np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

[jamashawalker]

10 Things that can probably switch into Chansey without fear of much is:

Heracross Hitmontop Celebi Sigilyph Suicune Snorlax Roserade Escavalier Xatu Hariyama

I stated that can switch in without fear of status/ stop her from wish passing...

heracross- wouldnt like a t-wave
hitmontop-wouldnt like a toxic nor t-wave unless it has rest
celebi-true on the baton pass part
sigilyph- pretty much allows chansey to heal herself and wish pass to something else..sigilyph needs like 4 Cosmic powers or even 6 before it becoming threatening..i would just heal myself with chansey then switch to my phazer right when you start setting up
Suicine/snorlax-same boat as sigilyph
roserade- yes it does counter all chansey's because it can set up spikes on her without fear, which forces chansey out ..but chansey could always wish to specific counter
escavalier- cant stop from wishing to a counter, but yeah only afraid of t-wave which shouldnt matter for it anyways
Xatu- unless its a 1 on 1 last stand poke xatu gives the opponent waaaayy too much momentum switching in on chansey
Hariyama- rarely used, but yeah forces chansey out to a different counter, but not a threatening set up sweeper

For most of the pokes they are beaten by a simple partner to chansey which is beyond easy to add on a team, i'm looking at dusclops, milotic, or slowbro

@winston-sorry forgot to quote...curse is used for that exact purpose, to force an opponent out..lets say crocune has alot of Calm Minds under its belt, then you send in curse and now its become really difficult for that crocune to stay alive/take hits/ and lose 1/4 life each turn..towards baton pass it carries over..so the opponent is nearly forced to switch out loosing all of their boosts the worked so hard to get :) its actually a very underrated strategy..lol i might start trying it out..yeah murkrow is UU and yeah that is the true best counter to any BP team, with priority haze/taunt/perish song unless you have mental herb to all your BPers to counter taunt...idk about how defensive it could be, even with priority featherdance, but i think thats why its not used as much

 

[dori]

Heracross doesn't necessarily mind a T-Wave. You are assuming it's always going to be Scarfed. As many other users have mentioned here, they use CB and or LO or even Rest Talk, so that Guts boost you're giving it, good luck taking a hit from it.

As for Sigilyph, your phazer will then be burned. Your Chansey is not running Aromatheraphy, Wish, Protect and a status move. It's pick and choose. And Sigilyph doesn't have to be threatening right away. It's not as if Chansey is actually doing much to it, where as even a burn on it takes away 12%, potentially more based on weather thanks to lack of Leftovers.

Suicune and Snorlax still fit the definitely of switching into Chansey, and then beating it. Snorlax can do whatever it wants all day to anything that comes in. CBLax and Curselax are both threatening to the metagame, whereas Suicune can just shuffle if there's some hazards, or you can stay in and be stalled.

And Excavalier is already shit slow, I doubt not outspeeding a Shuckle while paralyzed will hinder it much.

And Xatu can come in on anything Blissey does, set up a screen and U-Turn out. Or it can status something with it's own Toxic, Thunder Wave, and take 100 damage off with Night Shade, not unlike what Chansey is annoyingly known for.

So once again, all these Pokes can switch into Chansey, not be hindered, and force it to switch out. Remember in a long battle, which most will be if there are Chanseys involved, there's only enough Wishes to go around for everyone, especially since Chansey will have to risk staying in to Protect a few times.

And to that comment of "For most of the pokes they are beaten by a simple partner to chansey which is beyond easy to add on a team, i'm looking at dusclops, milotic, or slowbro" that goes for EVERYTHING. Any single Poke anyone will list, you can name counters, and someone will name a partner to help fix its issues. Which all leads back to the same thing: playing the actual battle.

Once again I'm not advocating a ban on Chansey or a tolerance of it, just stating educated opinions.

 

[Downf4ll]

I really wish Sheer Force Nidoking was actually viable physically. Aw well, we'll just have to wait until he gets the elemental punches (even though they're weaker than their special counterparts on nidoking >.>).

Well I'm pretty sure only Cobalion and Heracross are the only things that can do stuff after they counter Chansey if it's running toxic and if it's not then something like Flygon or Rhyperior would be good. You'd have to somehow find out which one though, and while this seriously blows my mind, I think the only way to reliably kill Chansey is to revenge kill it. Do you realize how fucking ridiculous that is? >.>

Alright, well in all seriousness she really needs to go.

Well, I'm done with Chansey, I've said all I'll ever need to say about the damnable pink blob. What do people think about Scolipede? Send it out first for some T-spikes (or spikes I guess) to set up, give it SD and STAB megahorn along with a coverage moves to sweep (although it has to compete with heracross for a position) or maybe you could run a BP set with SD or Agility. Thoughts?

 

[dori]

A Deoxy-S style is best IMO. Give it Life Orb, one of the hazards, but not both, because then you're expecting too much out of one Pokemon and that could be bad. Then you have Megahorn, Earthquake and Rock Slide to play with off a decent attack boosted by LO. Neutral Megahorns or SE coverage moves do pack quite a punch.

 

[jamashawalker]

Heracross doesn't necessarily mind a T-Wave. You are assuming it's always going to be Scarfed. As many other users have mentioned here, they use CB and or LO or even Rest Talk, so that Guts boost you're giving it, good luck taking a hit from it.From practice I can tell you that heracross has lost alot of potential from being paralyzed..its pretty much became escavlier without the bulk and the resistances

As for Sigilyph, your phazer will then be burned. Your Chansey is not running Aromatheraphy, Wish, Protect and a status move. It's pick and choose. And Sigilyph doesn't have to be threatening right away. It's not as if Chansey is actually doing much to it, where as even a burn on it takes away 12%, potentially more based on weather thanks to lack of Leftovers. ..most phazers dont care about being burned..it would be a benifit to milotic/heracross too..sigilyph jsut allowed chansey to heal and heal another teammate..and chasney doesnt care a damn about status anyways lol

Suicune and Snorlax still fit the definitely of switching into Chansey, and then beating it. Snorlax can do whatever it wants all day to anything that comes in. CBLax and Curselax are both threatening to the metagame, whereas Suicune can just shuffle if there's some hazards, or you can stay in and be stalled.
well no chansey is just gonna stay in and let them set up +3 or more..I stated "stop her from wish passing" which is what she'll do to the appropriate counter..which is something most walls CANT do

And Excavalier is already shit slow, I doubt not outspeeding a Shuckle while paralyzed will hinder it much.
I tried the pressure with escavlier but its alot harder than it sounds without alot of spikes and SR..which for some reason everyone states that its the chansey's side of the field but not their side, limiting them to the number of switch ins they can do as well

And Xatu can come in on anything Blissey does, set up a screen and U-Turn out. Or it can status something with it's own Toxic, Thunder Wave, and take 100 damage off with Night Shade, not unlike what Chansey is annoyingly known for.
lol first night shade doesnt work on chansey, and chansey doesnt give two shits and toxic nor thunderwave..this is all assuming that its a 1 on 1 batle when you just left chansey the option to heal her team and herself..giving them momentum back to your opponent

So once again, all these Pokes can switch into Chansey, not be hindered, and force it to switch out. Remember in a long battle, which most will be if there are Chanseys involved, there's only enough Wishes to go around for everyone, especially since Chansey will have to risk staying in to Protect a few times.

And to that comment of "For most of the pokes they are beaten by a simple partner to chansey which is beyond easy to add on a team, i'm looking at dusclops, milotic, or slowbro" that goes for EVERYTHING. Any single Poke anyone will list, you can name counters, and someone will name a partner to help fix its issues. Which all leads back to the same thing: playing the actual battle. Actually not for every poke, chansey is one of those types of pokes that can easily plug a hole for a team and simple to build around unlike the majority of other pokes..that's why ppl are saying two of chansey's primary counters Wobb and staraptor..staraptor threatened to OHKO/2HKO EVERYTHING, while wobb ensured that chansey would be put in a checkmate position..no other poke has that ability

Once again I'm not advocating a ban on Chansey or a tolerance of it, just stating educated opinions.

 

[Banedon]

@Flare - the Mismagius user has plenty of time to switch Mismagius in. He can afford to; Chansey poses no offensive threat. Once Chansey paralyzes something I can sacrifice like Registeel, then it becomes increasingly unlikely to keep using Thunder Wave. If Chansey stays in a few more turns it can get more damage on Registeel, but it lets Registeel put up SR, maybe paralyze it (but only maybe, because of Natural Cure) and it provides windows for Mismagius to get in. You CAN "persuade" Chansey not to use Thunder Wave; if it does nothing but use Thunder Wave it uses none of the Aromatherapy, SR, Wish, etc.

If Giratina had no offensive moves other than Seismic Toss, Thunder Wave and Toxic (i.e. no Roar, no Calm Mind, no Will-O-Wisp, etc) I'd be willing to give it a go in UU. The typing is still potentially a problem though; Ghost / Dragon is clearly better than Normal (it for example blocks Rapid Spin).

Offensive suspects require far less hits to kill than defensive suspects, but you can't stop them from severely weakening or thrashing your core. 4th gen Heracross in UU is a good example. As for Garchomp, I haven't played OU so I don't know what it was like there.

10 Pokemon that switch into Chansey without fear:

1. Roserade - Natural Cure, puts up spikes, etc. Chansey can Wish to a counter, but the hazards are still up. If they don't get spun before Chansey has to switch in again Chansey will get worn down.
2. Donphan - immune to TWave, threatens to spin, gets a chance to score big hits on incoming spinblockers, has Knock Off.
3. Shaymin - Natural Cure, Leech Seed, Seed Flare's SpD drop, 404 Subs.
4. Rhyperior - immune to TWave. Maybe it can't kill Chansey outright but it has tools to do so (SD and Toxic - Rhyperior has great QuakeEdge coverage, even if you want to keep Megahorn you still have a free slot). 404 Subs, can Focus Punch.
5. Uxie - doesn't mind paralysis, Toxic is problematic but not immediately crippling. Gets to put up screens, Stealth Rock, weather, whatever. Has U-turn. Also has Knock Off.
6. ChestoRest Kingdra - clearly ...
7. Clefable - not exactly common in this meta (has lots of weaknesses etc) but it's almost unaffected by TWave, can heal itself, can set up on Chansey (or just go in with LO Double Edge, praying for a crit), learns Trick, etc.
8. Mew - 404 Subs, learns Baton Pass / U-turn, can Taunt, can set up on Chansey, has Psyshock. Synchronize means it's still faster than Chansey in the short term.
9. Celebi - Natural Cure, learns Baton Pass, can use Swords Dance, Leech Seed, etc.
10. Xatu - Magic Bounce, has its own recovery, has its own status moves, learns U-turn.

I'm sure I missed a lot, too (like someone used a Dusclops set with Mean Look, Rest and Spite on me once ...).

Also note that this is the worst case scenario of Chansey being in against something it completely walls while being healthy enough to use Thunder Wave / doesn't have to do team supporting like Aromatherapy. What if it's something else that's in and Chansey that's forced to switch in? Then it's at risk of getting worn down. What if Chansey is hurt and has to Wish? Then anything faster with Taunt breaks it apart. And so on and so forth. Chansey is hardly impenetrable, and there are plenty of Pokemon that can switch into it - something that isn't the case with offensive suspects and, I believe, Garchomp in OU.

 

[dori]

jamashawalker, you don't seem to comprehend the point. The point is that these Pokemon can switch in with no fear to practically any practical set Chansey uses.

If I went by your logic of "well Xatu lets Chansey wish pass" well then that's true for EVERY SINGLE POKE bar Dugtrio/Trapinch/Wynaut. Even if Staraptor was around "well I could Wish on the switch to Staraptor and then my random ________ doesn't care if they predict right." Nothing stops a wish pass. You concede that Roserade abuses Chansey to set up, well Chansey can still Wish pass.

See where you're going with this? Because you're not exactly reading what I'm saying either. For example, I'm not saying Xatu is Night Shading Chansey, but it could just Toxic it and repeatedly spam moves when Chansey switch out, ie Night Shade.

You are arguing something that isn't even up for debate. There is no denying that the Pokemon I've listed can switch into Chansey unharmed and are not specific counters. It seems like you're talking because you just want to talk.

P.S. Just because your experiences with certain things are unfortunate (Heracross) doesn't mean it's true for everyone. I've had plenty of fun spamming CB Guts Megahorn/CC's before.

 

[Gerard]

Heracross doesn't necessarily mind a T-Wave. You are assuming it's always going to be Scarfed. As many other users have mentioned here, they use CB and or LO or even Rest Talk, so that Guts boost you're giving it, good luck taking a hit from it.

Hello Dusclops/Gligar (No, night slash doesn't 3hko)

As for Sigilyph, your phazer will then be burned. Your Chansey is not running Aromatheraphy, Wish, Protect and a status move. It's pick and choose. And Sigilyph doesn't have to be threatening right away. It's not as if Chansey is actually doing much to it, where as even a burn on it takes away 12%, potentially more based on weather thanks to lack of Leftovers.

So your CroCune is buned, i hardly think there's something bad about that situation, since you just save yourself a possile toxic, same with many other phazers

Suicune and Snorlax still fit the definitely of switching into Chansey, and then beating it. Snorlax can do whatever it wants all day to anything that comes in. CBLax and Curselax are both threatening to the metagame, whereas Suicune can just shuffle if there's some hazards, or you can stay in and be stalled.

Phaze them too, and is not like Suicune/Dusclops/Mandibuzz will have some problems against both of them

And Excavalier is already shit slow, I doubt not outspeeding a Shuckle while paralyzed will hinder it much.

Dusclops says hi again

And Xatu can come in on anything Blissey does, set up a screen and U-Turn out. Or it can status something with it's own Toxic, Thunder Wave, and take 100 damage off with Night Shade, not unlike what Chansey is annoyingly known for.

Xatu retains not extremely stelar defenses and an OK typing, switching twice or more times into SR doesn't help

So once again, all these Pokes can switch into Chansey, not be hindered, and force it to switch out. Remember in a long battle, which most will be if there are Chanseys involved, there's only enough Wishes to go around for everyone, especially since Chansey will have to risk staying in to Protect a few times.

And when you actually pass the wish you will fully heal the pokemon, it's not like you need to be carefull when you pass those obsenely ig wishes, you can just wish in te switch-in and switch out

And to that comment of "For most of the pokes they are beaten by a simple partner to chansey which is beyond easy to add on a team, i'm looking at dusclops, milotic, or slowbro" that goes for EVERYTHING. Any single Poke anyone will list, you can name counters, and someone will name a partner to help fix its issues. Which all leads back to the same thing: playing the actual battle.

Defensive partners are way more effective than offensive ones since in the end they are the less hindered about switching in and out (while you can only do so a few times with balanced offense)

Once again I'm not advocating a ban on Chansey or a tolerance of it, just stating educated opinions.

 

[dori]

Why are you mentioning CroCune? You do realize that a Suicune without Roar will in fact eventually lose to Stored Power right?

And you do realize Dusclops isn't doing much to an Excavalier right? Especially if it's paralyzed. In fact it weapons paralysis since it would have a burn immunity. And Dusclops is not going to do much in the way of a CB Iron Head, or CB Pursuit if it predicted Chansey, or god forbid, if it faces a Swords Dance Leftovers one.

And if any combination of defensive Pokemon can always be countered by any combination of offensive Pokemon. If it wasn't possible, then there wouldn't be any reason to not use a stall team and always win. But whatever your defensive core is will have a weakness. UU is no different than OU. You can try to counter as many things you want Jellicent/Ferrothorn/Gliscor but you will still fail. UU you can try however many Nidoqueen/Chansey/Dusclops/Gligar combination you want, but you're just going to end up weak to Mew+any offensive Pokemon ever.

See where I'm going with this? It's all Pokemon. You can't argue for something one way and not have the exact same logic and strategy used against you.

The point still remains is that there are Pokemon able to switch into Chansey. That's the -only- point. In no way does that mean Chansey is or is not broken. You keep attempting to pick apart my posts except I'm not arguing for anything other than -there are Pokemon that switches into Chansey without harm-

 

[Machi]

Heracross doesn't necessarily mind a T-Wave. You are assuming it's always going to be Scarfed. As many other users have mentioned here, they use CB and or LO or even Rest Talk, so that Guts boost you're giving it, good luck taking a hit from it.

Actually I would say there are more Scarfcross than LO or CB - could just be me of course. So the T-Wave pretty much hurts Hera, and even then irregardless of whether it is CB or LO crippling it with T-Wave makes revenging Heracross a whole lot easier and a lot less threatening in its ability to revenge. Then again doubtful any scarfcross and to an extent CBcross players would switch in to Chansey without second thought unless they know it packs Toxic instead of T-Wave as they also wouldn't want a Seismic toss and being choice locked means a good switch in means it'll be forced out (potentially racking up passive damage).

And Xatu can come in on anything Blissey does, set up a screen and U-Turn out. Or it can status something with it's own Toxic, Thunder Wave, and take 100 damage off with Night Shade, not unlike what Chansey is annoyingly known for.

Well I pretty much agree to a degree that Xatu can set up screens with Chansey and just get the hell out of there (U-turn or just switch). Otherwise there is absolutely nothing Xatu can do unless you're lucky enough to switch in and reflect Chansey's toxic. As Xatu will just be doing nothing but Roost while it takes in the damage from Seismic toss. Since I assume its an oversight (like interchanging the pink blob for the fatter evolved pink blob) Night Shade has no effect on Chansey. While Xatu's other offensive options of an Hidden Power or Psychic would do piss poor damage. Even then switching Xatu out to a Poke better able to handle Chansey is again a matter of outplaying the Chansey user as you wouldn't want your sweeper to take a 100 HP Seismic toss or status.

Sigilyph for me tends to be rather conditional. It works half of the time for me and doesn't for the other half. Sure it can really turn Chansey into set up bait, and burn does help when its the last Poke standing as it makes KOing Chansey a whole lot easier (I use the CM version~ CB version really won't be doing much damage least CM is closer to 2 OHKO and beats CB Sigilyph). While it can be somewhat easy to predict a switch in most phazers don't mind the damage dent you leave on them unless you get lucky with the phaze and have a heavy hitter. While Heracross really puts a huge damper on you. Otherwise it definitely benefits from having Chansey around to set up on IMO.

 

[SJCrew]

]Well I pretty much agree to a degree that Xatu can set up screens with Chansey and just get the hell out of there (U-turn or just switch). Otherwise there is absolutely nothing Xatu can do unless you're lucky enough to switch in and reflect Chansey's toxic. As Xatu will just be doing nothing but Roost while it takes in the damage from Seismic toss. Since I assume its an oversight (like interchanging the pink blob for the fatter evolved pink blob) Night Shade has no effect on Chansey. While Xatu's other offensive options of an Hidden Power or Psychic would do piss poor damage. Even then switching Xatu out to a Poke better able to handle Chansey is again a matter of outplaying the Chansey user as you wouldn't want your sweeper to take a 100 HP Seismic toss or status.

Come on dude. Are you really telling me you've never run a Calm Mind Xatu before? Give it Psyshock and HP Ground/Fire and it's good to go.

 

[PttP]

man dori should get mods for being the only one using common sense

and for the guy who uses dusclops as a placebo, guess what.

dusclops sucks and literally cant do anything but ummmmmmmm suck?

edit: and xatu does beat chansey 1v1 if it runs toxic which it can easily use over thunder wave and please stop assuming chansey carries both toxic and twave

edit2: and golurk is obviously the best chansey counter...

 

[Downf4ll]

Why are people even stating counters anyway? We're just going to end up in a retarded theorymon battle. Oh wait...

Honestly though, whether it's wish, SR, aromatherapy, T-wave, or toxic, the fact that you pretty much need to run multiple chansey counters on a team should say something about how freaking broken this thing is. How many of you have actually put a special sweeper on your team since UU started? My guess is you took it off after your first match against a chansey...

The thing is, chansey's impact is harder to see in comparison to say, staraptor. It isn't meant to sweep; it's meant to do stuff that will guarantee your loss in the long run. Although, if you get swept by a chansey you should seriously consider doing something else. The whole reason people are arguing for the thing's ban is that the impact is there, just in a different way, and it's arguably just as large as staraptor's, or wobbuffet's or kyurem. I mean if it wasn't, there wouldn't even be a debate on this.

EDIT: *looks at what I posted earlier* and now I'm a hypocrite, great D:

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

swept by a chansey

XD

but in all seriousness, I think chansey definately needs to get kicked. In Staraptor's case, you thought "what pokemon will I sacrifice now", before getting a revenge kill in. In chansey's case, the fat pink blob can't even be OHKO'd by the strongest physical attackers in the tier, and brings half the user's team back to life and able to fight as if they just started the battle. It does too much. Without the hard hitters in OU, UU chansey is just too much to stop.

 

[jamashawalker]

sorry not gonna quote from that day's post lol but after utilizing chansey on both a stall and balanced team and also using both thunderwave and toxic I have never stood firmer on the side of chansey being broken in this metagame..Out of all the counter's listed and threaten an entire team immediately, only roserade, chestorest kingdra, celebi..and if mew and mismagius can avoid the status can freely switch into chansey with no worry.and most pokes thought it was safe to switch in before getting hit by a status move...every other set up poke on chasney is way to easy to stop with another poke..Xatu is probably the last thing you would wanna switch into chansey, espcially on a stall team..scenario's happen too much where they try to beat chansey 1 on 1 and instead let them heal their entire team

Also you really dont see special sweepers anymore unless they can make chansey think twice about switching in which limits the amount of pokes we can use...im looking at what Banedon said, things with trick/psyshock boost/taunt..And to the double switching hazard strategy..i've noticed people state this strategy with physical attackers...yeah if you make a team around physical attackers and spikers,i dont think you'll be having a problem with chansey anytime soon either

Also, is it just me or from the conversation we've been having about chansey that there has been a huge spike in spikes/aromatherapy roserade usage+mismagius combo..ive ran into this too many to count, that i know its always gonna be spike roserade..and they always seem to be a specific answer to chansey

 

[dori]

If you're going to make a case on Chansey being broken, you make the case by saying it's effects on the metagame. You don't state that case by saying which Pokemon can or cannot beat it.

For example, I'm sure there's probably a few things that can switch into Kyogre and Deoxys and such, but everyone can clearly that they are unhealthy for the metagame.
(I'm not advocating for any retiering of any Pokemon ala JTSwift in case anyone wanders off topic with this comment.)

If Chansey is broken, say how it causes you to use X strategy and that you're not allowed to use Y strategy because the only reason why anyone ever refutes Chansey being broken is most likely due to the inability of those who want to ban Chansey to logically explain why it is broken.

I mean, no one here has actually said that Chansey -isn't annoying- at the very least. It's quite in universal agreement. But just because Chansey can throw around status does NOT make it ban worthy. "Oh Cresselia can Thunder Wave, Toxic, AND Psycho Shifts burns yeah it lives forever!!!!!! Oh Clefable is always immune to hazards and can Wish and can Thunder Wave and can Toxic oh my god it can set up a sweep too!!!!!"

See? This gets messy very quickly.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Thing is, when your physical sweeper has problems with ms. blobby and is prolly averaging 3HKOs(with Staraptor gone only Victini/Arcanine IMO has a real shot of 2HKOing now), you DO know something is wrong. Clefable is bulky but its not EVEN that bulky compared to Chansey, although you could argue the same for Cress...

 

[JockeMS]

Thing is, when your physical sweeper has problems with ms. blobby and is prolly averaging 3HKOs(with Staraptor gone only Victini/Arcanine IMO has a real shot of 2HKOing now), you DO know something is wrong. Clefable is bulky but its not EVEN that bulky compared to Chansey, although you could argue the same for Cress...

Umm, a Swords Dance boosted Reckless Head Charge from Bouffalant can OHKO Chansey.

Head Charge vs. 252/252+ Chansey 85.9% - 101.1%

But he is no sweeper as such, at least not as those two you mentioned. He wins 1 on 1, as he has access to Taunt and is faster. He is more like a wall breaker.

Probably to going hear something like: "Bouffalant can't do anything". Well, he can. With Reflect up, Scarf Heracross is dead. Even Choice Band Heracross can't OHKO it when at full health. And Heracross is the best counter against Bouffalant.

Well, I'm not saying Bouffalant is unstoppable, because he isn't. But he hits hard and is bulky.

 

[Raikaria]

If you're going to make a case on Chansey being broken, you make the case by saying it's effects on the metagame. You don't state that case by saying which Pokemon can or cannot beat it.

This, this in buckets and spades.

Let's face it people, we have hardly ever had a defensive suspect. Most of them were insta-banned at the start of Gen 4. Only 1 pokemon has EVER been banned for it's defensive nature, after being a suspect, and that was Cressellia in Gen 4.

And I think no-one can deny that Gen 5 Chansey is a better wall than Gen 4 Cress.

So the question is where do you draw the line?

Personally, I think Chansey crosses it pretty well. She walls literally every special attacker in the game, and most of the UU physical attackers unless they have a massive attack stat, and either Close Combat or something insane like V-Create.

Then, there's the support Chansey gives. Wishing virtually everything in the teir back to 100% is suspect enough as it is. Being able to do it multiple times, while walling at least 3/4's of the teir is pure insanity.

Yes, Chansey has it's counters. But guess what, Shedinja, Gastrodon and Quagsire counter Kyogre. Does that mean it's OU? No.

But let's not look at Chansey in isolation. As I said at the start, its the effects on the metagame it has.

And would you look at that, most of the top pokemon in the teir packed Close Combat or HJK last month. The first commonly seen special attacker wasn't even in the Top 10.

Then you see TWO spinners to the top 10 [Hitmontop and Donphan]. Hmm, didn't a lot of arguments revolve around hazards wearing Chansey down? [Even though it can heal itself back anyway]. Well, I think those two have just blown that argument out of the way.

The effects and centralisation Chansey has on the metagame are virtually undeniable. The fact that anyone can defend something which walls about 90% of the teir and can heal it's teammates to 100% effortlessly is baffleing.

 

[Banedon]

@jamashawalker - I suggest two things:

1. Can you post logs?
2. Can you post your team (so I can steal it and try it)?

I said before that I've been using a team of only special attackers, and I've not had trouble with Chansey. That hasn't changed. If you want to try the team out yourself I'm happy to post it, although I should say it's still a rather crude team at the moment (although still ranked quite highly ...) and I'm thinking of making some deep, fundamental changes that will still keep it a largely special team.

Finally a short note about Xatu vs. Chansey. The idea is not to beat Chansey using Xatu, but to force Chansey to use something other than its status moves. With Xatu in vs. Chansey, Chansey is either going to attack with Seismic Toss or attempt to pass Wish - and that's when Mew, Mismagius, Heracross etc can get in safely.

PS: No, Chansey does not wall every special attacker in the game. Examples - Mismagius and NP Azelf.

 

[Avira]

Chansey does not wall every special attacker in UU. NP Mismagius destroys it entirely. Crocune and Sigilyph beat it eventually. NP Togekiss can also destroy it even without Roost. Boorego used Heal Bell with Nasty Plot, and it's more than enough to wreck Chansey since it won't be getting in enough Seismic Tosses, as Togekiss keeps flinching you, and gets more boosts if you try to use a recovery move. Id didn't use Chansey against that Togekiss, but it's not hard to see why it would lose. Zapdos or another electric type is a much better answer to it. You cannot reasonably deal with those four special attackers by using two other special walls alongside Chansey. Chansey does wall what it walls very well, but if using it leaves you open to other special attackers, I wouldn't consider using it.

 

[Nas]

Chansey does not wall every special attacker in UU. NP Mismagius destroys it entirely. Crocune and Sigilyph beat it eventually. NP Togekiss can also destroy it even without Roost. Boorego used Heal Bell with Nasty Plot, and it's more than enough to wreck Chansey since it won't be getting in enough Seismic Tosses, as Togekiss keeps flinching you, and gets more boosts if you try to use a recovery move. Id didn't use Chansey against that Togekiss, but it's not hard to see why it would lose. Zapdos or another electric type is a much better answer to it. You cannot reasonably deal with those four special attackers by using two other special walls alongside Chansey. Chansey does wall what it walls very well, but if using it leaves you open to other special attackers, I wouldn't consider using it.

Notice how all of the pokemon you mentioned need to boost to +6 to become any kind of threat to Chansey, and also note that they're all handled easily by something as simple as a Haze Milotic.

You're assuming that the Chansey user is going to sit there Seismic Tossing your Suicune while it boosts to +6, but it's not. Chansey will just pass a Wish to something that can easily handle your Suicune, such as Milotic, which you will be unable to stop because you're weak as fuck without 6 turns of setup.

So none of those pokemon can prevent Chansey from supporting her team, how then are they counters?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Thing is, when your physical sweeper has problems with ms. blobby and is prolly averaging 3HKOs(with Staraptor gone only Victini/Arcanine IMO has a real shot of 2HKOing now), you DO know something is wrong.

Tch. Fine. All of us "know" something is wrong. But what is it? What's the problem in Chansey surviving random overpowered physical shit? That's what dori's talking about, the anti-Chansey camp sometimes simply doesn't give any arguments and expect everybody to "know" what's wrong, as if the God of Pokémon (durr Arceus) would come to us in an epiphany and tell us what's broken in the metagame and how to fix it.

If you're going to make a case for Chansey being broken, then do it as Raikaria or FlareBlitz have done, but not merely stating a fact and saying "something is wrong!!!!".

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

Tch. Fine. All of us "know" something is wrong. But what is it? What's the problem in Chansey surviving random overpowered physical shit? That's what dori's talking about, the anti-Chansey camp sometimes simply doesn't give any arguments and expect everybody to "know" what's wrong, as if the God of Pokémon (durr Arceus) would come to us in an epiphany and tell us what's broken in the metagame and how to fix it.

Are you asking for what the anti chansey arguments are? It's only 2HKO'd by the very strongest things in the tier, it can status half your team or heal bell it's own, wish pass to heal half it's team mates and then you're probably down a pokemon or two facing basically a fresh team.

 

[FlareBlitz]

the anti-Chansey camp sometimes simply doesn't give any arguments and expect everybody to "know" what's wrong, as if the God of Pokémon (durr Arceus) would come to us in an epiphany and tell us what's broken in the metagame and how to fix it.

I'm not sure what you guys are expecting. This is what my nomination paragraph for Chansey looked like:

"In general, Chansey's excellent mixed walling capabilities and its myriad of support options are what make it imbalanced. It embodies the very essence of the defensive characteristic, capable of stalling out nearly every special attacker and even a majority of physical attackers with no team support; in fact, it supports its team in turn. Its access to both Toxic and Thunder Wave also makes setting up on it a very risky venture, especially considering that it will easily tank any non-boosted attacks that aren't named Close Combat."

Is that not good enough? Why is saying "staraptor is fast and 2hkos pretty much everything with no team support" any more convincing than "chansey is fat and avoids a 2hko from pretty much everything while being able to greatly support its team"? I've even made several arguments about its ability to utterly crush an offensive team's momentum. If you think our arguments are lacking when people who think Chansey is not imbalanced have basically said things like "yeah it's really hard to kill for 95% of the tier but these handful pokemon can beat it in certain specific circumstances", I would advise you to re-evaluate your appraisal of the situation.