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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

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To me the crappy "collateral damage" pokes who suffer in a Snow Cloak / Sand Veil ban don't matter at all. We've pretty much covered that Snow Cloak is not broken on just anything; if we are banning it, it is due to the uncompetitive nature of evasion abilities.

Something that would be shitty becoming viable is just as uncompetitive as something that would be viable becoming broken. In both cases we are talking about a crucial miss doing damage to your team. I don't care whether it's a little advantage or a big one, I shouldn't have to concede an advantage because of some passive field effect that might give my opponent a free turn. There's absolutely no reason that Beartic should be getting free substitutes on a 20% per turn basis. If I lose a battle because Beartic dodged a Flash Cannon or something, that's fucking stupid, even if it was only a minor bit of damage that tipped the scales in my opponent's favor.

Just for shits here's a list of all pokemon who would be affected by a Snow Cloak / Sand Veil ban:

Sand Veil:

Cacturne: Water Veil isn't out but it will be good on it. Use Shiftry :D
Dugtrio: When I'm finished laughing I will scold you for how uncompetitive Sand Veil Duggy is
Garchomp: Sucks to be you. Rough Skin will be sick, though.
Gligar: Use Hyper Cutter.
Gliscor: Use Hyper Cutter or Poison Heal.
Sandslash: Nobody wants to use Sandslash until Sand Rush comes out on it anyway. Claydol is better in RU.

and DWers

Donphan: Why wouldn't you use Sturdy?
Golem: Why wouldn't you use Sturdy? (or Rhyperior)
Stunfisk: Static is his big gimmick. Use it instead.

Snow Cloak

Beartic: fuck Beartic
Froslass: fuck Froslass (ok losing this would be a bummer but don't blame me I support combo bans :D)
Glaceon: Ice Body is a great ability for Glaceon
Mamoswine: Use Oblivious or Thick Fat

and DWers

Articuno: If you want to save evasion abilities because repeatedly pressing Substitute is your favorite strategy ever, then you'll be glad to know that Pressure Articuno can use that strategy just fine.

@Winston Shnozwick: Not only what you said, but it's important to distinguish a passive ability from something within a player's control. You can avoid switching in pokemon who can't take a burn against Scald. You can avoid a situation where you must repeatedly use Focus Blast against a faster pokemon using Substitute. There's no avoiding Evasion modifiers (except for 60 BP moves and special support moves that nothing can afford to run)
 
@ Pocket - Please leave garchomp out of this. He was an offensive power, while froslass is a support/annoyer power. They cannot be compared. And garchomp out of sand still was insanely powerful, but that's neither here nor there to discuss.

To me the crappy "collateral damage" pokes who suffer in a Snow Cloak / Sand Veil ban don't matter at all. We've pretty much covered that Snow Cloak is not broken on just anything; if we are banning it, it is due to the uncompetitive nature of evasion abilities.

Something that would be shitty becoming viable is just as uncompetitive as something that would be viable becoming broken. In both cases we are talking about a crucial miss doing damage to your team. I don't care whether it's a little advantage or a big one, I shouldn't have to concede an advantage because of some passive field effect that might give my opponent a free turn. There's absolutely no reason that Beartic should be getting free substitutes on a 20% per turn basis. If I lose a battle because Beartic dodged a Flash Cannon or something, that's fucking stupid, even if it was only a minor bit of damage that tipped the scales in my opponent's favor.
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Thank you scoopapa, I was trying to say exactly this when I spoke about why snow cloak should be banned in my post before. I just couldnt put it in the right words. Essentially, hax as high as 20% for free is just uncompetitive. Any miss from that is a bad turn. I don't 'expect' hax to happen to me unless it is higher than 30%. I go by the 30% rule, with scald burn and abilities like shed skin/cursed body this gen, they happen often, and I consider that the threshold for hax. Anything below 30% chance IMO is hax when it happens. Crits are hax, yes, but we can't change that. But a 20% chance is hax and we can deal with it.
 
lol, but Garchomp is the PERFECT example to this case. A Pokemon that was banished from its original tier due to weather evasion. Without it, it's clearly OU. How can you NOT make the connection (unless you're being stupidly stubborn, because you can't refute my argument).

If you guys can't handle a 20% miss from a crappy Pokemon like Beartic, then I don't know what to say, I'm sorry.

20% evasion seems like an insurmountable challenge to you players, because you've been traumatized by a little encounter with Froslass.

Have you FACED a Beartic, or other Snow Cloakers / Sand Veilers? Have they consistently haxed their way to victory?

Sand Veil Gliscor in OU is viable, but by no means hard to deal with. 20% hax rarely gives them any key chances to set up and sweep entire teams. Yes you may get maimed by a miss, but you need to realize that they are using a SNOW CLOAK BEARTIC in a team slot that could've been used for a much more consistent player. The crappiness of Beartic / SV Gliscor essentially nullifies whatever advantage you may have gotten by this 20% evasion that you guys are crying over.

Please don't blow Snow Cloak / Sand Veil evasion out of proportion. Evasion Clause is a ban on stackable Evasion-Inducing moves. You can't stack Snow Cloak / Sand Veil evasion. It's topped at 20% Evasion. Again, if you can't deal with a 20% Evasion on a handful of crappy Pokemon (with exceptions, such as Garchomp), then I don't know why you're even playing Pokemon.

Why is Froslass so hard to let go?
 
Godsend said:
Froslass is no where near broken outside of Hail. It's got speed, Spikes, and ghost typing. That's it.
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That's true.

However, it is broken when Hail is active.
And the tier of a Pokemon has always been about the most effective set.

Since the most effective set requires Hail support that is the set that should determine Froslass's tier placement.

A/N
This is not an argument to support the ban of Froslass nor is it an argument against the ban of Froslass. It is merely a reminder that the argument of Froslass's tier should not be decided because some portion of its playability is not broken.
 
Pocket, you're misunderstanding or not listening to them.

I've talked to quite a few people and Garchomp was not being banned purely for Sand Veil, it's because of its overall power even without Sand Veil....then with Sand Veil added on it's pushed over the top. Last gen we had a very similar situation with Froslass. It was really fucking great at everything it did, almost too good. With hail around it just pushed it over the edge. However this gen, Froslass is NOT as good. Garchomp of Gen 5 and Froslass of Gen 4 makes a more realistic comparison, but Gen 5 Froslass does not belong with those two examples. There is unanimous agreement that Froslass is not broken, too good, or even "great" out of hail.

It is not about beating a Beartic with 20% Evasion. It's the fact that nothing should get said Evasion when it was deemed uncompetitive. Not that I'm 100% for or against this blanket ban, it is the only thing that bans unhealthy Pokemon that - for the most part - keeps others in the game.

EDIT: @ Above

The "ban based on best set" is not the same argument in this case - the hail set isn't really a "set" like CM Raikou vs Specs Raikou or something. It's a situation. We don't follow the same logic in "banning the set in the best possible situation" because then we could ban anything for being in a good situation.

In any event, I'd rather just ban Snow Warning or Abomasnow altogether. If we stop looking at the symptoms and focus on the cause, it's very obvious that Hail itself is the only source of "brokenness" that Froslass has. As a plus, it's the least messy option.
 
Hmm, I find it hard to believe that Garchomp is uber material without Sand Veil, when there are equally powerful threats present in OU. How did they even came up with the conclusion without even testing Garchomp separate from Sandstream?

However, I think I understand your line of reasoning a little more, not that I agree with it. If a slight boost in evasion is uncompetitive, then I guess Pokemon is an umcompetitive game. Snow Cloak / Sand Veil is NOTHING compared to Moody, the only Ability ban we established for the sake of a competitive metagame. You still possess control over the game - matches are not revolved around the luck of a draw, which was Moody. Also, Moody allowed Evasion boosts to stack up, frequently leading to a helpless situation, where Octillery / Smeargle would accumulate further boosts as you fail to even hit their Substitute. This is not the same scenario with Snow Cloak (well, except for Froslass maybe).
 
I really don't see what the fuss behind Hail is. All it is, is either spamming Blizzard (which isn't really much different from spammming Outrage), taking advantage of Snow Body (Stallrein is annoying, but manageable), or taking advantage of Snow Cloak. Snow Cloak is annoying, yes, but does a Snow Cloak miss cost you the game? Hardly. On the other hand, Pokemon and abilities that have been banned due to hax (Garchomp and Moody), have been banned because the hax involved actually costs you the game. A missed Ice Beam on Garchomp usually means you just lost your revenge killer. An evasion boost pretty much means game over with Moody unless you have really specific checks. Snow Cloak? You don't usually lose because of a miss. The most you'll get is a whole bunch of hazards, which yes, it would be debilitating, but it's nothing you can't claw your way out of easily.
 
"Claw your way out of"....easily? I don't mean to be pedantic but the connotations of "claw your way out" sort of contradict the "easily" part. I only bring this up because I was going to point out that having multiple layers of spikes set up against you while up against one of the most difficult spin-blockers out there, with leftovers negated and STAB Blizzard waiting to punish any mistake (20% of non-mistakes too), is actually a really shitty situation to be in. You seem to be making this admission already but then turning arpund and dismissing it because hail "only" has these other two advantages that suddenly become absolute hell to deal with when there's spikes on the field. Those free spikes make a massive difference. Just because it's a downward spiral rather than an outrageous sweep doesn't make it any less of a loss.
 
Pocket said:
Hmm, I find it hard to believe that Garchomp is uber material without Sand Veil, when there are equally powerful threats present in OU. How did they even came up with the conclusion without even testing Garchomp separate from Sandstream?

However, I think I understand your line of reasoning a little more, not that I agree with it. If a slight boost in evasion is uncompetitive, then I guess Pokemon is an umcompetitive game. Snow Cloak / Sand Veil is NOTHING compared to Moody, the only Ability ban we established for the sake of a competitive metagame. You still possess control over the game - matches are not revolved around the luck of a draw, which was Moody. Also, Moody allowed Evasion boosts to stack up, frequently leading to a helpless situation, where Octillery / Smeargle would accumulate further boosts as you fail to even hit their Substitute. This is not the same scenario with Snow Cloak (well, except for Froslass maybe).
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This is the point me, Heywasup and a 100% vote on smogon all agreed with. It doesnt have a proper counter if its ran mixed with fire blast almost if not everything dies to it. If it runs scarf with that attitude then it outruns everything. Chomp was band on this very rule and this very rule alone: It garunteed at least one kill regardless of situation on your opponents team and that made it broken.
 
Scoopapa said:
To me the crappy "collateral damage" pokes who suffer in a Snow Cloak / Sand Veil ban don't matter at all. We've pretty much covered that Snow Cloak is not broken on just anything; if we are banning it, it is due to the uncompetitive nature of evasion abilities.

Something that would be shitty becoming viable is just as uncompetitive as something that would be viable becoming broken. In both cases we are talking about a crucial miss doing damage to your team. I don't care whether it's a little advantage or a big one, I shouldn't have to concede an advantage because of some passive field effect that might give my opponent a free turn. There's absolutely no reason that Beartic should be getting free substitutes on a 20% per turn basis. If I lose a battle because Beartic dodged a Flash Cannon or something, that's fucking stupid, even if it was only a minor bit of damage that tipped the scales in my opponent's favor.

Just for shits here's a list of all pokemon who would be affected by a Snow Cloak / Sand Veil ban:

Sand Veil:

Cacturne: Water Veil isn't out but it will be good on it. Use Shiftry :D
Dugtrio: When I'm finished laughing I will scold you for how uncompetitive Sand Veil Duggy is
Garchomp: Sucks to be you. Rough Skin will be sick, though.
Gligar: Use Hyper Cutter.
Gliscor: Use Hyper Cutter or Poison Heal.
Sandslash: Nobody wants to use Sandslash until Sand Rush comes out on it anyway. Claydol is better in RU.

and DWers

Donphan: Why wouldn't you use Sturdy?
Golem: Why wouldn't you use Sturdy? (or Rhyperior)
Stunfisk: Static is his big gimmick. Use it instead.

Snow Cloak

Beartic: fuck Beartic
Froslass: fuck Froslass (ok losing this would be a bummer but don't blame me I support combo bans :D)
Glaceon: Ice Body is a great ability for Glaceon
Mamoswine: Use Oblivious or Thick Fat

and DWers

Articuno: If you want to save evasion abilities because repeatedly pressing Substitute is your favorite strategy ever, then you'll be glad to know that Pressure Articuno can use that strategy just fine.
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Are you for real? Never mind the fact those most of those Pokemon lose out on a ton of movepool options or that half of those abilities are unreleased. Some of those Pokemon are very viable in UU. You're actually suggesting we preserve a broken strategy over dozens of Pokemon? Those abilities don't even fall under evasion clause, its just a convenient excuse to keep froslass / hail and screw over the dozen or so Pokemon that are affected by the SV / SC ban. Its not like with Moody where every pokemon that has the ability is 100% broken.

I personally think that banning Froslass is a poor choice too, because we're just banning a symptom, not the overall cause. Combo bans are stupid (unless they're 100% required like in Drizzle / SS's case don't both arguing me on this please direct all inquiries to my secretary Aldaron ---->) and Hail as a whole is broken strategy that needs to be banned, banning Froslass won't change things at the end of day. Good hail teams will just swap her out for Deoxys-D and continue raping their ladder, via blizzspam, stall or other bs.


I really don't see what the fuss behind Hail is. All it is, is either spamming Blizzard (which isn't really much different from spammming Outrage), taking advantage of Snow Body (Stallrein is annoying, but manageable), or taking advantage of Snow Cloak. Snow Cloak is annoying, yes, but does a Snow Cloak miss cost you the game? Hardly. On the other hand, Pokemon and abilities that have been banned due to hax (Garchomp and Moody), have been banned because the hax involved actually costs you the game. A missed Ice Beam on Garchomp usually means you just lost your revenge killer. An evasion boost pretty much means game over with Moody unless you have really specific checks. Snow Cloak? You don't usually lose because of a miss. The most you'll get is a whole bunch of hazards, which yes, it would be debilitating, but it's nothing you can't claw your way out of easily.
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Yessssssss /salt.

Froslass dodging a crucial Iron Head and Psychic has cost me a TT game. (and a dozen of ladder matches too) there's no doubt in my mind the Froslass is ridiculously overpowered in Hail. It just so happens that Hail as a whole is overpowered and banning Froslass alone would be futile.


PS: The worst offender isn't even Froslass, its Rotom-F, who literally has no counters most of the time.
 
The only way (in my opinon) to stop hail/abamosnow or froslass from being ban is to simply seperate the 2. What I mean is froslass should go BL and become ban from UU that way she will not become broken and will still be playable the only thing that concerns me is when she moves up will she still be compatible with the teir she moved up in. Also will abamosnow be useless after she leaves. Abamosnow should not go BL its not good enough to be played in standered OU/BL without getting raped or a train ran through it. Im sure it can hold its own in UU without froslass its just the fact that without abomasnow their is no froslass
 
shrang said:
I really don't see what the fuss behind Hail is. All it is, is either spamming Blizzard (which isn't really much different from spammming Outrage), taking advantage of Snow Body (Stallrein is annoying, but manageable), or taking advantage of Snow Cloak. Snow Cloak is annoying, yes, but does a Snow Cloak miss cost you the game? Hardly. On the other hand, Pokemon and abilities that have been banned due to hax (Garchomp and Moody), have been banned because the hax involved actually costs you the game. A missed Ice Beam on Garchomp usually means you just lost your revenge killer. An evasion boost pretty much means game over with Moody unless you have really specific checks. Snow Cloak? You don't usually lose because of a miss. The most you'll get is a whole bunch of hazards, which yes, it would be debilitating, but it's nothing you can't claw your way out of easily.
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I'm not sure you've ever faced hail if that's how you describe it.

PK Gaming said:
Are you for real? Never mind the fact those most of those Pokemon lose out on a ton of movepool options or that half of those abilities are unreleased. Some of those Pokemon are very viable in UU. You're actually suggesting we preserve a broken strategy over dozens of Pokemon? Those abilities don't even fall under evasion clause, its just a convenient excuse to keep froslass / hail and screw over the dozen or so Pokemon that are affected by the SV / SC ban. Its not like with Moody where every pokemon that has the ability is 100% broken.
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Actually, you're wrong. Not every Pokemon with Moody is 100% broken. What about the Bidoof, Remoraid, etc? It was a principle ban. Much like the SC / SV ban would be. Those Pokemon don't currently fall under the evasion clause, but that's what we aim to do (why would we bother banning them if they were already banned?). Why didn't we just ban each of the fully evolved / viable mons instead?

All of the people throwing blind accusations such as "you just want Froslass to stay" are kind of missing the entire point. Froslass is not broken outside of hail meaning logically it cannot be the cause of the brokenness of hail. So clearly we don't want to ban Froslass. If any option is "wrong", that's it. It's the one that makes the least sense in terms of what's actually broken or what violates the principles of competitive battling. I know you (PK Gaming) don't actually think Froslass is a good choice to ban, but I was just attacking your arguments because they are being used by others who do think it's a good idea.

PK Gaming said:
I personally think that banning Froslass is a poor choice too, because we're just banning a symptom, not the overall cause. Combo bans are stupid (unless they're 100% required like in Drizzle / SS's case don't both arguing me on this please direct all inquiries to my secretary Aldaron ---->) and Hail as a whole is broken strategy that needs to be banned, banning Froslass won't change things at the end of day. Good hail teams will just swap her out for Deoxys-D and continue raping their ladder, via blizzspam, stall or other bs.
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I agree with this. Snow Warning ban will get rid of Hail altogether and I think the metagame will be better for it. Sure, we may have problems with sand sooner or later (when that monster Sandslash is released), however, until then we need to ban what's broken now. Hail is the obvious culprit.

PK Gaming said:
PS: The worst offender isn't even Froslass, its Rotom-F, who literally has no counters most of the time.
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I hear this a lot but Rotom-F isn't even that commonly used on hail teams (it should be, I guess) and it's definitely not the "best" hail abuser. Sure it hits hard enough but it's not that fast and Snorlax walls its face. I think Froslass or even Abomasnow are the best hail Pokemon. Abomasnow is often ignored because hail teams have to use it but man fuck that Abomasnow is incredible. High Attack, Special Attack, HP, Leech Seed, dual 120 BP Stabs. Oh I'm so sorry that hail has to use this mon.
 
PK Gaming said:
Are you for real? Never mind the fact those most of those Pokemon lose out on a ton of movepool options or that half of those abilities are unreleased.

Most, Ton, Half, all of these are exaggerations. 6/14 that lose any movepool at all != most, only Froslass loses any moves that are commonly used on her (Pain Split), and 5/14 having to wait for DW release != half.

Some of those Pokemon are very viable in UU.

You need to reread my post as I covered this argument well enough that any restatement of it should at least address what I said.

You're actually suggesting we preserve a broken strategy over dozens of Pokemon?

Did I say, "lets keep a broken strategy around?". That's putting words in my mouth. Hail will be quite manageable when you can actually plan a strategy that isn't inherently risky because it involves attacking Froslass. Also dozens is another exaggeration.

Those abilities don't even fall under evasion clause, its just a convenient excuse to keep froslass / hail and screw over the dozen or so Pokemon that are affected by the SV / SC ban.

The whole point of the argument is they should fall under evasion clause. I see we're down to a dozen now but tbh not that many are actually "screwed" by it. In fact the number is really 5, most of whom will be a-ok when their DW abilities are released.

Its not like with Moody where every pokemon that has the ability is 100% broken.

No, it's like Snow Cloak or Sand Veil where everything that is accomplished due to a miss is 100% unfair.
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Rayquaza_ said:
Knock it off with the "Froslass + Hail + Snow Cloak = broken" arguments.

She's not broken. She's annoying, and that's exactly what she's meant to be.
Just like Iron Head Jirachi and Poison Heal Gliscor in OU.
She doesn't single-handedly cause your team to lose under any circumstance. She's not Garchomp who could sweep half of your team if you missed an Ice Beam, she's a mere support pokemon.

How about we start talking about what really could use a suspect testing?
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We are you just dont like the subject of suspect would you like to argue that down with the MOD below me?... Iron head jirachi is easly tooken out by gyrados or heatran and poison heal gliscor is just screaming "hit me with ice beam" with vaporeon or surf with the lati twins or hydro pump with rotom-w. So no I think your sadly mistaken. I do agree with you on garchomp though and somewhat on frosslass. Lets look at the counters for froslass and what kind of movesets she can run:
moveset one- t-wave-spikes-shadowball/blizzard-hp fighting
moveset two- t-wave-spikes-shadowball/blizzard-substitute
moveset three-substitute-shadowball-blizzard-hp fighting/t-bolt/destiny bond (petya/salac berry)
Now these are just movesets off the top of my head without the help of serebii/smogon. Lets look at the so called "counters" keep in mind that hail is running and this is a UU match.
Zoroak:t-wave then hp fighting
Weavile:same
Togakiss:hid behind snow cloaked sub and 2hko with blizzard or even 1hko
Spiritomb: can come in on it and force a switch but can it stop it behind sub and from setting up spikes. Unless it sets up calm mind its useless.
Snorlax:Destiny bond/t-wave or switch out
Rotom-h: proper counter but will be crippled by t-wave if scarfed
Registeel:proper counter
Mismagius: would have to come in and revenge kill and most mismagius arent scarfed their calm minders and thats if you can even hit it and if its not cloaked behind sub.
Milotic:proper counter
Mamoswine: Hp fighting,cloak sub/set up
Jolteon: Can take the t-wave and even hp fighting especally a bulky jolteon, can return with shadow ball but we must rember that froslass will be behind sub and you will risk missing and taking a blizzard cock/rape to the face. He/she can only revenge kill under certain circumstances.
Houndoom:HP fighting
Hitmontop: crippled by t-wave but proper counter
Escavalier:same
Empoleon:same and hp fighting
Cobalion:same as empoleon
Chansey:proper counter
Bisharp:hp fighting
Charizard:dont know if it can take a shadow ball from her and live to tell about it
Azumarill: crippled by t-wave and killed by shadow ball
Arcainine:same as hitmontop
Abomasnow:crippled by t-wave and killed by hp fighting.
Out of all of those counter like 5 or less actually have a chance of shrugging froslass off and living to tell about it.
 
Most, Ton, Half, all of these are exaggerations. 6/14 that lose any movepool at all != most, only Froslass loses any moves that are commonly used on her (Pain Split), and 5/14 having to wait for DW release != half.
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Actually Cacturne loses out on a fair bit of moves(Focus Punch, Bullet Seed, Dark Pulse), Sandslash cannot use any of its moves from gen III > IV(specifically SR) Froslass loses like you say. Yes those were exaggerations, but my point still stands. Implementing a SV/SC ban and nerfing a few pokemon is pointless even necessary when there's an easier solution. I won't pursue this any further, but we shouldn't actively try to reduce a Pokemon's versatility.

You need to reread my post as I covered this argument well enough that any restatement of it should at least address what I said.
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None of those Pokemon are very viable in UU :S

Did I say, "lets keep a broken strategy around?". That's putting words in my mouth. Hail will be quite manageable when you can actually plan a strategy that isn't inherently risky because it involves attacking Froslass. Also dozens is another exaggeration.
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Right, sorry for the strawman i'm hotblooded so I like to exaggerate. I disagree with your second point, Hail is most definitely not manageable even if Froslass were to get banned. You still need to deal with Rotom-F obliterating you, Mamoswine*, Blizzspammers, Abomasnow, etc. You still need to deal with the fact that your team (most of the time) is weatherless and is thus subjected to hail recoil and getting stalled out by Walrein and the like. There was a reason why the top 3 players (back when people played UU for voting rights) were hail players.

The whole point of the argument is they should fall under evasion clause. I see we're down to a dozen now but tbh not that many are actually "screwed" by it. In fact the number is really 5, most of whom will be a-ok when their DW abilities are released.
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I disagree, I don't think SC / SV should not fall under evasion clause, because on top of causing like a dozen issues (SV/SC get banned in Ubers...?) there's a much easier solution that people ignore because they'd rather keep a hail and ban pokemon that they "think" breaks hail when in reality its hail that ends up breaking a few Pokemon it that should get tossed.

No, it's like Snow Cloak or Sand Veil where everything that is accomplished due to a miss is 100% unfair.
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I feel you, although I don't have a problem with getting salted out by a Cacturne or a Sandslash, so I don't think either of those abilities are inherently broken. Really, its Froslass / Mamoswine / etc and the dozen or so SC abusers who get to abuse their abilities nearly 100% in the hail. Its much easier if we cut out the source of our problems instead of (poorly) treating our symptoms.

Actually, you're wrong. Not every Pokemon with Moody is 100% broken. What about the Bidoof, Remoraid, etc? It was a principle ban. Much like the SC / SV ban would be. Those Pokemon don't currently fall under the evasion clause, but that's what we aim to do (why would we bother banning them if they were already banned?). Why didn't we just ban each of the fully evolved / viable mons instead?
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I've actually seen bidoof sweep entire teams before o_0. But you know what i mean man, on every single fully evolved Pokemon, (and a few nfes lol) Moody is broken and it should be banned for that. SC / SV aren't broken on every Pokemon, and banning said abilities because they're deemed "uncompetitive" is weak.

I hear this a lot but Rotom-F isn't even that commonly used on hail teams (it should be, I guess) and it's definitely not the "best" hail abuser. Sure it hits hard enough but it's not that fast and Snorlax walls its face. I think Froslass or even Abomasnow are the best hail Pokemon. Abomasnow is often ignored because hail teams have to use it but man fuck that Abomasnow is incredible. High Attack, Special Attack, HP, Leech Seed, dual 120 BP Stabs. Oh I'm so sorry that hail has to use this mon.
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Rotom-F is a monster, and it will only be a matter of time before every hail team uses him. You say Snorlax walls him? Rotom-F has no problem Volt Switching, switching into a counter and forcing lax out (who then eats hazard damage most likely) and if Lax is in KO range and it can spam Blizzard like a champ. Its got good enough speed, good enough bulk, monstrous power and VS, its hands down my favorite hail abuser to use. Froslass and Aboma are probably close seconds, but they're nowhere near as good as Rotom-F.

TL;DR: Banning Froslass will do nothing, she'll be replaced and hail teams will continue to dominate, I guarantee this. Strike the source, not the symptoms!
 
I'd like to clarify something here.

I am not interested in banning SC/SV because I think hail/sand are broken, or even because I think froslass/cacturne are broken. I am interested in doing so because it is a blatant violation of the evasion clause. Was brightpowder/lax incense broken? No, but we banned it anyway. Snow Cloak/Sand Veil is twice as effective and we still haven't banned it? That's absurdly inconsistent.

However, my contention is that if Snow Cloak is removed, hail would become much more manageable, to the point where the people who feel it's broken might not feel that way anymore. I've read mention of mamoswine/rotom-F as the primary abusers, but the point is that without Froslass' easy spikes, they won't be nearly as destructive (given that their primary counters are grounded, like slowbro and snorlax respectively), and without Snow Cloak, froslass will have a difficult time getting easy spikes.
 
The Brightpowder/LI ban was a panic ban brought out because of chomp. I assure you, there are tons of people behind the scenes who are doing their best the reverse that or at the very least trying to explain their case.

Also, you can always replace Froslass with Deoxys-D, who is great replacement. (pretty effective at laying down spikes, but lacks the ability to dodge hits and spam boosted blizzards) at the end of the day, its practically doing the same thing Froslass did.
 
Rayquaza_ said:
Knock it off with the "Froslass + Hail + Snow Cloak = broken" arguments.

She's not broken. She's annoying, and that's exactly what she's meant to be.
Just like Iron Head Jirachi and Poison Heal Gliscor in OU.
She doesn't single-handedly cause your team to lose under any circumstance. She's not Garchomp who could sweep half of your team if you missed an Ice Beam, she's a mere support pokemon.

How about we start talking about what really could use a suspect testing?
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The only similarity Froslass has with Jirachi and Gliscor is that they are all Pokemon. Froslass goes into the battle and doesn't have to do anything to start haxing. Nothing at all. Jirachi needs to a) Outspeed and b) hit the target.

Nor is she like Garchomp, I agree. However you're suggesting Froslass is useless when in realism adding 25% to every Pokemon you have's damage is incredible.

PK Gaming said:
I feel you, although I don't have a problem with getting salted out by a Cacturne or a Sandslash, so I don't think either of those abilities are inherently broken. Really, its Froslass / Mamoswine / etc and the dozen or so SC abusers who get to abuse their abilities nearly 100% in the hail. Its much easier if we cut out the source of our problems instead of (poorly) treating our symptoms.
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I would agree that we should target hail specifically first, but Snow Cloak is not the worst option. I'm sure you'd agree that banning Froslass is inherently more illogical. It's true that banning Slow Cloak is banning a symptom, but it's actually doing more than just that. It's a collective nerf that would nerf hail way harder then just banning Froslass would.

PK Gaming]I've actually seen bidoof sweep entire teams before o_0. But you know what i mean man said:
Also, you can always replace Froslass with Deoxys-D, who is great replacement. (pretty effective at laying down spikes, but lacks the ability to dodge hits and spam boosted blizzards) at the end of the day, its practically doing the same thing Froslass did.
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While I do agree with your solution (not necessarily reasoning for it though), I really think you and others are underestimating Froslass. Froslass is not replaceable by any means. You can't just put Deoxys-D in there and then magically still have a Spin Blocker or a 350 Speed revenge killer. You need to find another slot on your team for a Ghost-type, otherwise you in fact have been nerfed to the point where I'm not that threatened by hail. Just my opinion anyway.
 
PK Gaming said:
Actually Cacturne loses out on a fair bit of moves(Focus Punch, Bullet Seed, Dark Pulse), Sandslash cannot use any of its moves from gen III > IV(specifically SR) Froslass loses like you say.
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Okay, I missed Focus Punch and that's legitimate, though there is Low Kick (and I've only ever seen one player use Cacturne anyway... Shiftry is at least comparable and arguably better because it can outspeed the Bulky Waters you're trying to kill and survive an Ice Beam at the same time. Also Nature Power > Low Kick. Thats a whole debate on its own I guess). I didn't mention Dark Pulse because Special Cacturne is kind of blah but to be fair cacturne would miss out on a lot of "other options"-worthy moves. Sandslash is heavily outclassed in UU and RU which is why I didn't mention Stealth Rock on it. It won't have any effect on the metagame until it gets Sand Rush and then it won't care about Stealth Rock. You might think it's an RU Donphan but seriously it isn't good.

PK Gaming said:
None of those Pokemon are very viable in UU :S
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Ok I used Beartic in my argument but it applies just as well to, say, Cacturne. The point is that you shouldn't be able to break the metagame because of miss hax any more than you should be able to use some cool underrated threat because of miss hax. In either case you are talking about a pokemon who is accomplishing something because of a passive evasion modifier that basically grants it a free turn 1 out of 5 times. It's stupid with Froslass, and it's stupid with Cacturne. I don't care if Cacturne isn't broken, or isn't bog standard, or how many props someone thinks they get for using it - if it wouldn't have accomplished anything without dodging a perfect accuracy attack, but does because it did, that's fucking dumb.

I didn't really think you had addressed this point when you responded to me, but then when you responded to Heysup you said:

PK Gaming said:
SC / SV aren't broken on every Pokemon, and banning said abilities because they're deemed "uncompetitive" is weak.
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which is more along the lines of what I think we (a lot of us at least) are really discussing, here. Basically, is this Froslass fiasco just a symptom of a loophole in the evasion clause? I know a lot of people (including myself) were under the impression that Froslass is only broken in hail and hail is only broken because Froslass can hax you to death. The conclusion I've drawn from this is that Snow Cloak and Sand Veil just aren't fair in general. They add a form of luck that is unlike almost all of the other luck in pokemon because it is completely unavoidable. Like I said before, any strategy you might use against a Hail team is inherently risky because somewhere along the line you have to attack the damn Froslass (unless you're using Toxic Spikes I guess). You can choose to use Flamethrower over Fire Blast. You can choose to finish off a weakened enemy with Ice Beam instead of Hydro Pump. You can't choose a 100% accuracy move with which to attack a SV / SC pokemon.

If we decide Hail is broken without Froslass then I guess the issue would fade from view, but it wouldn't necessarily go away. The SV / SC issue really goes deeper than just balance, it just so happens that it may also fix our current balance-related woes.

PK Gaming said:
The Brightpowder/LI ban was a panic ban brought out because of chomp. I assure you, there are tons of people behind the scenes who are doing their best the reverse that or at the very least trying to explain their case.
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This is really hard to believe considering that 5 subs with Leftovers > 4 subs with Brightpowder.
 
PK Gaming said:
The Brightpowder/LI ban was a panic ban brought out because of chomp. I assure you, there are tons of people behind the scenes who are doing their best the reverse that or at the very least trying to explain their case.

Also, you can always replace Froslass with Deoxys-D, who is great replacement. (pretty effective at laying down spikes, but lacks the ability to dodge hits and spam boosted blizzards) at the end of the day, its practically doing the same thing Froslass did.
Click to expand...

I'm not interested in what the reasoning behind it was, although your given reason seems pretty specious to me. What I am saying is that those bans were consistent with our view of what the evasion clause is, and so is a Snow Cloak/Sand Veil ban.

Deo-D is NOT a replacement for Froslass. Deo-D is not a ghost type and it can't stop Donphan/Hitmontop from coming in and just spinning away all its spikes. You seem to lack a fundamental of understanding as to why offensive teams like Froslass - it's because she covers the spinblocker/spiker role in one slot, leaving others open for more attackers.
 
In the case of Cacturne, it loses out on sand storm immunity so it won't get the benefit of its leftovers, which pretty much removes any use it has, even if its gimmicky. Stoutland becomes useless without sandstorm as well.


Froslass is the only one, bar Garchomp, that can remotely abuse snow cloak due to its speed and fitting move pool. Maybe Mamoswine, but Thick Fat would be much better for it.

If Froslass goes BL, its removing a keystone of Hail... Almost removing the entire point of it. Hail's only real advantage is canceling out leftovers, and if you want to remove the viable 'mons inside hail, then you may as well have banned snow warning.


And onto baton pass...

Battle between Alexdagreat and Nysyr started!

Tier: Standard UU
Mode: Singles
Rule: Unrated
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Species Clause
Rule: Wifi Battle

Your team: Mew / Marowak
Opponent's team: Furret / Alakazam / Altaria / Sigilyph / Blastoise / Probopass

Nysyr sent out Mew!
Alexdagreat sent out Furret!

Start of turn 1
Mew used Taunt!
The foe's Furret fell for the taunt!

The foe's Furret can't use Trick after the taunt!

Start of turn 2
Mew used Rock Polish!
Mew's Speed sharply rose!

The foe's Furret used U-turn!
It's super effective!
Mew lost 124 HP! (30% of its health)
Alexdagreat called Furret back!
Alexdagreat sent out Sigilyph!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Sigilyph's Flame Orb activated!
The foe's Sigilyph was burned!

Start of turn 3
Mew used Bulk Up!
Mew's Attack rose!
Mew's Defense rose!

The foe's Sigilyph used Psycho Shift!
The foe's Sigilyph moved its status onto Mew!
Mew was burned!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Mew is hurt by its burn!
The foe's Sigilyph's Flame Orb activated!
The foe's Sigilyph was burned!

Start of turn 4
Mew used Baton Pass!
Nysyr called Mew back!
Nysyr sent out Marowak!

The foe's Sigilyph used Facade!
Marowak lost 23 HP! (8% of its health)

Start of turn 5
Marowak used ThunderPunch!
It's super effective!
The foe's Sigilyph lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Sigilyph fainted!

Alexdagreat sent out Alakazam!

Start of turn 6
Marowak used Bonemerang!
The foe's Alakazam lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Alakazam fainted!
Hit 1 times!

Alexdagreat sent out Blastoise!

Start of turn 7
Marowak used ThunderPunch!
It's super effective!
The foe's Blastoise lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Blastoise fainted!

Alexdagreat sent out Altaria!

Start of turn 8
Marowak used Rock Slide!
It's super effective!
The foe's Altaria lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Altaria fainted!

Alexdagreat sent out Furret!

Start of turn 9
Marowak used Bonemerang!
The foe's Furret lost 84% of its health!
The foe's Furret lost 15% of its health!
The foe's Furret fainted!
Hit 2 times!

Opponent Forfeits.
Battle between Nysyr and Majura started!

Tier: Standard OU
Mode: Singles
Variation: +25, -35
Rule: Rated
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Species Clause
Rule: Wifi Battle

Your team: Ninjask / Marowak / Gorebyss / Spinda / Mew
Opponent's team: Umbreon / Ursaring / Gyarados / Scizor / Skarmory / Gengar

Majura sent out Umbreon!
Nysyr sent out Mew!

Start of turn 1
Mew used Taunt!
The foe's Umbreon fell for the taunt!

The foe's Umbreon can't use Toxic after the taunt!

Start of turn 2
Mew used Rock Polish!
Mew's Speed sharply rose!

The foe's Umbreon used Struggle!
Mew lost 26 HP! (6% of its health)
The foe's Umbreon is hit with recoil!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Umbreon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 3
Mew used Bulk Up!
Mew's Attack rose!
Mew's Defense rose!

The foe's Umbreon used Struggle!
Mew lost 18 HP! (4% of its health)
The foe's Umbreon is hit with recoil!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Umbreon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Umbreon's taunt ended!

Start of turn 4
Mew used Taunt!
The foe's Umbreon fell for the taunt!

The foe's Umbreon can't use Toxic after the taunt!

The foe's Umbreon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 5
Mew used Bulk Up!
Mew's Attack rose!
Mew's Defense rose!

The foe's Umbreon used Struggle!
Mew lost 14 HP! (3% of its health)
The foe's Umbreon is hit with recoil!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Umbreon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 6
Mew used Bulk Up!
Mew's Attack rose!
Mew's Defense rose!

The foe's Umbreon used Struggle!
Mew lost 12 HP! (2% of its health)
The foe's Umbreon is hit with recoil!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Umbreon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Umbreon's taunt ended!

Start of turn 7
Mew used Taunt!
The foe's Umbreon fell for the taunt!

The foe's Umbreon can't use Wish after the taunt!

The foe's Umbreon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 8
Mew used Rock Polish!
Mew's Speed sharply rose!

The foe's Umbreon used Struggle!
Mew lost 12 HP! (2% of its health)
The foe's Umbreon is hit with recoil!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Umbreon restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 9
Majura called Umbreon back!
Majura sent out Ursaring!

Mew used Baton Pass!
Nysyr called Mew back!
Nysyr sent out Gorebyss!

Start of turn 10
Gorebyss used Barrier!
Gorebyss's Defense sharply rose!

The foe's Ursaring used Swords Dance!
The foe's Ursaring's Attack sharply rose!

Start of turn 11
Gorebyss used Baton Pass!
Nysyr called Gorebyss back!
Nysyr sent out Marowak!

The foe's Ursaring used Crunch!
Marowak lost 68 HP! (26% of its health)
Marowak's Defense fell!
The foe's Ursaring is hurt by its Life Orb!

Nysyr: aaaand
Nysyr: here comes the sweeeep

Start of turn 12
Marowak used Double-Edge!
A critical hit!
The foe's Ursaring lost 90% of its health!
The foe's Ursaring fainted!

Majura: haha nice
Majura sent out Gyarados!

The foe's Gyarados intimidates Marowak!
Marowak's Attack fell!

Start of turn 13
Marowak used ThunderPunch!
It's super effective!
The foe's Gyarados lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Gyarados fainted!

Majura sent out Scizor!

Start of turn 14
The foe's Scizor used Bullet Punch!
Marowak lost 48 HP! (18% of its health)
The foe's Scizor is hurt by its Life Orb!

Marowak used Bonemerang!
A critical hit!
The foe's Scizor lost 90% of its health!
The foe's Scizor fainted!
Hit 1 times!

Majura: man thats crazy
Majura: :P
Majura sent out Skarmory!

Nysyr: baton pass is lame like that
Nysyr: these are all UU guys
Nysyr: all but mew a re RU

Start of turn 15
Marowak used ThunderPunch!
It's super effective!
Majura: aha nice
The foe's Skarmory lost 99% of its health!
The foe's Skarmory held on thanks to Sturdy!

The foe's Skarmory used Whirlwind!
Mew was dragged out!

The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 16
Mew used Taunt!
The foe's Skarmory fell for the taunt!

The foe's Skarmory can't use Roost after the taunt!

The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 17
Mew used Bulk Up!
Mew's Attack rose!
Mew's Defense rose!

The foe's Skarmory used Brave Bird!
Mew lost 87 HP! (21% of its health)
The foe's Skarmory is hit with recoil!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 18
Mew used Bulk Up!
Mew's Attack rose!
Mew's Defense rose!

The foe's Skarmory used Brave Bird!
Mew lost 60 HP! (14% of its health)
The foe's Skarmory is hit with recoil!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory's taunt ended!

Start of turn 19
Mew used Rock Polish!
Mew's Speed sharply rose!

The foe's Skarmory used Roost!
The foe's Skarmory landed on the ground!
The foe's Skarmory regained health!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 20
Mew used Bulk Up!
Mew's Attack rose!
Mew's Defense rose!

The foe's Skarmory used Whirlwind!
Marowak was dragged out!

The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 21
Nysyr called Marowak back!
Nysyr sent out Gorebyss!

The foe's Skarmory used Brave Bird!
Gorebyss lost 109 HP! (34% of its health)
The foe's Skarmory is hit with recoil!

The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 22
The foe's Skarmory used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of Nysyr's team!

Gorebyss used Shell Smash!
Gorebyss's Defense fell!
Gorebyss's Sp. Def. fell!
Gorebyss's Attack sharply rose!
Gorebyss's Sp. Att. sharply rose!
Gorebyss's Speed sharply rose!
Gorebyss restored its stats using White Herb!

The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 23
Gorebyss used Baton Pass!
Nysyr called Gorebyss back!
Nysyr sent out Ninjask!

The foe's Skarmory used Whirlwind!
Mew is hurt by spikes!
Mew was dragged out!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 24
Mew used Taunt!
The foe's Skarmory fell for the taunt!

The foe's Skarmory can't use Spikes after the taunt!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 25
Mew used Rock Polish!
Mew's Speed sharply rose!

The foe's Skarmory used Brave Bird!
Mew lost 121 HP! (29% of its health)
The foe's Skarmory is hit with recoil!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 26
Mew used Bulk Up!
Mew's Attack rose!
Mew's Defense rose!

The foe's Skarmory used Brave Bird!
Mew lost 81 HP! (20% of its health)
The foe's Skarmory is hit with recoil!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory's taunt ended!

Start of turn 27
Mew used Taunt!
The foe's Skarmory fell for the taunt!

The foe's Skarmory can't use Whirlwind after the taunt!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 28
Mew used Bulk Up!
Mew's Attack rose!
Mew's Defense rose!

The foe's Skarmory used Brave Bird!
Mew lost 60 HP! (14% of its health)
The foe's Skarmory is hit with recoil!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 29
Mew used Bulk Up!
Mew's Attack rose!
Mew's Defense rose!

The foe's Skarmory used Brave Bird!
Mew lost 52 HP! (12% of its health)
The foe's Skarmory is hit with recoil!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory's taunt ended!

Start of turn 30
Mew used Taunt!
The foe's Skarmory fell for the taunt!

The foe's Skarmory can't use Whirlwind after the taunt!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 31
Mew used Bulk Up!
Mew's Attack rose!
Mew's Defense rose!

The foe's Skarmory used Brave Bird!
Mew lost 39 HP! (9% of its health)
The foe's Skarmory is hit with recoil!

Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 32
Mew used Baton Pass!
Nysyr called Mew back!
Nysyr sent out Marowak!
Marowak is hurt by spikes!

The foe's Skarmory used Brave Bird!
Marowak lost 40 HP! (15% of its health)
The foe's Skarmory is hit with recoil!

The foe's Skarmory restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Skarmory's taunt ended!

Start of turn 33
Marowak used ThunderPunch!
It's super effective!
The foe's Skarmory lost 89% of its health!
The foe's Skarmory fainted!

Majura sent out Umbreon!

Start of turn 34
Marowak used Bonemerang!
The foe's Umbreon lost 18% of its health!
The foe's Umbreon fainted!
Hit 1 times!

Majura sent out Gengar!

Start of turn 35
Marowak used ThunderPunch!
The foe's Gengar lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Gengar fainted!

Nysyr won the battle!
Like srsly.
 
This is really hard to believe considering that 5 subs with Leftovers > 4 subs with Brightpowder.
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Tell that to the voters who banned it!!!

I'm not interested in what the reasoning behind it was, although your given reason seems pretty specious to me. What I am saying is that those bans were consistent with our view of what the evasion clause is, and so is a Snow Cloak/Sand Veil ban.
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ANDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD i'm telling you, tying SC/SV to evasion clause is never going to stick. Neither of those abilities are broken on the majority of the Pokemon that have them, and deeming the ability "uncompetitive" is just subjective. (there are dozens of abilities that are cheesier) Its the same thing with the people OU who want to ban Speed boost to preserve Blaze Blaziken, its just contrivances for the sake of 1~ pokemon (or in this case a play style)

at the end of the day its the ability + pokemon combination that matters, at least imo. (Moody being the one and only exception) really, if I thought hail weren't broken i'd be up for banning Froslass as a whole (no johns)


Deo-D is NOT a replacement for Froslass. Deo-D is not a ghost type and it can't stop Donphan/Hitmontop from coming in and just spinning away all its spikes. You seem to lack a fundamental of understanding as to why offensive teams like Froslass - it's because she covers the spinblocker/spiker role in one slot, leaving others open for more attackers.
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Deo-D has no problem dropping a Night Shade on either of their asses as they desperately try to spin. I do understand that Froslass is significantly better in hail, and even outside of it synthesize laying spikes AND spin blocking, but honestly I think Deoxys-D I find is a decent enough replacement on hail teams. It lacks in typing (no SR weak ftw) but it makes up for it with outrageous bulk and staying power. The only issue with using Deoxys-D is keeping your spikes up from spinners, but hell that shouldn't be a problem considering the majority of hail teams laugh at spinners (excluding Blastoise)

just my 200 000 $
 
pk gaming, people banned it because they didn't want to deal with it, not because it's good at all

and yes, deo d does have problems "dropping night shades" because as long as the spinner has 101+ hp, it has already accomplished its job. you can't do the same with lass without foresight blastoise, (in fact, you can't do the same at all if lass has taunt) at which point it's still subject to misshax.
 
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