It will most likely end up back in uu after it has been retested. The uu council is just banning everything that is potentially broken
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np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]
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Wow that is totally not how you play.
if you have a cloyster on your team, you switch it into zygarde AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
I don't know how zygarde is getting to +4 before cloyster even switches in. Even if he coils on the first turn, icicle spear still OHKO's unless hes running defensive EV's but we all know sub coil prefers to run special defense.
252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 420-500 (100 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
if we're going to judge based on four free turns, then everything with coverage that can't be completely immune walled needs to be banned because 4 free turns would let me substitute, shell smash twice and baton pass to anything, without the sub breaking, no less. So unless someone is trapped AND choiced into a move you're immune to, this calc is completely unrealistic and it does nothing to prove that zygarde is broken in UU. All that it proves is that against idiotic players you can sweep with zygarde, but it's a well known fact that against idiotic players you can sweep with just about anything.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-103063612
Yea, I agree with the decision to temp ban Zygarde. Its ridiculously easy to set up and can run a mean offensive DD set that screws with a lot of Subcoils checks. I've seen people running Glaciate on Victini out of pure desperation because of this thing.
Yea, I agree with the decision to temp ban Zygarde. Its ridiculously easy to set up and can run a mean offensive DD set that screws with a lot of Subcoils checks. I've seen people running Glaciate on Victini out of pure desperation because of this thing.
I dont find Tornadus to be that broken.. However, Zygarde (specially with Coil) is quite the pain as it can destroy almost everything if yu are not ready.. It definetely deserves to be BL ;]
all I see is people saying its hard to deal with but there are barely any facts. Zygarde counters are limited sure, but not nearly as limited as something faster like houndoom, which bests even some of the strongest special walls in the tier.
could someone explain to me why zygarde is so threatening without the whole... "Oh hes 2gud at +4 and hes my cosins faverit n reks evrything so ban pls" ?
I find it hard to call something OP when when it has over 5 legit, solid counters
could someone explain to me why zygarde is so threatening without the whole... "Oh hes 2gud at +4 and hes my cosins faverit n reks evrything so ban pls" ?
I find it hard to call something OP when when it has over 5 legit, solid counters
Did you even read my second post? Lol
Ok also why are you acting like you're a god and know everything about the tier lol. And cousins favorite? What the hell are you even saying? Secondly mega houndoom is revenged by common scarfers such as darm or mienshao. If you think mega houndoom is more broken then zygarde you clearly haven't played enough uu in general or against enough good players.
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Here's the thing; very few of Zygarde's limited number of checks can safely and immediately threaten him (I'll be referring to the Subcoil 252hp/2xxspd careful set in this post) aside from cloyster and can't really stop him from racking up a lot of residual damage from d-tail phazing+hazards.
None of the tier's bulky waters can break Zygarde's substitutes unless they are running offensive ev's or Ice Beam, and even if they are...
Not even a 2hko from the tier's premier bulky water. Keep in mind many bulky waters often don't run Ice Beam, especially Suicine. Meanwhile Zygarde phazes him out and in comes Victini, or Hippodown or Heracross of one of the many things that can't really threaten Zygarde, and he's sitting at 65%+ health with +1 def/atk. Zygarde can easily phaze again or grab another boost, or set up a sub while your team is eating up residual damage while Zygarde slowly recuperates his health with leftovers.
Phazing from the like of M-Aggron, Hippodown or bulky waters simply will not work, because Zygarde will outspeed and phaze them first with D-tail.
One counter you didn't list is physically defensive Florges, which is one of the best switch-ins to Zygarde since he can't be phazed. Even then he needs to be near 100% healthy since Zygarde can muscle through him with EQ if you wish with just a little bit of residual damage, while Florges is doing 40 - 47.6% with moonblast.
it took me way too long to notice that i was the guy in drawler's replay lol
but yeah there are way too little reliable counters to subcoil zygarde (except for togetic but i havent seen it once since hydreigon got the boot and it's not that great anyway). it takes hits pretty easily, sets up sub, and gets boosts up while the opponent is just sitting there trying to break the aforementioned sub, and eventually it'll be at a point where zygarde is pretty much ready to sweep your entire team, since it's so goddamn bulky. and like drawler said, zygarde's sitting at an impressive base 95 speed, where the most common phazers are outsped by it. the fact that it can phaze so easily while doing hefty amounts of damage at the same time is pretty broken imo, especially when coupled with hazards.
but yeah there are way too little reliable counters to subcoil zygarde (except for togetic but i havent seen it once since hydreigon got the boot and it's not that great anyway). it takes hits pretty easily, sets up sub, and gets boosts up while the opponent is just sitting there trying to break the aforementioned sub, and eventually it'll be at a point where zygarde is pretty much ready to sweep your entire team, since it's so goddamn bulky. and like drawler said, zygarde's sitting at an impressive base 95 speed, where the most common phazers are outsped by it. the fact that it can phaze so easily while doing hefty amounts of damage at the same time is pretty broken imo, especially when coupled with hazards.
I'm not trying to, I just don't know why everyone making zygarde out to be a giant threat when he has very many counters, its a little hard to take you seriously when you're basing your reason for ban based on a +4 calculation.
Slowbro being the main counter, counters every possible set, phasing him out just lets him recover HP, at no point is zygarde at an advantage.
Cloyster switches in and OHKO's unless zygarde just sits there spamming dragon tail, which wont do very much to cloyster and cloyster OHKO's no matter what set or what move zygarde is used.
Again Suicune with ice beam, counters most sets, puts phasing sets in an uncomfortable position, has rest talk recovery
Crobat switches in, handles any move + Espeed (yes even stone edge) and can toxic though substitute, effectively shutting ANY zygarde down.
Mew 2HKO's with Ice beam, can knock off his leftovers, has recovery, can phase him out and remove boosts, faster than coil sets and has will-o-wisp
Mega Blastoise also 2HKO's with ice beam, and can tank any of his attacks.
Cresselia 3HKO with ice beam, has recovery, zygarde does so little damage, dragon tails barely do more than lefties recovery.
Tangrowth - Can't be touched, 3HKO's with HP Ice, 2HKO's rarely when invested, still can't be touched, phasing recovers HP.
And these are just things A- Rank Viability and Up, if you really can't aford one of these very useful pokemon on your team, I can't help you.
Aside from cloyster theres 6 A+ rank viable pokemon you overlooked that are COUNTERS.
Counter does not have to 2HKO if zygarde cannot even 3HKO the counter, zygarde does not have a recovery move it does not need to do over 56%
phasing sets are completely walled by several common pokemon and/or lack set up and are rarely as threatening because of this.
physically defensive florges works as a zygarde counter but then you would be running exclusively for zygarde, which would be bad. Florges covers much more going specially defensive.
The problem is that Zygarde is overcentralizing as hell. All of your counters are using Ice Beam or hp Ice, which most of the case only hits Zygarde harder given that most dragons are gone. With just SR, many 'counters' like Cloyster and Suicune will be wrecked thanks to lack of recovery. Using Ice Beam on Mew as a 'counter' is completely ridiculous and Zygarde can even speed creep defensive Mew and set up on its face. Basically, most teams are forced to run ice moves on a random pokemon in order to beat it. DD Zygarde is also pretty ridiculous against offense too. Common scarfers except Mienshao fails to outspeed and deal major damage to it and it is quite easy to set up thanks to its great bulk.
Tornadus-T is broke as hell. It can come in pretty easily with its bulk and typing, Knock something Off then U-turn out unscathed thanks to Regenetator and its insane speed. It is impossible to wear down even you toxiced it. Not to mention how good flying STAB is and it has the coverage moves to back it up, making it impossible to counter in the strictest sense. It cripple teams far too easily to be in the tier.
Tornadus-T is broke as hell. It can come in pretty easily with its bulk and typing, Knock something Off then U-turn out unscathed thanks to Regenetator and its insane speed. It is impossible to wear down even you toxiced it. Not to mention how good flying STAB is and it has the coverage moves to back it up, making it impossible to counter in the strictest sense. It cripple teams far too easily to be in the tier.
Shiny, I don't think you see the point. If you want to beat SubCoil Zygarde, you are forced to run HP Ice or Ice Beam. This a pretty good indication or the power of a single Pokemon. The ability to set up a sub, get 1-2 coils, then effectively phase the team around is almost too good to pass up. There are few, if any, base 100 speed pokes that actually run whirlwind or roar. Due to this fact, Zygarde can phase anything out before itself being phased. Another benefit to using Zygarde is its immense bulk coupled with its typing. It posses one quad weakness, and two regular weaknesses. It can take grass and water types with ease while setting up.
I ran 80 speed on Zygarde to outspeed standard WoW Mew, and that has not been an issue. Night Shade cannot break the sub, and it if you pair it up with hazards, you basically damaged all the mon's on the other team before you are forced to sack. I don't think you've played against someone who used SubCoil Zygarde effectively.
We are not saying it is banned because it is un-counterable, but because the counters are few and ineffective in standard play. I, personally, do not run into Ice Beam Mew, Suicine, or Slowbro. If one were to run Mew, it is most likely the Roost, Defog, Psyshock, WoW set. Suicine is a RestTalk set with either roar or CM, and Slowbro (If not specs) Runs Toxic/Twave, Scald, Psyshock, and Slack Off. Zygarde has no issue coming in, setting up, and proceeded to inflict hurt on the other team.
I ran 80 speed on Zygarde to outspeed standard WoW Mew, and that has not been an issue. Night Shade cannot break the sub, and it if you pair it up with hazards, you basically damaged all the mon's on the other team before you are forced to sack. I don't think you've played against someone who used SubCoil Zygarde effectively.
We are not saying it is banned because it is un-counterable, but because the counters are few and ineffective in standard play. I, personally, do not run into Ice Beam Mew, Suicine, or Slowbro. If one were to run Mew, it is most likely the Roost, Defog, Psyshock, WoW set. Suicine is a RestTalk set with either roar or CM, and Slowbro (If not specs) Runs Toxic/Twave, Scald, Psyshock, and Slack Off. Zygarde has no issue coming in, setting up, and proceeded to inflict hurt on the other team.
Honestly, are you special? Did you read the other post I made? I know you didn't it's on page nine and it's too hard on my phone to quote two things. Read it before you go on another tangent of you being superior to everyone else. Secondly these "counters" would be useless if there was no zygarde on the opposing team. Cresselia doesn't run Ice beam and neither does cune. Tangrowth also doesn't run hp ice unless you're using bt's garbo sets. Lastly mew doesn't run ice beam either. I don't know what meta you're playing but it's not the same one as me.
Edit: I'm sorry if I'm being harsh here but really come on bro. No one runs all these mons with ice beam or hp ice.
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Shiny Minun , I'll break this down a bit:
Slowbro: Only the AV set can really afford to fit Ice Beam. AV sets aren't nearly as physically bulky as standard CMBro. You can argue Scald, but ChestoRest DD is eating that for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Ernesto edit: Saying Slowbro couldn't fit Ice Beam on defensive sets is a really lame argument, since it always ran it in OU specifically for dragons. I suggest you actually use physically defensive Slowbro w/o CM before saying that. However, I'd argue Zyggy was the main reason to use IB in the first place (even with Hax) because otherwise your best counter loses.
Cloyster: Beats SubCoil. Don't see it fairing too well against DD sets, especially any DD set that uses Stone Edge.
Suicune: I'm sorry, but CroCune isn't running Ice Beam and it's the only set that runs RestTalk. CroCune vs. SubCoil Ziggy is iffy on both sides if it's a last Pokemon scenario. Offensive CM and the odd SubCM Cune are the only 2 sets that run Ice Beam, neither of which run much in the way of defensive investment.
Crobat: Once more, ChestoRest DD is killing Crobat since it dgaf about Toxic. Beats SubCoil, utter setup fodder to ChestoRest DD.
Mew: And tell me how you're fitting Ice Beam on to this thing. Tell me how. Yeah, you're not. The simple fact you're considering running Ice Beam on Mew should show you how powerful Zygarde was/is.
Mega Blastoise: I'll grant you that one, but it had better be in good shape. +1 Adamant Zygarde Outrage does around 70%. Some prior damage means it goes down to standard DD. ChestoRest DD needs a little more prior damage, but it's still doing around 60% with +1 EQ.
Cresselia: Granted. Won't fight this one off, but it isn't exactly super common...
Tangrowth: Awkward matchup. No clue how you fit HP Ice onto Tangrowth in the first place, but yeah. SubCoil kills this thing (eventually) Any non-Sub set gets put to sleep though (ChestoRest set has its Chesto Berry used up much sooner than it would like)
Yeah, just because something can actually deal with SubCoil Zygarde doesn't make it fullproof. Anything that relies on status is getting destroyed by ChestoRest DD. Any bulky Pokemon expecting a SubCoil set may be ruined by a DD set that uses 252 Attack Adamant nature. (aka all of them) THAT is/was the problem with Zygarde. There are answers to SubCoil, but most of them get wrecked by another set that's just as viable.
Slowbro: Only the AV set can really afford to fit Ice Beam. AV sets aren't nearly as physically bulky as standard CMBro. You can argue Scald, but ChestoRest DD is eating that for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Ernesto edit: Saying Slowbro couldn't fit Ice Beam on defensive sets is a really lame argument, since it always ran it in OU specifically for dragons. I suggest you actually use physically defensive Slowbro w/o CM before saying that. However, I'd argue Zyggy was the main reason to use IB in the first place (even with Hax) because otherwise your best counter loses.
Cloyster: Beats SubCoil. Don't see it fairing too well against DD sets, especially any DD set that uses Stone Edge.
Suicune: I'm sorry, but CroCune isn't running Ice Beam and it's the only set that runs RestTalk. CroCune vs. SubCoil Ziggy is iffy on both sides if it's a last Pokemon scenario. Offensive CM and the odd SubCM Cune are the only 2 sets that run Ice Beam, neither of which run much in the way of defensive investment.
Crobat: Once more, ChestoRest DD is killing Crobat since it dgaf about Toxic. Beats SubCoil, utter setup fodder to ChestoRest DD.
Mew: And tell me how you're fitting Ice Beam on to this thing. Tell me how. Yeah, you're not. The simple fact you're considering running Ice Beam on Mew should show you how powerful Zygarde was/is.
Mega Blastoise: I'll grant you that one, but it had better be in good shape. +1 Adamant Zygarde Outrage does around 70%. Some prior damage means it goes down to standard DD. ChestoRest DD needs a little more prior damage, but it's still doing around 60% with +1 EQ.
Cresselia: Granted. Won't fight this one off, but it isn't exactly super common...
Tangrowth: Awkward matchup. No clue how you fit HP Ice onto Tangrowth in the first place, but yeah. SubCoil kills this thing (eventually) Any non-Sub set gets put to sleep though (ChestoRest set has its Chesto Berry used up much sooner than it would like)
Yeah, just because something can actually deal with SubCoil Zygarde doesn't make it fullproof. Anything that relies on status is getting destroyed by ChestoRest DD. Any bulky Pokemon expecting a SubCoil set may be ruined by a DD set that uses 252 Attack Adamant nature. (aka all of them) THAT is/was the problem with Zygarde. There are answers to SubCoil, but most of them get wrecked by another set that's just as viable.
I used the five you gave as examples of counters earlier in this thread. Of them, one isn't an actual counter (M-Aggron, I don't even think he's a check), two have to run Ice Beam and even then don't really threaten Zygarde or stop him from phazing shit around (Suicine & Slowbro).
It does if you don't want Zygarde to simply phaze your "counter" out and force you to run several team members through stealth rock+d-tail and possibly spikes damage.
Again, it doesn't mean much if they wall him because he'll either use them as setup bait or phaze them out. Being able to set up on so much of the meta while being able to phaze his checks and counters at little risk to himself is what makes Zygarde so dangerous.
Eonx covered the others you listed, and even then he was being a bit geneous imo (M-Blastoise is hideously vulnerable to the residual damage that subcoil is so good at racking up).
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Slowbro likes running ice beam, there are threats in the game it handles and it has good synergy with water, hitting the grass types that resist water.
Theres useful things to take out with it, scarf flygon for example, slowbro loves switching in on them.
I don't get why everyone wants to run mono-attack suicune, its a great way to get yourself walled by many of the grass types in the tier as well as getting completely wrecked by anything with with water immune. (common in gastrodon)
Crobat dismantles non-rest zygarde out without using an ice move at all.
Honestly I don't understand everyone's stigma with ice beam here, a threat emerges and its the easiest way to take it out, if something is broken every time you have to slightly adjust move sets for it then I'm surprised Ubers isn't half the dex by now. The only reason zygarde posses a threat to you is because you're ignoring it, it's an oversight on your part because there are more than enough GOOD COUNTERS in the UU tier where you should not be hard pressed having to deal with it.
first of all, the heck is your problem buddy? of course I'm a special attacker!
And yeah I read your post on page 9, you're like gaise it 2HKO's its counters if you give it 4 free turns, and then you talk about phasing and rocks but the phasing sets are much easier to take out, and MAggon also does this, should we ban it too?
And then you say that Cloyster is the only counter which I've more than disproved.
Now you're saying these counters would be USELESS without zygarde? they're all top of the line pokemon, the lowest one is tangrowth, at A- Viability.
That's like saying you should ban swampert because it makes mega manectric run HP Grass. I really can't wrap my head around this logic. This is an example but I need you to realize that megaman runs HP grass in UU to deal with things in UU. Pokemon in UU will have to adapt to deal with zygarde because they can and stretching is no reason to ban a pokemon, unless its totally bottle-necking the whole tier, which Zygarde barely does.
What is so 4mSS about slowbro now, the usual is scald Ice beam toxic and recovery, what is he running, psychic? with all the darks running around?
Physically defensive slowbro counters every set, zygarde simply cannot touch him, setting up on him only nets him an early grave.
Suicune is a great user of ice beam, but everyone's stuck into the one set and refuse to deviate. You've brought up a grand total of 1 set for this thing, I am to assume that outside mono-attacking, suicune is completely and utterly useless?
Rest sets either have less protection than sub sets or suffer from lack of coverage.
Mew can still run knock off, defog and recovery, this is also a pokemon capable of countering every zygarde set.
Mega Blastoise is still capable of countering every set, which is your main complaint about him, no?
Tangrowth usually runs mix, I'll admit that putting HP ice on it is a bit of a stretch, but its adapting to the metagame threats instead of banning everything that isn't 2HKO'd by the only coverage you don't refuse to carry.
I should also mention here that, brongzong while not very popular, completely craps all over zygarde, allowing him ample time to set up dual screens, and then is able to to depense zygarde away with a few HP ice, this also gives other pokemon protection from zygardes boosted attacks, so it has much more checks. If you don't let the metagame evolve every time a new threat appears then it will get stale very fast. There are plenty of ways to deal with zygarde but the only argument I've seen is "Well _____ does not like to run that" or "well dang that's unpopular". Not to say I don't understand the nature of these test bans, I'm not against Zygarde being tested, but I think the only reason he's being perceived as broken is because the community here refuses to bend for any new threats.
My main point is that if Houndoomite is UU, then I don't see a reason why Zygarde should be BL'd
Mega Houndoom is a much bigger threat than Zygarde, and barely has any counters, where zygarde has plenty but the community refuses to use them.
Also things like physically defensive florges completely prevent phase intirely
Edit: Don't think I'm only scraping the bottom of the barrel here, I've only taken the top pokemon in UU. Example: Quagsire also counters -every set- but I don't mention it because its unpopular.
And I'm gonna put this here again. The heck is P.def slowbro running that is so dang important? Ice beam was near staple on this guy, now everyones saying hes got no room for it.
Theres useful things to take out with it, scarf flygon for example, slowbro loves switching in on them.
I don't get why everyone wants to run mono-attack suicune, its a great way to get yourself walled by many of the grass types in the tier as well as getting completely wrecked by anything with with water immune. (common in gastrodon)
Crobat dismantles non-rest zygarde out without using an ice move at all.
Honestly I don't understand everyone's stigma with ice beam here, a threat emerges and its the easiest way to take it out, if something is broken every time you have to slightly adjust move sets for it then I'm surprised Ubers isn't half the dex by now. The only reason zygarde posses a threat to you is because you're ignoring it, it's an oversight on your part because there are more than enough GOOD COUNTERS in the UU tier where you should not be hard pressed having to deal with it.
first of all, the heck is your problem buddy? of course I'm a special attacker!
And yeah I read your post on page 9, you're like gaise it 2HKO's its counters if you give it 4 free turns, and then you talk about phasing and rocks but the phasing sets are much easier to take out, and MAggon also does this, should we ban it too?
And then you say that Cloyster is the only counter which I've more than disproved.
Now you're saying these counters would be USELESS without zygarde? they're all top of the line pokemon, the lowest one is tangrowth, at A- Viability.
That's like saying you should ban swampert because it makes mega manectric run HP Grass. I really can't wrap my head around this logic. This is an example but I need you to realize that megaman runs HP grass in UU to deal with things in UU. Pokemon in UU will have to adapt to deal with zygarde because they can and stretching is no reason to ban a pokemon, unless its totally bottle-necking the whole tier, which Zygarde barely does.
What is so 4mSS about slowbro now, the usual is scald Ice beam toxic and recovery, what is he running, psychic? with all the darks running around?
Physically defensive slowbro counters every set, zygarde simply cannot touch him, setting up on him only nets him an early grave.
Suicune is a great user of ice beam, but everyone's stuck into the one set and refuse to deviate. You've brought up a grand total of 1 set for this thing, I am to assume that outside mono-attacking, suicune is completely and utterly useless?
Rest sets either have less protection than sub sets or suffer from lack of coverage.
Mew can still run knock off, defog and recovery, this is also a pokemon capable of countering every zygarde set.
Mega Blastoise is still capable of countering every set, which is your main complaint about him, no?
Tangrowth usually runs mix, I'll admit that putting HP ice on it is a bit of a stretch, but its adapting to the metagame threats instead of banning everything that isn't 2HKO'd by the only coverage you don't refuse to carry.
I should also mention here that, brongzong while not very popular, completely craps all over zygarde, allowing him ample time to set up dual screens, and then is able to to depense zygarde away with a few HP ice, this also gives other pokemon protection from zygardes boosted attacks, so it has much more checks. If you don't let the metagame evolve every time a new threat appears then it will get stale very fast. There are plenty of ways to deal with zygarde but the only argument I've seen is "Well _____ does not like to run that" or "well dang that's unpopular". Not to say I don't understand the nature of these test bans, I'm not against Zygarde being tested, but I think the only reason he's being perceived as broken is because the community here refuses to bend for any new threats.
My main point is that if Houndoomite is UU, then I don't see a reason why Zygarde should be BL'd
Mega Houndoom is a much bigger threat than Zygarde, and barely has any counters, where zygarde has plenty but the community refuses to use them.
Only a problem because you're unwilling to change move sets, slowbro loves getting healed on zygardes dragon tails, and can continue switching in, even with hazards up on every dragon tail. If slowbro is in, zygarde cannot phase without taking an ice beam, which hurts even the max sp.def sets
Slowbro, Tangrowth, don't care and phase lets slower counters like mega blastoise get an extra hit in, before taking one. Assuming your team isn't a total pushover to hazards, a lot of the times the switch in damage is swiftly countered by whatever recovery item that pokemon may have.
Also things like physically defensive florges completely prevent phase intirely
letting your opponent get up screens or other potentially game shifting hazards is a bad idea.
Edit: Don't think I'm only scraping the bottom of the barrel here, I've only taken the top pokemon in UU. Example: Quagsire also counters -every set- but I don't mention it because its unpopular.
And I'm gonna put this here again. The heck is P.def slowbro running that is so dang important? Ice beam was near staple on this guy, now everyones saying hes got no room for it.
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What was just described here is also essentially "how to counter Dragonite with UU mons", and Dragonite is a top OU threat. Zygarde can be said to be comparable to Dragonite offensively and even arguably defensively (bulk wise). It's a Dragon that does not care about Steels and Fairies, leaving Ice-type Pokemon (rare) and moves as the only viable responses to this thing, and they need reliable recovery if they want to outlast this thing. Most Pokemon start to face 4MSS by running Ice move + recovery (Slowbro, Vaporeon, Suicune) which can weaken their other matchups just to match Zygarde.
Okay, so while you all argue about something that's going to be retested anyways, I'm going to bring in an idea that should be heavily considered by anyone who plays Underused.
We can all agree that the current form of quickly eliminating potentially broken threats and gradually retesting them is an excellent system; it basically gives two looks at a suspect before reaching a verdict, reducing the odds for an erroneous ban. However, I do strongly feel that there's currently a Pokemon that's essentially got this tier by the balls and fits the description of potentially broken and am confused as to why council elected to keep it for a while longer. I'm talking about Suicune.
Suicune | Leftovers
Pressure | Bold
252 HP | 252 Def | 4 SDef
Rest | Sleep Talk / Ice Beam | Scald | Calm Mind
To be fair, it's essentially just one set that makes Suicune one of the top threats in the metagame - its infamous Crocune set - which has been tested and tried since it gained Calm Mind access in ADV. Couple that with the brutish toy it got in BW, Scald, and Suicune can quickly become a defensively offensive behemoth, with very few things being able to put a stop to it. Using the above set, I'll list a few things capable of dealing with, crippling, or flat out beating CroCune. All calculations will be provided separately.
While it's here however, I highly recommend using Crocune. It's an absolute beast and just shits on a ton of things in the current metagame.
We can all agree that the current form of quickly eliminating potentially broken threats and gradually retesting them is an excellent system; it basically gives two looks at a suspect before reaching a verdict, reducing the odds for an erroneous ban. However, I do strongly feel that there's currently a Pokemon that's essentially got this tier by the balls and fits the description of potentially broken and am confused as to why council elected to keep it for a while longer. I'm talking about Suicune.
Suicune | Leftovers
Pressure | Bold
252 HP | 252 Def | 4 SDef
Rest | Sleep Talk / Ice Beam | Scald | Calm Mind
To be fair, it's essentially just one set that makes Suicune one of the top threats in the metagame - its infamous Crocune set - which has been tested and tried since it gained Calm Mind access in ADV. Couple that with the brutish toy it got in BW, Scald, and Suicune can quickly become a defensively offensive behemoth, with very few things being able to put a stop to it. Using the above set, I'll list a few things capable of dealing with, crippling, or flat out beating CroCune. All calculations will be provided separately.
- Tricking a Choice Scarf or Choice Band makes Suicune extremely easier to deal with, and completely beats CroCune. Prevents recovery or boosting, and will usually force it to switch.
- A set-up Swords Dance Weavile can successfully 2HKO Crocune with Knock Off (both pre- and post-item removal) while a +3 Scald guarantees an OHKO post Stealth Rock damage or two turns of Life Orb recoil.
- Taunt works, but it's only temporary, and most things that run it don't like being burned (moreso due to residual damage).
- Bulky Choice Band Guts Heracross can theoretically beat Suicune, but cannot switch in or use Close Combat at the risk of a Speed Tie gone sour. Even though it gets the attack boost from Scald Burns, it'll wear Heracross down faster too.
- Special Attackers, see Mega-Manectric and Raikou, are some of the few things keeping Suicune in check at the moment: both 2HKO CroCune with their Thunderbolts and aren't particularly worried about eating a Scald. However, if Suicune is able to start setting up as they come in and get to +2, it'll be able to Rest up, recover, and eventually beat both Raikou and Mega-Manectric.
- Phazers can keep it at bay, but only for so long. Once Suicune is the last thing alive, they become useless. Haze however, beats CroCune ten times out of ten, but unfortunately is fleetingly rare.
- Grass-types, namely Trevenant, Celebi, and Chesnaught, are threats to Suicune. Chesnaught and Trevenant without Leech Seed are at risk of being beaten by Suicune though, as a Scald burn will prevent them from breaking Suicune (realistically however, this is rare). Celebi faces the same issue that Raikou and Mega-Manectric face too.
- Water Absorb / Storm Drain is always an excelent way of beating Classic CroCune, but Quagsire (who's better off with Unaware now that Weavile exists again) and Gastrodon won't like having to deal with a boosted Ice Beam. Suicune will just set up on either of these Pokemon anyways.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 255-302 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO (These two combined will result in a dead Suicune, unless it Rests up after the first one and gets lucky with a Sleep Talk Scald burn.
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Remember, this move misses a lot!)
+2 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heracross: 163-193 (44.7 - 53%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO (Does enough to prevent Heracross from directly switching in safely.)
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 134-162 (33.1 - 40%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO (At this point neither Mega-Manectric or Raikou are winning. Can throw Celebi into this list too, since Mega-Manectric is stronger.)
+2 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 189-223 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (See above, burn and SR / LO damage seals the deal. Does not apply to Celebi however.)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO (These two combined will result in a dead Suicune, unless it Rests up after the first one and gets lucky with a Sleep Talk Scald burn.
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Remember, this move misses a lot!)
+2 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heracross: 163-193 (44.7 - 53%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO (Does enough to prevent Heracross from directly switching in safely.)
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 134-162 (33.1 - 40%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO (At this point neither Mega-Manectric or Raikou are winning. Can throw Celebi into this list too, since Mega-Manectric is stronger.)
+2 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 189-223 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (See above, burn and SR / LO damage seals the deal. Does not apply to Celebi however.)
While it's here however, I highly recommend using Crocune. It's an absolute beast and just shits on a ton of things in the current metagame.
Nasty Plot Celebi and Swords Dance Jolly LO Toxicroak is what I use to beat Suicune, as they can beat both Crocune and offensive LO Cune (Toxicroak takes a ton from +1 LO Ice Beam though, and loses to Extrasensory). Strong Electrics and Grasses such as Shaymin, Mega Ampharos, Mega Manectric, Raikou, and Shaymin can also lay heavy pressure on Suicune, even after 1 Calm Mind, as do miscellaneous threats like Swords Dance Guts Heracross. In any case, I'm surprised people haven't caught on much to the Suicune rage, as it is still one of the best UU Pokemon available, using its huge bulk to check threats like Darmanitan while serving as a solid win condition throughout any point of the game.
I think Suicine isn't considered broken (in my opinion) because it is just another bulky water that happens to hit hard after setting up. This is unlike Mega Blastoise which can immediately dish out a pretty hard hit. Suicine also lacks utility. I am aware that utility does not make a pokemon more or less viable, but what it does is make a pokemon more predictable. For example, if a team is comprised of both Mew and Blastoise, one has to guess whether Mew is the defogger or Blastoise is the Defensive/Offensive Rapid Spinner. When faced with Suicine, there are only a very, very select few of sets. These sets, in no particular order of effectiveness, are RestRoar, CM 3 attacks, and Rest Calm mind. The latter two are rather easy to deal with, seeing as Suicine loses to any Grass Type that has any offensive presence, namely Shaymin, Roserade, Virizion, and Celebi. CM 3 Attacks is tanky, yes, but I do not believe it is any better than Mega Blastoise. The Rest, Sleep Talk, Scald, and Calm Mind is infamous for outright sweeping teams.
The issue is how easy it is for Suicine to set up, but this is not in the same fashion as SubCoil Zygarde. Zygarde has an arguably better typing than Suicine offensively, meaning it can actually hurt its checks and "counters," such as Florges, Mega Aggron, and Gligar. Suicine; however, cannot hurt its checks or counters, sometimes not even at all. A few grass types often have Natural Cure or carry a Lum Berry, examples being Roserade and Swords Dance Virizion. Suicine is also a bulky water. Unlike Zygarde, Bulky waters have many checks and counters, from Raikou, Banded Heracross, to Roserade, Shaymin, to even Trick Slowbro. This means many teams have at least 1 water check and/or counter. For example, I run both a Manetric and a ScarfTini (Bolt Strike) to deal with water types. I also run HP Grass on Manetric because Water/Ground and Water types are so prominent. Due to the sheer number of water types, I feel I am at a great disadvantage when I am not running HP Grass to hit Water/Ground types.
How this is different from Zygarde is I do not want to run Ice Beam or HP Ice on a Mon specifically for Zygarde, not because it is not a threat, but because there are few threatening dragons lurking in UU.
Make no mistake, Suicine is a force to be scared of. I find myself relying on it too much. I just lost a battle against a guy who had Toxicroak AND Gastrodon on the same team, thus neutering my Suicine. I; however, do not think Suicine is broken in the slightest, but rather, just an effective pivot for any type of team. It walls and hurts a lot of the tier, but a sizable chunk of Suicine Counters are quite good--even if the opposing team does not have a Suicine. Therefore, one is not forced to run checks/counters specifically for Suicine, but for all water types, making the checks to Suicine worth using no matter what.
The issue is how easy it is for Suicine to set up, but this is not in the same fashion as SubCoil Zygarde. Zygarde has an arguably better typing than Suicine offensively, meaning it can actually hurt its checks and "counters," such as Florges, Mega Aggron, and Gligar. Suicine; however, cannot hurt its checks or counters, sometimes not even at all. A few grass types often have Natural Cure or carry a Lum Berry, examples being Roserade and Swords Dance Virizion. Suicine is also a bulky water. Unlike Zygarde, Bulky waters have many checks and counters, from Raikou, Banded Heracross, to Roserade, Shaymin, to even Trick Slowbro. This means many teams have at least 1 water check and/or counter. For example, I run both a Manetric and a ScarfTini (Bolt Strike) to deal with water types. I also run HP Grass on Manetric because Water/Ground and Water types are so prominent. Due to the sheer number of water types, I feel I am at a great disadvantage when I am not running HP Grass to hit Water/Ground types.
How this is different from Zygarde is I do not want to run Ice Beam or HP Ice on a Mon specifically for Zygarde, not because it is not a threat, but because there are few threatening dragons lurking in UU.
Make no mistake, Suicine is a force to be scared of. I find myself relying on it too much. I just lost a battle against a guy who had Toxicroak AND Gastrodon on the same team, thus neutering my Suicine. I; however, do not think Suicine is broken in the slightest, but rather, just an effective pivot for any type of team. It walls and hurts a lot of the tier, but a sizable chunk of Suicine Counters are quite good--even if the opposing team does not have a Suicine. Therefore, one is not forced to run checks/counters specifically for Suicine, but for all water types, making the checks to Suicine worth using no matter what.
Minor nitpick, but actually, if I remember correctly, like 12% of Cresselia run Ice Beam. Other than that, you're right. Also, nice to see you on Smogon and not just PS!, like you usually are.
Why would Flygon even stay in on Slowbro given the chance at burn from Scald? The problem with Ice Beam really is that the mons you mentioned tend to be rather defensively oriented and aside from Zygarde would not exactly be hitting very much relevant threats as they are not 2 OHKO's due to their lack of investment. Moreover, many of the mons you mention have better moves to run that actually hit more threats in the metagame or tend to be redundant in hitting the same threats - e.g. Nidoking/Queen - but with a non-STAB move that may leave the opponent at gaining momentum.
That said given Zygarde is not being retested yet I think it is better to focus discussion on other pokemon since the metagame is likely to change with possible reintroductions.
re: zygarde - stop it. the ones arguing its not broken because i has counters are listing shitty checks as counters (they'll never outlast zygarde and at best force it out to come in later and try again over and over until the check dies). the ones arguing against them are either overplaying how broken it is because even i'm not convinced its /truly/ broken, but definitely potentially broken. plus you're all kinda wasting your time. have this argument when we retest it in a month or so. i'm working the order so that we try to test shit that checks other shit before testing the latter shit. if that makes no sense to you, then oh well.
next person to post "oml zygarde isn't broken" or "oml yes it is" gets infracted, savvy?
re: Mazz, suicune: my thing with cune is that it cant fulfill both its defensive duties and offensive ones with a high degree of success simultaneously. in other words, its super easy to pressure it with high powered attacks, u-turns from fire-types/steels.
not to mention i can name like 8 checks/counters off the top of my head lol: np/sd celebi, shaymin, LO roserade, taunt mew, crit kingdra, leech seed chesnaught (with seeds, wood hammer 3HKOs with like 100 atk EVs while burned), cm raikou, cm slowbro, cb/sd heracross, bu/sd toxicroak, roar vap wins every scenario except last-mon standing, then there's pretty much anything that can 3HKO it on the physical side--just switch it in on the rest and attack it three times it'll die (chance of them getting off a scald /and/ burning with sleep talk = 11% each time, 1% over chance to freeze *-*).
tbh i think limitless and co are way overhyping cune. yeah its the first time it gets scald + good sleep mechanics, but it still has the same problem it always did--too easy to pressure because it lacks immediate recovery and firepower. you're better off with slowbro 8 times out of 10 tbh.
next person to post "oml zygarde isn't broken" or "oml yes it is" gets infracted, savvy?
re: Mazz, suicune: my thing with cune is that it cant fulfill both its defensive duties and offensive ones with a high degree of success simultaneously. in other words, its super easy to pressure it with high powered attacks, u-turns from fire-types/steels.
not to mention i can name like 8 checks/counters off the top of my head lol: np/sd celebi, shaymin, LO roserade, taunt mew, crit kingdra, leech seed chesnaught (with seeds, wood hammer 3HKOs with like 100 atk EVs while burned), cm raikou, cm slowbro, cb/sd heracross, bu/sd toxicroak, roar vap wins every scenario except last-mon standing, then there's pretty much anything that can 3HKO it on the physical side--just switch it in on the rest and attack it three times it'll die (chance of them getting off a scald /and/ burning with sleep talk = 11% each time, 1% over chance to freeze *-*).
tbh i think limitless and co are way overhyping cune. yeah its the first time it gets scald + good sleep mechanics, but it still has the same problem it always did--too easy to pressure because it lacks immediate recovery and firepower. you're better off with slowbro 8 times out of 10 tbh.
so far, it's rocking, but not overpowered imo. his knock off is massively powerful, but it's very frail and has a lot of exploitable weakness. steel types that have acceptable defense and aren't psychic are good checks to it, as well as some bulky waters.
i ran thick fat assault vest hariyama for some relative success, countering kyurem, weavile and mega houndoom.
i ran thick fat assault vest hariyama for some relative success, countering kyurem, weavile and mega houndoom.
Ya I agree, Weavile can also be used as a great unexpected trapper with all the switches it causes.
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