turn what normally would have been the death of your team into liability, especially in last mon standing scenarios. With that I present the punching bag set~

Lopunny (F) @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- High Jump Kick
- Power-Up Punch
- Encore

The set is very simple use encore on either Softboiled/Moonlight/Wish/Protect/CM/Substitute/SD/Rest/Thunder Wave (if in base form)/etc and proceed to boost up using PuP. A good tip is if you are good at reading your opponents move and know they are bound to use a move that won't be an issue towards you use PuP then Encore said move next turn for another free PuP.

From there you have a +1/2 (try not to get too greedy unless you know the opposing team does not have any surprise scarf users or priority aimed to kill you) and punch holes at the opposing team as not much can handle a +1/2 MLop. It is especially hilarious with Sub/CM/Rest users as they get locked in while you safely boost up with PuP turning them into a literal punching bag. I'd try this out if your team is having issues with these bulky boosters. It also works well in OU I love turning Skarmory into a punching bag as I lock him into Roost/Defog and proceed to smack the switch in hard or at times sweep. PuP can very easily snowball which is where the risk of being too greedy can come in.

Best part about this is chances are you'll be spamming Return/Frustration more often than HJK since not much can handle a +1 Return/Frustration for most part, hence less prone to accidents.

 

[Venduria]

So I have been messing around with MLop at UU and OU, more OU lately, and I was starting to be rather frustrated at her tendency to be a liability against fat win conditions that can boost or heal in front of her with impunity, e.g. Sub Zygarde/Suicune/CM Florges/Cresselia/etc. Or even those annoying protect spammers that are aiming to trip you up as you HJK. This was troublesome especially when I no longer had my solid answer available, usually being killed off, and I am left with MLop and few others that would never be able to break through such bulk. Then it dawned on me to create a set tailored to turn what normally would have been the death of your team into liability, especially in last mon standing scenarios. With that I present the punching bag set~

Lopunny (F) @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- High Jump Kick
- Power-Up Punch
- Encore

The set is very simple use encore on either Softboiled/Moonlight/Wish/Protect/CM/Substitute/SD/Rest/Thunder Wave (if in base form)/etc and proceed to boost up using PuP. A good tip is if you are good at reading your opponents move and know they are bound to use a move that won't be an issue towards you use PuP then Encore said move next turn for another free PuP.

From there you have a +1/2 (try not to get too greedy unless you know the opposing team does not have any surprise scarf users or priority aimed to kill you) and punch holes at the opposing team as not much can handle a +1/2 MLop. It is especially hilarious with Sub/CM/Rest users as they get locked in while you safely boost up with PuP turning them into a literal punching bag. I'd try this out if your team is having issues with these bulky boosters. It also works well in OU I love turning Skarmory into a punching bag as I lock him into Roost/Defog and proceed to smack the switch in hard or at times sweep. PuP can very easily snowball which is where the risk of being too greedy can come in.

Best part about this is chances are you'll be spamming Return/Frustration more often than HJK since not much can handle a +1 Return/Frustration for most part, hence less prone to accidents.

Could it be worth running Jump Kick over HJK if you'll be boosting up anyway? I wonder how many relevant OHKOes you'll lose from switching to Jump Kick...

Then again, if you don't get to punch up to +1 or +2, Jump Kick won't be nearly as useful. Still seems interesting enough for me to give it a shot. Great set.

 

[Machi]

Could it be worth running Jump Kick over HJK if you'll be boosting up anyway? I wonder how many relevant OHKOes you'll lose from switching to Jump Kick...

Then again, if you don't get to punch up to +1 or +2, Jump Kick won't be nearly as useful. Still seems interesting enough for me to give it a shot. Great set.

You pretty much pointed out why I don't JK over HJK simply because it forces the set to then become reliant on boosting to net kills. Besides if you are worried about reliability for fighting STAB PuP once boosted does a good number against the fighting weak mons, which is why it can easily snow ball, so~ have fun XD I picked PuP over Sub since I don't like losing 25% of my life each time, as I don't carry a wish passer, that and as I said I wanted to punish boosters and blow holes.

 

[Meru]

Could it be worth running Jump Kick over HJK if you'll be boosting up anyway? I wonder how many relevant OHKOes you'll lose from switching to Jump Kick...

Then again, if you don't get to punch up to +1 or +2, Jump Kick won't be nearly as useful. Still seems interesting enough for me to give it a shot. Great set.

If anything, Drain Punch would be better used as a more reliable STAB, and I know many players have been opting for that over HJK to keep their Lopunny around until the end-game and make it that much more of a nuisance to deal with.

 

[Venduria]

If anything, Drain Punch would be better used as a more reliable STAB, and I know many players have been opting for that over HJK to keep their Lopunny around until the end-game and make it that much more of a nuisance to deal with.

The base power of Drain Punch is what worries me. Yes I can see it work out in terms of longevity, but the lack of power would really suck. Jump Kick at least has a respectable 100 BP, whereas 75 BP from Drain Punch would open it up to not OHKOing bulkier targets. Intriguing enough, though I think M-Lopunny with Healing Wish support doesn't require the Drain Punch regen at all.

 

[Schpoonman]

I've run Lopunny with Healing Wish support and I can confirm that it's just as horrifying as you think it would be.

EDIT: Exhibit A for why Shadow Sneak is a legitimate option on Mega Gallade. Also why you should always always always start with the non-mega variant of a Pokemon in the team-builder if they have multiple abilities. I've made that mistake before, not gonna happen again.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-192349719

Please ignore how weak my team is to Mega Zam, that's something I'm working on.

 

[xMarth]

I can vouch for Drain Punch on SubEncore MLopunny, it really lets it play much more effectively against stall, especially rocky helmet mons. I dont find the power loss from not having HJK to be very noticeable and the extra longevity is extremely useful on balance teams to keep MLopunny around as long as possible.

Also completely agree on Shadow Sneak being viable on MeGallade. Its STABs hit everything except Psychic types and bulky Psychic types are not seen very often. Priority never really hurts and it helps a lot when playing against offensive teams.

 

[Saria]

I sorta touched this subject on irc today, but I'd like to expand it here on forums.

I believe Mega Gallade is bit too much for the UU metagame. I have used both Sword Dance Gallade (the Knock Off version and Shadow Sneak version) and BU Gallade (Alternating between Sub and Taunt) and it consistently does its job (ie: wreck shit).

The Sword Dance hits absurdly hard, that's a pretty well known fact at this point. OHKOes everything at +2 except 3~ Pokemon, etc. Knock Off is better for wallbreaking stuff, but Shadow Sneak has its merits, like helping Gallade not get revenge killed by Mega Kazam or Scarf Chandelure. I could keep talking about this set, but not feeling like repeating what has already been said multiple times already.

The Bulk Up set is currently my favorite set. The most common version is Sub / BU / Drain Punch / Knock Off, it's bulky enough to not get its sub broken by some relatively weak special attacks and protects it from status (0+ Atk Jirachi Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 70-83 (20.5 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO - Fuck Jirachi). I've been trying Drain Punch / Psycho Cut / Bulk Up / Taunt with decent success on the ladder (Currently 26-1 on the ladder, with 1500+~ points thanks to it), this set fits my team better because it actually uses stuff like Hippowdown as setup fodder and stops crap from setting up (since some people refuse to switch out against Gallade). Both version work basically the same way: Use BU and become impossible to OHKO, then stick around forever thanks to Drain Punch.

It seriously is virtually impossible to OHKO:

- 252 Atk Choice Band Crobat Brave Bird vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 320-378 (94.1 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
- 252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 254-300 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 206-246 (60.5 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 214-252 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 214-252 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 184-217 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 187-222 (55 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Some common things that outspeed (Gotta remember that with 110 the number of scarf-less Pokemon that do that aren't that many), the first four probably being the "worst case scenario" for Gallade in the entire UU metagame. As you can see revenge killing it is pretty damn hard and Drain Punch healing it back does not help at all and with Sub / Taunt defensive Pokemon have problems wearing it down. This set might not be able to outright OHKO the entire metagame (it still hits pretty hard with no investment tho, don't sleep on that 165 base attack), but its ability to basically not die as long as you cover the handful of Pokemon that can actually touch it without getting Drain Punch'd, make it a huge threat to every single playstyle.

PS: Inner Focus is useless 99% of the times, but it means Scarf Rachi cannot hax it to death and that Lopunny can't wear it down with Fake Out.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

just to add on that Fletchinder can kill non-BU Mega Gallade with Acrobatics, so it works as a soft check. Still gets bopped by Shadow Sneak though, which is a pain. (also it struggles against Bulk Up versions, which is sad)

SD Gallade fucks over non-Granbull stall atm (not to say that it isn't bad, but I'd prefer running Aromatisse or Florges than Blissey for a cleric tbh, especially with Granbull's reliance on Restalk or Wish, which is kind of annoying tbh on stall), nothing can really take +2 Close Combat/ZHB, and Doublade runs the risk of getting screwed over by Knock Off (Shadow Sneak doesn't even come close to OHKO unless Gallade has CC'd a couple of times already), Gligar is crippled by the same move and iinw dies to Knock Off + ZHB, and many others (cune for example) either has issues living a +2 CC, or are too weak to the point where even hitting twice at +0/-1 def doesn't really cut it. Offensive checks exist (like Mega Aerodactyl) but otherwise not exactly a healthy presence on the metagame (this is not to mention how Bulk Up just laughs at stall forever)

I've personally felt that Galladite was stupid even during the fairy meta, and with the loss of four fairies in Diancie, Altaria, Togekiss and Klefki, as well as a much more solid check in Staraptor, Gallade has done nothing but gotten even more threatening.

 

[Pinkin Lark]

I've run Lopunny with Healing Wish support and I can confirm that it's just as horrifying as you think it would be.

EDIT: Exhibit A for why Shadow Sneak is a legitimate option on Mega Gallade. Also why you should always always always start with the non-mega variant of a Pokemon in the team-builder if they have multiple abilities. I've made that mistake before, not gonna happen again.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-192349719

Please ignore how weak my team is to Mega Zam, that's something I'm working on.

Actually, I learned a little trick concerning the whole multiple abilities and mega variants thing. Simply give the "-mega" version the ability of the original you want. For example: Giving "Absol-Mega" the ability Justified will cause the normal Absol to go out with Justified instead of Pressure. It'll list "Illegal" when you try it, but it seems Teambuilder and Showdown care about slightly different things.

Obviously, it won't recognize an invalid abililty though.

 

[mael]

I've been using Rain Dance on the latter lately, and hell, it's so easy and effective. My Team used Raikou, Noivern, Mega Swampert and Kingdra to utilise the rain. Mega Swampert is surprisingly strong, even without an Item. It's counters are very limited and usually rely on getting some status off. I solved that Problem by using Healing Wish Support, when Swampert gets 2 Opportunities to rampage, it's usually over. The one big Problem I had while using rain was Shedinja, because my rocksetter was Uxie and because my Pokemons don't really have anything to hit it. More defensive teams using Alomomola also were a bit troubling, because it is very hard to wear down, and my team couldn't fit a Ludicolo. I also didn't really know what to use get up rain, because I had a lot of slots to fill, so I used Normal Lopunny with Rain Dance, Encore and Healing Wish, and it's doing much better than I expected it to do. Me using this terribly build rainteam and Swampert + Kindgra still being a threat, makes me worry about properly build Rainteams.

What do you guys use to handle Rain? (Except for Fletchinder of course)

I'm yet to use Bulk Up Gallade, but imagine: Crobat not being able to properly check it anymore, that scares me.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I sorta touched this subject on irc today, but I'd like to expand it here on forums.

I believe Mega Gallade is bit too much for the UU metagame. I have used both Sword Dance Gallade (the Knock Off version and Shadow Sneak version) and BU Gallade (Alternating between Sub and Taunt) and it consistently does its job (ie: wreck shit).

The Sword Dance hits absurdly hard, that's a pretty well known fact at this point. OHKOes everything at +2 except 3~ Pokemon, etc. Knock Off is better for wallbreaking stuff, but Shadow Sneak has its merits, like helping Gallade not get revenge killed by Mega Kazam or Scarf Chandelure. I could keep talking about this set, but not feeling like repeating what has already been said multiple times already.

The Bulk Up set is currently my favorite set. The most common version is Sub / BU / Drain Punch / Knock Off, it's bulky enough to not get its sub broken by some relatively weak special attacks and protects it from status (0+ Atk Jirachi Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 70-83 (20.5 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO - Fuck Jirachi). I've been trying Drain Punch / Psycho Cut / Bulk Up / Taunt with decent success on the ladder (Currently 26-1 on the ladder, with 1500+~ points thanks to it), this set fits my team better because it actually uses stuff like Hippowdown as setup fodder and stops crap from setting up (since some people refuse to switch out against Gallade). Both version work basically the same way: Use BU and become impossible to OHKO, then stick around forever thanks to Drain Punch.

It seriously is virtually impossible to OHKO:

- 252 Atk Choice Band Crobat Brave Bird vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 320-378 (94.1 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
- 252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 254-300 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 206-246 (60.5 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 214-252 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 214-252 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 184-217 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 187-222 (55 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Some common things that outspeed (Gotta remember that with 110 the number of scarf-less Pokemon that do that aren't that many), the first four probably being the "worst case scenario" for Gallade in the entire UU metagame. As you can see revenge killing it is pretty damn hard and Drain Punch healing it back does not help at all and with Sub / Taunt defensive Pokemon have problems wearing it down. This set might not be able to outright OHKO the entire metagame (it still hits pretty hard with no investment tho, don't sleep on that 165 base attack), but its ability to basically not die as long as you cover the handful of Pokemon that can actually touch it without getting Drain Punch'd, make it a huge threat to every single playstyle.

PS: Inner Focus is useless 99% of the times, but it means Scarf Rachi cannot hax it to death and that Lopunny can't wear it down with Fake Out.

To add onto that, volbeatdown and I have been messing around subtox and subwow gallade as a way to beat it's traditional counters and checks (more for the latter). Its a good way to help pokemon with similar checks and counters as metallized.