np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

[JabbaTheGriffin]

BK's run into a couple of roadblocks so once he gets past those and gets the server up to full capacity (scripts and whatnot) he'll get to the UU ladder. It shouldn't be too much longer. I know it's frustrating, but thanks for being patient you guys.

 

[Pancham]

Thanks for all your work, Jabba, R_D, and BK, all of your hard work won't go unmentioned or ungratified.

I don't see the need to rage at the community over Chansey still being around. We're still pretty early in the suspect process, and Chansey did get enough votes to get suspect status next test, so most people are on the same page, anyway.

I've heard a lot of people say that "chansey escaped notice because of all of the other broken stuff we had last round", but honestly what that means is that chansey was less broken last round. We really shouldn't vote based on our predictions of what will be strong next round, we should vote on the current metagame. Unless the voter pool changes significantly or a lot of people change their minds, chansey will be boarding the next train to banville anyway. I'd rather see discussion on how to beat it, since right now we're basically in a position of testing if it's not broken rather than the other way around.

You are obviously wrong. Chansey hit exactly 50% votes to ban, therefore most people are not on the same page. The community of UU players is split indefinitely. 50% of the people think "Oh, Chansey, it's just a fat pink blob that can only sponge hits and look cute," whereas the other 50% think "Chansey is a fat pink bitch that is obviously broken, and obviously needs to be banned for the sake of the UU metagame." That's how I take this. anyway.

Also, going on about the current metagame, last metagame the only mons that could beat Chansey 1v1 are Staraptor, who ultimately receives a ton of residual damage, And Wobb, who needs another mon with Pursuit to help ensure its death. That in my eyes, only having 2 mons that can beat it, is a sign of a defensive suspect worth banning.

You forgot "and pass massive wishes to the rest of its team and heal their status problems and set up stealth rock and spread status". If you're willing to switch mismagius, alakazam, or pg-z directly into chansey then you're either playing really shitty opponents or you have pretty massive balls, because all it takes it "chansey used thunder wave!" and you're essentially down one poke.

The only way to really beat chansey is if you're also running a stall/balanced team and have a pokemon that can set up on it (roserade, deo-d, etc). If you're running offense and you somehow manage to switch into chansey with something that can actually 2hko it, you still have to deal with the fact that it either just wished, took off 33% of your health with stoss, or healed all the statused members of its team. This wasn't as big of a problem in this last metagame because the most popular Pokemon that chansey gave a free turn to (staraptor, wobby and espeon) were so absurdly dangerous that they were able to overcome any set up that chansey itself managed to do. But since we felt the need to ban these offensive/support threats (and they did deserve to be banned), chansey has only gotten stronger, significantly so. And if we keep banning offensive/support threats while telling people "just run knock off :D" then I don't see how this metagame is going to be anything other than a stall circlejerk. Again.


I really wonder what would happen if we dropped Giratina into UU; would that even get banned? People would probably just say "meh the defensive set is vulnerable to all hazards and it has issues with u-turn and it can really just sit there and be fat so let's keep it around" and then maybe ban it because it has really strong draco meteors.

I think there needs to be a fundamental change in the way we think about defensive suspects, because Chansey is so perfectly described by the defensive characteristic that it blows my mind that it has not been banned yet. Chansey is as representative of what is imbalanced in a metagame with respect to defense as Staraptor was with respect to offense and Espeon was with respect to support. That fact that all of these pokemon could be beaten (skill swap works great against espeon!!) should have no bearing on the fact that beating them is disproportionally difficult and causes a drop in metagame diversity and, ultimately, fun. This is much more difficult to see with defensive suspects, simply because they can't just come in and start KOing things like staraptor could. Their impact is spread out throughout the course of a match, especially in the case of a defensive supporter like chansey. Maybe that's why people think it's not a problem. Or maybe people have just gotten used to looking at a special attacker and saying "meh this can't beat chansey let me not use it" or "meh this can't beat chansey, let me devote two more team slots to ensuring it can". I don't know, you guys tell me.

I was just about to type this before I went and checked to make sure nobody else did. It's obvious that the community thinks differently with the defensive component of suspects. I also agree that, if Giratina was UU, would have been banned simply because it has strong ass Draco Meteors, not because of the fact that it could wall the entire metagame indefinitely.

This round, lets think about Chansey with these lights, not because Staraptor, Espeon and Wobb's brokenness out-shadowed Chansey's

 

[asdfrozen]

Can't most fighting types beat Chansey 1v1 (I'm not in any way implying that this makes Chansey not ban-worthy; I'm just replying to the above post).

 

[Pancham]

Can't most fighting types beat Chansey 1v1 (I'm not in any way implying that this makes Chansey not ban-worthy; I'm just replying to the above post).

ScarfCross Close COmbat fails to OHKO Chansey.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

What about burn orb Heracross? And speaking of, how viable is that set? I used it a lot ingame last gen.

 

[Nas]

What about burn orb Heracross? And speaking of, how viable is that set? I used it a lot ingame last gen.

Try outlasting Chansey with a Burned Heracross that will be taking 12% at the end of every turn, not to mention entry hazards, switching in on Seismic Toss and Protect stalling. You might get 2 or 3 switch-ins before Heracross kills itself, and all you will accomplish is forcing Chansey out.

That Heracross may beat Chansey 1v1, but under common battle circumstances Chansey isn't going to stay in on it and a burned Heracross won't last long enough to do anything. So no, I wouldn't say that set is very viable, at least if you're going to be depending on it to counter Chansey.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Of course offensive and defensive suspects are different. A Pokemon that sweeps through 95% of the Pokemon in the tier is far more dangerous than a Pokemon that walls 95% of the tier, as long as that Pokemon has dangerous counters that can set up on it.

This is a perfect example of the mentality I was speaking about earlier. A powerful defensive suspect is every bit as dangerous as a powerful offensive suspect. The only difference is that a powerful offensive suspect sweeps teams immediately once its main counters are gone, while a powerful defensive suspect merely switches in multiple times and stalls until all the opposing sweepers are dead. Saying "roserade/mismagius sets up on chansey" is about as relevant as saying "skarmory/bronzong sets up on garchomp", because the consequence of losing skarm/zong against a team with a garchomp is exactly the same as the consequence of losing rosie/missy against a team with chansey. The only reason people are more inclined to ban offensive suspects is because their power is clearly visible, whereas dying to several sr switchins and random seismic tosses is much less so. It has nothing to do with a fundamental difference in the concept of offensive/defensive suspects.

5th gen Chansey is considerably stronger than 4th gen Chansey. Yes. But it's still exploitable and has no lack of weaknesses. I listed some above. It can also be worn down. Clearly switching Mismagius / Alakazam / Porygon-Z directly into Chansey is brave, but Chansey has no lack of viable switch-ins. You could send in a RestTalker, a Sleep-inducer, etc and force it out. The next time it comes in it's vulnerable. 5th gen Chansey is also completely limited offense wise. This is a key difference between it and Giratina.

I don't understand the kind of player that leaves chansey in on a crocune or a choicer that is clearly about to Trick. The point is that every viable strategy that beats chansey is easily countered by other members on a stall team (besides possibly trick). And while that wouldn't be such a big deal if chansey was like cresselia, with few support options, it's not. Every time chansey comes it, it will be doing something very evil, so unless your counter is able to do something that is even more evil, chansey's user still has the momentum. It's the same argument behind banning offensive suspects that have clear counters but incredible sweeping potential, such as garchomp. I fail to see why it's any less applicable just because we are discussing defensive suspects.

And it's interesting that you cite giratina's offense as the reason it would be imbalanced, when I had predicted that very same argument earlier...

Remember also that with team preview you know if you're facing a Chansey. If you can get Alakazam / Porygon-Z in safely against something other than Chansey, you can expect Chansey to switch in! Mismagius can easily switch into Chansey's SToss too, which it will use at some point, same as Wish. Chansey will not be using Thunder Wave all the time.

By the same token, if your opponent sees that you have missy, they're going to be quick to use thunder wave on their chansey if they have even half a brain. Team preview aids neither side in this discussion.

----

So anyway, I've been messing around with a few silly things due to boredom, and one of the things I've noticed is how unprepared the metagame is for BP Celebi. It seems that nearly every phazer is either a bulky water or a bulky ground type, meaning they can't even touch celebi, and it's fast and bulky enough to seriously mess with opponents. I use an SD variant myself, because Sucker Punch is great against random scarfers that they think can get me before I pass. I've gotten pretty high on the PO ladder with a team that uses SD Celebi and several choice banders, but then again, it is the PO ladder...

My next goal is to build a stall team that doesn't suck .___. Wish me luck

 

[PoJ]

Try outlasting Chansey with a Burned Heracross that will be taking 12% at the end of every turn, not to mention entry hazards, switching in on Seismic Toss and Protect stalling. You might get 2 or 3 switch-ins before Heracross kills itself, and all you will accomplish is forcing Chansey out.

That Heracross may beat Chansey 1v1, but under common battle circumstances Chansey isn't going to stay in on it and a burned Heracross won't last long enough to do anything. So no, I wouldn't say that set is very viable, at least if you're going to be depending on it to counter Chansey.

I agree. I think CB Heracross is the best Hera to use right now (Or scarf, but I prefer Band). It OHKOs Chansey, and if Chansey switches, it'll still hit REALLY hard even on things that resist it (Except ghosts, of course). If you have entry hazards up, that adds to the damage.

I've been using CBCross (Mostly to support my CM Latias by taking care of Ttar) in OU and it's very effective. Sadly, Gliscor and Hippowdon (To a lesser extent, since it doesn't resist Hera's STABs) lessen Hera's usefulness in OU, but it's still amazingly powerful, especially if you can get Hera burned/poisoned.

 

[Banedon]

I don't understand the kind of player that leaves chansey in on a crocune or a choicer that is clearly about to Trick. The point is that every viable strategy that beats chansey is easily countered by other members on a stall team (besides possibly trick). And while that wouldn't be such a big deal if chansey was like cresselia, with few support options, it's not. Every time chansey comes it, it will be doing something very evil, so unless your counter is able to do something that is even more evil, chansey's user still has the momentum. It's the same argument behind banning offensive suspects that have clear counters but incredible sweeping potential, such as garchomp. I fail to see why it's any less applicable just because we are discussing defensive suspects.

And it's interesting that you cite giratina's offense as the reason it would be imbalanced, when I had predicted that very same argument earlier...

Of course not. That's why I wrote that you get Mismagius / Porygon-Z / Alakazam in against something else. Chansey is forced to come in, because if it doesn't something else on its team takes big damage. Once Chansey is in, you switch out to something that forced Chansey out, like CroCune. Because CroCune can set up on Chansey, leaving Chansey in to Wish heal itself is potentially dangerous. It might not be able to heal. Then the next time it comes in, it is vulnerable. That is how you wear Chansey down.

Same applies to Mismagius. You do not switch Mismagius into Chansey when it can feasibly Thunder Wave (at least, you don't unless you're feeling brave). But Chansey will not be using Thunder Wave every time. It has to Wish and Stealth Rock and Aromatherapy, and that's when you get Mismagius in. Or you get Mismagius in on something else, as above.

Defensive suspects are not the same as offensive suspects because you have a lot more chances to kill a defensive Pokemon than you do the offensive Pokemon before it starts sweeping your team. Remember, Chansey is fully vulnerable to entry hazards. You could switch in a special attacker like Nidoking, then predict the Chansey switch in to double switch to Heracross, forcing Chansey to take up to 37.5% damage without even hitting it, and potentially making it unable to wall Nidoking the next time round. This is an important resource you don't have against offensive Pokemon. You did predict my response with regards to Giratina perhaps, but you didn't refute it, so ... you claim this is the mentality you were talking about; I acknowledge the mentality and embrace it.

Go ahead and use Stall if you want, just be careful of stallbreakers as powerful as Clefable in last gen.

 

[Pancham]

Defensive suspects are not the same as offensive suspects because you have a lot more chances to kill a defensive Pokemon than you do the offensive Pokemon before it starts sweeping your team. Remember, Chansey is fully vulnerable to entry hazards. You could switch in a special attacker like Nidoking, then predict the Chansey switch in to double switch to Heracross, forcing Chansey to take up to 37.5% damage without even hitting it, and potentially making it unable to wall Nidoking the next time round. This is an important resource you don't have against offensive Pokemon. You did predict my response with regards to Giratina perhaps, but you didn't refute it, so ... you claim this is the mentality you were talking about; I acknowledge the mentality and embrace it.

Go ahead and use Stall if you want, just be careful of stallbreakers as powerful as Clefable in last gen.

We should not deal with defensive, support, or offensive characteristics differently, for no reason. They all exist in tandem for a reason, and if we take charge of those at different paces, then we ourselves are taking an ignorant charge at doing so. A defensive or support character is just as powerful, if not more-so, than an offensive character, like Staraptor. Sure, Staraptor was a pain in that it could 2HKO the entire metagame, but Chansey can essentially wall the entire metagame, without us even knowing about it doing so.

Furthermore, you assume you have had enough time to set up these entry hazards? Where did this time come from? What did the opposer do while you laid down these theoretical Spikes and Stealth Rocks? By these questions, we can assume your opposer laid down Spikes and Stealth Rocks him/herself, causing your Heracross and Nidoking to take up to 37.5% and 28.5% damage respectively just by switching in. This is why having to double-switch into a defensive character is dangerous in these theoretical role plays.

Clefable has dropped in usage for obvious reasons, its only move that enabled it to break stall lost all its credibility in regards to its nerf.

 

[Banedon]

Maybe I switched my Roserade into Chansey and put up Spikes as it switched out ... my opponent, on the other hand, is more than welcome to switch Roserade into Heracross and put up Spikes. This is a fundamental difference between offensive and defensive teams, and between offensive and defensive Pokemon.

Chansey does not wall the entire metagame. I bet I can name > 10 Pokemon that beat it, including several special attackers.

 

[Pancham]

Maybe I switched my Roserade into Chansey and put up Spikes as it switched out ... my opponent, on the other hand, is more than welcome to switch Roserade into Heracross and put up Spikes. This is a fundamental difference between offensive and defensive teams, and between offensive and defensive Pokemon.

Chansey does not wall the entire metagame. I bet I can name > 10 Pokemon that beat it, including several special attackers.

Or, perhaps, maybe the opposer decided to lay down SPikes in the lead spot, with perhaps Ferroseed or Omastar, while you were off doing the stuff you were doing.

As for Chansey walling the entire metagame, I obviously meant it in a rhetorical sense.

 

[Banedon]

And clearly "the stuff you were doing" does not include "stopping the other team from setting up hazards". If we're talking about an offensive team, why isn't said team threatening to KO the spiker? If it's not an offensive team, then why aren't screens / rain / Smashpasser with Sub + Shell Smash etc up?

Chansey walling the "entire" metagame wasn't the important part. The important part is this one:

I bet I can name > 10 Pokemon that beat it, including several special attackers.

Unless you're challenging me to name those 10 Pokemon, the question for you to answer is: do you really think a Pokemon with over 10 counters is BL?

 

[Mew]

What do you guys think of Sandstorm in UU? I think it's pretty viable, just too bad Sandslash' DW ability isn't released yet and Hail is pretty common.

Stoutland can be awesome in with high speed and poweful Returns/retaliates and others can stall very neat (Regirock).

 

[Downf4ll]

Garchomp was walled by Skarm, Bronzong, Ferrothorn and OHKOd by Thundurus, Starmie, Weavile, Mamoswine and Tyranitar, and 2HKOd by Rotom-W, Swampert, and a bunch of other bulky ice move users. If that's the case, why the hell did Garchomp get banned?

Right, Sand Veil or something along those lines.

Well if chansey has over 10 ways to beat it, why the hell do people want it gone?

Right, because guaranteed T-wave, SR, Aromatherapy, Wish and (to a lesser extent) toxic can beat these "counters" in the long run. In all honesty, FlareBlitz is more correct about this subject than anyone else I've ever seen on any other subject on smogon. My convoluted sentences aside, being a team player is just as threatening as being a lone sweeper. Why should we put defensive and support pokemon as a lesser priority in comparison to offensive pokemon, when this game is fundamentally team-based? You have to think of the impact each pokemon will have on the team as a whole in order to play even remotely well, and yet people still disregard defensive pokemon. Makes about as much sense as my English.

 

[Gerard]

I think sand is OK, while it's kind of dangerous, the terrier's best attack is a Fast reataliate to revenge something, while that hits hard, he is walled by most ghosts if he is choiced, by most steel if not, hail still the most dangerous weather (but i still fail to see the brokenness on it as a whole), rhyperior can be a bastart in sandtorm not dying to scald, but other than that, sandstorm seems pretty dead

 

[breh]

Ok this is unrelated, but:

has anybody else been having a lot of fun with restalk dusclops? it just doesn't die and walls so much.

on a side note, it is very hard to kill a combo of chansey + gligar + something with a move to phaze raikou and cune

 

[M BLADE]

Not Resttalk Dusclops, but i've been trying Will-o-Wisp/Calm Mind/Shadow Ball/Rest Duscops.

It's near damn impossible to take out this shit. it's weak and easily walled though

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

For some reason I've seen people occasionally using curse Dusclops with rest. It's really annoying.

 

[jamashawalker]

Unless you're challenging me to name those 10 Pokemon, the question for you to answer is: do you really think a Pokemon with over 10 counters is BL?

I would actually like to see you name 10 pokes that either arent afraid of chansey's status moves/can stop her from wish passing and keeps the pressure on the opponents team that they cant let the poke set up..
I agree with you that pressuring chansey by entry hazards and double switching is a good idea on paper..but in practice it is way harder in practice to the point where your designing your whole playstyle to stop just chansey, sometimes even to the point where i say "wait why do i have to switch chansey if he's trying his very hardest JUST to take it out?"

For some reason I've seen people occasionally using curse Dusclops with rest. It's really annoying.

yeah ive seen it too..lol completely fucks over BP teams and last stand pokes, but completely viable

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

I would actually like to see you name 10 pokes that either arent afraid of chansey's status moves/can stop her from wish passing and keeps the pressure on the opponents team that they cant let the poke set up..
I agree with you that pressuring chansey by entry hazards and double switching is a good idea on paper..but in practice it is way harder in practice to the point where your designing your whole playstyle to stop just chansey, sometimes even to the point where i say "wait why do i have to switch chansey if he's trying his very hardest JUST to take it out?"

I'll probably start playing UU again, was in OU for a while, but back when I ran an offensive hail team in UU, I found that a very good check/counter to blissey was Frosslass and/or Weavile with taunt. They were good sweepers with taunt anyway, but you can shut blissey down and be immune to ST with Froslass, and with weavile you can shut her down, hit hard with brick break, and then pursuit for the predicted switch. But yeah, fuck chansey.

yeah ive seen it too..lol completely fucks over BP teams and last stand pokes, but completely viable

Really? I've always kinda liked how curse works with ghosts, but it seems gimmicky and counter productive, because the opponent can just switch out, and you've lost half your health :/

Perish song can stop BP teams too.

Q; Is murkrow UU? Prankster gives him a wide array of toys to support the team with and screw over others. Priority taunt to shut down BP.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Garchomp was walled by Skarm, Bronzong, Ferrothorn and OHKOd by Thundurus, Starmie, Weavile, Mamoswine and Tyranitar, and 2HKOd by Rotom-W, Swampert, and a bunch of other bulky ice move users. If that's the case, why the hell did Garchomp get banned?

I would like to quote this part because it makes the argument that I was about to.

The number of a Pokemon's counters in the metagame don't actually matter (within reason); what matters is the ease in which those counters can be bypassed or ignored under common circumstances. In Garchomp's case, this was partially due to Sand Veil, partially due to Magnezone, and a whole range of other factors that ultimately led the community to decide that it was too powerful. In Chansey's case, it is the ability of Chansey to support its team in extremely useful ways while still having immense walling ability on both sides that pushes it over the edge. This is why many arguments that are along the lines of "how to beat chansey" involves someone outplaying the chansey user.

Once Chansey is in, you switch out to something that forced Chansey out, like CroCune. Because CroCune can set up on Chansey, leaving Chansey in to Wish heal itself is potentially dangerous. It might not be able to heal. Then the next time it comes in, it is vulnerable. That is how you wear Chansey down.
Same applies to Mismagius. You do not switch Mismagius into Chansey when it can feasibly Thunder Wave (at least, you don't unless you're feeling brave). But Chansey will not be using Thunder Wave every time. It has to Wish and Stealth Rock and Aromatherapy, and that's when you get Mismagius in. Or you get Mismagius in on something else, as above.

And here is an example; the Chansey user only loses when you outplay him. What is the point of saying "mismagius beats chansey!" when you can't safely switch Mismagius into Chansey? Correctly predicting one game and avoiding the Twave/Toxic doesn't mean anything when you incorrectly predict the next game and fall to it. Even the very few Pokemon that hands-down "beat" chansey are merely going to be forced out by something else...something which is about to be healed to full health.

Defensive suspects are not the same as offensive suspects because you have a lot more chances to kill a defensive Pokemon than you do the offensive Pokemon before it starts sweeping your team.

This is not a sensible argument. I could just as easily argue that offensive suspects require far less hits to kill due to relative frailty in comparison to defensive suspect, and are also more vulnerable to status and phazing.
Offensive and defensive suspects are not different, and your claims to the contrary are extremely unpersuasive.

You did predict my response with regards to Giratina perhaps, but you didn't refute it, so ... you claim this is the mentality you were talking about; I acknowledge the mentality and embrace it.

Well, it's not hard to refute. If Giratina's Atk and SpA were halved, it would still be broken in UU due to its absurd defensive capabilities (not 2hko'd by CB rhyperior, will-o-wisp, roar, etc) just like Chansey is despite not having any offensive ability.

 

[dori]

10 Things that can probably switch into Chansey without fear of much is:

Heracross Hitmontop Celebi Sigilyph Suicune Snorlax Roserade Escavalier Xatu Hariyama

These are just the Pokes that don't mind either of both status and can actually help your team out upon switching in. For example, a Guts Heracross, whether Scarfed or not, will now have CB power if it does get statused. Hitmontop can then play it's Foresight/Spin mind games, while Celebi can get ready to BP away something or utilitize for its own team. The rest are then basically slow ass hard hitters that definitely don't get enough love in UU as it is.

If we add to the list of Pokes that can take one of the statuses, then we have the ever annoying Milotic for only T-Wave versions, or Rhyperior as well. Then we have something that can just outstall Chansey like Weezing (who needs more love) when it only runs Toxic. (Pain Split is nice).

Although this doesn't include the load of Pokes Chansey also can't switch into, such as Azelf, Mew, Deoxys-D.

Or the Pokes that sit around doing nothing such as Dusclops and such.

I'm not advocating for Chansey to be booted or to stay, just pointing out the Pokes....

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

OH, I just thought of a chansey counter. Nidoking. He hits so hard with sheer force LO, and is immune to chansey's statuses.

 

[M BLADE]

Until you see that the main Sheer Force boosted moves are all special, and Nidoking gets walled anyway.

If only it got Gunk Shot, it could probably think on defeating Chansey.