np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]

[BlazikenBlitz]

Hello. Having been lurking these forums for a good bit, I figured I'd put in my two cents on the Mawile Suspect, although it's mostly just a re-presentation of the facts posted earlier on the thread.
Mega Mawile is, you could say, one of the most powerful pokemon in terms of strength, with strength comparable to Ubers, let alone OU pokes. And with Priority and ways to pick off it's normal counters (whether on one set or the other) added to this tremendous power, there is good reason for it to be suspected, and I assume inevitably banned. While I am not specifically on one side or the other in this suspect as I have been while lurking through the Threads of some of the past X/Y suspects, (Anti-ban on Aegi and the Deoxys formes, and pro ban on Genesect) I do realize the reason for the suspect to be happening and do respect the suspect. I am personally more of a Wifi player, and not seeing many Heatran around to counter the SD Mawile set I run, it at least picks up 1-2 kills a game on my worst games, coming from someone who probably cannot even get reqs to vote had he tried. Mawile's speed troubles can be easily overcome by the tremendously strong priority it holds in it's hand in the form of Sucker Punch, which can cause further mindgames and can even net you a free SD depending on how your opponent plays it. I believe that Mawile is an outrageous threat in the metagame, as been stated and calc'd by many people above me. Whether it goes or not, i'm not one to care, but I am eager to see how the meta turns out without it, as I don't play showdown often enough to test the suspect ladder.

 

[testsubordinate]

I really don't like the fact that Mega Mawile basically forces you to
a) run one of a very limited number of Pokemon that can check this thing and that still have a great chance of dying anyways
b) run something faster with Substitute that would threaten a strong enough attack to force it to Sucker Punch
c) be unable to switch in on it
d) live in eternal fear of Swords Dance and Sub+Punch

I honestly don't think we should be forced to run certain Pokemon just to counter specific things, and then possibly get swept anyways depending on how well MM's user predicts. There really isn't a good excuse for this level of base power, especially when aided by SD and Sub+Punch, and it needs to be banned.

 

[Unbirthday]

Although I'm going to repeat a lot of things other people, including Haunter, said before, I felt like stating my opinion on Mawile as well.

Mega Mawile has an unmatched combination of sweeping potential, wallbreaking potential, typing and the right stats/movepool to do exactly what it needs to do, that thing being absolutely terrorising teams of every playstyle. Nothing can even come close to having all these combined attributes to the same effect of Mawile, and its presence shapes the metagame like very little else, forcing offense to run stuff like Choice Specs Keldeo (which is, obviously, very good even without Mawile, but a lot more so with it around as it's one of the few Pokemon preventing offense from autolosing to Mega Mawile) or risk getting swept when it inevitably uses its above average defenses and unbelievably good typing to set up on very common Pokemon such as Latios, Latias, Azumarill, Ferrothorn, Talonflame locked into Brave Bird, or even Pokemon such as Terrakion and Hippowdon if the situation dictates it and Mawile both has the health to shrug off their hits and is in a position to sweep. People say how it's weak to ground and fire moves but considering that none of those even OHKO without both STAB and a good attack stat/boosting item backing it up, does it really matter? Mawile is sweeping a large portion of offensive teams with very little weakening and very little support whether it's at 50% or 20%. People also say that its Sucker Punch is "weak because it doesn't have STAB" which is pretty ridiculous. Again, does it really matter that you don't have STAB when your priority eclipses Arceus' Silk Scarf boosted Extremespeed in power? It's like people are looking for reasons this thing hasn't gotten quickbanned instead of reasons for it not getting banned. When you can set up on a huge portion of this tier and destrolish pretty much every offensive Pokemon in your path with Sucker Punch while doing the same to everything slower with Play Rough/Fire Fang and having what is without a doubt one of the best defensive typings in the whole game with the perfect ability pre-Mega Evolution to guarantee at least one turn of setup and the right stats to do exactly what you need to do, something seems very wrong.

And this doesn't even go into its ability to break Stall just as well. Stall has like 3 viable checks to it that aren't borderline shit, borderline gimmicky or both. Out of those three (Bulky Charizard Y, Mega Venusaur with Leech Seed/HP Fire or Sleep Powder/HP Fire and Defensive Heatran with Will-O-Wisp), the only one that is remotely hard to wear down is Heatran, who can't even do anything to you without Will-o-Wisp except Lava Pluming, hoping that it burns because it's not OHKOing, and then stalling you out with Protect. While you could argue "every sweeper sweeps with its counters gone", well, that's the point, Mawile's counters are not only extremely easy for a capable offensive team to wear down, but also aren't on every stall team as Pokemon such as Charizard X and Mega Scizor are used for their ability to check other offensive threats. "but Thundurus/Landorus don't need a lot of support to destroy defensive teams either and destroys stall cores without their dedicated counters", well, Thundurus and Landorus don't run around with Swords Dance and the ability to launch 80 Base Power priority moves off of one of the best offensive types in the game and an effective attack stat of 678 and a STAB move that destroys even the bulkiest of resists and obviously everything that doesn't resist it. In the same way, other stallbreakers such as Medicham, Heracross and Mega Gardevoir are a lot less effective than Mega Mawile against offense even outside of not having a priority move other than Mawile's Sucker Punch. As I said before, there's simply nothing that comes anywhere close to doing everything Mawile does and having the same attributes Mawile has, most Pokemon can be lucky to destroy either most stall or most offensive teams, and Mawile does both with very little trouble.

There's also its SubPunch set which, in my opinion, isn't close to as good as its standard Swords Dance set, but still has its uses. Some people argued that as soon as Heatran switches into Substitute, the jig is up and Heatran can switch out to something that deals with SubPunch Mawile, completely ignoring the fact that this not only pretty much requires you to run Venusaur and Heatran (as nothing on either your standard offensive or defensive team barring Venusaur and Physically Defensive Amoonguss can even switch into Focus Punch as well as its STAB moves) but also the fact that Mawile can simply go for a Focus Punch right off the bat as Heatran is usually a pretty safe first look and it doesn't require you to waste health on a Substitute. And while status might deal "decently" with Swords Dance Mawile, theres at least one Pokemon on your standard offensive team that has no problem taking that Will-O-Wisp such as Latios, especially after taking a clean 60% of your Rotom's health with Play Rough on the switch. People really need to stop looking at these situations as 1v1 battles and start thinking of them as "in common battle conditions". Mawile absolutely has no problem wearing down those counters or even killing them especially as Rotom-W is far from hard to switch into.

All in all Mega Mawile has all the tools to make it ridiculously difficult to stop with Offense, Balance and Stall alike such as its typing, its movepool, its stats and, of course, its powerful attacks. There's really nothing that beats it that isn't borderline gimmicky or just bad. The ease with which Mawile absolutely demolishes all styles of play is unbelievable and in my opinion, it deserves to be banned.

 

[Nachos]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-suspect-process-round-6-voting.3515641/

The voting thread is up. Some of you who've qualified won't be able to post yet, but I'm having someone sort that out shortly.

 

[Nix_Hex]

Although I'm going to repeat a lot of things other people, including Haunter, said before, I felt like stating my opinion on Mawile as well.

Mega Mawile has an unmatched combination of sweeping potential, wallbreaking potential, typing and the right stats/movepool to do exactly what it needs to do, that thing being absolutely terrorising teams of every playstyle. Nothing can even come close to having all these combined attributes to the same effect of Mawile, and its presence shapes the metagame like very little else, forcing offense to run stuff like Choice Specs Keldeo (which is, obviously, very good even without Mawile, but a lot more so with it around as it's one of the few Pokemon preventing offense from autolosing to Mega Mawile) or risk getting swept when it inevitably uses its above average defenses and unbelievably good typing to set up on very common Pokemon such as Latios, Latias, Azumarill, Ferrothorn, Talonflame locked into Brave Bird, or even Pokemon such as Terrakion and Hippowdon if the situation dictates it and Mawile both has the health to shrug off their hits and is in a position to sweep. People say how it's weak to ground and fire moves but considering that none of those even OHKO without both STAB and a good attack stat/boosting item backing it up, does it really matter? Mawile is sweeping a large portion of offensive teams with very little weakening and very little support whether it's at 50% or 20%. People also say that its Sucker Punch is "weak because it doesn't have STAB" which is pretty ridiculous. Again, does it really matter that you don't have STAB when your priority eclipses Arceus' Silk Scarf boosted Extremespeed in power? It's like people are looking for reasons this thing hasn't gotten quickbanned instead of reasons for it not getting banned. When you can set up on a huge portion of this tier and destrolish pretty much every offensive Pokemon in your path with Sucker Punch while doing the same to everything slower with Play Rough/Fire Fang and having what is without a doubt one of the best defensive typings in the whole game with the perfect ability pre-Mega Evolution to guarantee at least one turn of setup and the right stats to do exactly what you need to do, something seems very wrong.

And this doesn't even go into its ability to break Stall just as well. Stall has like 3 viable checks to it that aren't borderline shit, borderline gimmicky or both. Out of those three (Bulky Charizard Y, Mega Venusaur with Leech Seed/HP Fire or Sleep Powder/HP Fire and Defensive Heatran with Will-O-Wisp), the only one that is remotely hard to wear down is Heatran, who can't even do anything to you without Will-o-Wisp except Lava Pluming, hoping that it burns because it's not OHKOing, and then stalling you out with Protect. While you could argue "every sweeper sweeps with its counters gone", well, that's the point, Mawile's counters are not only extremely easy for a capable offensive team to wear down, but also aren't on every stall team as Pokemon such as Charizard X and Mega Scizor are used for their ability to check other offensive threats. "but Thundurus/Landorus don't need a lot of support to destroy defensive teams either and destroys stall cores without their dedicated counters", well, Thundurus and Landorus don't run around with Swords Dance and the ability to launch 80 Base Power priority moves off of one of the best offensive types in the game and an effective attack stat of 678 and a STAB move that destroys even the bulkiest of resists and obviously everything that doesn't resist it. In the same way, other stallbreakers such as Medicham, Heracross and Mega Gardevoir are a lot less effective than Mega Mawile against offense even outside of not having a priority move other than Mawile's Sucker Punch. As I said before, there's simply nothing that comes anywhere close to doing everything Mawile does and having the same attributes Mawile has, most Pokemon can be lucky to destroy either most stall or most offensive teams, and Mawile does both with very little trouble.

There's also its SubPunch set which, in my opinion, isn't close to as good as its standard Swords Dance set, but still has its uses. Some people argued that as soon as Heatran switches into Substitute, the jig is up and Heatran can switch out to something that deals with SubPunch Mawile, completely ignoring the fact that this not only pretty much requires you to run Venusaur and Heatran (as nothing on either your standard offensive or defensive team barring Venusaur and Physically Defensive Amoonguss can even switch into Focus Punch as well as its STAB moves) but also the fact that Mawile can simply go for a Focus Punch right off the bat as Heatran is usually a pretty safe first look and it doesn't require you to waste health on a Substitute. And while status might deal "decently" with Swords Dance Mawile, theres at least one Pokemon on your standard offensive team that has no problem taking that Will-O-Wisp such as Latios, especially after taking a clean 60% of your Rotom's health with Play Rough on the switch. People really need to stop looking at these situations as 1v1 battles or as "in common battle conditions". Mawile absolutely has no problem wearing down those counters or even killing them especially as Rotom-W is far from hard to switch into.

All in all Mega Mawile has all the tools to make it ridiculously difficult to stop with Offense, Balance and Stall alike such as its typing, its movepool, its stats and, of course, its powerful attacks. There's really nothing that beats it that isn't borderline gimmicky or just bad. The ease with which Mawile absolutely demolishes all styles of play is unbelievable and in my opinion, it deserves to be banned.

I want everyone who has qualified or is otherwise following this thread to read this post. THIS shows true knowledge of not only the metagame but the art of battling. I plea for current players to think critically as this user has while voting in this and any future tests. Best post I've seen since cathy wailed on some guy who said to cancel shoddy 2 (yes, that long).

 

[The Haymaker]

Unfortunately, what I expected after Aegislash's ban to Ubers is happening. Because of its ban, some Pokémon in OU have increased in usage and presented new problems to resolve, which could lead to a landslide of a few bans to rework the tier. There will always be at least 1 S-Rank Pokémon that is amazing, and M-Mawile doesn't even fall into that category. Sure, it has the raw power of Atlas, but lacks Aegislash's utility and sheer unpredictability (unless you use RestTalk, but I think I'm one of the only people who has), and I didn't even consider Aegi to be banworthy. At least it could go mixed to work around Will-o-Wisp more easily than Mawile, who must resort to Substitute. Mawile also struggles with faster Pokémon who can tank a Sucker Punch and revenge kill it (and there are admittedly quite a few) and random walls that can surprise it with Flamethrower or Fire Blast. Think before you ban something simply for its power, as it's not even considered to be the best sweeper in OU. As for breaking stall, it's much easier to do in general in the XY metagame than it was in BW/BW2 for several unfixable reasons, and that's just a sad truth we must learn. Sorry.

So...anyone else regretting or rethinking Aegislash's ban now?

 

[QuickBH]

Unfortunately, what I expected after Aegislash's ban to Ubers is happening. Because of its ban, some Pokémon in OU have increased in usage and presented new problems to resolve, which could lead to a landslide of a few bans to rework the tier. There will always be at least 1 S-Rank Pokémon that is amazing, and M-Mawile doesn't even fall into that category. Sure, it has the raw power of Atlas, but lacks Aegislash's utility and sheer unpredictability (unless you use RestTalk, but I think I'm one of the only people who has), and I didn't even consider Aegi to be banworthy. At least it could go mixed to work around Will-o-Wisp more easily than Mawile, who must resort to Substitute. Mawile also struggles with faster Pokémon who can tank a Sucker Punch and revenge kill it (and there are admittedly quite a few) and random walls that can surprise it with Flamethrower or Fire Blast. Think before you ban something simply for its power, as it's not even considered to be the best sweeper in OU. As for breaking stall, it's much easier to do in general in the XY metagame than it was in BW/BW2 for several unfixable reasons, and that's just a sad truth we must learn. Sorry.

So...anyone else regretting or rethinking Aegislash's ban now?

I hope Aegislash gets resuspected, but Aegislash didn't do anything that make Mega Mawile bad nor uncommon and Mega Mawile was always this stupid. It's a stallbreaker that 2hko's the entire team yet can almost always sweep offense with a +2 Sucker Punch or Play Rough, which is incredibly easy due to your good bulk and Intimidate letting you set up on a ton of relevant Pokemon. Also, Substitute avoids burns and even then generally you have to sack something (unless you're Heatran, but the fact that Heatran has to run WoW just to handle Mega Mawile is a sign of overcentralizing in itself) just to send the WoW user in.

It's completely ban worthy.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Unfortunately, what I expected after Aegislash's ban to Ubers is happening. Because of its ban, some Pokémon in OU have increased in usage and presented new problems to resolve, which could lead to a landslide of a few bans to rework the tier. There will always be at least 1 S-Rank Pokémon that is amazing, and M-Mawile doesn't even fall into that category. Sure, it has the raw power of Atlas, but lacks Aegislash's utility and sheer unpredictability (unless you use RestTalk, but I think I'm one of the only people who has), and I didn't even consider Aegi to be banworthy. At least it could go mixed to work around Will-o-Wisp more easily than Mawile, who must resort to Substitute. Mawile also struggles with faster Pokémon who can tank a Sucker Punch and revenge kill it (and there are admittedly quite a few) and random walls that can surprise it with Flamethrower or Fire Blast. Think before you ban something simply for its power, as it's not even considered to be the best sweeper in OU. As for breaking stall, it's much easier to do in general in the XY metagame than it was in BW/BW2 for several unfixable reasons, and that's just a sad truth we must learn. Sorry.

So...anyone else regretting or rethinking Aegislash's ban now?

Maw-M was a problem even with the Aegislash ban. Adding one pokemon that can handling it, somewhat well. (A lot of guess work in an Aegislash vs Maw-M match) So yeah. Also those random walls with Flamethrower/Fire Blast are not going to kill it and will get killed in return. As for will-o-wisp goes, it has been said, Will-o-wisp is not a reason for something not to be banned, as all physical attackers fear it, bar the guts and fire types. (PS Aegislash was mostly used as a Sp. Attacker) It has no problems destorying everything in its path once it gets in and that is the problem, is you are pretty much going to lose something each time it gets in.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Honestly, I've seen some interesting new arguements being posted these past few pages.

While mawile is versitile (subpunch or SD?) the same can be said for alot of pokemon, even breloom can deal with talonflame in most situations (toxicorb+sub/predicted spore/rocktomb) forcing you to "sap a mon" to take it out. (Superpower scizor with some speed investment to kill it's best counter heatran any1?)

It's a fact, mega mawile unboosted can without a doubt 2HKO the entire OU tier combined with her typing giving her only 2 weaknesses (ground/fire) which are easily handled by other OU pokemon. Being able to shake off would be issues like burn with ease (SD=negate burn) makes it extremely difficult to wear down.. especially with aegislash leaving and HW latias rising in usage.

I think she's ban worthy for her "huge power", priority, and typing.. versitility, and ease to fit on any team I find that rather biased and terrible arguements for any suspect.

However, we banned aegislash for coinflips it cause apparently (I agree with a retest.. 62% majority is litteraly just that 1 vote that banned him) and the same can be said for sucker punch as well.. while many use it like bisharp and such.. it does play a mid risk/high reward factor. Suspecting sucker punch for being a coinflip would be good, and without it, nerf mega mawile perhaps however until then if that ever happens.. she needs to go having access to it and over 200 base atk.

 

[Sandoori]

Unfortunately, what I expected after Aegislash's ban to Ubers is happening. Because of its ban, some Pokémon in OU have increased in usage and presented new problems to resolve, which could lead to a landslide of a few bans to rework the tier. There will always be at least 1 S-Rank Pokémon that is amazing, and M-Mawile doesn't even fall into that category. Sure, it has the raw power of Atlas, but lacks Aegislash's utility and sheer unpredictability (unless you use RestTalk, but I think I'm one of the only people who has), and I didn't even consider Aegi to be banworthy. At least it could go mixed to work around Will-o-Wisp more easily than Mawile, who must resort to Substitute. Mawile also struggles with faster Pokémon who can tank a Sucker Punch and revenge kill it (and there are admittedly quite a few) and random walls that can surprise it with Flamethrower or Fire Blast. Think before you ban something simply for its power, as it's not even considered to be the best sweeper in OU. As for breaking stall, it's much easier to do in general in the XY metagame than it was in BW/BW2 for several unfixable reasons, and that's just a sad truth we must learn. Sorry.

So...anyone else regretting or rethinking Aegislash's ban now?

I don't see what Aegislash has to do with anything, not only does its presence not really hold Mawile back at all but it's a very different Pokemon in general and the two shouldn't be compared. I wouldn't mind seeing Aegislash retested personally, but not for anything relating to Mawile.

Struggling with faster offensive threats that can handle Sucker Punch is certainly a thing, but most if not all of these threats can't switch into Play Rough or Focus Punch or...really anything that isn't Sucker Punch. If they have to come in after a kill, then Mawile's both pulled its weight for the match and will likely just switch out so it can come back and do it again later.

I'm also interested in hearing what walls you think beat her with surprise fire coverage, because even niche checks like Weezing lose to sets running specific moves (in that particular example, Iron Head).

as it's not even considered to be the best sweeper in OU.

I think the fact that a bulky 50 speed wallbreaker can even be considered a threatening sweeper as well should say a lot in itself.

 

[Srn]

Honestly, I've seen some interesting new arguements being posted these past few pages.

While mawile is versitile (subpunch or SD?) the same can be said for alot of pokemon, even breloom can deal with talonflame in most situations (toxicorb+sub/predicted spore/rocktomb) forcing you to "sap a mon" to take it out. (Superpower scizor with some speed investment to kill it's best counter heatran any1?)

It's a fact, mega mawile unboosted can without a doubt 2HKO the entire OU tier combined with her typing giving her only 2 weaknesses (ground/fire) which are easily handled by other OU pokemon. Being able to shake off would be issues like burn with ease (SD=negate burn) makes it extremely difficult to wear down.. especially with aegislash leaving and HW latias rising in usage.

I think she's ban worthy for her "huge power", priority, and typing.. versitility, and ease to fit on any team I find that rather biased and terrible arguements for any suspect.

However, we banned aegislash for coinflips it cause apparently (I agree with a retest.. 62% majority is litteraly just that 1 vote that banned him) and the same can be said for sucker punch as well.. while many use it like bisharp and such.. it does play a mid risk/high reward factor. Suspecting sucker punch for being a coinflip would be good, and without it, nerf mega mawile perhaps however until then if that ever happens.. she needs to go having access to it and over 200 base atk.

Well heatran clearly isn't scizor's best counter when it can't switch into a superpower,,,,,,,,,
Also suspecting sucker punch is a pretty bad idea, we don't ban moves unless they are incredibly unhealthy, and only mega mawile's sucker punches really approach that brokenness (if at all), as mega mawile is just far stronger.

 

[Slimmer]

I didnt ladder cuz I don't care too much about MegaMawile but here are my 2 cents:
MMawile is definitely the pokèmon with more firepower in the game, there is not no one mon else can hit harder than it. Its 105 atk base stat is to be considered doubled for Huge Power so its kinda 210. It is surely powerful. It got a very good typing, a decent bulkyness (tho it can stand many hits but in the most of cases it takes 2hko from 50% of the tier), a really useful setupping trait before evo (Intimidate) and a almost reliable priority. We all see it got its flaws, like every pokèmon (also Deoxys, or Genesect, got them), but the point of reasoning shouldn't be this.

Stop reasoning about ban judging only mon itself and its stats, movepool, etc. This is surely a point of discussing about ban/not ban but it's not the only point of view. We have to think about utility, and how it contributes (or harm) to the tier. Does MegaMawile help the tier? How?
My answer is: nope, Mega Mawile doesn't help the metagame in any way. It's just a powerful cleaner a good switch-in on balanced mon (or a "decent" check of dragons, especially latwins) and a very good wallbreaker. Can walls be beatable without it? Of course. Can the tier drastically change without it? And are we sure these changes will be an improvement, or is it just an assumption? Imho the tier doesn't care too much of MMawile, if not in better. There will be one powerful mon less, we can run everything also without it.

So the points are:
-1 Power of the mon itself -> Very powerful, one of the most powerful in the tier -> Banworthy
-2 Support needed -> Not too much, it supports itself with Intimidate, you just need to weaken a bit stuff like Rotom-W, Heatran, Keldeo -> still Banworthy imo, or at least Suspectworthy
-3 Utility in the metagame (the point I have explained above) -> Not basic -> A ban will not be a disgrace

So imho it should be banned.

About Aegislash/other stuff: there's the need to think clearly before banning etc.
Imho there aren't any "RBY Mewtwos" or "DPP Garchomps" in this tier, and starting ban something worse is a really bad sign cuz this would mean starting ban everything that can be annoying or hard to threat, but not so impossible: if a threats force in majority of its games to let it do its job without u can do nothing, well this is banworthy yeah; examples are Deoxys forms, BW Landorus, BatonPass (it should be totally banned tho), MegaGengar..
Does Aegi/Thundu/Char X always do whatever they want? Or are we too lazy to think and improve ourself before banhammering? js
The ban of stuff like Aegislash/Keldeo/Thundurus would mean the loss of most important offense checks (or revengekillers) to a lot of stuff (like fighting/dragons/faires/psychics/etc for Aegi, MegaGyara/MegaTar/MegaScizor etc for Keldeo, Talonflame/MegaPinsir/Keldeo/Landorus for Thundurus... Do u imagine what Landorus should do without Keldeo or Thundurus? lol)

 

[Siggu]

Its 105 atk base stat is to be considered doubled for Huge Power so its kinda 210. It is surely powerful.

Actually Huge Power doubles the final stat. So, with full investment, it's like having an impossible 259 base Attack :P

 

[The Haymaker]

I don't see what Aegislash has to do with anything, not only does its presence not really hold Mawile back at all but it's a very different Pokemon in general and the two shouldn't be compared. I wouldn't mind seeing Aegislash retested personally, but not for anything relating to Mawile.

Struggling with faster offensive threats that can handle Sucker Punch is certainly a thing, but most if not all of these threats can't switch into Play Rough or Focus Punch or...really anything that isn't Sucker Punch. If they have to come in after a kill, then Mawile's both pulled its weight for the match and will likely just switch out so it can come back and do it again later.

I'm also interested in hearing what walls you think beat her with surprise fire coverage, because even niche checks like Weezing lose to sets running specific moves (in that particular example, Iron Head).


I think the fact that a bulky 50 speed wallbreaker can even be considered a threatening sweeper as well should say a lot in itself.

Mawile can be considered to be a threatening sweeper for its access to SD and Sucker Punch to sweep frail, unprepared or weakened offensive teams. However, this can be said about several other fairly slow OU Pokémon with SD +priority, like Scizor/M-Scizor, Breloom, and Bisharp. It's also kind of grasping at straws to say that X check/counter is KO'ed by X coverage move because then it could be said that Gliscor can not comfortably wall Terrakion for fear of HP Ice, while it is very uncommon for Terrakion to carry HP Ice, but that's even more common than Iron Head Mawile, iirc. In reality, most Mawile run Fire Fang for coverage, but even then a notable number of Mawile forego coverage for Knock Off on SD sets.

To me, Mawile's inability to avoid being completely walled by something, depending on its coverage, keeps it from being broken. On SD sets, Fire Fang leaves it unable to do meaningful damage to Heatran and bulky Fire- and Poison-types, as Sucker Punch isn't reliable due to Will-o-Wisp/Roar. SubPunch is much less vulnerable to status and smashes Heatran, but tanks like physically bulky SD M-Scizor and Landorus-T, and Gengar (SubDisable or SubWisp, or both) can deal with it, since it lacks the power/coverage to muscle thru them.

Honestly, Kyurem-B is much scarier as a threat to stall with its almost perfect coverage in 3 moves and the ability to go mixed to beat would-be checks. Sure, it lacks priority to be as big of a threat to offensive teams, but it's also significantly faster and even quite a bit bulkier than M-Mawile, yet Kyurem-B struggles to see usage to remain OU and has fallen to BL at times.

 

[Punchshroom]

Mawile can be considered to be a threatening sweeper for its access to SD and Sucker Punch to sweep frail, unprepared or weakened offensive teams. However, this can be said about several other fairly slow OU Pokémon with SD +priority, like Scizor/M-Scizor, Breloom, and Bisharp. It's also kind of grasping at straws to say that X check/counter is KO'ed by X coverage move because then it could be said that Gliscor can not comfortably wall Terrakion for fear of HP Ice, while it is very uncommon for Terrakion to carry HP Ice, but that's even more common than Iron Head Mawile, iirc. In reality, most Mawile run Fire Fang for coverage, but even then a notable number of Mawile forego coverage for Knock Off on SD sets.

The power is the dealbreaker for MMawile here, because even when boosted, MScizor, Breloom, and even Bisharp's priority Punches do not threaten to OHKO half of the entire meta. You could say the same about Azumarill, but at least Azumarill can only set up once. There is also the issue of MMawile's bulk: either you let it set up and sac your mon, or hope that your revenge killer can take the boosted Sucker and OHKO MMawile (a big reason why Specs Keldeo is popular). Even the latter option isn't safe since MMawile can see the revenge killer coming in on its boosted move and simply attack, all while still packing enough power to wreck your current active mon even if you don't switch, because hey, 259 Attack man.

To me, Mawile's inability to avoid being completely walled by something, depending on its coverage, keeps it from being broken. On SD sets, Fire Fang leaves it unable to do meaningful damage to Heatran and bulky Fire- and Poison-types, as Sucker Punch isn't reliable due to Will-o-Wisp/Roar. SubPunch is much less vulnerable to status and smashes Heatran, but tanks like physically bulky SD M-Scizor and Landorus-T, and Gengar (SubDisable or SubWisp, or both) can deal with it, since it lacks the power/coverage to muscle thru them.

For the record, MMawile can attempt to play around Gengar by Sucker Punching on the turn it Disables, you'd be kind of fucked if MMawile is behind a Sub should that happen. Also, even if MMawile can be walled due to move restrictions, it is still a heavy guessing game for the opponent (provided he carries responses to both SubPunch and SD, which already puts a large strain on teambuilding in itself). Both sets carry Play Rough as their main attack, so it would still be impossible to deduce the set if it keeps spamming that, and it would be able to scout your MMawile switchins. If MMawile is a SubPunch variant, it may simply catch Heatran on the switch and end it there, damage done. If Mawile is an SD variant...well what do you even switch to besides Heatran? Aside from super niche options like Arcanine and Weezing which I will promptly censor out, nothing else can really take on a SD Mawile; defensive Landorus-T takes a hefty chunk from Play Rough, even Mega Venusaur stands a good chance to lose since it takes ~50% from +2 Play Rough and is forced into HP Fire / Synthesis mindgames against MMawile's Sucker Punch / Swords Dance mindgames.

Honestly, Kyurem-B is much scarier as a threat to stall with its almost perfect coverage in 3 moves and the ability to go mixed to beat would-be checks. Sure, it lacks priority to be as big of a threat to offensive teams, but it's also significantly faster and even quite a bit bulkier than M-Mawile, yet Kyurem-B struggles to see usage to remain OU and has fallen to BL at times.

Kyurem-B's main flaw is that its defensive typing is so much worse than Mega Mawile's, and it lacks a boosting move + priority. Even if Kyurem-B's wallbreaking prowess is comparable to MMawile's, MMawile has the potential to majorly threaten offensive teams at the same time, all while boasting easier switching opportunities.

 

[kumiko]

Mawile is an insanely good Pokemon. I love the thing, you can put it on almost any offensive team and have little regret, it will always do a lot of work every game. Mawile has a stronger Sucker Punch than a Bisharp, and nearly the same power as a Black Glasses Bisharp. It also has a far easier time setting up a Swords Dance than Bisharp. It has a far superior typing and some great defense. That's without even mentioning that pre-Mega Evolving it has Intimidate, which lets Mawile set up on a lot of physical threats with ease. Mega Mawile can tank an Earthquake from a -1 Garchomp with no HP/Defense investment. The fact Mawile can tank a STAB move from one of, if not the best, offensive ground types in the game shows that it can set up on a lot of things.

Another thing Mawile can do amazingly is destroy its supposed "checks". Heatran is commonly referred to as the premier Mawile check, but it can get destroyed by a Focus Punch, behind a Substitute or on the switch. SD Knock Off also beats the standard Heatran set, if Mawile is running 252 Spd. Landorus-Therian is another Mawile check, but it can't tank three Play Roughs, even if all are -1. Lando-T has no form of reliable recovery outside of Leftovers, so it can get worn down extremely easily by Mawile. Things like Mega Venusaur and Heatran together seem like they can beat Mawile, but they can't. The Four Attack Mawile set breaks this core with ease. Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Mega Scizor all lose to Fire Fang, which was the most common set near the end of Mega Mawile's time in OU.

The fact that people are saying the only true counters to Mawile are Defensive Mega Charizard Y, Arcanine, and Weezing makes it blatantly obvious Mawile is broken as fuck. Another thing to note is people use random Substitute users, like Sand Rush Excadrill and Greninja to beat the incoming Sucker Punch that would otherwise nail both Pokemon. Heatran and Talonflame both run Will-O-Wisp to seriously cripple Mawile for the rest of the game, which is huge if it works. All of these things won't be near as popular as they were before tomorrow, as beating Mawile was one of, if not the only reason, they were being used.

I honestly love using it, but it is just too good for the metagame. I voted ban without any regrets.

 

[Dee Train]

I voted ban for this one. Mawile is one of the few pokemon that is really hard to deal with. If you are playing a good player you cant get rid of it without at least losing one mon in most scenarios....or at the very least crippling one really badly. If it gets behind a sub its pretty much one mon plus crippling. Its also the low risk high reward...and yes sucker punch is not the most reliable ...its pretty damn good. Its raw power, good typing...good ability pre mega (making set up easier), lack of hard counters (heatran to sd sets not Sub punch...and the otherwise really poor weezing/arcanine/defensive zard y). Are reasons enough why this will in fact be getting the ban (confirmed earlier today I believe.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Sure Mawile is powerful and perhaps it's fair to test this out. I joined today because I don't really agree with the idea of Mawilite being banned, but if it turns out that it's too powerful for OU, then I'll try to suspect the decision.

Personally, I think that there's really not much use in this suspect test happening now. I think it would be better if we waited for ORAS to be released, see what kind of changes it brings to the meta and then proceed with testing and such.

 

[QuickBH]

Mega Mawile is already banned, you joined too late. It got a supermajority, anyways.