NP: UU - Zero to Hero

[Alchemator]

Just to pick up the SubSD discussion we've had on the previous page.

A +2 Heracross Close Combat does 64.5% - 76.3% to Special Sweeper Moltres - if you can keep rocks down you beat it. Add to this that Heracross beats a lot of spinners and SubSD doesn't seem so bad at all.

 

[SJCrew]

You need three turns to pull that off. One to Sub, another to SD, and another to attack. Moltres switches in on the very turn you Substitute and attacks while you SD, leaving you vulnerable to a KO.

With a non-SD set, you just use Stone Edge/Facade and it dies right away.

 

[dbcb]

Ive used and seen hera on the other site (it updated its ladder, but the competition over there in uu is... eh) and it is seriously nothign special ATM. Once again, the comp over there isn't nearly as good... but you didn't need to be good to use the broken guys like yanmega and shaymin.

Still, when I used it, the flame orb 4 attack set wast he best.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

So Heracross did drop after all. This surprised me actually, I thought it would always be on the lower edge of OU. I might actually end up playing on the UU ladder again to give it a go. Maybe. Just a little.

Anyway, am I the only one who thinks that, when considering all possible sets, Heracross is overall better off with bulk investment as opposed to speed investment? Or at least a healthy mixture of the two. Oh and that CBCross should run Double Edge, especially if Adamant. Because a wallbreaker should be less concerned with surviving long enough to try and kill everything, and more concerned with not being easily walled in the first place.

All of this fits in with the whole 'Hera isn't a sweeper, it's a wallbreaker supreme' idea, that makes perfect sense to me.

On another note, Nidoqueen is a pretty shitty Hera counter if you ask me. She would need to run Rivalry to mitigate the risk, at which point her damage output against most Pokemon becomes severely compromised. This is on top of the fact it has to run the overspecialized Aerial Ace just to do 'respectable' damage, not necessarily KO damage by any means. I only mention this because I heard it suggested somewhere as a possible counter.

 

[uragg]

yeah imo hera is comparable to gallde more than any other suspect. it can pull off some sweeps but its main duty is just utterly destroying stall. while 'comparing suspects' isn't a valid argument, i can see hera doing just as good a job ripping apart defensive teams with dual STABs, SD/Bulk Up, and a coverage move.

@lemmiwinks: for defensive hera sets like bulky Bulk Up or ResTalk, defensive EVs are definitely a lot more useful than speed EVs. for any other version however, i would still at least run 216 evs to beat those crucial base 80s since they figure to be on every team.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Hera's implemented on PO now if anyone needs to test. I've been using Sub + 3 Attacks and it's devastating - most offensive teams lack a decent switch-in, and most defensive teams give it multiple opportunities to come in and tear through things.

I'd quite like to try the ResTalk + Bulk Up variant.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

@Ice-eyes and anyone else who's played with Hera in UU, I've heard the idea of Sub+Flame Orb brought up, and I've been wondering how effective it would be. Does Flame Orb (or Toxic Orb) allow it to kill anything it normally couldn't? Or does it just die too quickly?

 

[Bad Ass]

the most dangerous set is easily the orb + 4 attack set. it's a hybrid of choice band and life orb -- you take a little damage in exchange for the power of choice band and the freedom of life orb. trust me, it hits like a motherfucking truck. generally you just spam facade early game since it still does solid damage to arcanine and 2hkos weezing (i think!), and then mid game use the correct stab move to open up a hole in their defense. heracross probably isnt sweeping teams on its own, but if your opponent has to sacrifice a pokemon after it's come in once and weakened you up then you can quickly open up holes by utilizing his good defensive stats.

 

[Heysup]

the most dangerous set is easily the orb + 4 attack set. it's a hybrid of choice band and life orb -- you take a little damage in exchange for the power of choice band and the freedom of life orb. trust me, it hits like a motherfucking truck. generally you just spam facade early game since it still does solid damage to arcanine and 2hkos weezing (i think!), and then mid game use the correct stab move to open up a hole in their defense. heracross probably isnt sweeping teams on its own, but if your opponent has to sacrifice a pokemon after it's come in once and weakened you up then you can quickly open up holes by utilizing his good defensive stats.

42.2% - 50% to physical wall variants, so you have a fair shot of 2HKOing...but what is Weezing going to do back to you anyway?

I'm unsure if I like this set better than the Life Orb, but <Flame or Life> Orb + 4 Attacks it is definitely one, if not the most dangerous set. I mean you can OHKO Rotom with Night Slash in the last slot if you want (since Facade handles Moltres already with the Flame Orb set). It's basically a trade off between .2 more power + Facade and the ability to beat Substitute users + gain an even bigger boost if you switch into status.

 

[dbcb]

@Ice-eyes and anyone else who's played with Hera in UU, I've heard the idea of Sub+Flame Orb brought up, and I've been wondering how effective it would be. Does Flame Orb (or Toxic Orb) allow it to kill anything it normally couldn't? Or does it just die too quickly?

dies too quickly IME playing against it.




The SD set sucks so far IME. Hera does not compare to Gallade at all. That like of priority is HUGE for a sweeper set.

 

[Arcticblast]

Weezing can use Flamethrower. It might not do much, but add that to burn/poison damage and you have a real problem on your hands.

 

[Bad Ass]

who cares what weezing can use the point is heracross rips the shit out of everything with that set

 

[uragg]

lol if weezing were to run flamethrower then it's gonna be complete set-up bait for every fire-type sweeper. or it can lack reliable recovery and fall to venusaur and friends. sure weezing can centralize to 'counter' heracross but then the rest of the team can pretty much manhandle it easily. plus guts SD, even if its life span is like 2 turns max, turns all of heracross's stall counters into mush.

 

[Choice Socks]

Life orb + 3 attacks, and sleep talk will make a great switch into venu, and guts will be activated if you predict the sleep powder. I reckon thats one of the sets i'll be trying first

 

[Thund91]

lol if weezing were to run flamethrower then it's gonna be complete set-up bait for every fire-type sweeper. or it can lack reliable recovery and fall to venusaur and friends. sure weezing can centralize to 'counter' heracross but then the rest of the team can pretty much manhandle it easily. plus guts SD, even if its life span is like 2 turns max, turns all of heracross's stall counters into mush.

Since when is running Fire Blast/Flamethrower on Weezing centralization? It's been a staple on it since forever. 92% of Weezing run Will-O-Wisp and Fire-types can still switch on that, does that mean that all Weezing should abandon it? Yeah I didn't think so. Not to mention Weezing is frequently paired with Milotic who shits on all Fire-types sooooo.....

 

[SJCrew]

Flamethower/Pain Split/Sludge Bomb/Will-o-Wisp

Looks like a pretty good Weezing set to me. Besides, Weezing has always had the aforementioned problems, and Hera really isn't going to change that.

 

[Bluewind]

Flamethrower can just replace Sludge Bomb on the RestTalk set, as you still hit Grass-types (and Venusaur harder), as well as pretty much everything else Weezing needs to counter/check (it also hits Toxicroack for way more damage).

 

[whistle]

yo i think you guys are missing the point here which is:

who cares what weezing can use the point is heracross rips the shit out of everything with that set

also i feel like toxic orb is a lot more effective than flame orb. lots of times against offense you will be spamming one attack on the switch then going back out immediately. just two such hit-and-run attacks means the difference between the orbs is equal to sr damage. if you're taking 24%+ from poison damage, chances are either youre atrocious at prediction (or playing since you should have switched out already) or youre wrecking someones face in in which case it doesn't really matter...

 

[Ice-eyes]

I have been testing the Specially Defensive ResTalk set with Bulk Up and it's amazing. Weezing 5HKOs with Flamethrower :P Nothing on stall ever has any hope of doing anything to it and offensive teams are likely packing very specific counters which are Fire- and or Flying-type so easily worn down. Bulky Water + Normal / Flying resist cover basically everything that threatens it and with hazards it becomes really tough to stop.

 

[Thund91]

also i feel like toxic orb is a lot more effective than flame orb. lots of times against offense you will be spamming one attack on the switch then going back out immediately. just two such hit-and-run attacks means the difference between the orbs is equal to sr damage. if you're taking 24%+ from poison damage, chances are either youre atrocious at prediction (or playing since you should have switched out already) or youre wrecking someones face in in which case it doesn't really matter...

Wouldn't this just be a case of Alakazam syndrome? Come in after a kill, kill something, and than be forced out again?

I've been busy so I haven't tested Heracross yet but it seems like it would do terribly against offensive teams. Looks like it can come in on what...Venusaur? Even than his attacks hurt and he had to have already slept something. Which brings me back to the whole Alakazam syndrome thing....

I have been testing the Specially Defensive ResTalk set with Bulk Up and it's amazing. Weezing 5HKOs with Flamethrower :P Nothing on stall ever has any hope of doing anything to it and offensive teams are likely packing very specific counters which are Fire- and or Flying-type so easily worn down. Bulky Water + Normal / Flying resist cover basically everything that threatens it and with hazards it becomes really tough to stop.

Looks good on paper, but I never use shit like this against stall because they always have either 1.Haze Milotic 2.Curse Spiritomb 3.Perish Song Altaria.

 

[Heysup]

Well the difference is that Heracross can a) easily sweep stall (Alakazam has a much harder time due to Spiritomb), b) actually switch into attacks vs an offensive team. It can come in on Earthquakes and the like. Alakazam dies to a love tap and can be Pursuited.

 

[Thund91]

Earthquake from who though? Kangaskhan or Hitmonlee who will just outspeed and KO on the next turn? Heracross can only come in on Torterra or Rhyperiors Earthquake once, so it's not like they guarantee him many free switch ins, and if Rhyperior uses Stone Edge or Rock Polish well...good luck. Heracross doesn't have the bulk to switch in as much as people think, it's 2HKOed by Hitmonlee's CC ffs. Yeah bulky Water Milotic will let you switch in twice but she lets a shitload of things switch in. Heracross only wishes he had Alakazam's speed to switch in on set-up moves like Leafeon's SD or Houndoom's Nasty Plot and KO or force them out...but unless he has a Scarf he'll just end up getting killed. If only he has just a BIT more Speed...

 

[Synre]

Played and watched quite a few games with/against Hera on the PO ladder today.

Scarf Heracross is pretty dangerous, reams offensive teams basically no matter what and does well against more defensive ones. Basically every other set has been completely trivial because everyone has a bunch of shit that outruns it. Always happy to see status orbs and life orbs, means its easy to remove. Heracross itself has been underwhelming so far, but we'll see how things look on SU, and when the metagame normalizes some.

Seeing lots of Scyther, Leafeon, Spiritomb(which is just awful against Heracross...), Heracross itself, Swellow.

 

[Heysup]

Earthquake from who though? Kangaskhan or Hitmonlee who will just outspeed and KO on the next turn? Heracross can only come in on Torterra or Rhyperiors Earthquake once, so it's not like they guarantee him many free switch ins, and if Rhyperior uses Stone Edge or Rock Polish well...good luck. Heracross doesn't have the bulk to switch in as much as people think, it's 2HKOed by Hitmonlee's CC ffs. Yeah bulky Water Milotic will let you switch in twice but she lets a shitload of things switch in. Heracross only wishes he had Alakazam's speed to switch in on set-up moves like Leafeon's SD or Houndoom's Nasty Plot and KO or force them out...but unless he has a Scarf he'll just end up getting killed. If only he has just a BIT more Speed...

Well there is Torterra, Registeel, Sceptile, Spiritomb, Weezing, Leafeon, Bulky waters etc that Heracross can come in on versus a balanced/offensive team. It's more than Alakazam can't switch into anything besides non-attacking moves which aren't as common as attacking moves. It also has many types immune to its STAB, and they often carry Pursuit.

Played and watched quite a few games with/against Hera on the PO ladder today.

Scarf Heracross is pretty dangerous, reams offensive teams basically no matter what and does well against more defensive ones. Basically every other set has been completely trivial because everyone has a bunch of shit that outruns it. Always happy to see status orbs and life orbs, means its easy to remove. Heracross itself has been underwhelming so far, but we'll see how things look on SU, and when the metagame normalizes some.

Seeing lots of Scyther, Leafeon, Spiritomb(which is just awful against Heracross...), Heracross itself, Swellow.

My favorite Heracross team so far (undefeated on PO if that's saying anything (it isn't saying much)) happens to be the one with ScarfCross. It's a great revenge killer and late game sweeper. The other Heracross are fun but I mean....you can just revenge kill it.

I'll just say it: from my experiences so far, Heracross is not broken. It does trouble stall, but no more that Absol. It has that exploitable 4x weakness, and maybe stall will (for once) be forced to carry Pokemon like Moltres or Uxie to beat it.

I like the metagame with Heracross in it.

 

[umbarsc]

I love how consistent we are with our tiering justifications. Heracross has middling speed and other Pokemon can revenge it but not switch in; of course it's UU! I can't remember a time when heysup has argued anything to the contrary.

I'd like to reiterate that Toxic Orb is vastly superior to Flame Orb. It takes four consecutive turns for Toxic damage to outweigh burn damage, which you're probably not going to get. I say this because in this thread, Flame Orb has always been mentioned over Toxic Orb.

I'm still waiting for the ladder to be updated, but the set I'm most interested in is Toxic Orb + 4 Attacks, because it has that easily spammable Facade and maintains great coverage. I guess the fourth slot doesn't give you a lot more coverage, but you gain some neat options like OHKOing Rotom / Mismagius (Night Slash) or OHKOing Scyther / Moltres on the switch when SR is down (Rock Slide). The freedom to switch attacks + the power of Choice Band + status immunity is very cool. The only thing that's going to end up being really annoying is random HP Flying on Pokemon like Rotom.