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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

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Notice how all of the pokemon you mentioned need to boost to +6 to become any kind of threat to Chansey, and also note that they're all handled easily by something as simple as a Haze Milotic.

No, Togekiss doesn't need to be at +6 to beat Chansey, and Milotic loses to Missy and Togekiss.

You're assuming that the Chansey user is going to sit there Seismic Tossing your Suicune while it boosts to +6, but it's not. Chansey will just pass a Wish to something that can easily handle your Suicune, such as Milotic, which you will be unable to stop because you're weak as fuck without 6 turns of setup.
Nowhere did I mention that Suicune would try to keep boosting when it is obviously not a good play in the early game. You can switch to something else like Zapdos to keep the momentum.

So none of those pokemon can prevent Chansey from supporting her team, how then are they counters?
Chansey's response to dealing with any of those are predictable and can be exploited to help you gain momentum. And those were just things that outright beat it as special attackers. There are other attackers (Won't enjoy a +3 Tri Attack from Porygon-Z doing 50%, a strong Psyshock from NP Azelf, a Focus Blast from a +2 Zoroark, and strong physical attackers. I didn't mention Celebi as something that outright beats Chansey because it will be leaving the tier soon) as well as support Pokemon like Deoxys-D, Mew, Roserade, Crobat, Shaymin, etc., that Chansey should be wary of staying in against. Ultimately, you are the one the decides what the Chansey can or cannot pass a Wish to. If the Chansey user has a 50% Milotic and it uses Wish as you switch out Nidoking and bring in Zapdos, she you cannot pass a Wish to Milotic now. The same goes for any teammate, as you exploit Chansey's attempts to support the team, and kill the other members by not letting Wish be passed to them through offensive pressure or Taunt.
 
Why is saying "staraptor is fast and 2hkos pretty much everything with no team support" any more convincing than "chansey is fat and avoids a 2hko from pretty much everything while being able to greatly support its team"?
I think there's an important difference in comparing offensive and defensive threats in this way, one that gets obscured by looking at defensive abilities outside the context of a battle. Offensive threats can be better measured by the strength of their attacks in a vacuum because, with the exception of certain status conditions, they always have this power, even at 1 HP (although Staraptor is a bad example, since its strongest attacks also damage it, but for most offensive threats lacking a Life Orb this holds).

Defensive threats, on the other hand, are perpetually losing their equivalent measurement: their bulk. Can Chansey, at 100% health, switch into and wall a great number of physical (and, of course, special) attacks? Yeah, for sure. But how often, in a real battle, is Chansey switching into attacks at 100%? If it's so busy passing wishes or conjuring aromas or trying to spread status, it isn't taking the time to heal splash damage taken from the minor attacks it walls or from entry hazards. This means that the Chansey who is capable of avoiding 2HKOs from pretty much everything is, in fact, rarely seen. Lacking Leftovers and even more immediate recovery in Softboiled, Chansey has to be played very conservatively to maintain its impressive bulk. And if that's the case, it isn't supporting its team to the extent that some players claim is banworthy.
 
I'm not sure what you guys are expecting. This is what my nomination paragraph for Chansey looked like:

(...)

Is that not good enough? Why is saying "staraptor is fast and 2hkos pretty much everything with no team support" any more convincing than "chansey is fat and avoids a 2hko from pretty much everything while being able to greatly support its team"? I've even made several arguments about its ability to utterly crush an offensive team's momentum. If you think our arguments are lacking when people who think Chansey is not imbalanced have basically said things like "yeah it's really hard to kill for 95% of the tier but these handful pokemon can beat it in certain specific circumstances", I would advise you to re-evaluate your appraisal of the situation.

No, I agree with your view on Chansey; my post was about arguments such as TM13's, in which they merely say "Chansey walls shit, something is wrong" and think it's enough.

and I don't say anything about the poor arguments of some pro-Chansey people because I want them to look bad in comparison
 
If you're going to make a case on Chansey being broken, you make the case by saying it's effects on the metagame. You don't state that case by saying which Pokemon can or cannot beat it.

For example, I'm sure there's probably a few things that can switch into Kyogre and Deoxys and such, but everyone can clearly that they are unhealthy for the metagame.
(I'm not advocating for any retiering of any Pokemon ala JTSwift in case anyone wanders off topic with this comment.)

If Chansey is broken, say how it causes you to use X strategy and that you're not allowed to use Y strategy because the only reason why anyone ever refutes Chansey being broken is most likely due to the inability of those who want to ban Chansey to logically explain why it is broken.

I mean, no one here has actually said that Chansey -isn't annoying- at the very least. It's quite in universal agreement. But just because Chansey can throw around status does NOT make it ban worthy. "Oh Cresselia can Thunder Wave, Toxic, AND Psycho Shifts burns yeah it lives forever!!!!!! Oh Clefable is always immune to hazards and can Wish and can Thunder Wave and can Toxic oh my god it can set up a sweep too!!!!!"

See? This gets messy very quickly.

I'm sorry I didnt state the obvious, The difference between chansey and all those other walls is her massive bulk...lol which is why she is banworthy in the first place...Massive bulk that is uncomparable by ANY UU poke, massive wishes which can 100% heal any poke, status moves, the ability Natural Cure, and a list of support options...And i did state chansey's effectiveness and how she makes a changes within the metagame..people resort to limited amount of special attackers becasue of her, or jsut dont use special attacking sweepers at all without 2 more pokes to get past chansey with..And it is different than saying "well everything needs their counters gone to sweep" but chansey widens that list of pokes...idk if you were attacking chansey or just the way because i didnt reiterate information that has been said over and over again?

@jamashawalker - I suggest two things:

1. Can you post logs?
2. Can you post your team (so I can steal it and try it)?

I said before that I've been using a team of only special attackers, and I've not had trouble with Chansey. That hasn't changed. If you want to try the team out yourself I'm happy to post it, although I should say it's still a rather crude team at the moment (although still ranked quite highly ...) and I'm thinking of making some deep, fundamental changes that will still keep it a largely special team.

Finally a short note about Xatu vs. Chansey. The idea is not to beat Chansey using Xatu, but to force Chansey to use something other than its status moves. With Xatu in vs. Chansey, Chansey is either going to attack with Seismic Toss or attempt to pass Wish - and that's when Mew, Mismagius, Heracross etc can get in safely.

PS: No, Chansey does not wall every special attacker in the game. Examples - Mismagius and NP Azelf.

I would be happy to do both :)

And towards Xatu, Are you talking about while chansey is in the process of doing wish or after she wished to an opponent...Tell which situation is correct?

-Chansey switches in on "special attacker"
-Special attacker switches out to Xatu, Chansey uses wish

or is it?

-Chasney switches in on "special attacker"
-Special attacker switches out to xatu, Chansey uses Toxic, toxic is reflected back
-Xatu switches out to counter, Chansey uses wish

either scenario it seems like chansey will have the upperhand because now she can wish to an appriorite counter, now the moment is definitely on chansey's side

I agree that she doesnt wall every special attacker, but she sure does wall a shit ton else+physical attackers..

EDIT: so far this UU has turned into alot like what happened back in Gen 4 when cresselia was on the suspect list..everyone was running haze/taunt/absol/houndoom to stop cresselia, now people are running chansey counters with mismagius, trick, roserade, everywhere lol ive ran into soo many games with them
 
I'll go first then. Here's the team I've been using (as of now, ranked 61 on Smogon ladder). It's rather deeply flawed though and I haven't been able to play much, so no logs yet:

Venomoth (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Shield Dust
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Bug Buzz
- Sleep Powder
- Quiver Dance
- Baton Pass

Azelf @ Lum Berry
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Psyshock
- Substitute
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt

Porygon-Z @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Adaptability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Tri Attack
- Trick
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Dark Pulse

Registeel @ Leftovers
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
- Seismic Toss
- Iron Head

Mew @ Light Clay
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- U-turn
- Taunt

Milotic (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spd
Hardy Nature
- Ice Beam
- Haze
- Scald
- Recover

Venomoth's supposed to have Tinted Lens instead of Shield Dust but I only realized that when it didn't flinch to an Ambipom Fake Out to Baton Pass successfully, so I haven't changed it since @_@ Azelf is the primary pass target and has Substitute to dodge Sucker Punch. The team's not very reliable at the moment: it lacks a good lead and I often have to initiate a sweep before getting up Stealth Rock, which immediately leaves me vulnerable to Sturdy Donphan.

Chansey dies to Azelf's +2 Psyshock and Porygon-Z's Trick. Venomoth doesn't care and keeps boosting, Mew doesn't care either and sets up, while Registeel and Milotic aren't much affected since they're defensive Pokemon. I have (of course) lost games with this team, but it wasn't because of Chansey. In fact if my memory serves every game I've faced a Chansey I've won.

As for Xatu, the first case is obviously less ideal than the second. But it's still murky in both cases. Xatu can use its own status moves in the first; it does learn both TWave and Toxic. Xatu also gets U-turn, and it can use it in the second case to get some damage on Chansey as it uses Wish, which (together with the reflected Toxic) aids in wearing it down. After all, with a counter now in, can Chansey stay in to heal itself? The counter also gets one turn to do something, so a Pokemon like Rhyperior can set up a Sub safely.

And lol yeah I saw a CM Sub Leech Seed Psychic Celebi yesterday, was obviously built to take down Chansey. I do wonder how much of that set came about because of desperation, and how much because of hype though ...

EDIT: Wtf Milotic is also Hardy !? ~_~
 
Alright everyone, let's see..

Let's say we ban Chansey.

This increases the usage of Special Attackers. Yanmega will get more love, Raikou will get more love, and in conjunction, Registeel and Umbreon will get more love.

The metagame will be constantly changing and freeflowing, and that seems to be the ideal goal.

But would you rather abuse a predictable metagame and always consistently owning it, or would you rather keep having to adapt to the ever-changing metagame?

If Chansey stays, people will almost always keep using physical based teams, and they will almost always beat these bulky wall-filled, Chansey supporting teams. And you'll still do well against most other teams.

If Chansey is gone, you're always open to team match up once again, because people will be more inclined to use rarely seen things now that could just totally ravage you.

So I was wondering if you would always rather always have good results in a predictable metagame or unpredictable results in an unpredictable metagame? Don't be afraid to admit that you'd rather always be good rather than be challenged, cause the whole purpose of us being here is to be the best. Anything else said is a lie.
 
No offense dori but that's a very weak argument. Overly powerful Pokemon need to be booted, and the metagame adapt without them. I think I speak for most people that I'd rather player an unpredictable metagame where there's no Deoxys-A in UU than to play one where everyone uses Deoxys-A.

Here's something more about Xatu vs. Chansey. Suppose SR is up on both sides, and Chansey is at 100%. Player A has Porygon-Z (active), Rhyperior (say) and Xatu. Player B has 252/252+ Bold Chansey (100% health) and a Rhyperior counter (also 100% health).

Porygon-Z is in. Player B switches Chansey in. This is a natural move, because Porygon-Z is a Pokemon Chansey is meant to wall. Porygon-Z uses Tri Attack, dealing ~18% damage which, with SR, totals 30%. Chansey is at 70% health.

Player B uses Toxic, player A switches Xatu in. Toxic gets reflected; Chansey loses another 6.25% health. Xatu loses 25% from SR and recovers 6.25% from Leftovers.

Player B uses Wish, player A uses U-turn to Rhyperior. Chansey takes ~8% from the minimum Attack Xatu U-turn, and another 12.5% from Toxic. This puts it at under 50%.

Rhyperior is going to Sub. What is Chansey going to do now? It could stay in and heal, except Rhyperior will be behind a Sub and a Focus Punch (or similar) could be headed in its way. It could switch out, but then it would be under 50% and cannot wall Porygon-Z the next time. It doesn't have to be Rhyperior that comes in; it could be Heracross knowing that it will not get status'ed and threaten a Close Combat. Xatu has accomplished its purpose. I don't see how it doesn't at least check Chansey.
 
I was just asking a question of what most people would want personally...I wasn't arguing for anything. It seems as if people just want to assume everything's an argument when it only shows how ignorant they are assuming it was an argument in the first place.

I would personally rather be good at a predictable metagame than to be questionable in an unpredictable one. That is my preference.

And it's hard to assume there's Stealth Rock on both side if someone is using a Xatu. The whole point to use Xatu is to prevent Stealth Rock in the first place. Among common things to use Stealth Rock would probably have been Chansey or Registeel, 2 things Xatu don't entirely mind switching to. If you had a case of offensive Empoleon or Rhyperior setting Stealth Rock, then you have a realistic scenario. Otherwise, no deuce.
 
Here is my stall team..made it to #1 first try, but then fell to #9 with some losses from hax..not like it matters right now anyways

Roserade (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Giga Drain
- Spikes
- Aromatherapy
- Shadow Ball

Nidoqueen (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Earth Power
- Toxic Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Hitmontop (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Rapid Spin
- Foresight

Dusclops (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Curse
- Rest
- Night Shade
- Will-O-Wisp

Mew @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Trick
- Roar
- Roost
- Psychic

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Seismic Toss

Chansey has proven amazing for me on this team...it pretty much does what we've all been hyping about over these past few pages of post haha..stops, walls, and supports the whole team..I had to make a few changes to this team..as you can probably tell from first glance it is horribly weak to taunt mew and taunt crobat, thats why i have mew to trick a choice scarf onto them...Anyways to stay on point with chansey, all of chansey's "counters and set up" pokes are countered by this team..the only ones that really threaten are the ones that i listed earlier, celebi, chestorest kingdra, roserade, and if mismagius and mew avoid status...

I am not going as far to say that this is the perfect strategy/stall team, because it has its share of weaknesses, nor to make a RMT right now, but to show how the power behind chansey because she's been an extremely hard egg to crack on this team(pun intended)
 
I was just asking a question of what most people would want personally...I wasn't arguing for anything. It seems as if people just want to assume everything's an argument when it only shows how ignorant they are assuming it was an argument in the first place.

I would personally rather be good at a predictable metagame than to be questionable in an unpredictable one. That is my preference.

Then why don't you play 4th gen?

What you wrote last post - call it "argument" or "bunch of words" or whatever you want - applies to every Pokemon. In other words, it is just meaningless. What happens to the metagame if Chansey is banned (maybe Aura Sphere Raikou will run wild, etc) is for the metagame to figure out afterwards, and no argument against banning Chansey itself.

@jamashawalker - I'll give your team a try. After the first few games though I can safely say I suck at playing stall. Like, I understand the ideas, but I keep making stupid moves (like losing Roserade and then getting hazards spun ...). I've also encountered a few weaknesses. The team doesn't have a Fire resistance, meaning Arcanine is hard to stop. CB Crobat with Brave Bird also ploughed through the team once, painful.

EDIT: OK, after trying it for several games Chansey has been pulling its weight but I hardly feel it's overpowered. I switch it into special attackers without thinking twice most of the time and it does well in that respect, but my opponents always go to a counter quickly and Chansey gets worn down. It can't stay in to heal itself; there're plenty of attacks that will 2HKO it (such as LO Honchkrow's Brave Bird). So at best it gets to pass Wish to a counter-to-the-counter, which works fine enough but leaves Chansey worn down fast.

I could post some logs, but as of now I still don't think Chansey is BL.
 
I'm on the fence about whether Chancey is broken or not.

On one side Chancey walls pretty much every special attacker but a few can get past it and the other Chancey can get easily beaten through Offensive Teams and Chancey will get beaten down pretty quickly because it's so focused on helping it's team that it itself gets worn down pretty quickly. However defensive teams will have a bit more trouble with it because they don't have as much power and Chancey can wall even longer and support it's team more. (It won't like toxic spikes but they aren't too hard to get rid of.)

Personally I think Chancey is BL worthy simply because it makes a lot of teams have to run physical attackers with fighting moves or incredibly powerful special attackers. It can easily come in on a special attacker and paralyze whatever "counter" they try to switch in. (Ground types excluded and guts pokemon excluded) And then after that as long as they don't have enough fire power to OHKO (and barley enough power to 2HKO it)you Chancey could easily heal itself until you fail to hit it and then switch out to the teamate who needs the health and still have quite a bit of health left. Chancey DOES need quite a bit of support to be useful itself such as rapid spinners (since entry hazards will really wear it down) and something that could weaken the physical attackers so Chancey walls easier. Dusclops is a good partner with Chancey because it can use will-o-wisp on those physical attackers and it will defenitley enjoy being fully healed by those wishes.

I'm still debating to myself whether it truly is BL worthy though. It has amazing support options and is a great wall but how well can it really do that without a lot of support? I need to test out Chancey more. (And I find Thunder wave to be more useful then Toxic on Chancey because it takes a while for that toxic damage to really rack up and being faster then that...let's say Crobat is really useful.)

Also Venomoth is very underrated...it's so easy to get to +2 with it and pass it to like an Azelf and sweep. It also loves Chancey's because it can make them fall asleep, get to +1, when they switch out they're cured of the sleep status. After that you make that pokemon fall asleep use quiver dance then pass it to whoever you want. (And if you're worried to something like Chancey walling you, you could always pass it to something that'll just enjoy the +2 speed and +2 special defense or a really powerful special attacker like Adaptability Porygon-Z/Psyshock Azelf.)
 
The main problem with Chansey, in my opinion, is the strain it puts on teambuilding. As of right now, you have to carry two things in your team: something to set up on Chansey early game (such as Roserade), and something that can actually kill it late-game (which would usually not be a big deal, but since there's only like 5 pokemon that can actually break through it...), since its probably going to stick around the entire damn game. Thats in addition to your own Chansey, which you should really be running simply because its too good not to. That alone is one third to half your team dedicated to a single pokemon. I believe that kind of over-centalization is simply unhealthy for the metagame.

Anther thing is that people keep looking at Chansey as if it was supposed to "sweep" when that's not the role its playing. Its simply spreading status around and healing when it needs to - as long as you don't play carelessly Chansey should really be sticking around till the end of the game, since it takes like 10% from most Special Attacks.

But well, I've been playing UU without Chansey around for the past like 4/5 months, so I might be biased. All I know is that the meta became a lot more diverse once we banned Chansey on PO.
 
@jamashawalker - I'll give your team a try. After the first few games though I can safely say I suck at playing stall. Like, I understand the ideas, but I keep making stupid moves (like losing Roserade and then getting hazards spun ...). I've also encountered a few weaknesses. The team doesn't have a Fire resistance, meaning Arcanine is hard to stop. CB Crobat with Brave Bird also ploughed through the team once, painful.

EDIT: OK, after trying it for several games Chansey has been pulling its weight but I hardly feel it's overpowered. I switch it into special attackers without thinking twice most of the time and it does well in that respect, but my opponents always go to a counter quickly and Chansey gets worn down. It can't stay in to heal itself; there're plenty of attacks that will 2HKO it (such as LO Honchkrow's Brave Bird). So at best it gets to pass Wish to a counter-to-the-counter, which works fine enough but leaves Chansey worn down fast.

I could post some logs, but as of now I still don't think Chansey is BL.

thats kinda the problem with this metagame right now..right now people are utilizing two or more counters/ ways to deal with chansey that its turning into alot like what happened with espeon and staraptor..Espeon had people run haze on a whole bunch of random pokes, and staraptor had people run 2 or more priority users or just rhyperior...now people are choosing to run just an all physical team with support or two pokes that can safely counter chansey..i mean i would love to just build a team and not think about adding to pokes to beat chansey so i can use my special sweeper
 
Chansey does not wall every special attacker in UU. NP Mismagius destroys it entirely. Crocune and Sigilyph beat it eventually. NP Togekiss can also destroy it even without Roost. Boorego used Heal Bell with Nasty Plot, and it's more than enough to wreck Chansey since it won't be getting in enough Seismic Tosses, as Togekiss keeps flinching you, and gets more boosts if you try to use a recovery move. Id didn't use Chansey against that Togekiss, but it's not hard to see why it would lose. Zapdos or another electric type is a much better answer to it. You cannot reasonably deal with those four special attackers by using two other special walls alongside Chansey. Chansey does wall what it walls very well, but if using it leaves you open to other special attackers, I wouldn't consider using it.

NP Mismagius dosen't like a possible Toxic or Thunder Wave, the former limiting it's sweeping [Especially as it has to get to +6 in the first place], and the latter making it rediculously easy to be killed by anything that isn't Chansey.

NP Togekiss is a similar case, Thunder Wave makes it lose to Chansey outright [It can't Flinch it to death anymore] and Toxic is a similar case, due to it either needing to set up, or needing time to flinch it to death. 3 S-Tosses will also finish NP Togekiss without Roost, if Rocks are up.

As for the Heal Bell Togekiss mentioned before, if Chansey gets a T-Wave off, Togekiss has to waste time Heal Belling, during which Chansey can either Toss or Wish... or use that chance to switch to something that can beat Togekiss, such as the aformentioned Zapdos.

Remember, I'm saying you need to look at the bigger picture for Chansey. Don't just look at Chansey and what beats it 1 on 1. Chansey has FIVE TEAMMATES, all of which can effortlessly plug up the few holes that it can leave open, and Chansey can heal them up later in the game, just in case your Chansey check switches out of them. Zapdos dosen't care about SR so much when switching into Togekiss, when Chansey's wishes are giving him 75%+ HP at the end of the turn.

The teammates support Chansey by beating -Insert Fighting Type Here- and Chansey supports them with obscene Wishes.

... And, to be honest, Zapdos + Chansey walls basically everything but Mismagius, who can be handled by throwing something like Bisharp into the mix. Just to illustrate how easy it is to plug the holes Chansey leaves open.

The only saving grace about Chansey is that it's such a dead stop to Special Sweepers that if you can catch it, and defeat it [Something like Physical Mew might work for the surprise factor, especially if it has Cheer Up to set up and still make Special Offense Possible, or maybe cripple it with Psyshock Alakazam], then there won't be anything left to stop your Special Sweeper, because 99% of the teams only use Chansey to stop special attackers.

Although can you blame them?

EDIT: I forgot Missy often runs sub when I posted this earlier, however, the point still stands upon switching in, and, as Sub Missy is somewhat common, a Missy check can switch in as Missy Subs, so all of which Missy acheives in the end is forceing Chansey out, possibly passing a Wish, while Missy loses 25% of it's HP, more with SR, and may have been statused on the switch.

Although, admittedly, not a lot can stop Shadow Ball + HP Fighting, but Zapdos does a rather good job at that anyway, as it can easily tank Shadow Ball at +0 [With the situation being that Missy subbed on the switch], and if Missy dosen't have a sub, won't like Thunderbolt.
 
thats kinda the problem with this metagame right now..right now people are utilizing two or more counters/ ways to deal with chansey that its turning into alot like what happened with espeon and staraptor..Espeon had people run haze on a whole bunch of random pokes, and staraptor had people run 2 or more priority users or just rhyperior...now people are choosing to run just an all physical team with support or two pokes that can safely counter chansey..i mean i would love to just build a team and not think about adding to pokes to beat chansey so i can use my special sweeper

If your point is that Chansey is beatable but takes a lot (too much) of preparation then ... I can't argue against that. It's subjective. I can't argue against "builds get a lot more diverse with Chansey banned" either. Although I think there're more than enough ways to beat Chansey at the moment, there are also tons of people who don't seem to know how. And I don't know if it's just me, but it seems players either leave themselves completely walled by Chansey, or go paranoid and run a fully physical team.

I guess what's left is subjective, and whoever can pass the voting reqs should be able to vote whichever way he wants to.
 
If your point is that Chansey is beatable but takes a lot (too much) of preparation then ... I can't argue against that. It's subjective. I can't argue against "builds get a lot more diverse with Chansey banned" either. Although I think there're more than enough ways to beat Chansey at the moment, there are also tons of people who don't seem to know how. And I don't know if it's just me, but it seems players either leave themselves completely walled by Chansey, or go paranoid and run a fully physical team.

I guess what's left is subjective, and whoever can pass the voting reqs should be able to vote whichever way he wants to.

Yes, there are ways to deal with Chansey.

Knock Off is possibly the most reliant.. but is pretty bad outside of Chansey.

Trick users are seen a mile away.

Taunters can rarely break Chansey, and those that can will promptly be switched out of as soon as they rear their faces.

Close Combat is as blatently obvious as V-Create from Victini unde the Sun was. As are physical attackers who use something like Swords Dance.

Stalling Chansey won't work unless it's a last pokemon scenario.

And the few special attackers that can set up on Chansey, are promptly handled by something like Zapdos.

Honestly, I think Cheer Up Mew might be the #1 Chansey lure. Mews are so often specially based, and people will think 'Why wouldn't he use SD if he was physical?'. That way, you can use MixMew, and lure Chansey at the same time.

That said, Mew is a lure for... anything. And Special Mews might use Calm Mind more often anyway...

... Of course, MixMew is just theorymon right now, I've not actually played UU since the servers went back up, because I'm not sure if the ladder was reset/updated since the Staraptor ban, due to the server issues, and I've also been busy.
 
Yes, there are ways to deal with Chansey.


Honestly, I think Cheer Up Mew might be the #1 Chansey lure. Mews are so often specially based, and people will think 'Why wouldn't he use SD if he was physical?'. That way, you can use MixMew, and lure Chansey at the same time.

That said, Mew is a lure for... anything. And Special Mews might use Calm Mind more often anyway...

... Of course, MixMew is just theorymon right now, I've not actually played UU since the servers went back up, because I'm not sure if the ladder was reset/updated since the Staraptor ban, due to the server issues, and I've also been busy.

CM Psystrike Mew, anyone??
 
Mew dosen't get Psystrike. Psystrike is an exclusive move for Mewtwo.

However, I DID miss that Mew got Nasty Plot as a level-up move. I always overlook Mew's smallest movepool. Hence, using Cheer Up telegraphs a mixed set, and hence, wouldn't work.

Still, NP + Taunt [Or, even better, a 101 Sub, but that means Mew has to forgo Speed or Sp.Attack] + Psyshock Mew beats Chansey pretty well.

--------

Thing about this phase of the suspect test is because Chansey is auto-suspect, the metagame is going to over-prepare for it. Even the most broken thing, such as Kyogre, could appear balanced when every team uses Quagsire or Gastrodon or Shedinja.

Not to mention because Chansey is apparently nearly broken, it's useage will spike. See Thunderus and Staraptor.

So, as a result, the people who will be able to vote will be those who can overcome Chansey... which will result in a pool of voters who can handle Chansey. That's the problem I have with automatic suspects.

------

However, despite my Anti-Chansey Rhetoric, and my worries about the inevitable centralisation the auto-suspect status will cause around Chansey, I'm far from decided about it's fate. After all, as you've seen in my posts above I've been attempting to come up with checks for Chansey, while also looking at ways to stop those counters. Mainly because a Defense/Support Suspect like Chansey should not be looked at in a 1v1 situation, but a 6v6 situation. I know the characteristics do not exist in Gen 5, but you'd have to be mad if you claimed Chansey was an offensive threat.

As for Subpunch Golurk... it was one of the major things that irritated me when I used Chansey, although most of the users had great team support for it. Still, Golurk had better be weary of full stall teams, because they are very likly to carry a spinblocker, such as Dusclops/Noir [Who can tank Golurk's FP, then take it's sub out while it uses Shadow Punch], and Spikes, which Golurk dislikes immensely. [3 layers means Golurk will lose 50% of his HP to set up a sub, and Rocks/T-Spikes in addittion will make it impossible to repeat if Golurk lacks Lefties for some reason]

It is something that causes issues for the Chansey + Zapdos core, however, if only minor ones [Zapdos won't like taking Shadow Punches, and may struggle with the sub due to the Electric Immunity, however, Golurk is out of luck if Zapdos is carrying Roar]
 
Round 2 is over and the server is back again, shouldn't this thread be locked by now? p_p

Scripts for what's banned and what's not haven't been updated yet, so we can still talk about what's new in the suspect test.

That's kind of why I've been seeing Speed Boost Blaziken in OU...

P.S. That's not how you guys use a Nasty Plot Togekiss.
 
Mew dosen't get Psystrike. Psystrike is an exclusive move for Mewtwo.

However, I DID miss that Mew got Nasty Plot as a level-up move. I always overlook Mew's smallest movepool. Hence, using Cheer Up telegraphs a mixed set, and hence, wouldn't work.

Still, NP + Taunt [Or, even better, a 101 Sub, but that means Mew has to forgo Speed or Sp.Attack] + Psyshock Mew beats Chansey pretty well.

--------

Thing about this phase of the suspect test is because Chansey is auto-suspect, the metagame is going to over-prepare for it. Even the most broken thing, such as Kyogre, could appear balanced when every team uses Quagsire or Gastrodon or Shedinja.

Not to mention because Chansey is apparently nearly broken, it's useage will spike. See Thunderus and Staraptor.

So, as a result, the people who will be able to vote will be those who can overcome Chansey... which will result in a pool of voters who can handle Chansey. That's the problem I have with automatic suspects.

------

However, despite my Anti-Chansey Rhetoric, and my worries about the inevitable centralisation the auto-suspect status will cause around Chansey, I'm far from decided about it's fate. After all, as you've seen in my posts above I've been attempting to come up with checks for Chansey, while also looking at ways to stop those counters. Mainly because a Defense/Support Suspect like Chansey should not be looked at in a 1v1 situation, but a 6v6 situation. I know the characteristics do not exist in Gen 5, but you'd have to be mad if you claimed Chansey was an offensive threat.

As for Subpunch Golurk... it was one of the major things that irritated me when I used Chansey, although most of the users had great team support for it. Still, Golurk had better be weary of full stall teams, because they are very likly to carry a spinblocker, such as Dusclops/Noir [Who can tank Golurk's FP, then take it's sub out while it uses Shadow Punch], and Spikes, which Golurk dislikes immensely. [3 layers means Golurk will lose 50% of his HP to set up a sub, and Rocks/T-Spikes in addittion will make it impossible to repeat if Golurk lacks Lefties for some reason]

It is something that causes issues for the Chansey + Zapdos core, however, if only minor ones [Zapdos won't like taking Shadow Punches, and may struggle with the sub due to the Electric Immunity, however, Golurk is out of luck if Zapdos is carrying Roar]

I'm sorry but most of this post is just silly.

Firstly, you do not need all these wacky combos for mew to beat chansey, simply have taunt + roost and you beat it.

Secondly, no it wouldn't. There are plently of sets that kyogre can run to beat gastrodon / quagsire (subcm, any set with rest + coverage move) and shedinja is just not something you use in competitive arguments. Latios was an auto suspect in one of the rounds and I think it's usage even went down the next round while it get voted ou. Your part saying the voters are going to be the ones who can beat chansey also doesn't make sense as if it were the case, staraptor would still be uu.

Your Golurk post is just irrational as no competent player would just "let" you get up 3 layers of spikes and shadow punch does a lot to duskinoir which will either cause it to use rest and take a beating or outright die. Golurk also often runs stone edge over earthquake so so don't think zapdos is just roaring away for free.

.
 
@Raikaria - There are plenty of ways to deal with Chansey, many of which already stated earlier in the thread. My all-special team (well, with a few U-turn users) is still doing great on the ladder, rank #6 at the moment even ... Chansey can be dealt with. Whether or not it restricts the metagame (too much) though is up to personal judgement.

Some thoughts on the metagame:

Venomoth is extremely deadly. reachzero was right about it in his nomination; it deserves a closer look. The only thing bad about it is its unreliability. Sleep Powder does have 75% accuracy only, and sleep can last one turn. You can even sleep someone (with a phazing move, e.g. Empoleon) but since Empoleon's slower than Venomoth, he wakes up in time to Roar before Venomoth can BP anything substantial, or even a single Quiver Dance boost. You take hazard damage etc. Painful. But when it works, Venomoth is absolutely deadly.

Raikou is rather rare at the moment, perhaps because of Chansey. A shame, because it's a formidable Pokemon, and something I'd consider using even in the face of Chansey. The server allows Timid Aura Sphere Raikous, is a bug probably ... but still non-LO Raikou needs to boost to +4 to 2HKO Eviolite Chansey with Aura Sphere, which sucks.

Xatu's ability is absolutely awesome. It's a pity it dies so fast to anything that can actually hit it. I think a min SpA Roserade's Sludge Bomb did more than enough to 2HKO my Xatu, not to mention Magic Bounce doesn't reflect Sludge Bomb's poison @_@

Surprisingly I haven't seen much of Victini. I've yet to use it much myself, but it's a good Pokemon (it has the stats and the movepool and it was suspect last round) so where have all the Victini users gone?

Roserade appears to be (with no firm statistics) the most common Pokemon in the metagame at the moment. It sure has a lot going for it. Even unboosted its attacks are pretty strong, and it gets both Spikes and Toxic Spikes and the ability to absord TSpikes. Newly-buffed Giga Drain pwns too. Rather strange though how 5th gen Roserades don't seem to use Sleep Powder much.

Zoroark is funky. I wonder what the best way to deal with it is. I've switched Registeel into a Zoroark masquerading as Mismagius before, and then die to Flamethrower ... rather dislike this Pokemon, the deception is evil.

Defending against the metagame as a whole seems really difficult without committing multiple Pokemon. Like, back in 4th gen you could cover many threats with just Registeel + Milotic. This gen though is much more difficult. Hm ...

EDIT: Servers down again ...
 
Zoroark is funky. I wonder what the best way to deal with it is. I've switched Registeel into a Zoroark masquerading as Mismagius before, and then die to Flamethrower ... rather dislike this Pokemon, the deception is evil.

I love Zoroark. You would be amazed at what it can do, even with team preview. 105 Attack/Special Aattack is pretty good. But anything that can take a hit and has a decent neutral/SE STAB will seriously maim/kill it. Chansey walls the special set from here too the moon and back @_@. I'm not sure what others run but resisting dark pulse/extransenory/flamethrower is usually a good option.
Putting spikes down will help (It therefore cannot masquerade as a levitating pokemon, for it will be hit by spikes) Watching SR damage, again helps. Identifying it before it acts is the best defence, furthermore common sense would also help. If someone just switched an 'arcanine' into your slowbro, then yeah go figure haha.
 
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