Gen 6 np: XY Ubers Shadow Tag Suspect Test - Stuck In The Middle With You

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Fireburn

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#1
Time for Round 2!

In this test, we will be examining the ability Shadow Tag to judge whether or not it is uncompetitive and needs to be removed from the metagame. This discussion is about the ability itself and not any specific abusers, so please bear that in mind.

The laddering phase of the suspect test will last until for three weeks until November 2nd, 11:59 EST. To get a chance to vote, you will need to achieve a COIL rating of 2400 or more on Showdown's Ubers (suspect test) ladder, which has now been reset. I encourage you to abuse Shadow Tag as much as possible while laddering, so that you will have a more informed opinion of what it can/can't do.

Once the laddering phase is over, we will have a week for voting. Those who vote will also be required to personally write a paragraph explaining why they voted for the option that they did. Votes that do not include a paragraph or which are based on poor reasoning will not be counted.

The purpose of this thread is to give you guys the opportunity to discuss the test while it's ongoing. However, it will be heavily moderated to keep the discussion focused and on-topic. Be polite when posting, and back up as much of your argument you can with data and examples rather than just throwing out baseless assumptions. Do not discuss any other potential suspect in this thread. There aren't going to be any. Also do not discuss how this ban will affect other metagames. It won't.

We will also be running a research tournament with Shadow Tag banned to gauge what the metagame would be like without it.

Happy laddering!

 
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Clone

No more next year
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#3
Could someone please explain why this test is for Shadow Tag and not for Gothitelle; the consensus for Mega Gengar was no ban, and Wobbuffet is not at the forefront of the issue.
I'm no expert at Ubers, nor did I vote, but if you looked at a lot of the reasonings for not banning gar, it was because many of those believed that it wasn't gar and instead Shadow Tag that was the problem, and that banning gar wasn't the right way to go about things.

Regardless, I'll edit in my thoughts in a bit. Just wanted to clear this up first.
 

Fireburn

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#4
We are having this test because a lot of people believed Shadow Tag itself was the problem rather than just Gengarite. This will settle the issue once and for all.

Focus on discussing the issue at hand please. The ladder will be up ASAP. :]

(if it wasn't clear that means stop asking why we're having the test)
 
#5
I wasnt expecting it to be suspected this quickly to be honest, i thought it would be after ubers open or something, although i guess it needs to be done before ORAS
 
#9
Before i bother wasting my time doing this like the last suspect test, the way you get people to vote by having such a low and easy to meet reqs ruins it for the people who focus on playing Ubers. Now, I say this because a statistic was shown to me (which I can't find at the moment and this is off the top of my head) well over 60% of the people who voted don't 'main' the Ubers tier, so you ask why this bothers me and other players? To put it simple to you guys the decision on not banning Gengar was pretty much forced by vote and biased leaders within the tier which don't even play anymore and have no idea of whats going on, so what I'm trying to say is 'What good is this going to do when its a majority vote and just an easy way for people to get a badge' this is the main issue which I feel needs to be dealt with, I'm not trying to sound elitest by using the 'listen to me i'm a well known player who knows what hes doing card' but I and others who also agree with me have a pretty good grasp of whats going on and what needs to be done to quite simply fix a tier which has gone to shit and is seen upon as a joke.

(apologies if parts of this don't make sense I'm drunk m8)
 
#10
Wobbuffet is kinda bad, it's not that great. I've never seen wobb+physical attacker to actually achieve anything in tournaments other than praying for good match up. So, for the rest of test, I'm not going to analyze wobbuffet.

Gengar has been discussed to death, and I've expressed my anti-ban sentiments about it. So yeah.

I've used Gothitelle extensively in ladder/tournament setting. I've found it to be very match up based. Basically, if your opponent don't prepare for goth, then he will lose. If he prepare for it, then you're stuck with a somewhat bad pokemon with 5 other pokemon. In my opinion, Goth makes stall and balance bad in this meta. That's how good goth is. I don't think that the fact that goth has terrible defensive typing is a problem. If you team needs XYZ mons to be removed, and goth can accomplish that role, then you can afford to not have XYZ answers. Basically, it's a team player indirectly by that way.

TR/HB goth sets are cool, but they have issues since they have limited trapping pool and very pursuit trappable. TR goth doesn't sweep at all. If you get a goth sweep, then your opponent is really bad. HB goth is specialized team player. So, I invented and used this goth set (Dice is a poser and didn't credit me in his thread smh).


Gothitelle @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 176 SpD / 84 Spe
Calm Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Rest
- Charm

Basically, this set escapes from all pursuiters by lowering atk before switching out. Lowering attack expands Goth's trapping pool to include non-taunt gliscor, non-uturn land-t, poisonceus (!!!), ferrothorn, heal block klefki (sad story: steel and me innovated this, only to be gunned down by me :( ), punishment arc, and few other mons. This thing is evil, and I encourage you all to use it.

As for my ban/anti-ban stance on goth... It's strong and restricts playstyles a lot. But, this is ubers and it doesn't matter if stall/balance are bad. So, I'm probably going to vote anti-ban unless someone can change my mind.
 

Karxrida

Adrift in the Flow of Fate
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#11
Quick question. If a Shadow Tag ban does happen, will it also apply to OU (the only other Meta where ST is legal) or just Ubers?
 

Edgar

Ban Celesteela
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#13
To be honest, I've lost a lot of interest in his suspect test, by the time we are going to see the results of it is going to be a long time, probably after ORAS is released which leads me to believe that the test doesn't really matter in the long run, we already know we're getting 2 extremely powerful Mega Evolutions in the form of Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza, I think we won't see Mega Gengar for a while since people will want to play their new toys. I know this is kinda off the topic but I'm thinking ahead of the metagame that will develope once ORAS comes out, right now I think that Shadow Tag might end up in a pointless ban because I think pokemon like Mega Gengar and Gothitelle will lose a lot of potential once such thing is out ( Their roles might be fulfilled even better than other mons), the one that I think that could be the good Shadow Tag user would be, ironically, the worst one right now, Wobbuffet, I would elaborate more but it would be off the topic and it's theorymoning anyways (if people wanna know my exact thoughts ask me on irc or PS). This something that I'd like to put thoughts into as it will influence my descision wheather Tag deserves to be banned and if manage to find motivation on doing this test.

With all that being said, I think Shadow Tag right now is rather uncompetitive, it puts the user in a way better position than the guy who's playing against it, the opponent has to make aggresive plays most of the time to beat it. Trying to counter it on teambuilder is kinda pointless because I'd rather almost ignore such thing and not run very sub-par sets such as Shed Shell Blissey than acomodating my whole team just so it can beat 2 pokemon that are very versatile and are 1 step ahead of you almost everytime, I'd rather just consider it a prominent weakness rather than making my team worse. I'm lazy to type the whole thing so I'd just end up saying Shadow Tag extremely limits teambuilding and during the battles, plays that you're allowed to make.
 

Fireburn

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#14
I can assure you that this test will definitely be completed before ORAS is released (which is why we're starting it now and shortening it to three weeks). There is no harm in revisiting a possible unban for Shadow Tag post-ORAS if it is banned now. I agree that ORAS could (and most likely will) shake things up but emphasis on could, and as you said talking about it now is pure theorymon.

Your decision for this test should focus on Shadow Tag in the context of the current metagame. Don't worry about ORAS yet, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. :]
 
#15
Didnt we just have a suspect ladder with the exact same rules? Is it really necessary to force everyone into laddering for reqs again?

Yes, it is the same because we are now testing something different and we want you to be able to use it on the ladder where you have room for experimentation (which is still happening with things like Heal Block Klefki and Charm Gothitelle made to counter said Klefki). - Fireburn

To tag onto this. You aren't "forced" to do anything. You ladder if you care enough about the metagame to do so. That's what the laddering phase is there for. ~MM2
 
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#16
I can assure you that this test will definitely be completed before ORAS is released (which is why we're starting it now and shortening it to three weeks). There is no harm in revisiting a possible unban for Shadow Tag post-ORAS if it is banned now. I agree that ORAS could (and most likely will) shake things up but emphasis on could, and as you said talking about it now is pure theorymon.

Your decision for this test should focus on Shadow Tag in the context of the current metagame. Don't worry about ORAS yet, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. :]
Wtf? Either Shadow Tag is uncompetitive or it is not. If it is uncompetitive, then it should be banned until its mechanics change. If it is not uncompetitive, then it should stay unbanned until its mechanics change. Wtf is this I hear about unbanning Shadow Tag after ORAS? Is ORAS going to change Shadow Tag mechanics such that it becomes more or less uncompetitive? If it isn't, then why would ORAS even affect the uncompetitiveness of Shadow Tag?

Pardon me but this entire "test" sounds like a sneaky method to ban overpowered Pokemon aka Gothitelle and Mega Gengar from Ubers and yet you also said Xerneas and Arceus will not be tested, aka hypocrisy.
 
#17
Wtf? Either Shadow Tag is uncompetitive or it is not. If it is uncompetitive, then it should be banned until its mechanics change. If it is not uncompetitive, then it should stay unbanned until its mechanics change. Wtf is this I hear about unbanning Shadow Tag after ORAS? Is ORAS going to change Shadow Tag mechanics such that it becomes more or less uncompetitive? If it isn't, then why would ORAS even affect the uncompetitiveness of Shadow Tag?

Pardon me but this entire "test" sounds like a sneaky method to ban overpowered Pokemon aka Gothitelle and Mega Gengar from Ubers and yet you also said Xerneas and Arceus will not be tested, aka hypocrisy.
Yeah I agree with this entire post bar the last part. If ORAS comes out, stag will still be uncompetitive if we decide to ban it for being so now. Since it IS uncompetitive oras wont change that at all, unless a) the mechanics get changed, which I highly doubt or b) the meta changes so much that stag doesnt get to have the chance to be uncompetitive anymore. Point b) may sound weird, but you could compare it to Wynaut. Wynaut sucks and no one is ever going to use it, buuut shadow tag IS uncompetitive. Wynaut gets killed by like every move, so it can't do anything with its uncompetitiveness. If, and only if, oras changes to a shitfest of primal don/mega rayq HO spam and gengar turns out to be near impossible to fit on a good team, deadweight vs most teams and downright bad, and so completely bad that it cannot abuse STAG anymore yeah THEN we should maybe unban it. I highly doubt this will happen, and I think it will still be able to abuse stag's uncompetitive aspects, just maybe a bit worse due to the presence of other mega's. The same goes for gothi of course, I doubt it will turn out be unviable so should just stay banned as it remains uncompetitive.

Yeah the last part of your comment just isn't true, that would be like saying we banned swagger for being overpowered.

e: also like jw, when will the suspect ladder be up?
 
#18
Before i bother wasting my time doing this like the last suspect test, the way you get people to vote by having such a low and easy to meet reqs ruins it for the people who focus on playing Ubers. Now, I say this because a statistic was shown to me (which I can't find at the moment and this is off the top of my head) well over 60% of the people who voted don't 'main' the Ubers tier, so you ask why this bothers me and other players? To put it simple to you guys the decision on not banning Gengar was pretty much forced by vote and biased leaders within the tier which don't even play anymore and have no idea of whats going on, so what I'm trying to say is 'What good is this going to do when its a majority vote and just an easy way for people to get a badge' this is the main issue which I feel needs to be dealt with, I'm not trying to sound elitest by using the 'listen to me i'm a well known player who knows what hes doing card' but I and others who also agree with me have a pretty good grasp of whats going on and what needs to be done to quite simply fix a tier which has gone to shit and is seen upon as a joke.

(apologies if parts of this don't make sense I'm drunk m8)
Ubers doesn't do suspect tests. The only times it has was for a publicity stunt in bw2 and now with the Tag stuff. Standard procedure is some sort of discussion thread followed by a executive decision from the tier leader.

The reason I'm mentioning this is to help understand that this procedure behind Tag is very much out of the ordinary. Normally, the tier leader is trusted to make the call on a ban or not because he is trusted to be knowledgeable enough about the Ubers metagame and its philosophy to do so. You may disagree with the logic but, in this exception case, we are breaking away quite far from traditional Ubers procedure. This includes an absolute focus on ensuring that the ban/no ban is decided by somebody with a very strong grasp on the meta. Instead, there's a much stronger focus on what the general playerbase feels on this issue which is defined by anybody who cares enough to invest the time into laddering and a minimalist filter on meta understanding.

Personally, I disagree with the break from tradition in the way this ban is being decided as well as the unusual cherry picking of abusers. However, it's not my call to decide these things. Additionally, the decision to do it this way is understandable. Complaints from Shadow Tag initially came from a very small minority of the dedicated and competent Ubers playerbase. The tier leader hasn't been actively playing the metagame himself for a while by the time these complaints manifested themselves in the form of an IS thread. Ways to address the issue with the metagame are proposed in many different formes from many different people. The decision involves the first potential ban of a Pokemon. It's a bit of a perfect storm concerning Ubers policy and not at all an easy decision to make. Following the traditional means of handling this would result in the valid criticism of making a decision on a metagame the tier leader no longer has an ample grasp of or folding to the pressure of a minority and banning something against his own personal beliefs. The only decent solution, which still has the complaints and flaws you are raising now, was to wash his hands of the business and let the people decide who they want to crucify.

So yeah, we are aware this procedure is awkward and flawed but you have to understand this is the best approach considering the strained circumstances. Please, make this easier on us and focus your posts on the subject of Shadow Tag and not on the process itself.

Also, keep in mind that Hugendugen is very much anti-ban and I strongly doubt he's the sort of guy to betray his own beliefs. If we didn't do it this way we'd be stuck with Shadow Tag in our metagame. This was his way of throwing us a bone. At least we have a chance at fixing this metagame, even if it involves teaching a bunch of scrubs how to play this game.

Wtf? Either Shadow Tag is uncompetitive or it is not. If it is uncompetitive, then it should be banned until its mechanics change. If it is not uncompetitive, then it should stay unbanned until its mechanics change. Wtf is this I hear about unbanning Shadow Tag after ORAS? Is ORAS going to change Shadow Tag mechanics such that it becomes more or less uncompetitive? If it isn't, then why would ORAS even affect the uncompetitiveness of Shadow Tag?

Pardon me but this entire "test" sounds like a sneaky method to ban overpowered Pokemon aka Gothitelle and Mega Gengar from Ubers and yet you also said Xerneas and Arceus will not be tested, aka hypocrisy.
What does ORAS have to do with Shadow Tag? It could change the mechanics of the ability. Stop reading malice into what fireburn posted. He's just acknowledging the fact that if circumstances change enough we can revisit previous decisions. This doesn't only apply to Shadow Tag.

Also, as apple pointed out, we could have another case of BW2 evasion on our hands where the abusers of the uncompetitive element all suck dicks to the point where they have no impact on the meta. But don't bother yourself with that nuance, you are clearly struggling with some sort of victim-complex and I'm not terribly interested in explaining one of the more complicated tidbits on the Ubers philosophy to somebody so biased and tunnel-visioned.

Wobbuffet is kinda bad, it's not that great. I've never seen wobb+physical attacker to actually achieve anything in tournaments other than praying for good match up. So, for the rest of test, I'm not going to analyze wobbuffet.

Gengar has been discussed to death, and I've expressed my anti-ban sentiments about it. So yeah.

I've used Gothitelle extensively in ladder/tournament setting. I've found it to be very match up based. Basically, if your opponent don't prepare for goth, then he will lose. If he prepare for it, then you're stuck with a somewhat bad pokemon with 5 other pokemon. In my opinion, Goth makes stall and balance bad in this meta. That's how good goth is. I don't think that the fact that goth has terrible defensive typing is a problem. If you team needs XYZ mons to be removed, and goth can accomplish that role, then you can afford to not have XYZ answers. Basically, it's a team player indirectly by that way.

TR/HB goth sets are cool, but they have issues since they have limited trapping pool and very pursuit trappable. TR goth doesn't sweep at all. If you get a goth sweep, then your opponent is really bad. HB goth is specialized team player. So, I invented and used this goth set (Dice is a poser and didn't credit me in his thread smh).


Gothitelle @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 176 SpD / 84 Spe
Calm Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Rest
- Charm

Basically, this set escapes from all pursuiters by lowering atk before switching out. Lowering attack expands Goth's trapping pool to include non-taunt gliscor, non-uturn land-t, poisonceus (!!!), ferrothorn, heal block klefki (sad story: steel and me innovated this, only to be gunned down by me :( ), punishment arc, and few other mons. This thing is evil, and I encourage you all to use it.

As for my ban/anti-ban stance on goth... It's strong and restricts playstyles a lot. But, this is ubers and it doesn't matter if stall/balance are bad. So, I'm probably going to vote anti-ban unless someone can change my mind.
Sorry to single you out mate but you are the first to do it so...

This is exactly the type of post you guys should avoid. Yes, I know the Gengarite suspect part of this made this shit all wonky and confusing but we aren't here asking the question about the impact of specific abusers on the metagame. You should approach the topic of Shadow Tag directly and talk about how it may or may not be in contradiction to the philosophy of Ubers. Just because there's some dumb telephone effect going on, I'm going to give you the definition of the Ubers philosophy again and with a direct quote that you can even click on to visit the actual post.
Ubers is the competitive metagame with the least amount of bans – we have no Pokemon banned in fact.
 
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#19
What does ORAS have to do with Shadow Tag? It could change the mechanics of the ability. Stop reading malice into what fireburn posted. He's just acknowledging the fact that if circumstances change enough we can revisit previous decisions. This doesn't only apply to Shadow Tag.

Also, as apple pointed out, we could have another case of BW2 evasion on our hands where the abusers of the uncompetitive element all suck dicks to the point where they have no impact on the meta. But don't bother yourself with that nuance, you are clearly struggling with some sort of victim-complex and I'm not terribly interested in explaining one of the more complicated tidbits on the Ubers philosophy to somebody so biased and tunnel-visioned.
Precedence is that mechanics change only rarely, with the major changes only when the generation changes (e.g. permanent weather change last generation). This means ORAS is unlikely - I admit not certain however - to change Shadow Tag mechanics. It's also irrelevant. For the purposes of this post assume ORAS does not change Shadow Tag mechanics.

If ORAS does not change Shadow Tag mechanics, and if Shadow Tag is uncompetitive now, then it will still be uncompetitive in ORAS even if all the Shadow Taggers suck dick. All the arguments like "it removes choice" that deal only with Shadow Tag and not Mega Gengar / Goth / Wobb remain true. Hence if you are arguing that Shadow Tag is uncompetitive, you have to argue also that Shadow Tag should remain banned even if all the Shadow Taggers suck dick, because it still removes choice and is therefore still uncompetitive. It may have no impact but it is still uncompetitive. BW2 may not have banned evasion but if evasion is uncompetitive, and if uncompetitive elements are to be banned, then BW2 should ban evasion. If Swagger is banned because it is uncompetitive then it should remain banned in ORAS as well unless the mechanics change.

The very idea that Shadow Tag could cease to be banned in ORAS implies either:

1) ORAS is likely to change Shadow Tag mechanics
2) Shadow Tag isn't uncompetitive
3) Shadow Tag is uncompetitive only because Mega Gengar and Gothitelle exist

1 is unlikely, 2 goes against your premise and 3 is just an excuse to ban Mega Gengar and Gothitelle for being overpowered. It doesn't even make sense how you can say evasion abusers suck dick in BW2 so no ban and yet tell orch to focus on Shadow Tag only, or how you imply that Shadow Tag is uncompetitive only because Mega Gengar and Gothitelle don't suck dick yet you also say that we are not banning Pokemon from Ubers. You and Fireburn may have the best of intentions and just want to see a fun balanced tier but I'm seeing this entire test as a hidden attempt to ban Pokemon from Ubers by pretending the suspect is Shadow Tag, which is wordplay just like the fancy insult in your last sentence. I may consider a Shadow Tag ban but the way this test is set up I'm going to vote NO BAN.
 
#20
yeah, this is exactly what I was afraid of going into with you. just going to make this short


you are mixing things up and confusing things. it's understandable cause there's some tricky nuances but all the same.

first off, i don't give two shits how unlikely tag mechs will change in oras. point was that fireburn was simply acknowledging the possibility

secondly, ubers doesn't just ban things if something is uncompetitive. it's even harder to ban something in ubers, it has to be uncompetitive and relevant to the metagame. we aren't going to ban something (like evasion)if nobody is going to use it, that would be pointless.

thirdly, orch's post isn't challenging whether or not tag is relevant in the metagame. i hope nobody challenges that cause it should be really fucking obvious to anybody who's played 5 mins of ubers. the post he made was analyzing the tag abusers one by one and describing how they interact with the meta. we don't give two shits about if stall or offense or whatever is viable or not and we don't care how well tag mons matchup up against different archetypes. we've already p much established tag mons are good enough to be relevant. now all that's left is to determine if tag is uncompetitive and then we'll know if to ban or not.

If you still have concerns on this subject just pm me or something. I'd like this thread to finally get to talking about tag and not everything around it.

btw, those "insults" weren't there to be mean, they were just plainly stating what's wrong with your approach. you are afraid of some sort of conspiracy or something where we are trying to pull a fast one on you (victim complex) and are thus jumping at any and every remote comment that could be twisted into a sign of banning for reasons other than the ones being stated instead of looking to understand the point we are trying to convey. (the bias and tunnel vision) i'd use softer words if i knew them
 
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SparksBlade

try not to mess it up with robots from your garage
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#21
although i'm sure i won't reach 2400, i'll still play, so i hope i'm allowed to discuss here if i don't meet reqs.

The problem with Shadow Tag, as i see it, is that limits your teambuiling. I mean, you can't have more that one 'mon that's weak to any of those possessing this ability. It's sad that you have to build your team and check that it isn't super weak to the major threats and playstyles, and then go back to check whether everyone can do something against Shadow Tag users. Just one bad play, or an unlucky phaze, and you'll either be losing a very valuable member(valuble in the sense valuable in that matchup), or be swept 'cos neither can you switch nor can you harm the STag user. The sweep may be stoppable 'cos you've an answer to that 'mon, but you get what i mean. STag is the reason Shed Shell Blissey became popular, and Chansey sort of became unviable. Now it's quite difficult to talk about how STag affects the meta without being particular about the users 'cos they all work differently, so even if your team could counter MGar, it may have trouble against Goth or Wobbufet. So i vote BAN whenever i get to 2400(if i ever do actually)

This neat MM2?
 
#22
although i'm sure i won't reach 2400, i'll still play, so i hope i'm allowed to discuss here if i don't meet reqs.

The problem with Shadow Tag, as i see it, is that limits your teambuiling. I mean, you can't have more that one 'mon that's weak to any of those possessing this ability. It's sad that you have to build your team and check that it isn't super weak to the major threats and playstyles, and then go back to check whether everyone can do something against Shadow Tag users. Just one bad play, or an unlucky phaze, and you'll either be losing a very valuable member(valuble in the sense valuable in that matchup), or be swept 'cos neither can you switch nor can you harm the STag user. The sweep may be stoppable 'cos you've an answer to that 'mon, but you get what i mean. STag is the reason Shed Shell Blissey became popular, and Chansey sort of became unviable. Now it's quite difficult to talk about how STag affects the meta without being particular about the users 'cos they all work differently, so even if your team could counter MGar, it may have trouble against Goth or Wobbufet. So i vote BAN whenever i get to 2400(if i ever do actually)
This neat MM2?
A for effort. However, limiting teambuilding =/= uncompetitive. Ubers could become like RBY OU where there are only variations of the single, same build and still be completely competitive and in line with the ubers philosophy.
 
#24
Does this suspect mean that Gengarite is effectively banned from the metagame? Because how can one use Mega Evolve Gengar without using Shadow Tag?
 
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