np: UU Stage 9 - Welcome Home

[/B/utterfree]

Let's be real, who would slap on three different fire types on one team(counting vulpix that would be 4), that team would be incredibly SR weak. Are you also forgetting that things like rain dance kingdra and tornadus exist? It's not like sun is gonna be all the time.

You can also sport a Grass-type Chlorosweeper such as Victreebel who maims Kingdra. Then, you use a filler 'mon who can still kill opposing sun teams or Cresselia.

In short, permanent Sun will just result in uncreative teams except from batshit crazy players like me who might slap Umbreon, Cresselia, Torterra, and other tanky Pokemon who benefit immensely from Sun making their reliable recovery more than superior - it will make their recovery perfect.

 

[superbadd]

I suggested a cholrophyll+drought ban, so if that's implemented then there won't be a chlorophyll sweeper to add to that team.

 

[Pocket]

superbadd please don't derail the thread. kokoloko said he and other senators are open in testing Hail / Sand, not Sun.

As for the topic, like RT, it would be nice to test Hail again. Abomasnow and Mamoswine are both OU, Kyurem is BL, and Froslass just lost Snow Cloak. There are plenty of threatening Fire- and Fighting-types to wreck hail, and Snorlax's big presence doesn't exactly help, either.

 

[Reaver12]

Bronzong is a full on stop to both Hail and Sand (offensively based teams at least), we now have Prankster Rain Dance via Tornadus, and we have a plethora of ridiculously strong Fighting types that can set up on and KO a vast majority of the Pokemon that abuse these weathers (As in they wreck Rock, Steel, and Ice types).

I'll point out a again that while our metagame is really fun right now, it's also extremely offensively based. The fact that a Pokemon like Raikou, at 115 speed, viably runs a choice scarf is indicative of how fast paced and offensive it really is. The passive damage from Hail and Sand, as well as the healing and defense boosting powers that the weathers have (via Ice Body, or the SpDef boost given to rock types) might make the metagame balance out a bit.

Or it might overcentralize it and make me look like an ass, but I'll say a one more time I think it warrants a final test. The vote was so controversial, and so far from unanimous, last time that the reasons not to test it again seem silly.

(I am in no way in favor of Sun being tested, now or ever again. I miss Gen IV when that shit was just in Ubers)

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I don't think hail would be problematic at all. Snover is crappy, and some of the best hail abusers are banned. The best hail strategy is probably stall which...doesn't seem broken.

 

[superbadd]

Weather stall, and maybe some rare HO teams are probably the only things we'll get if we unban hail/sand. For sand to be not broken it needs some work to be done... A stoutland ban is what will most likely happen.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I don't think hail would be problematic at all. Snover is crappy, and some of the best hail abusers are banned. The best hail strategy is probably stall which...doesn't seem broken.

Yeah, Snover is awful, which hinders the strategy a lot as it is. On a Hail-stall team, at best it can maybe throw a Toxic or Leech Seed here and there to rack up damage, in conjunction with Protect. You can use it as death fodder (it saves you the "what do I sacrifice?" dilemna that most teams have, since Snover is the obvious choice), but even then, you have to remove anything which uses Rain Dance (i.e. Kingdra, Uxie, Electrode, Volbeat, etc.) beforehand to be safe.

 

[exotic]

I think Hail is the only perma-weather I think that needs a retest. Sun is just broken, and sand will be just to good because it was the metagame is almost the same as back then. Hail suffers from the snow cloak ban and there are still a lot of ice resists like bulky waters. Also, Hail will be a good counter to rain.

 

[666lumberjack]

I would support a Hail retest. I think the newfound popularity of fighting-types will be a pretty heft blow to Hail, and the lack of both Mamoswine and Snow Cloak are also significant nerfs. Glaceon is incredibly easy to revenge kill, while Froslass has mediocre special attack and no more Snow Cloak to abuse. I couldn't say either way whether hail would truly be a good or bad thing for the metagame, but I wouldn't mind seeing it tested.

Sand, on the other hand, can stay the hell out of UU. Even with a Stoutland ban (which WOULD be required, that thing is really good now) we now have Sand Rush Sandslash, who is just as strong with arguably better STAB, solid bulk, and Swords Dance to abuse. It also has access to a Rapid Spin that would be almost impossible to block, with most ghosts easily falling to a boosted Earthquake or Stone Edge. I feel this would have a very detrimental impact on Spikers within the tier, as Sandslash also beats pretty much all of those.
With sand released, the metagame would devolve into "kill the opponent's Sandslash check, sweep" on almost every matchup. I also don't feel simply banning both Sand Rush abusers is an attractive solution, because at that point you're banning two Pokemon which are perfectly viable in the lower tiers purely to allow a greatly nerfed Hippotas in UU. This is without mentioning the huge special defense boost rock types would grab, making them also much more potent.

Don't even mention sun. Don't go there. That isn't happening. EVER. I'm sure anyone who played the sun meta will aknowledge only the presence of equally broken Pokemon like Staraptor and Kyurem had any hope of keeping it in check.

 

[Mazz]

Having made a shanty list on what Hail would bring with it if it were to be retested, which I'm all for, I've noticed a few things that would change in the metagame;

• Raikou and Roserade become even harder to check.
• Snorlax and Lanturn gain a huge boost in viability.
• Walrein will be an ass, but will be a fundamental of Hail Stall.
• Many Pokemon considered RU or NU may become rather viable if Hail is brought back into UnderUsed, namely Piloswine and Rotom-F.
• Ground-type Pokemon already in UnderUsed, especially Flygon and Gligar, will find a Hail-inclusive metagame very dangerous, with a powerful, 100% accurate, 4x super effective move lurking around the corner.

The reason I say Raikou and Roserade become harder to check is because with Hail, their movepools become next to perfect. This is largely due to Weather Ball, which will allow both Raikou and Roserade to run Hidden Power Grass and Hidden Power Fire respectively, all while maintaining the coverage brought by Hidden Power Ice, but in a stronger move. This finally gives Raikou a way to get through Flygon and Swampert / Rhyperior at the same time, making it a massive threat. It must sacrifice its Timid nature, but this makes Raikou much stronger with its perfect-for-UU coverage. Roserade will be able to strike down Crobat and Steel-types from the same set, but would lose out on a lot of its survivability, having to most likely drop its only recovery move.

The rest are obviously common sense, however, I'm curious as to how the rest of the UU community feels about what Hail actually does to the current metagame and how such RU and NU Pokemon that benefit from hail will affect UnderUsed if hail is permitted back into the tier.

 

[Nas]

I honestly don't think Raikou would be very effective on a Hail team. If Raikou is using Life Orb, which it should be on a CM + 3 attacks set, it's taking 16% damage each time it attacks, which limits it to 6 turns of attacking before it faints. Since you are trading off Substitute for better coverage, you also become more susceptible to being revenge-killed not only by Choice Scarf users, but also by the Pokemon who now outspeed you because you're forced to use a Rash nature. (Mienshao, Cobalion, etc) Hail actually reduces the effectiveness of Raikou's SubCM set, which is undeniably its best set, so it's more likely that bringing back Hail will have the opposite effect to the one you described.

 

[Oiawesome]

LOL #FREEUUHAIL2012 OR #UUHAIL2012.
anyway sand could be intresting because intrestingly enough sand and hail balance each other out.
If snover comes in on ceartin things like non stoutland it can be a pain in the ass to get your sand up while hail just sucks balls with hugly bieng nerfed recently so yeah hail can smash sand and hail can get smashed if hippo comes in at the right time.Sandslash technicly "has no abillity" due to sand being banned lol but becomes a top teir THREAT once sand is un banned btw.also IF THIS DOSENT WORK OUT
when reuniiclis enevitibly drops (#ReUUniclis2012)it could be retested (weather) because you know reuniclis makes sand and hail its b*tc.

 

[/B/utterfree]

To be honest, I'm surprised by the lack of a Suspect Discussion. There are a couple of Suspect Nominess I've had in mind throughout my sojourns throughout UU this month:

Heracross
Mew
Meloetta
Tornadus-I
Raikou

These Pokemon all have one thing in common - their overall versatility which makes running offensive teams really easy. Meloetta, for example, can run mixed due to Relic Song and being able to switch from one forme to another using this move alone. Most sets don't even care about Ghost-types, which SubCM has repeatedly demonstrated.

A lot of these Pokemon can guarantee a kill or two for their worth, with absolutely little drawbacks to how they play. For example, with Tinted Lens and a Choice Specs, nothing is going to get past Yanmega's Bug Buzz unless they have the bulk and resistances combined to handle it. Acrobatics Tornadus is guaranteed to OHKO/2HKO almost the whole tier, and it has Superpower to get at whatever doesn't get smashed by Flying Gem-boosted Acrobatics.

These Pokemon also draw a lot of controversy and have shaped the tiers to try and make things adapt to them. For example, you either have to be faster than Raikou/Heracross or be able to sponge their attacks in order to triumph against them. Oftentimes they run a Choice Scarf, so outspeeding them is going to be improbable unless you also have a Choice Scarf Pokemon on something that is faster.

There's also Mew, whose unpredictability has more often than not led to various advantages. Though it has counters, they're entirely dependent on the set being run in the first place.

 

[Machi]

To be honest, I'm surprised by the lack of a Suspect Discussion. There are a couple of Suspect Nominess I've had in mind throughout my sojourns throughout UU this month:

Heracross
Yanmega
Mew
Meloetta
Tornadus-I
Raikou

These Pokemon all have one thing in common - their overall versatility which makes running offensive teams really easy. Meloetta, for example, can run mixed due to Relic Song and being able to switch from one forme to another using this move alone. Most sets don't even care about Ghost-types, which SubCM has repeatedly demonstrated.

A lot of these Pokemon can guarantee a kill or two for their worth, with absolutely little drawbacks to how they play. For example, with Tinted Lens and a Choice Specs, nothing is going to get past Yanmega's Bug Buzz unless they have the bulk and resistances combined to handle it. Acrobatics Tornadus is guaranteed to OHKO/2HKO almost the whole tier, and it has Superpower to get at whatever doesn't get smashed by Flying Gem-boosted Acrobatics.

These Pokemon also draw a lot of controversy and have shaped the tiers to try and make things adapt to them. For example, you either have to be faster than Raikou/Heracross or be able to sponge their attacks in order to triumph against them. Oftentimes they run a Choice Scarf, so outspeeding them is going to be improbable unless you also have a Choice Scarf Pokemon on something that is faster.

There's also Mew, whose unpredictability has more often than not led to various advantages. Though it has counters, they're entirely dependent on the set being run in the first place.

I'm flabbergasted you'd run Yanmega as a suspect... I find him to be hardly suspect material in that he's no top tier threat or meta game changing mon for the negative. He's simply too easily neutered in the UU environment to be that effective. I'll just re-post my thoughts from the UU viability thread.

I agree with Sharpedo but definitely not with Yanmega. I always found the coverage of Bug/Flying STAB and coverage of Grass(or whatever HP you decide over gigadrain) to be quite limited as compared to Sharpedo's Dark & Water STABS in addition to coverage of Ground/Ice (with the bonus of having the option to be either a physical or special sweeper). More importantly Dark/Water check super effectively the bigger fire threats which Yanmega does have some difficulty breaking through, as they can easily potentially check Yanmega by tanking a hit provided healthy (clearly Darm/Victini/Lure can't exactly tank an LO waterfall/crunch even when healthy)

Moreover, Sharpedo does not have 50% of its HP (even if Sharp is weak to all forms of hazards at the very least it still won't add up to 50% with full layers not that you would give them the chance to do so, while SR by itself can be tricky to remove due to such a plethora of users and easy mind games as compared to stacking spikes) stripped by SR, giving more viability to LO sets. Whenever I do encounter Yanmega LO sets its usually as a lead but unfortunately that makes picking it off much easier since all my potential checks or counters are still in full health. Lefties sets tend to be rather weak and frankly are quite easily walled.

The only thing I would add to this is that I was talking about the speed boost set... If we talk about tinted lens set then frankly I find that even easier to manage simply because its far too slow to actually sweep, and common special walls like P2 or Lax still easily wall it barring consistent Air Flinch Hax (but frankly I wouldn't suggest banking on that). Once I see that it does not raise its speed given the speed creep as you've said, beyond Hera or Raikou, I can easily send something to revenge it as UU has a lot of common scarvers and good mons above that rest on the 100 base speed tier, forcing Yanmega out or outright killing it should it stay. Yes its common checks will take a heft more damage than they normally would but provided they are healthy and no hazard support has been set, such as Zapdos (who tends to run more defensive sets and does resist Yanmega's STAB + has good bulk), its still possible to live through a tinted lens bug buzz/air slash and proceed to revenge. You still have the problem of actually finding an opportunity to let Yanmega in safely before any SR is set on the field. Then we have the speed boost + specs set but it just runs into the same problem of the LO set, sure it has more power but its STABS are still quite easily walled by a plethora of common mons that can easily check it. I'm curious as to why you would consider Yanmega a suspect material mon... He simply put needs a lot of team support to work properly and that to me does not scream broken in any way, if all you have is that Yanmega hits hard then its not worth considering as a suspect for rather obvious reasons.

Mew I have never been a fan of that mon and I still stand that its most dangerous set it is a baton pass set as its a cut above the rest of the baton passers blessed with bulk, speed, and movepool. Its definitely something worth a suspect discussion, as for whether its broken well that's what discussion is for but I'm clearly biased against it so I'm in no position to really discuss it.

 

[pokemonisfun]

To be honest, I'm surprised by the lack of a Suspect Discussion. There are a couple of Suspect Nominess I've had in mind throughout my sojourns throughout UU this month:

Heracross
Yanmega
Mew
Meloetta
Tornadus-I
Raikou

These Pokemon all have one thing in common - their overall versatility which makes running offensive teams really easy. Meloetta, for example, can run mixed due to Relic Song and being able to switch from one forme to another using this move alone. Most sets don't even care about Ghost-types, which SubCM has repeatedly demonstrated.

hahhaaahahaaa this is exactly why I came back to these forums after only a month (other than my lack of life), not just because i missed reading your posts but because I thought I might have sniffed some blood in the water. ban ban ban!!!

Yanmega though is like totally not broken because SR exists and because Zapdos exists and because Snorlax exists and because yanmega has roughly 12 spdef. All of this means it has an extremely tough time coming in and making successful attacks against all but the most defensive teams which still have Snorlax and apparently nobody cares about stall anymore so thats pretty moot.

If you can argue Meloetta is broken you probably just argued mew is broken (at least i would listen to you man!)

Surprised you want to ban tornadus already when everyone else is in a middle of a discussion of reallowing weather (sand and or hail), wouldn't Tornadus be a weather inducer and makes the metagame more stable so it could take in weather again?

Raikou and Heracross are really really really good but not broken because they have counters and lowish staying power!!!

In any case shouldn't you think of allowing things to come into UU (hail, sand) before thinking of kicking stuff out of UU??

 

[/B/utterfree]

I'm flabbergasted you'd run Yanmega as a suspect... I find him to be hardly suspect material in that he's no top tier threat or meta game changing mon for the negative.

Not every Suspect necessarily has to be in the Top 10 stat usage threshold to be a dangerous Pokemon.

I run what used to be the Standard Speed Boost Yanmega set in Gen IV, which is the Life Orb set with Timid. I run Bug Buzz/Giga Drain/Shadow Ball/Hidden Power Ground - this tends to get at nearly everything in the tier anyway, even without Air Slash's flinch chance. With Giga Drain having been buffed, this set only gets better. I'm dissuaged by Protect because of the tendency for PS! kiddies to overuse it on Pokemon who don't need to use Protect in the various tiers (this one included), but if I had to run Protect over one of my moves I'd probably get rid of Shadow Ball.

Other than an atrocious Special Defense exploitable by a few Special Attackers (such as Zapdos), Yanmega does not really fear much from opposition. With Blastoise and Claydol among other Rapid Spin options presentable to me, Rocks will hardly ever serve to be a detriment to my team. That said, Yanmega does need a little support, at least compared to the other aforementioned threats.

I'd also like to note I did not recommend Roserade for being Suspected because the other already-mentioned threats mean more business than she does.

In any case shouldn't you think of allowing things to come into UU (hail, sand) before thinking of kicking stuff out of UU??

No. UU has become considerably more bonkers than it already was. Reintroducing what was broken in B1W1 will not help make the B2W2 UU metagame balanced. And honestly, the only acceptable BL unbanning would be the weather bans, and everyone and their mother is trying to dispel notions of Drought being considered, not to mention there already being an approached caution on Sand Stream and Snow Warning.

In such, there isn't really anything from BL that could be freed that won't already be banned back to BL by the community. If they do unban Snow Warning, it will provide a very bizarre surprise which would likely cause something else to be banned instead.

 

[Machi]

Not every Suspect necessarily has to be in the Top 10 stat usage threshold to be a dangerous Pokemon.

I'm confused why you'd associate top tier threat or metagame changing mon with statistics because I was talking more about Yanmega's viability which doesn't exactly scream broken as actually examined in the UU Viability thread. He is reliant on team support to be dangerous but that doesn't scream broken.

I run what used to be the Standard Speed Boost Yanmega set in Gen IV, which is the Life Orb set with Timid. I run Bug Buzz/Giga Drain/Shadow Ball/Hidden Power Ground - this tends to get at nearly everything in the tier anyway, even without Air Slash's flinch chance. With Giga Drain having been buffed, this set only gets better. I'm dissuaged by Protect because of the tendency for PS! kiddies to overuse it on Pokemon who don't need to use Protect in the various tiers (this one included), but if I had to run Protect over one of my moves I'd probably get rid of Shadow Ball.

Why were you positing tinted lens spec Yanmega as suspect when you use speed boost which really does not scream broken... The problem with an all out offense set like that is it leaves you quite vulnerable to priority such as the increasingly common Choice Band Azumaril Aqua Jet and Fake Out Ambipom. In addition you also become much easier to revenge with Choice Scarf users +1 will not be enough to to guarantee that you outspeed them when they come in to revenge you, so protect personally speaking is quite useful in this regard as it helps to net the additional speed necessary to outspeed scarfers which can make all the difference. So I'm not sure why you dismiss protect in UU especially on two mons, Yanmega and Sharpedo, who find great use for it in buying them a turn to outspeed their revenge killers...

As for your set I'm just not impressed he may have coverage but simply put its not that powerful and is still walled by the same mons that normally still do (Zapdos, Lax, and P2). While his checks remain as checks, just that you've gained some coverage against them but you'd be banking on them being not in good health and switching in to an attack. If they happen to come in to revenge, meaning in much better condition, they can dispose of Yanmega. Mons like Raikou, Empoleon (varies according to coverage moves used), and Chandelure remain checks (I wouldn't count Swampert as one as Gigadrain is common).

Other than an atrocious Special Defense exploitable by a few Special Attackers (such as Zapdos), Yanmega does not really fear much from opposition. With Blastoise and Claydol among other Rapid Spin options presentable to me, Rocks will hardly ever serve to be a detriment to my team. That said, Yanmega does need a little support, at least compared to the other aforementioned threats.

I'd also like to note I did not recommend Roserade for being Suspected because the other already-mentioned threats mean more business than she does.

Alright first off lets assume that even if you are quite a capable spinner it doesn't change the fact that Yanmega's switch in opportunities will be limited according to whether there are rocks on the field or not. His switch ins are highly dictated by that, as most SR setters are generally too bulky or capable of resisting his STAB (since you're talking about Speed boost now oddly enough when you rallied against tinted earlier). Moreover, it would be as a lead Yanmega if it were to challenge the SR setters which as mentioned is not to the favor of Yanmega since the various checks will be in good health. Then we have the fact that 95 speed tier is about the benchmark of a more normal speed tier meaning you'd really be taking chances trying to net that speed boost against more offensively oriented teams, even then it will be difficult since they tend to have scarved mons. While as for slower more deffensively oriented teams Hilarious pretty much pointed out some important staples such as Snorlax that none of Yanmega's moves could particularly dent.

Hence, Yanmega needs more support than you are implying as depending on the team you will either need to A) prevent or spin rocks b) eliminate faster mons c) eliminate specially defensive mons d) weaken checks with support hazard or proper prediction e) find proper slower mon to enter on that Yanmega can OHKO or force out so as to net a speed boost. These are just some things I've come across against other Yanmega players on the ladder and frankly those conditions to be met require a lot of team support and his dual STAB attacks simply lack coverage while his other non-STAB moves while powerful even aided with LO does fail to net some kills (which I personally find Sharpedo to much better pull off as a speed boosting late game cleaner).

Meaning Yanmega is not exactly having a cake walk against offensive and defensive teams to necessarily be deemed suspect.

 

[/B/utterfree]

Yanmega is not exactly having a cake walk against offensive and defensive teams to necessarily be deemed suspect.

Thankfully, I talked about him in IRC with kokoloko, and he brings about all the same points you do. All those points are valid, and I shall drop Yanmega as a Suspect Nominee posthaste.

 

[Chimera404]

In response to /B/utterfree's earlier post:

Was originally going to talk about why Yanmega is not good enough for suspect, regardless of its ability and stats, but since it's no longer an issue, I want to talk about the other Pokemon mentioned.

Mew is lethal, even if people are using it wrong. There's no point to be had using a cleric Mew set; its defenses are great but the Heracross weakness is just too bad for it. Stallbreaker is great and annoying as hell, but predictable and not uncounterable. Nasty Plot and Swords Dance, however, are what make it so damned annoying to counter, especially hybrid sets with Will-o'-Wisp to whack physical attackers or Softboiled for recovery. Taunt is also viable and it just sets up on so many things. Not to mention, hitting it with status results in synchronize activating, putting your own Pokemon at risk. I'm probably overstating the issue here, but I had such a nightmare with bulky sets last time around I'd vote for its ban any day.

Meloetta and Tornadus-T are great, but honestly?
Not worthy of the suspect. They fit right in and I'm having a blast running both on my latest team, but they're pretty easy to counter and add so much diversity to the metagame. I actually haven't seen too much of each on the ladder but they are honestly so fun to use. Meloetta's Mixed Relic Song is amazing (Dance, Meloetta, Dance!) but its SubCM set has to eventually take on Heracross or Darmanitan with mediocre base 77 Defense, forcing it to switch if it doesn't have a Substitute up and losing all its hard-earned boosts. T-T has viable Rain Dance and Acrobatics sets, but I prefer the ridiculous smashing power of the AcroNadus when set up. Brick Break > Superpower for most sets.

Heracross needs a test. It's too good. Smashes stuff with ease using Flame Orb + SD; sweeps lategame with the famous Moxie Heraboss set; the list goes on and on. A lot of viable offense teams are simply ScarfCross + Heracross counter-counters.

As much as I hate to see Raikou suspected, it might deserve a nomination. However, I think it adds a lot of diversity to UU, because it balances out so many threatening Pokemon. It's a nice balancing factor to the metagame, IMO, and not broken at all - while improper prediction will nab it a few KO's, it runs into 4mss for its SubCM set which is honestly the most threatening. You can't run CM/Sub/Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Aura Sphere, and if you pick Aura Sphere you simply can't do it with the crucial Timid nature that allows it to outspeed many threats. It's great, but hardly metagame centralizing.

 

[cim]

tbqh the only suspect i'd really consider would be mew. Heracross is up there but he's significantly prepared for in the meta at this point. Sure, he ends most games, but it's not DP Garchomp.

Mew can do fucking anything. Luckily, people are still using shitty SR / Softboiled / *bullshit* Mews and not actually super threatening ones like SD or NP and whatnot. But I'm scared of the potential...

 

[Mazz]

There's only four Pokemon in Underused that I believe are worthy of suspect testing, those being Mew, Heracross, Chandelure, and Raikou.

With Mew comes the bar of unpredictability, as it can effectively run 3 very different sets, Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, and Stallbreaker. Typically, in order to find out which set is running, you have to allow Mew to set up one of its boosting moves or Stealth Rock, which puts any player in a hole. Provided you can determine what set it is running beforehand, beating that specific set is no easy task either, with only 13 Pokemon in the tier naturally outspeeding it, and another 4 tying it. The coverage on the two offensive set also limits as to what can be used to check Mew, as very few of the Pokemon that can have the luxury of being able to afford to take a +2 hit. I remember a time not that long ago when Kingdra was considered unpredictable and only had a select number of counters. Unlike Kingdra, Mew has no guaranteed counters, as no Pokemon in existence can handle all three sets at once. Its superb coverage, great balanced stats, and sheer unpredictability make it too much for the Underused tier.

Heracross defines BW2 UnderUsed to such a degree that the metagame actually revolves around teams having a way or multiple ways to exclusively stop this Pokemon. The fact that Pokemon such as Gligar are even depended on is Heracross' doing. It's an excellent and cool Pokemon, but its great offensive typing, stats, abilities, and movepool make the metagame too unhealthy, as its limited number of offensive checks can be quickly eliminated by one of its coverage moves. Heracross has become so influential that anything slower than it should not be running a Choice Scarf, as it only adds to the number of Pokemon that it can blow past and accumulate Moxie boosts. I've experienced and heard stories of players playing terribly only to have Moxie Heracross dig them out of the hole and pull a win out from thin air, which shouldn't happen. If you've played terribly, there should be no "get out of jail free" card. Take the loss you'd typically get without Heracross and learn from your mistakes.

Chandelure is another one of those absurdly-powerful Pokemon found in the tier that has a very limited number of checks. It's too powerful really, since opting against running a Snorlax, Porygon2, Houndoom, or one of its other select checks is near ladder-suicide. The only way to afely dispose of Chandelure is to Pursuit-trap it with Snorlax or Choice Scarf Krookodile, or just overpower it on the revenge kill, which still leaves it room to switch out. Its base 145 Special Attack stat is simply too high for the tier to handle, especially when many of the Pokemon that resist its STAB combination are decimated by its coverage moves. With its hidden ability Shadow Tag looming around the corner, I feel that it's in the best interest for the UnderUsed tier to get rid or consider getting rid of this nuke before the insta-ban is mandatory.

Raikou is one of those commonly-debated UU Pokemon notorious for destroying teams if they lack a Rhyperior, Swampert, Snorlax, or Porygon2. As discussed on the Viability Thread, Raikou is one of those Pokemon you must prepare for, as it's too strong to be overlooked, and will take your team to town if you don't. Its two most-effective sets, SubSM and Scarf, have very little impunity regarding what they do, as SubCM can set up on most-every defensive check that lacks a phazing move or Earthquake, while the Scarf set is the best revenge killing set available to the tier, being able to eliminate many a threat from the opponent's team. It, like the other three I've mentioned, is among an elite group in this tier that every team must have a check for, and contributes to the "lack of creativity" to say the least, that UnderUsed is beginning to fall into.

Thanks to these four, teambuilding has become rather restriced, with a certain formula needed to succeed. With these four up for suspect, and even out of the metagame, more underrated threats, such as NP Cofagrigus, Rotom-H, and Mienshao will be able to take to the stage and lead the charge on a more diverse UnderUsed tier.

 

[TPO3]

As far as suspecting goes, there's not very many Pokemon in UU that are really powerful or threatening enough to deserve a suspect vote.

Mew is obvious, that shit is broken. It runs whatever moves it wants, whatever sets it wants, and it learns all TMs, HMs, and Move Tutors since the Advanced era. Literally with mew, as long as you can coherently throw 4 somewhat viable moves and a corresponding EV spread, it isn't a waste of a team slot. Just when you send in Snorlax, it uses Swords Dance and goes aggro with Drain punch, Zen Headbutt, and Sucker punch to run through your team. Or it's a defensive Will-o-Wisp/Softboiled set and it cripples your scarf Heracross. There's almost no limits to what Mew can do, and despite the fact that we have some new threats to fight it with, it's still too unpredictable and sets up too easily to not be considered.

Heracross I don't think is worthy of a ban, but I can certainly understand where everybody's coming from. It was used a lot back when all it had was Guts, and Moxie just made it even better. However like pokemazter said, teams have to have multiple ways to deal with Heracross or they are in danger of losing. However I think UU has multiple ways of dealing with Heracross in Crobat, Tornadus, Sableye's prankster Will-o-Wisp, Cofagrigus gaining popularity, and there are plenty of Psychic and/or Flying types that can capitalize off of ScarfCross locking itself into the wrong move. I personally don't feel Heracross deserves to be banned, but I'm not going to cry about it if it is.

Chandelure and its ridiculous base 145 Special Attack I could also understand, however it's pursuit bait, there's Flash Fire, and there's a few pkmn that just hard counter it. Offensive teams also can take it out fairly easily as it has so many common weaknesses in Dark, Rock, Ground, Water, and Ghost. Its three immunities are cool, but it lacks the speed to be a huge threat to Offensive Teams without Choice Scarf IMO. Once Shadow Tag is released, this all obviously changes.

Raikou is definitely a top-level threat, but like Chandelure, I don't feel it's powerful enough to warrant a ban. There are multiple ground-types in the tier that can check, if not counter it. IT has to pick between HP Grass and HP Ice, so it's going to be weak to at least one ground-type. It's also susceptible to all of the hazards, and it doesn't have a reliable way to heal itself. It has cool speed, but it doesn't possess the absurd power that Chandelure does.

I will always feel that Kingdra deserves to be suspected. Much like Heracross, you have to have multiple pokemon to check it on your team. With Tornadus, Rain is just going to become more prominent (despite the fact that SubAcrobat Tornadus is still its best set.) which means Swift Swim Kingdra will be everywhere. Empoleon is the only pokemon in the tier that resists both of Kingdra's STABs, so Kingdra sets up on almost anything. Still though, all of its "powerful" attacks (Draco Meteor, Outrage, Hydro Pump) have severe drawbacks in nuked Special Attack, locked in for 3 turns, and shaky accuracy, so I could still easily understand if it isn't banned. I don't expect it to be. I just feel it has enough of a case to be looked at.

 

[Machi]

With Mew comes the bar of unpredictability, as it can effectively run 3 very different sets, Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, and Stallbreaker. Typically, in order to find out which set is running, you have to allow Mew to set up one of its boosting moves or Stealth Rock, which puts any player in a hole. Provided you can determine what set it is running beforehand, beating that specific set is no easy task either, with only 13 Pokemon in the tier naturally outspeeding it, and another 4 tying it. The coverage on the two offensive set also limits as to what can be used to check Mew, as very few of the Pokemon that can have the luxury of being able to afford to take a +2 hit. I remember a time not that long ago when Kingdra was considered unpredictable and only had a select number of counters. Unlike Kingdra, Mew has no guaranteed counters, as no Pokemon in existence can handle all three sets at once. Its superb coverage, great balanced stats, and sheer unpredictability make it too much for the Underused tier.

One other aspect of Mew I'd like to emphasize is its bulk... Yes it is a psychic type but it is one of the few psychic types actually capable of taking a hit, barring freaks of nature SE attacks like Chandelure (but he's outsped normally and you'd be taking a gamble for reasons already stated). Meaning not very many Pokemon even with SE+STAB hit can necessarily take down Mew as it has just enough defense uninvested to take a hit (and if its a SE+Drain Punch it can recover next round). So whether it is a boosting sweeper, stealth rock setter, or my least favorite baton passer its generally difficult to stop Mew from doing its job with speed and bulk to back it up.

What only augments in making Mew more difficult to handle is its ability. While clearly boosting sweeper sets wouldn't appreciate a crippling status fact is thanks to Synchronize your status setter will be punished nonetheless for crippling Mew. Mew is difficult enough to take down in one hit but even if you status it to make it far more manageable it comes at a price of having a crippled mon yourself, unless it was done by a bulky cleric (generally outsped) or you carry another cleric (either way you lose some momentum leaving you open for an attack).

 

[Forsety]

Amusement over Yanmega as a suspect aside...

I'd have to also agree with all the sentiments as of late that it is way overdue for some serious banning or suspect consideration. Anyone who has been playing UU lately can easily see it is simply not fun nor particularly balanced. I'd also like to add that I fully agree Heracross, Mew, Chandelure, Raikou need to finally be considered in official capacity for a ban. As of this time all four of these have never even been considered in any official capacity despite the glaring fact they all make team building more a chore than a exercise.

Heracross needs to be considered because quite frankly Moxie finally pushed it over the edge. UU is far too overprepared for this guy because everyone knows once he kills you've lost. So only way to stop this instant checkmate is prevent him from ever netting the initial kill, in the end it just makes using any other physical sweeper feeling redundant.

Mew needs to be considered for a ban under a support argument I think is the best way to go about it. There is no arguing the fact Mew is the ultimate team building glue pokemon, he has way too many tricks under it's sleeve. Way too much bulk and speed which makes it able to fully utilize every single set. Mew amplifies the danger factor of every single sweeper or setup in the whole of UU for little to no cost, it can be the ultimate stallbreaker or hazard setter too. It's near impossible to kill this thing when EV'd correctly even with SE STAB attacks. Yet it still retains enough offense and speed to launch it's own assault if possible or be a sweeper in it's own capacity. The recent banning of Mew because of it's promotion to OU only amplified the issue with that point of UU being one of the most playable. Mew has got to go.

Chandelure has rendered defensive teams and clever switch play dead in the water. Simply packing this guy instantly nullifies the threat any balanced or slower team can offer. There is way too much downplay of this guy's lethality despite the stats and people's opinions indicating otherwise. Fact is he has the typing to give switch ins on some of the most dangerous sweepers in the game. He does have the defenses to take some attacks and he has proven time and time again his special attack is too much for UU to take.

It's been established multiple times Raikou is the best special attacker and sweeper in the game yet Kingdra has been discussed in a official capacity with the emphasis on it's special offense and Raikou never. Really how it has never been officially thrown up is beyond me, it's bulk, speed and special attack can not be replicated by anything in UU at all and it can still boost to amplify this. It's in a complete league of it's own in raw brute stats, though admittedly I say it is 4th place at best in terms of priorities as a suspect, but fact remains it should be considered for suspect at least once.

I hope there'd finally be some movement regarding some actual suspect discussion because at the moment UU has some very huge cobwebs it's about time for cleaning out.

 

[Machi]

I've experienced and heard stories of players playing terribly only to have Moxie Heracross dig them out of the hole and pull a win out from thin air, which shouldn't happen. If you've played terribly, there should be no "get out of jail free" card. Take the loss you'd typically get without Heracross and learn from your mistakes.

One thing I'm not particularly fond of though with Heracross matches is when both players have Heracross' and the match is decided by winning a speed tie. Its irksome since in close games where the checks of Heracross have been wiped out and all you have left are slower mons or injured mons winning the speed tie makes all the difference, even if one side outplayed the other much better they may end up winning by sheer luck of the draw. Moxie just makes cushioning the loss of the speed tie all to difficult for obvious reasons, mons that normally would have ended up checking Heracross cannot stand up to a Moxie boosted STAB or coverage move.