np: UU Stage 6 - No Surprises

[DetroitLolcat]

I am not exxagerating anything. I am not claiming that SV Gligar is broken inside sand, just uncompetitve.

Also in my second point i meant that RD is not used enough and is not viable enough to pose a serious threats against the SV abusers.

Finally Gligar's Atk stat is not pathetic, it is mediocre, and it is enough to beat almost anything that it cannot Toxic-stall (Crobat, Xatu and Bronzong are the only things that cannot be beaten by EQ + Toxic stall).

There is one common Sand Veil abuser, two viable ones, and three total abusers. The Rain Dance Pokemon have an absolute field day with the Sand Veil Pokemon. Rain Dance is completely viable in UU, though it's not perfect. And if you don't want to use Rain Dance as a playstyle, what's stopping you from sticking Sunny Day on your Registeel to cancel out Sand once Hippo's dead? One move on one Pokemon is no problem.

 

[Ace Emerald]

I am not exxagerating anything. I am not claiming that SV Gligar is broken inside sand, just uncompetitve.

Also in my second point i meant that RD is not used enough and is not viable enough to pose a serious threats against the SV abusers.

Finally Gligar's Atk stat is not pathetic, it is mediocre, and it is enough to beat almost anything that it cannot Toxic-stall (Crobat, Xatu and Bronzong are the only things that cannot be beaten by EQ + Toxic stall).

Low usage does not mean it isn't viable. If it works and you use it, you're covered.

I'll admit, I underplayed Gligar's EQ in retrospect. But I'd argue that any flier or levitator that carries substitute, as well as Escavilier, to an extent Roserade, and even less traditional options such as Amoonguss could be added to that list. And those are just the pokemon that completely block Gligar, more offense pokemon that resist EQ and can take a toxic for the team (Ludicolo, specs Yanmega 2hkos with air slash and honestly toxic doesn't matter much because if SR is up, its screwed anyways, Glavantula with HP ice, special Mew can reflect status with Synchronize, pretty much any special attacker that can take an EQ and has Hp ice) can finish of Gligar even with a few misses. If you really want, you can throw a cleric on your team to full counter Toxic. I've had success with Umbreon, Roserade, and even Gardivour removing status reliably on some on my balance teams, and I've taken on Gligar with my Slowbro (on a tangent, Slowbro is god with regenerator and a good cleric). Again, to summarize my point Gligar has plenty of full fledged counters even with SV, and many checks as well. SV may or may not be uncompetitive, but it certainly isn't too much to handle.

 

[casey90]

To your point about gligar alexwolf, that doesn't prove it's uncompetitive. That's like saying the only pokemon you had on your team that could kill Rest-Talk milotic lost because of an unlucky scald burn. Personally if your winning or losing against a toxic stall Pokemon relies on one move hitting I think the flaw is with your team building. The point you'd also seemed to neglect was the fact that SV abusers cannot cause the mayhem SC abusers and Garchomp did. I you miss the Ice Shard against garchomp your mamo dies and you lose a valuable and possibly only check to chomp. If your Rest-Talk Milotic missed Scald or Ice beam once against gligar it won't make a difference in the end. My point is that even with the evasion advantage, gligar is not really any better than he was before, in that Gligar either walls something or not. Unlike Garchomp who could use one miss to get past otherwise great counters, from which there were few to begin with.

 

[alexwolf]

It doesn't matter if one miss against Gligar decides the game, but what matters is if the miss brings the SV user any closer to victory.

I am not even suggesting that Gligar is a tough poke to beat. Every faster strong special attacker gives it trouble, and it's offensive presence is very limited. What i am saying is that it has the potential to make an otherwise nice game into complete bullshit and turn the tides of the battle completely, with no skill whatsoever.

I don't know for you, but I, prefer my games without having to worry about my opponent winning with his SV pokes, even when i clearly overplayed him, even if this happens 1 out of 20 matches. SV brings only negatives to the meta, and this is why it is unhealthy.

 

[Amire]

I've been laddering a lot recently and I'm also fed up with losing against sand teams because of a miss. SV is unhealthy for the metagame and while Stoutland has a fairly big list of counters, it's very powerful given the right support (for example Magneton). It seems to be even more sand teams on the top of the ladder than last round. Why is this? Is it perhaps because sand is a bit more powerful than we would like to hear, as it is very fun and simple to use.

I am very positive that if sand left the metagame(broken or just veery powerful), it would be for the best

 

[casey90]

Well I suppose I can't argue with you on that point alexwolf. Personally I don't find it that annoying, but that's just my opinion.

With that said I thought Smogon's policy on banning things was based on them outright being broken, as opposed to "haxy". The only decision ever made in this favor that I know of was the Brightpowder / lax incense ban. One that is often considered a terrible decision. So I would ask this larger question. Is sand broken as a whole, or is SV hax just plain irritating? People talked about Snow Cloak being the thing that pushed Hail over the edge, however it was the playstyle as a whole that was banned. Could that be the same case here?

 

[alexwolf]

Well I suppose I can't argue with you on that point alexwolf. Personally I don't find it that annoying, but that's just my opinion.

With that said I thought Smogon's policy on banning things was based on them outright being broken, as opposed to "haxy". The only decision ever made in this favor that I know of was the Brightpowder / lax incense ban. One that is often considered a terrible decision. So I would ask this larger question. Is sand broken as a whole, or is SV hax just plain irritating? People talked about Snow Cloak being the thing that pushed Hail over the edge, however it was the playstyle as a whole that was banned. Could that be the same case here?

DT and Minimize weren't banned for being broken, as far as i know, but for adding nothing but negative factors to the game (luck factor).

 

[/B/utterfree]

Hail was banned not because of Snow Cloak. Again, reading those articles from Stage 5 diligently expressed that Hail was just too good for UU, period. Abomasnow went back to BL where it belonged, and then Mamoswine simply went up to OU. And then Hail was never heard from again...

 

[Mario With Lasers]

DT and Minimize were banned because we wanted to ban them. End of.

If we want to ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak, we will ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak. And that's all there's to it.

 

[casey90]

That about sums it up Mario.

Anyway onto a different topic. I've really noticed the spikestacking trend has gone down recently, either that or my perception is a little biased because there is no Deo-D around spiking everytime I switch anything in. Anyone else enjoying the less hazard heavy Meta?

 

[pokemonisfun]

DT and Minimize were banned because we wanted to ban them. End of.

If we want to ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak, we will ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak. And that's all there's to it.

I know I wouldn't say anything more on this sand veil topic but honestly this annoys me a bit. Of course they were banned because people wanted to ban them. That is true of everything, bans obviously only happen if people want stuff to be banned because people want a balanced game. But it is equally true we must have sound reasoning to ban something; it is that sound reasoning that makes us "want" to do anything. What I previously asked for was the aforementioned sound reasoning. I am simply saying you need more than a "want", you need to justify that "want" with something or else the game goes screwy. If you have justification for any position then say so, but what is the need of saying "we will ban what we want to".

Something else that has been bothering me, I sometimes look through this thread, because I have nothing better to do, and I see how lots of people state their opinions as if they were facts. Naming names is pointless, you can see for yourself, not to mention I do this myself, but I find consistently doing this is just arrogant and self defeating. Of course you do not have to listen to me, but if we all tried to divide the spheres of opinion and fact more sharply, I am sure we could all understand each other more.

As far as how the game is shaping up right now, I would love to see more people use more defensive teams. I can see few things breaking up some defensive pairs like physically defensive Arcanine coupled with specially defensive Milotic. When well made, stall teams tend to be very stable and do not have to adapt to threats very much. If that is true then they make the whole game itself more stable by setting a standard. I feel like defensive stall breakers don't even deserve the name because with a couple speed EVs Sableye can screw over Mew, other Sableye, and Gligar. That means you only worry about really strong stuff so it comes down to just making sure your members cover each other and can keep healthy.

Lastly, it is beyond me as to why there is so little creativity right now. Even Mew which is supposed to epitomize how powerful the "other options" section can really be is being crucified with the same old, same old. Nobody tries to use SD Empy to catch the mandatory Rosy switch in off guard or mix Victini to take down counters or CB Lax to take on frailer switch ins. Even if its balanced the game is pretty stagnant which makes it pretty boring, something you aren't about to fix with a quicky ban.

 

[jamashawalker]

Hail was banned not because of Snow Cloak. Again, reading those articles from Stage 5 diligently expressed that Hail was just too good for UU, period. Abomasnow went back to BL where it belonged, and then Mamoswine simply went up to OU. And then Hail was never heard from again...

That whole statement is completely false. Hail was banned because of Snow cloak! It was easier to just ban snow warning then it was to ban three pokemon who were the main abusers (Mamoswine, Frosslass, Glaceon) Seriously just running those three abusers + Snow Warning+ 2 fillers got people to the top of the ladder. All three of those are major threats with just 1 miss. There was the Blizzspam scare which was just that a "scare." It was hardly a big of a threat as some people made it out to be. And the reason we never hear from hail again is that both Abomasnow and Snover were banned. So no one there now to auto-induce hail. All of the Sand viel abusers are on shit level compared to the Snow Cloak abusers.

Lastly, it is beyond me as to why there is so little creativity right now. Even Mew which is supposed to epitomize how powerful the "other options" section can really be is being crucified with the same old, same old. Nobody tries to use SD Empy to catch the mandatory Rosy switch in off guard or mix Victini to take down counters or CB Lax to take on frailer switch ins. Even if its balanced the game is pretty stagnant which makes it pretty boring, something you aren't about to fix with a quicky ban.

I agree with that part. There seems to be a real lack of creativity coming from this metagame which is even more balanced and open for creativity. Even some old school tradition sets still will work

 

[casey90]

I've found Technitop to be a real force lately. There are just SOOO many pokemon that I see set up and I laugh like, lol that Swords dance/nasty plot won't save you from getting Fake Out-Technipunched. I like to pair it up with Lax (usually) for some pursuity goodness against the obvious chandy switch. I am having a bit of a debacle here though. I currently run FO/MP/CC/SP but I'm debating whether or not to switch out sucker punch for stone edge. Weirdly enough I actually play Technitop as a lure for non sub using psychic types like azelf and mew. They usually just go for the NP figuring they can dodge the Sucker Punch and eat a close combat. At this point they almost always go for the attack, either figuring I don't have sucker punch at all or that I'm too timid to try it. Suckers.....

I've also been finding that about half the teams on the ladder get nearly 6-0'd by Rest-talk milotic with some hazards.

 

[Blazebat]

From what I have experienced in the new metagame Milotic and Snorlax seem to be some of the most potent poekmon available. To take them down generally takes a super effective hit on their weak defense and even then, switching them out and then in on a weaker attacker allows them the chance to rest. It seems that the new sleep mechanic has not done much to harm the power of rest in many UU pokes. I am considering running a dedicated anti sleep talker, as most successful defensive cores I have gone against use at least one rest user (Roserade, Shaymin, Suicune, Milotic, Dusclops, Snorlax, and the occasional Bronzong).

 

[/B/utterfree]

From what I have experienced in the new metagame Milotic and Snorlax seem to be some of the most potent poekmon available. To take them down generally takes a super effective hit on their weak defense and even then switching them out and then in on a weaker attacker allows them the chance to rest. It seems that the new sleep mechanic has no done much to harm the power of rest in many UU pokes. I am considering running a dedicated anti sleep talker as most successful defensive cores I have gone against use at least one rest user (Roserade, Shaymin, Suicune, Milotic, Dusclops, Snorlax, and the occasional Bronzong).

I can vouch for Snorlax still being potent. Thing is, I'm using CurseLax and that alone has helped me sweep teams (with help from hazards provided by Swampert (SR) and Roserade (Toxic Spikes)). Hardly needs much to get going, if EV spreads are good and it gets a Curse under its belt.

 

[alexwolf]

Another amazing poke is physically defensive CM Bronzong with SR, GK and Psyshock (for CM wars).

SR is an amazing utility move, and gives to Zong something to do instead of just sitting there early game, while also bluffing amazingly well a support set. After seeing SR, the opponent will almost always assume that you are a support set, thus leaving himself open to a late game sweep, when his fire type and the pokes that beat this set are dead. Bronzong is also very resilient to entry hazard damage and immune to Toxic and ss damage, fearing only burn as far as passive damage go, so that's another plus he has as a CM user!

 

[TheBaron]

I still say neither Sand Veil nor Snow Cloak nor (Gasp! KILL THE HERETIC!) BrightPowder are broken. We even banned Lax Incense with it's measly 5% accuracy drop. 5% is nothing, people. Deal with it. Double Team and Minimize are unfair, however, because they boost evasion to ridiculous levels. I would, however, support a ban of SV/SC + BrightPowder on the same Pokémon. Let's say that your Pokémon team is a financial investment bank. How will your team/bank grow/win? By taking risks. Potential threats that would require risk/benefit analysis include Critical Hits, Accuracy Modifiers, Entry Hazards, Weather and Trick Room teams, Junk Bonds, and many other things. All of these risks have a way, but not always a viable way, to eliminate them. Thus many players (myself included), choose not to eliminate or even restrict these risks. I have heard calls for the elimination of the Critical Hit. Thank goodness these were shouted down. However, these are the extremists of a group that could have real clout. They want to eliminate anything that they believe is "uncompetitive". A 20% boost in evasion is hardly broken. When I think of broken I think of Scizor (or even Staraptor) in UU. That would be broken. The mainstream members of this group (mainly the top 10% of the ladder; sound familiar, folks?) say that hax, also known as failure to adequately assess and deal with risks, has cost them dearly. Would it cost them dearly to use Lucky Chant or Shell Armor? Would it cost them dearly to run a Poison-type? Would it honestly be that difficult to use a Wide Lens, a Victini, or a Compoundeyeser? I say NO if hax is truly destroying their experience. They would probably say yes. Hax is something everyone deals with. Hax is part of the game, and while it may piss us off, it can also bring jubilation when you win on back-to-back critical hits with Hydro Pump. I, for one, am able to appreciate the game for what it is. The banning of Pokémon is essentially a resorting of it into a different tier. It does not demonstrate a lack of appreciation. These greedy 10%ers say that they should be allowed to eliminate all luck from the game. May I remind them that luck is what allows players to move up and down with ease, thus keeping the ladder fun and exciting? I probably don't need to, because they recognize the word "down" when they see it.

--The Baron
A member of the 10%

 

[SJCrew]

Yes, we know hax is apart of the game, but we don't have to allow all of it. If we allowed every luck induced factor introduce to control the game the way Gamefreak intended, we would still have things like Moody and Double Team. Gligar and Cacturne have their alternate abilities available and wouldn't even be soft banned. The only reason critical hits are still allowed is that there is no option to change or turn them off in the game.

Also, I don't think anyone who's faced off against the silly trend of Sub Toxic Gligar users on the ladder is going to argue that these types of strategies are healthy for the metagame. Are you aware of how many Pokemon he can wear down and defeat with that strategy alone, even without a miss? The chance to miss makes it downright retarded.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Sand Veil can have a substantial impact in any game in which it is present, and anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't been fucked by it. You predicted and used Ice Punch on the switch with CB Rhyperior? Too bad, it just missed, and your opponent has a free switch to Empoleon. You used U-Turn with Flygon and it missed? Free turn, yay. Matches are easily won and lost on one turn, and Sand Veil statistically guarantees one every 5 attacks aimed at Gligar. That's a how advantage, as we saw with Froslass.

It's not just 100% accuracy moves, it's also moves that, while normally somewhat reliable, become extremely unreliable with Sand Veil. Fire Blast becomes less accurate than Focus Blast, Hydro Pump, Stone Edge and Will-o-Wisp are now as accurate as Hypnosis...

Sand Veil becomes even more egregious when you need to 2hko Gligar with something. You spent all that time grabbing momentum and weakening it with SR damage such that you can 2hko it on the switch with CB Return from Stoutland? Too bad, one of them just missed, and it just Roosted out of KO range. This isn't an uncommon occurrence, either - the chance of 2 otherwise 100% accurate moves hitting in a row? 64%. That's ridiculously unreliable.

Sand Veil should be banned. I want this done for once, while the metagame is still relatively balanced and we don't have much else to worry about.

 

[pokemonisfun]

I have a question, if sand veil is banned would it just be illegal in UU or UU and all tiers below? As in if you ban it, you would be banning Sandslash from RU. Not that I would be opposed to the ban at all, but I was wondering if the UU senate even had the authority to change tiers like this (you're taking something that is not UU and slapping a ban on it).

 

[FlareBlitz]

Based on what was said during the Snow Cloak debate, PO is set up such that it automatically gets banned in all lower tiers if banned in UU. I don't see how that would be any different from, say, us banning Wobby or (hypothetically) banning Smashpass and having it banned in RU, though. Tiering decisions made in a higher tier can and do have impacts on metagames in lower tiers, and sometimes even vice versa.

We may be able to come to a compromise and just look at it on Gligar / Cacturne / anything else with an alternate ability; we'll have to see.

 

[GTS]

I think much like the Snow Cloak debate, this is all really singled around one annoying pokemon. Then it was Froslass, now its the bulky scorpion thing Gligar. However, it actually held more weight then because Mamo hadn't migrated to OU yet...

Here, the only other carriers of Sand Veil are Cacturne and Sandslash, and I don't think either of them have been proven broken by any degree.

Cacturne has all the tools to be just as annoying as Froslass, besides being weak to fighting and bug instead, he has spikes taunt sucker punch and then some to abuse with his supposedly broken ability.

I think until further research has actually been done on Sand Veil, the culprit should be reconsidered...

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I think much like the Snow Cloak debate, this is all really singled around one annoying pokemon. Then it was Froslass, now its the bulky scorpion thing Gligar. However, it actually held more weight then because Mamo hadn't migrated to OU yet...

Here, the only other carriers of Sand Veil are Cacturne and Sandslash, and I don't think either of them have been proven broken by any degree.

Cacturne has all the tools to be just as annoying as Froslass, besides being weak to fighting and bug instead, he has spikes taunt sucker punch and then some to abuse with his supposedly broken ability.

I think until further research has actually been done on Sand Veil, the culprit should be reconsidered...

The culprit here is definitely Sand Veil, and if anything should be banned it's the ability. Sand Veil is what makes Cacturne and Sandslash relevant in UU, and it's pretty nice to Gligar as well. It's not the defensive stats or the movepool that makes Gligar run a mean Physically Defensive SubToxic set (as most Pokemon have the moves to use a set like that), it's that Sand Veil makes it infinitely easier for him to spread Toxic and stall like crazy. If anything should be suspected right now, it's Sand Veil.

I'm still firmly against a Sand Veil ban, but I will admit that Sand Veil is the most reasonable Suspect at the moment.

I still say neither Sand Veil nor Snow Cloak nor (Gasp! KILL THE HERETIC!) BrightPowder are broken. We even banned Lax Incense with it's measly 5% accuracy drop. 5% is nothing, people.

Simple as that, everyone.

Would it honestly be that difficult to use a Wide Lens, a Victini, or a Compoundeyeser? I say NO if hax is truly destroying their experience. They would probably say yes.

Agreed.

Also, is changing the weather in UU that hard? I mean, just stick Sunny Freaking Day on your Registeel or something and presto-no more Sand! Now the opponent has to switch Hippo back in, take hazard damage, and get worn down. Sand is only a huge problem because non-weather teams allow Sand to set up without having to win a weather war. Sticking one Weather move on one random Pokemon can surprise an opponent using his Hippopotas as death fodder or expecting to hax the opponent with Sand Veil. Or use Rain Dance Kingdra, who's utterly awesome in UU right now. I mean, there are so many options available right now to get past Sand Veil it's surprising that people are more willing to reach for the banhammer instead of their thinking caps. Let's experiment with some ways to weaken Sand Veil before we kick it to BL.

 

[Axa]

Just a question though, if Sand Veil woud be banned, would it be a complex ban (no Sand Stream and Sand Veil on the same team), or just an outright ban of Sand Veil?

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Just a question though, if Sand Veil woud be banned, would it be a complex ban (no Sand Stream and Sand Veil on the same team), or just an outright ban of Sand Veil?

Complex bans are pretty unpopular at the moment if I remember correctly, so I would assume an outright ban of Sand Veil would be what happens.

What happened with Hail was that the Senate voted on what aspect of Hail would be voted on, then the actual vote happened, so that's probably what will happen here. If Sand (or some form of Sand) gets suspected, then it's likely that the Senate will decide between Hippopotas, Gligar, Sand Veil, or Sand Stream+Sand Veil and the winner of that poll will be given a proper Senate vote.