np: UU Stage 1 - Changes

[GULLY]

I for one don't know why this was chosen to be retested. M-Diancie was one of the more broken things to leave in last big BL shift. We all know what it can do so I don't know why any one is bring up calcs like this thing is easy to deal with. After hazards this thing can 2hko a good majority of the meta with nigh perfect coverage and has further utility with Magic Bounce one of the best abilities in the game. Bronzong, Bullet punch, Scarf Rachi etc is not enough of a answer to this for it be let in the meta. While their role is completely the same I think we can compare this mon to M-Zam. Both being able to break stall HO and some balance Diancie has the benefit of being able to take hits and still hit almost as hard as zam. While it isnt as nearly as fast its ability to boost with rock polish make it faster than Zam and even more of a threat. If we can all agree that this is more threatening than mega zam, then why the fuck is this even a discussion.

 

[Thanks Brock Obama]

So... Mega Diancie is really the first test? I mean, I really like the tiering system that we've got here compared to tiers like OU, where Greninja will probably be banned sometime around March or April, but Mega Diancie seems like a terrible poke to test at the moment. Was there some sort of pressing reason why it had to be the mon we banned like a month ago instead of one of the pokes that have been waiting a while for a retest? I'm not trying to be a dick, but I really want to know why because I'm a little confused about the decision making process here.

Anyway, to actually get a little more on topic I have to say that Mega Diancie is pretty overwhelming, as has been said plenty already it can run RP or CM to overcome either more offensive or more defensive teams. What kills it for me is that there's not too much cost for running one over the other, Calm Mind sets can still be a pain in the ass for offensive teams since Mega Diancie already sits at a great base 110 speed and hits like a train after a boost, while the RP set still packs enough punch so Mega Diancie isn't deadweight against defense. I mean whichever set you're running you can easily tag a spot on your team to take out the mons or playstyles that give your particular Mega Diancie trouble, its not like its hard to throw in a little support for one set or the other.

As for priority which was mentioned in the two posts above Gully's, I think it should be noted that Diancie resists Sucker Punch(which I'm pretty sure is the most common priority in UU unless it changed) and Extreme Speed, while Mach Punch really doesn't deserve much of a mention in UU since its limited to just a few Infernapes, making Lucario and Machamp are pretty much the only two who can hit Mega Diancie with hard hitting priority with Bullet Punch. So I don't think Diancie is that worried about priority seeing as that Infernape does 34 - 40.2% with a 252 Attack Mach Punch, Machamp needs a Choice Band to OHKO with Bullet Punch, and any Lucario without Bullet Punch is pretty much just dying aggressively in Mega Diancie's direction because Extreme Speed doesn't do shit. I'd say Mega Diancie is pretty safe from UU's priority.

Also I think this might be my 100th post. Dope.

 

[Notorious544d]

Alright, there are a couple of things wrong with this.

1. Priority is fairly prevalent. There are e speeds and mach punches everywhere.
2. The types of sets determine how it prevails against other play style. Rp sets aren't very good against stall, while cm has a hard time against fast teams. Double dance sets are hard to use thanks to its poor bulk. My stance is still undefined though, it could be potentially not broken or broken, I'm going to wait and see. Sorry if this post came off as harsh, that was not my intention

Diancie is neutral to Mach punch and resists ESpeed. Aqua Jet is the only SE priority and I cant think of any viable UU Pokemon that learn it.

 

[Thanks Brock Obama]

They've already looked into them first hand with the council battles system, which I don't see the thread anymore because King UU is so broken he affects even the forums. Which may be why they aren't a priority, if at all, since they were already found to be rather dominating in UU, but does not compare to King UU of course.

Even still, I'm wondering why we didn't go back and start the retest list over again, the meta has changed a lot more since Weavile or Mega Medicham have been banned than since Mega Diancie was banned. I get that it got put at the bottom of the list and is therefore the next test(just assuming the reasoning there), but couldn't we just skip it and the rest of the recent bans anyway because this is essentially the same meta they got banned from?

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Diancie is neutral to Mach punch and resists ESpeed. Aqua Jet is the only SE priority and I cant think of any viable UU Pokemon that learn it.

sharpedo learns aqua jet but it obviously cant switch in (and you probably dont need aqua jet after a turn anyway)

there's also blastoise and empoleon but aqua jet is highly niche on them (or in better words, shit)

 

[Schpoonman]

Feraligatr learns Aqua Jet and is slightly more relevant than AJ Blastoise and Empoleon.

Oh, duh. Medicham. Medicham just fell back to UU, kids.

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 200-236 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 151-179 (62.6 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Obviously, Feraligatr will need a significant amount of prior damage, or to have already set up to +2 (or +1 and simply bop with Waterfall), while Medicham can either KO with Bullet Punch or leave Diancie beat up enough for something else to finish off.

 

[Venduria]

Diancie is neutral to Mach punch and resists ESpeed. Aqua Jet is the only SE priority and I cant think of any viable UU Pokemon that learn it.

Is Bullet Punch really forgotten here? Lucario can't switch in on Earth Power, but BP is still fantastic. Machamp can technically use it, but Heavy Slam is probably more viable regardless. Kabutops can also use Aqua Jet quite well, but needs the SD boost if it wants to do anything more than revenge.

EDIT: I know TBO basically said what I wanted earlier, but I want to reiterate that BP should be more common anyway now with M-Aero being this strong (at least in regards the Lucario). Besides, M-Diancie is completely stopped by Zong, just like before.

 

[Schpoonman]

Just to chime in on Heavy Slam:

252+ Atk Machamp Heavy Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 444-524 (184.2 - 217.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 278-330 (76.3 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not only does Machamp have to be wearing an Assault Vest, but it has to be VERY healthy in order to eat a Moonblast.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Even still, I'm wondering why we didn't go back and start the retest list over again, the meta has changed a lot more since Weavile or Mega Medicham have been banned than since Mega Diancie was banned. I get that it got put at the bottom of the list and is therefore the next test(just assuming the reasoning there), but couldn't we just skip it and the rest of the recent bans anyway because this is essentially the same meta they got banned from?

On one hand you could say testing pokemon that was just banned in a similar environment is dumb because we will quickly see it's broken but on the other hand you can say it's smart because it takes very little time to complete the test.

Of course we should be fair regardless and not immediately assume that pokemon is broken. But the whole process should be quicker.

 

[Chronobreak]

Diancie is neutral to Mach punch and resists ESpeed. Aqua Jet is the only SE priority and I cant think of any viable UU Pokemon that learn it.

I never said priority was strong against diancie, just said it wasn't rare. Plus, there are many faster mons that kill diancie effectively

 

[Hogg]

MegaDance's issues aren't with priority as much as they are with mediocre bulk. 50/110/110 really actually isn't that great, especially when most can't afford defensive investment. I don't find her overwhelming for offensive teams because she has lots of solid offensive checks, and most threats that she can't OHKO can hit her back hard. Stall can usually deal with her as well, although the CM set can usually do some excellent damage to a stall core in the process - Blissey will generally get in two Seismic Tosses before going down, and with no recovery, that means just about anything will KO.

Just looking at the viability rankings, S and A ranks...

• CROBAT: OK, yeah, Diancie pretty much craps on standard Crobat sets.
• JIRACHI: Scarfrachi outspeeds, Iron Head always OHKOs, and even 0/0 Jirachi takes at most 79% from Earth Power.
• SUICUNE: 0 investment Scald 2HKOs with plenty to spare, while Moonblast is only a 3HKO.
• MEGA-AERO: Outspeeds and pretty much always has a move to OHKO. Aqua Tail and Iron Head are guaranteed OHKOs, EQ OHKOs after rocks, and even Stone Edge deals ~70%. It can't take a Diamond Storm and has to watch out for Rock Polish, but that's why it's a check, not a counter.
• CELEBI: Giga Drain 2HKOs, and Celebi laughs at most of Diancie's attacks.
• ENTEI: Diancie doesn't like switching in, as even Sacred Fire 2HKOs, but unless it catches a burn Diancie will outspeed and OHKO with Diamond Storm.
• HYDREIGON: Another threat that Diancie mostly craps all over, although Scarf versions can use Iron Tail or Flash Cannon to easily OHKO.
• MACHAMP: AV Champ can survive a Moonblast even after rocks to OHKO with Heavy Slam, or use Bullet Punch to deal 74.8-87.9%. CB Champ can't switch in for fear of Moonblast, but OHKOs with Bullet Punch.
• MIENSHAO: Moonblast OHKOs, but Scarfshao stands a pretty good chance of OHKOing with HJK.
• SWAMPERT: Moonblast is a 2HKO against physically defensive Pert, but uninvested Scald is a guaranteed 2HKO and EQ stands a decent chance of OHKOing. With a mixed defensive spread Swampert can even avoid the 2HKO from Moonblast.
• MEGA-ABSOL: Mostly countered by Diancie unless it packs Iron Tail or it gets to +2 (at which point Play Rough has a good chance of OHKOing after rocks).
• MEGA-AGGRON: Earth Power is a 2HKO, so it doesn't want to switch in except on a predicted Moonblast or Diamond Storm, but Heavy Slam OHKOs several times over.
• ALAKAZAM: Outspeeds, carries a Sash, and basically all of its moves 2HKO.
• MEGA-BEEDRILL: If Diancie's at full health, Bee is screwed, but it can knock off 35% with U-turn as it pivots out to a resist, or deal 75-88% with PJab.
• MEGA-BLASTOISE: Scald OHKOs, and Diancie only has a 30% chance to 2HKO.
• EMPOLEON: Scald does 70%, while the most Diancie can hope for is a 3HKO against the more common specially defensive variants. Or, Empoleon can carry Flash Cannon for an easy OHKO.
• KROOKODILE: Outsped and OHKO'd by Moonblast, although the Scarf version will OHKO with EQ.
• NIDOQUEEN: Earth Power OHKOs, while Diancie's own Earth Power maxes at 87.8%.
• MEGA-PIDGEOT: Mostly screwed. Diancie's pretty good against burds of all stripes.
• SHAYMIN: Seed Flare is an easy OHKO, although uninvested Shaymin can get 2HKO'd by Moonblast, so it has to be careful switching in.
• TENTACRUEL: Bold versions are outsped and 2HKO'd by Earth Power, although Scald hits weakened Diancie hard, and Tentacruel can avoid the 2HKO with some specially defensive investment.
• VAPOREON: Diancie 3HKOs at best, and Scald deals 77-90.4%.
• YANMEGA: It can hit Diancie hard, but it can't OHKO, and Diancie outspeeds Specs Yanmega and has an easy OHKO in return.
• MEGA-AMPHAROS: Yeah, this one is pretty much screwed also.
• AZELF: Outspeeds and 2HKOs with Zen Headbutt, although the suicidal rocks version has some serious trouble.
• CHANDELURE: Scarf Chandy deals 81-96% with Energy Ball, although it gets OHKO'd by Diamond Storm.
• CRESSELIA: Cresselia will save us all.
• DONPHAN: Why are people using Donphan? Anyhow, the AV version is only 2HKO'd by Moonblast, and OHKOs with EQ.
• FLORGES: Diamond Storm is a 3HKO against 252/232 Florges, which is I think the standard spread, so Florges can easily stall it out with Wish or Synthesis and has an easy 3HKO in return even uninvested.
• GLIGAR: Specially defensive Gligar is 3HKO'd at best by any of Diancie's moves, can recover with Roost, and 2HKOs with EQ.
• INFERNAPE: Outsped and OHKO'd.
• LUCARIO: Bullet Punch OHKOs without a boost. You should be running Bullet Punch anyhow for Aerodactyl.
• NIDOKING: Nidoqueen is better. Use Nidoqueen, please.
• RAIKOU: Outspeeds, is not OHKO'd by any of Diancie's moves (Earth Power does at most 84% to Specs Raikou and doesn't even have a guaranteed 2HKO against the AV version), and easily 2HKOs or can take off a chunk and pivot out to something with Volt Switch (and Specs Volt Switch is a 2HKO all on its own).
• ROSERADE: Survives anything that Diancie throws at it and OHKOs with Giga Drain, regaining its health in the process.
• MEGA-SCEPTILE: Outspeeds and OHKOs.
• MEGA-SHARPEDO: Outspeeds after a boost and OHKOs.
• STARMIE: The offensive version outspeeds and OHKOs. The defensive version outspeeds and 2HKOs, and none of Diancie's moves OHKO.
• MEGA-SWAMPERT: See Swampert above, except the mega version has a guaranteed OHKO and outspeeds if under rain.
• UMBREON: Diancie laughs at puny Umbreon.

So yeah, not a lot of straight up counters, but a huge number of offensive checks, and basically every playstyle has something that can easily fit on their team and answer Diancie. I'm not saying it's not overwhelming, but I think people are freaking out on principle. Mega-Diancie is really good, and can punch holes in most teams. It's certainly a concern when teambuilding. And I know that just because counters or checks exist doesn't mean a pokemon isn't broken. But I think people are really overrating just how unstoppable Diancie is. Yes, under ideal circumstances it can beat many of the above pokemon... but under ideal circumstances, many of the above pokemon beat it, too.

Personally I like having it in the tier, but I can understand if it's too much - I consider it about as good as MegaZam, which I also wanted to stay in, but which the UU Council decided was too much (and had some very good reasons to think so). But I do hope people actually play around with it and think critically before shouting for a ban just because it happens to be pretty good.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I've been messing around with Mega-Diancie again, and I can say Dual Screens Hyper Offense makes her very hard to stop on both sides. It was pretty much unstoppable pre-ORAS (when I used Klefki as a Screen setter) and is currently still hard to stop in this phase of UU (where I use Azelf as a Screen setter). I'm able to get to +2 SpAtt, +2 SpDef, and +2 Spe pretty much without much hassle.

Although I do agree with the sentiments above, Mega-Diancie as a Double Dancer on Dual Screens HO may be a potential problem.

 

[Ernesto]

Not gonna lie, Screens Azelf + Mega Diancie looks dumb af lol. Diancie isn't only virtually unphazable (outside of based AV Circle Throw Throh! Edit: and Mold Breaker Roar! Don't forget Mold Breaker Roar), it also protects the screens from Defog, meaning that you can only hope to weaken it to the point where priority can pick it off (or stall out the Screens, obviously). I dunno what the best spread could be, since Diancie doesn't need much Speed investment to outspeed the fastest Scarfers so you can invest a ton in bulk, but pairing those two with just Scarf HW Rachi (the innovation is strong) might be gg most of the time.

This is just theorymon tho, so I'd love to see some replays.

 

[Hogg]

I forgot all about Defog not clearing screens when bounced. Might not make a huge difference, since Diancie matches up well against most Defoggers anyhow (unless Flash Cannon Empoleon becomes popular), but that's still neat.

 

[Machi]

I forgot all about Defog not clearing screens when bounced. Might not make a huge difference, since Diancie matches up well against most Defoggers anyhow (unless Flash Cannon Empoleon becomes popular), but that's still neat.

Well if he can't roar in the first place may as well run Flash Cannon then XD.

• CRESSELIA: Cresselia will save us all

Well if you follow OU a bit Cresselia is actually a very potent counter with the simple addition of skill swap, which is fairly common higher up the OU ladder to also deal with Mega Sable. Definitely can do more than just tank hits as she is capable of causing status against MDiancie. Can be a wrench against Double dance sets to have their MDiancie crippled or forced out, if they know what Cress can do.

 

[Zartres10]

I've been playing around with Mega Diancie, and I agree with what Hogg said regarding Diancie's matchups. All the same, it's not hard to see it having a secure spot as an S rank mon due to how strong it is. A recent sweep:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-200507779

 

[HT]

So Contrary Serperior came out today, gonna be interesting to see how it plays out in the tier. Gonna be another valuable asset vs. Stall, being able to attack and increase its attack all in one turn. Has great coverage as well between Leaf Storm, HP Fire, and Dragon Pulse and base 113 speed is not bad by any means, outspeeding non Scarf Ape and Espeon. It also gives us another Cune check which is pretty mandatory on any team. I can see it struggling a bit against faster oriented teams tho with mons like Crobat and Beedrill, but I think it should be able to hold its own here.

 

[Eyan]

So I've tested Serperior a little with Hairy Toenail, and it takes quite a bit of support. The main problem I've noticed is how underwhelming it is without its boosts. If the opponent has something like a Crobat (which is pretty common right now), you have to get rid of it at all costs or Serperior can't anything the whole game. Its bulk and typing also isn't good enough to switch into much bar bulky waters. If you manage to remove / weaken its threats, then it can be a pretty good late game cleaner, but then again that can be said for a lot of stuff.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

been testing out serp a bit, he feels a bit underwhelming atm considering scarfrachi is like on every other team and then there's crobat and aerodactyl who can check it pretty easily. having a nice check to mega diancie is definitely cool though ;]

edit: scarfrachi is cancer lol

 

[DiscoDucky]

I've just actually built a team that utilizes Serperior not as a sweeper, but as an offensive Utility Pokemon. It sounds promising on paper, so I'll let you all know how it works out. :)

 

[Saria]

People shoud start using Glare Serperior. Scarf Chandelure, Crobat, Scarf Rachi, Scarf Darmanitan, etc get crippled and makes them more manageable, for itself and its team. There's also Knock Off Serperior to cripple Scarfers and other stuff that rely on their item.

My personal favorite is Sub Seed Serperior, it eats slowish teams alive without issues.

PS: Defogging a Serperior gives it a evasion boost. Not really important in UU, but it's fun as fuck in RU.

 

[Hogg]

Glare makes the most sense to me as Serp's fourth move in an offensive set - Giga Drain for some minor recovery would also work, but I think it has less utility overall.

Sub seed sounds pretty cool as well. I wasn't super excited by this after looking at some calcs, but thinking about more utility focused sets is making me more interested.

 

[DiscoDucky]

People shoud start using Glare Serperior. Scarf Chandelure, Crobat, Scarf Rachi, Scarf Darmanitan, etc get crippled and makes them more manageable, for itself and its team. There's also Knock Off Serperior to cripple Scarfers and other stuff that rely on their item.

My personal favorite is Sub Seed Serperior, it eats slowish teams alive without issues.

PS: Defogging a Serperior gives it a evasion boost. Not really important in UU, but it's fun as fuck in RU.

To add to that, I've been using double status Serperior (Glare/Toxic). Glare does what Hikari mentions and toxic just fucks with shit like Sap Sipper Goodra or Florges.

 

[Thanks Brock Obama]

Contrary to belief (Serperior) @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Glare
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Hidden Power [Fire]​

Alright, here's the Serperior set that I've been using that I think is pretty good. EVs are standard 252/252/4 to make the most of his speed tier and hitting power. Leaf Storm is around for obvious reasons and lets Serp go about his typical bullying anything with a grass weakness. Glare is next most important move on this set imo, allowing Serp to punish common switchins like Crobat, Scarfachi, Mega Sceptile, and Hydreigon who think they're going to do a great job coming in and eating up your Leaf Storm and hitting back hard, I have to say that this is hands down the best support move that Serp has. Dragon Pulse is just one of Serp's better special attacking moves and is great for hitting dragons like Hydrei and Haxorus. The hidden power is honestly up to you, personally I prefer HP ground because it lets you hit Fire types and Poison types for super effective damage, while HP fire is good for hitting Forry and other grass types. Life Orb just seems like the best option to me since otherwise your non-stab moves aren't hitting all too hard.

EDIT: Hikari and the others all sniping me to the glare hype

 

[pokemonisfun]

Serperior+Agility Nasty Plot PZ+Sticky Web Galvantula is pretty good especially if you add in your own scarfer with u-turn right now in my opinion. I like Giga drain over Glare for a more accurate hit than Leaf Storm as well as the recovery. Glare I bet is good too though. I think HP Fire has to be the best HP because it gets steel types+grass types+bug types.