np: UU Stage 1 - Changes

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Punchshroom

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To add on to the stuff about Klefki a bit late to the party, I think it's also worth mentioning (for Screens HO at least) that it gets access to Magic Coat now, which means Defoggers can't come in and break its Screens—since, as I recently found out, Defog only clears target's screens, so Magic Coat actually prevents that. Hazards still get cleared tho, so if they have a Defogger on the wings, try not to waste time setting up Spikes unless it's really needed .–.
So what exactly is stopping these Defoggers from simply spamming the move and removing Screens when Klefki inevitably switches out? I will say that Magic Coat is excellent at stopping Taunt though. Non-Dual Screen Klefi can use priority Magnet Rise to soft-check things like Zygarde, Mega Aero, DD Mega Altaria, Haxorus, Moxie Krookodile, non-Fire Blast Nidos, Kyurem, Flygon, Snorlax, Hippowdon, as well as evade Dugtrio, then proceed to either use them as Spikes fodder or retaliate with Thunder Wave / Fairy STAB.
 
What's stopping Klefki to stay in and spam Magic Coat as well? They have the same PP, so whoever gets tired first loses (yea, you can say that the Defogger can choose not to Defog, but that ultimately works both ways since Screens still have more PP) o.O Also I just said that so that nobody comes in and says "nothing's stopping the Defogger from coming in on Klefki", which at the end of the day isn't really true. Obviously avoiding Taunt is useful too, especially considering that unlike Magic Coat Beagle, Klefki has actual resistances to not get bonked mispredicting the Taunt.
 

Punchshroom

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What's stopping Klefki to stay in and spam Magic Coat as well? They have the same PP, so whoever gets tired first loses (yea, you can say that the Defogger can choose not to Defog, but that ultimately works both ways since Screens still have more PP) o.O Also I just said that so that nobody comes in and says "nothing's stopping the Defogger from coming in on Klefki", which at the end of the day isn't really true. Obviously avoiding Taunt is useful too, especially considering that unlike Magic Coat Beagle, Klefki has actual resistances to not get bonked mispredicting the Taunt.
The most common Defoggers in the tier are Crobat, Gligar, and Empoleon; while Klefki scoffs completely at the former, Klefki really cannot afford to screw up against the latter two. If Klefki wins the prediction, whoopty doo it stopped Defog for that particular turn only. If the Defogger wins the prediction, Klefki's Screen(s) are gone and its efforts wasted, or even worse, it simply gets crippled by a powerful attack for basically no reason (bar burning a Screen turn :/) and it still has to predict if it wants to keep its Screens. The Defogger has practically nothing to lose by spamming Defog against Klefki (don't forget the Screens are on a timer!), so yeah, there is still relatively "nothing stopping the Defogger from coming in on Klefki"...provided it is the correct Defogger :P

Edi: The only instance Klefki can more safely keep its Screens against the Defoggers would be Magic Bounce Absol, but my point still stands that Klefki itself doesn't have much ways of stopping Defog; it merely delays Defog, and can wear out Screen turns even if it does win the prediction war.
 
In a defog vs magic coat fight, the defogger will win because you will remove the screens due to the 8 turn expiration. That's what ppl seem to be complaining about, so yeah. They stall out turns, and no one sets up. Defoggers are just to remove screens, and in a way, by stalling, they accomplish that.
 
In a defog vs magic coat fight, the defogger will win because you will remove the screens due to the 8 turn expiration. That's what ppl seem to be complaining about, so yeah. They stall out turns, and no one sets up. Defoggers are just to remove screens, and in a way, by stalling, they accomplish that.
Who the hell is going to stall out screens. They'd honestly just switch h out to a sweeper and set up on your ass
 
If the screens get stalled out they can just set them up again? As long as the screens are up, it won't matter if the Klefki is dead or not. Since they can use the following turn to set up and sweep while you choose to wait another turn to Defog or go to a counter like you could've done in the first place. I dunno why you guys seem convinced that the screens won't be up in that scenario—especially if, like Punchshroom said, they spam Defog, it's only 24 PP anyway. No one's gonna waste those turns in reality, but the point was that Klefki would still get the job done if both players were stubborn and tried to stay in and play that game.
4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki through Light Screen: 53-63 (16.6 - 19.8%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
0 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki through Reflect: 66-78 (20.7 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

I'm not sure that's the best spread for Light Clay Klefki (it's the standard for OU at least), but they aren't beating it anytime soon if they decide to attack instead of Defogging (obviously burn is a thing, but yea).


Like I said, at the end of the day it doesn't matter, but the Defogger isn't clearly winning that like you seem to be implying because Klefki /can/ attempt to beat it. So not even leading your Defogger would give you an actual upper hand against Screens Offense.
 

Meru

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Who the hell is going to stall out screens. They'd honestly just switch h out to a sweeper and set up on your ass
Klefki has all of the tools to prevent setting up though. Foul Play will punish anything trying to set up SD while Play Rough still has that anti-offensive Fairy-typing to bop Dark-, Fighting-, and Dragon-types. And that's not all, as even Thunder Wave can neuter 90% of offensive threats. On top of that, you still are behind a turn if you set up due to screens cancelling out your set-up unless your 'mon has Infiltrator or you crit. Obviously it can't run all of these moves at once but it has such astounding versatility and you usually can't afford to predict which moves its running unless you want to lose your win condition.
 
Wait are we arguing the same position? I was trying to say that UU ALL DAY's point about stalling out screens with Defog is bad since Klefki can fuck them all over with it's Support pool (Torment is a personal favorite of mine) and the fact that klefki can switch out into a setup sweeper and have said setup sweeper set up on the defogger.
 
Alright, addressing Klefki for a moment I'll start by saying I absolutely love this mon, something about how simple and ridiculous Kelfki's design is reminds me of my first pokemon game back during Gen2, and as a serious sucker for nostalgia it pains me to say that I don't think Klefki should be allowed to stay.

I have absolutely no idea how Klefki is good for the tier, its a lazy catch all answer to setup sweepers and a fantastic prankster boosted support mon that can do its job with no support in every single game, and I've yet to see a convincing argument otherwise. Take for example the argument brought up before that Klefki is good for the tier since we have so many new setup sweepers, I'd say that it has the opposite effect. Klefki centers the tier around these setup sweepers because of how insanely good it is at supporting them and stopping your opponent's setup sweepers. While I'm fine with a more offensive metagame(if anything I'm all for it), Klefki is a 100% effective and easy to use support mon that caters directly to offense, and can be put on a team at essentially zero opportunity cost. If nothing in that sentence indicates to you that this mon is way too damn good at what it does then I don't know what else else to say.

Like were Defoggers honestly brought up as a solution to Klefki's ability to support? Do you think a mon like Crobat enjoys being t-waved? Does Empoleon want to risk losing turns to parahax? Can every team make room Gligar and his terrible ice weakness to stop Klefki from setting up screens? What about teams that run Rapid Spin instead, are they supposed to let the glory of pokes like DD Salamence behind screens wash over them? Am I supposed to also carry Klefki to stop pokes like DD Salamence? Klefki does its job way too well, and the fact that we just wasted time calling Defog even a partial solution to the issue seriously exposes that there are no real ways to consistently stop it from doing what it needs to.

Klefki is stupid good at its job, and I really can't see why we'd let it stay. I think that Klefki is getting a pass from certain players just because it isn't a win condition, which is ridiculous.
 
The most common Defoggers in the tier are Crobat, Gligar, and Empoleon.
You can add MAero and Mence to the fray of defoggers, I've been seeing a lot more defensive defog Mence than offensive variants. While Gligar and Empoleon are obviously going to win, EQ/Scald burn, Klefki does have an inherent advantage over offensive defoggers primarily because none of them want a TW to cripple them, so they'd likely wait for Klefki to leave whereas Gligar/Empoleon can afford to stay in and face him head on. That said neither Gligar or Empoleon are as easy to fit, especially Empoleon who competes with Jirachi for that steel spot.
 
Alright, so Volc, Klef, Togekiss are pretty much guaranteed to be out of the tier since everyone thinks they are broken.

What are the thoughts on Mega Altaria?
 
Mega Altaria terrorizes Stall and Balance, but Offense tends to either A) not give it any set-up opportunities or B) revenge it fairly easily after it's set up, since 75/110/105 defenses aren't THAT bulky and it's sitting at only base 80 Speed. I play offense fairly exclusively (we don't talk about that time I used a BW1 rain stall team), and it's never been that big of an issue for me. Nidoqueen especially handles it well. It has to set up in order to OHKO more offensive Nidoqueen spreads, all while Sludge Wave OHKOs after Mega evolving and Ice Beam always OHKOs if regular Altaria switches in on Rocks.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 489-577 (168 - 198.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 385-455 (132.3 - 156.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 244-289 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 240-284 (67.9 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mind, you can also go for max physical bulk and live a +1 Mega Altaria Earthquake and retaliate with Sludge Wave. So maybe Balance also has a shot.

8 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 265-315 (91 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Nidoqueen: 252-298 (65.7 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Aggron also stops Altaria cold, but I've only ever used it once on a fairly unsuccessful team.

EDIT: Of course, as soon as I post, I remember Dugtrio. Unfortunately for Nidoqueen, CB Dugtrio DOES handle it very well. Unfortunately for Dugtrio, Mega Aggron is barely 3HKO'd without max Defense investment, whereas you have a 30% chance to 3HKO WITH max investment. Choice Specs Magneton can KO with Thunderbolt with a little prior damage, but now you've devoted two slots to taking care of Altaria's two most prominent counters.

Neither of them have reliable recovery, but I just don't feel like Mega Altaria is that good. I think it got a little overhyped like Mega Absol. Even with Pixilate, 110 offenses doesn't seem to scream "top-tier threat" to me.

Keep in mind this is all taking Altaria as an offensive threat. I haven't seen it used defensively yet, so I don't know what to make of it, but that typing is pretty sweet.
 
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Mega Altaria terrorizes Stall and Balance, but Offense tends to either A) not give it any set-up opportunities or B) revenge it fairly easily after it's set up, since 75/110/105 defenses aren't THAT bulky and it's sitting at only base 80 Speed. I play offense fairly exclusively (we don't talk about that time I used a BW1 rain stall team), and it's never been that big of an issue for me. Nidoqueen especially handles it well. It has to set up in order to OHKO more offensive Nidoqueen spreads, all while Sludge Wave OHKOs after Mega evolving and Ice Beam always OHKOs if regular Altaria switches in on Rocks.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 489-577 (168 - 198.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 385-455 (132.3 - 156.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 244-289 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 240-284 (67.9 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mind, you can also go for max physical bulk and live a +1 Mega Altaria Earthquake and retaliate with Sludge Wave. So maybe Balance also has a shot.

8 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 265-315 (91 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Nidoqueen: 252-298 (65.7 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Aggron also stops Altaria cold, but I've only ever used it once on a fairly unsuccessful team.

EDIT: Of course, as soon as I post, I remember Dugtrio. Unfortunately for Nidoqueen, CB Dugtrio DOES handle it very well. Unfortunately for Dugtrio, Mega Aggron is barely 3HKO'd without max Defense investment, whereas you have a 30% chance to 3HKO WITH max investment. Choice Specs Magneton can KO with Thunderbolt with a little prior damage, but now you've devoted two slots to taking care of Altaria's two most prominent counters.

Neither of them have reliable recovery, but I just don't feel like Mega Altaria is that good. I think it got a little overhyped like Mega Absol. Even with Pixilate, 110 offenses doesn't seem to scream "top-tier threat" to me.

Keep in mind this is all taking Altaria as an offensive threat. I haven't seen it used defensively yet, so I don't know what to make of it, but that typing is pretty sweet.
Just use it with Dual Screens Klefki

In all seriousness, Altaria with the two trappers are a very good core.

I'm going to make a pretty bold (and mostly incorrect statement), but I think that Mega-Altaria is somewhat analogous to Kingdra in Gen V. Outside of missing Swift Swim, Kingdra and Altaria are pretty similar because:
  1. They both have pretty good coverage (Dragon + Water and Fairy + Ground).
  2. Very good attackers from either side of the spectrum.
  3. Only a handful of counters after one or two boosts.
Correct me if I'm wrong, because I probably am.

Also, since it's been a good week or so, does the council have some semi-organized list of what's potentially banned and what's potentially staying UU.
 

YABO

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Altarias typing is the real issue tbh. It allows it to really capitalize on free turns since its solid bulk lets it eat up resisted and neutral hits. It sets up on things like cb krook, hydreigon, salamence, etc. To me, it seems like its too easy to identify altaria as a win condition every game as its counters are so few and are pressured by teammates such as krookodile (the most hyped partner for Malt).
 
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Beedrill is pretty fun. Been using an HO bee squad that my boy name passed me. I think it's definitely a viable option in the tier that keeps fairy types at bay. Of course every single game i play aggron so i'm made to just u-turn spam but still with hazards and volt switchers i.e. Raikou, this mon is pretty nichze (nice). I actually love having to run protect on it when i've identified choiced users. Cool mon overall. I don't think it'll be dominant and it is easily worn down by hazards + stopped by scarf rachi, bird, keys etc etc but definitely a nice addition to the tier
 
Honestly Klefki is an issue, but I think it's just exacerbating the problem of a sudden burst of (likely broken) setup sweepers in the tier. I don't think it's broken on its own terms and once the tier has settled and the other broken shit has left it'll probably be ok. Still, it needs to be banned for now.
 

Nas

Banned deucer.
So for anyone who doesn't know, these are the tier changes that will affect what you can and can't use in UU:

Sableye moved from UU to OU
Salamence moved from UU to OU
Metagross moved from UU to OU
Mawile moved from OU to UU

Unfortunately, even though Salamencite was just banned we're still going to lose it until it most likely drops again in January. (Next tier shift) Other than that, what do you guys think of these changes?
 

Hogg

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Hmm... Mega-Sableye was annoying but not as worrying as Altaria or Diancie for me. The strong physical Fire types in UU did a pretty good job of keeping him in check.

Losing Metagross is a shame. It was one of my favorite offensive SR setters.

Mawile might have been interesting if we didn't have Klefki to play with. Fairy/Steel is an amazing typing and Intimidate is always nice. With Intimidate factored in its physical bulk actually isn't too shabby, so it could serve as a defensive pivot or something? Hell, I dunno. It has a cool design, typing and movepool that makes me want it to work, but those stats really do suck.

How will Spikes-stacking teams deal with Sableye's disappearance? I guess I'll never get to test out my Klefki/Sableye hazard control team....
 
Been getting back into UU again and I've been having a lot of fun with mega lopunny, haven't found much that can switch into it, especially with spikes support from Klefki. Klefki is pretty unhealthy for the meta imo, free spikes, can play super recklessly because of prankster twave/toxic, and just an overall pain in the ass.
 
Damn, losing Sableye is a shame, both its regular form and Mega form. Other ghost types like Jellicent might rise in viability as bulky spinblockers, but they won't be the same. What do you guys think will rise in viability now that this greedy goblin is gone?

Praise Mawile
 

Nas

Banned deucer.
The ability to use Stealth Rock is currently Mawile's only selling point over Klefki, and it isn't much. I think the most notable shift was Sableye leaving, as it was a huge thorn in the side of many physical attackers. I might even start spamming Reckless CB Mienshao now that the only Ghost you have to worry about is Chandelure. (lol)
 
Just decided to check out Mawile and Granbull's stats real quick and I have a few quick comparisons since Granbull is the closest thing we have to Mawile if Klefki leaves:

Mawile has arguably better typing, a steel typing tends to help most mons, but I'm not quite sure in this case because pure fairy is pretty damn good.
Mawile has an extra 10 base defense, but a 40 point base HP loss so that's worthless.
Mawile doesn't get Heal Bell, unlike Granbull who does.
Mawile has Stealth Rocks, while Granbull doesn't.
Granbull has a significantly higher attack stat, meaning he can actually hurt your opponent if it comes down to it.

Yeah not really feeling Mawile, I mean I guess Mawile can be used as a bulky steel type SR setter, maybe with a RestTalk set it could extend its lifespan a little bit. At the end of the day though I think its safe to say that Mawile is gonna be pretty crappy, which kinda sucks because I carried one of these to the league back in Ruby Version and I really love this mon. In hindsight I have no idea how I made this thing a champ.
 

Hogg

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I mentioned earlier that Doublade is a nice answer to physical Altaria and Staraptor. With Sableye gone, it could pick up usage as a decent spinblocker as well.
 
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